Post An8ogf4sJNi94bCoy0 by limpr@ruhr.social
(DIR) More posts by limpr@ruhr.social
(DIR) Post #An8352inGCeNYNRBmS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:07:52Z
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If you got to pick a computer model and OS for middle school students what would you pick?I understand some of the reasons SO many schools choose chromebooks. Low cost, durability.. Drop a macbook it might break. The chromebook works just as well before and after being dropped. Which is to say they work like they have been dropped right out of the box. Touch pads are unresponsive, touch screen is annoying. I kind of loathe them. But, designing computers for children isn't glamourous.
(DIR) Post #An83MhFvo7C2BxM6Jk by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:11:03Z
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Designing computers for children ought to be glamours. You will shape a generation. It's not fun, or easy at all. Frankly, even more than the software the poor quality of the touch pad, and the jitteriness and hypersensitivity of the touch screens on most models made for school markets are making a whole generation hate laptops. And when young people hate laptops they become phone only computer users. It's a dead end.
(DIR) Post #An83SGbToUQHGh5gIq by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:12:04Z
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Say mean things about Apple all you want, their input devices have never caused me to notice them. And that is *success* I have never thought about the touch pad on my laptops ONCE.
(DIR) Post #An83ZqFlfOJxrSXyiG by jajo@mastodon.nu
2024-10-18T11:13:24Z
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@futurebird My kids are now out of school. They have been using Chromebooks since day 1. There has been some small issues with durability, but nothing severe. One thing that they could improve is the battery. It fails sometimes and is really annoying,
(DIR) Post #An83dBAGNLuhaKZ0N6 by scobiform@fedi.freakshit.org
2024-10-18T11:14:00Z
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@futurebird Lenovo with some Debian distro. You can get them pretty cheap if you buy in bulk. Refurbished!
(DIR) Post #An83ifB4DQZw7HYRpQ by otte_homan@theblower.au
2024-10-18T11:14:58Z
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@futurebird my view is that yes, kids should learn about computers - I did that in about year 7 (first year high school), in about 1981 or so. I don't see the need nor the benefit of having them lug laptops/macbooks/chromebooks to primary school. Our local primary school introduced BYOD policies when my kids were there, and we fiercely objected and protested and refused to get them a device. We noted afterwards that collectively, the 3 Rs (Reading, wRiting and aRithmatic) in the year group declined measurably over the 3 or so years that BYOD devices were being introduced. There were near infinite number of promises from the school on what they were going to do with it, many "latest craze" things were tried and most of them were canned again after a year because "no that didnt turn out the way we expected" etc. My view is that in primary school kids need to learn to write, read, maths, socialize, move, exercise, etc. Laptops etc are not going to help with that.
(DIR) Post #An83peXiyOz2AwU9lA by discoursology@social.coop
2024-10-18T11:16:15Z
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@futurebird unfortunately in Germany most schools have the kids work with iPads straight off. So many terrible implications…
(DIR) Post #An83uhaN5W513n8BqC by phryk@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T11:17:06Z
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@futurebird Are computer pools in schools not a thing anymore or are those supposed to be devices students carry with them?In that case, I'd probably just take second-hand business laptops of good make – same decision I've made for myself for decades.Not really sure what a good option is since Thinkpads went down dramatically in quality, but i know that there are HP Elitebooks that are really nicely maintainable and sturdy, but I'm not sure if the entire series is like that.
(DIR) Post #An83vtt2q0zDV8R9Dk by kevinriggle@ioc.exchange
2024-10-18T11:17:16Z
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@futurebird Apple has long understood that the computer is a tool and not an end in itself and like any good tool should disappear into its use and become an extension of your hands. “A bicycle for the mind” was how Jobs put it. And not for nothing but they were long big in the education market for precisely the reason of wanting to shape the next generation’s expectations
(DIR) Post #An842I91Yr44TMxV6e by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:18:34Z
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@discoursology I'm so glad this idea was rejected at our school. They need to type! And those keyboard cases are NOT the same. But worse, understanding the file system on an iPad is challenging for *me* it's designed to make you not think about it. I know I sound like an old lady but the youths need to know where their files are!
(DIR) Post #An84Al4vrwjmWi597I by pbloem@sigmoid.social
2024-10-18T11:19:56Z
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@futurebird Did you follow the OLPC project at the time? It was (among nerds) quite a hopeful project with a lot of driven people trying to make it work.Then Microsoft stuck their grubby fingers in, and it all sort of came apart. But for a brief time, a huge amount of effort was concentrated on building a really good, cheap laptop for children.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO
(DIR) Post #An84Bvn3WqoU2PHOt6 by holsta@helvede.net
2024-10-18T11:20:12Z
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@futurebird I would go for certain versions of Thinkpads (they're not all great) -- the X395 / X13 has held up nicely for years. Even refurbished options would work.You can install Windows, Linux, OpenBSD, etc as you please.
(DIR) Post #An84NcTz8jLBdCvuJk by orangelantern@froggie.gay
2024-10-18T11:19:08.202Z
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@futurebird@sauropods.win They had a laptop design once that was perfect for school use. Incredibly robust, fun to look at and well-designed overall (apart from the charging cable which was its weak point).I basically wept as they discarded the design in favor of the flimsy slim nonsense. Why tf would I want to put my laptop in an envelope? My old tangerine iBook survived all kinds of treks, festivals, bumps, falls and whatnot in my backback and the outdoors. One time it got doused in beer and all that was needed to have it run again was a replacement keyboard. Try this with one of these fragile tablet-wannabes.I really loved that it had some heft to it too. Man, that was a good design.Genius and madness certainly are close by at Apple. It just seems that madness gets to decide more often than not.
(DIR) Post #An84eFFQmNIiUd3LGq by albertcardona@mathstodon.xyz
2024-10-18T11:25:22Z
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@futurebird Something middle school students can disassemble, tune, customize and fix on the cheap. Perhaps the FrameWork laptop @frameworkcomputer will get there when e.g., old models become dirt cheap. They need a version to costs less than $300, doesn't matter if it only has 8 GB of RAM and a 5-year-old CPU – those were incredible specs only 10 years ago.
(DIR) Post #An84flDvNbwtxB4SyO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:25:43Z
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@pbloem Yes! I remember this. There was so much thoughtful work on this project... then it vanished off my radar.
(DIR) Post #An84srDIQ9vGIN1QjA by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:28:05Z
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@futurebird I think phone-only users is what google wants, and I think that desire guides the design of chromebooks.
(DIR) Post #An84u46Tyu2IYxPY1I by jannem@fosstodon.org
2024-10-18T11:28:06Z
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@futurebird Don't underestimate the ability to have fleet management of Chromebooks, even by people who aren't full-time system administrators. Most schools wouldn't have the in-house skill or funds to hire a real IT department to handle a "real" laptop deployment (whether MacOS, Windows or a Linux flavor).Another bonus is the ability to swap out a broken unit with a new one without losing any data.
(DIR) Post #An85SxP2sz6LutjPkm by silvermoon82@wandering.shop
2024-10-18T11:34:34Z
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@futurebird @pbloem It was actually super successful for a while! I can't find it back now, but some people involved in the project were talking about it recently. Part of why it disappeared is parents started using them at night. They were talking produce prices, things like that, started to improve their situation. It couldn't be allowed.
(DIR) Post #An85b4pLAQ0bG6u14a by jannem@fosstodon.org
2024-10-18T11:36:03Z
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@futurebird The Touch Bar wasn't exactly a roaring success. And my wife got so fed up with the mouse that can't be used while charging that she's now just using a third party wired mouse instead.
(DIR) Post #An85kVdWrL9p0ssLNg by Molondrongo@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T11:37:45Z
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@futurebird @discoursology Most mobile devices work a little like this. I have been using Android for years now and the file system seems to be intentionally convoluted in modern devices, with every app creating their own directory tree rooted wherever the hell they want. There is no easy, straightforward way to download a podcast from your aggregator and then playing it with VLC, for instance. I don't know where the hell is anything anymore.
(DIR) Post #An85rKvv3KCtqPjVGy by discoursology@social.coop
2024-10-18T11:38:59Z
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@futurebird exactly exactly exactly!
(DIR) Post #An86qgcH38lMl3nWmO by DamonWakes@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-10-18T11:47:12Z
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@Molondrongo @futurebird @discoursology I find this even on GrapheneOS, which is generally great. When I open the Files app, there's a sidebar item called "Documents." Is that the "Documents" directory on my phone? Nope! Does it show me all my document-type files in one place? Also nope! How does it decide what should be in there? Nobody knows!
(DIR) Post #An87Ro708zYWigs3dI by mhoye@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T11:55:10Z
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@pbloem @futurebird That's a charitable retelling of the OLPC story. The real flaw of the OLPC, beyond that staggeringly awful, RSI-in-a-box keyboard, was that it was built without input from the people it was intended for, which ended up playing out as a kind of weird rich-nerd colonialism rather than a real learning tool. It wasn't "microsoft sticking its fingers" in it; a lot of the “hacking” those things got was “installing Windows so people could learn market-relevant skills”.
(DIR) Post #An87VVkyKYb2wyKiEC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T11:57:28Z
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@mhoye @pbloem "without input from the people it was intended for"Worth repeating.
(DIR) Post #An881xEFizv3Q8UzZ2 by kendraserra@dair-community.social
2024-10-18T12:03:18Z
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@futurebird @mhoye @pbloem if folks are interested in this story, I highly highly recommend The Charisma Machine, Morgan Ames's book about OLPC. https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537445/the-charisma-machine/
(DIR) Post #An88V7FVY5CmtazWXA by mhoye@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T12:08:35Z
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@futurebird @pbloem There were some good-in-the-abstract ideas in those things, for sure. Mesh networking, that magic screen, and the SugarOS people are still kicking around - https://www.sugarlabs.org/press/ - but none of those things were connected to anything you might call an uplifting economic opportunity for the communities receiving them, or addressing a felt need those communities had expressed.
(DIR) Post #An88kZ2AWllJPe7OkK by ajsadauskas@social.vivaldi.net
2024-10-18T12:11:11Z
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@futurebird Not an education expert by any stretch, and I recognise this answer is coloured by my own nostalgia.But I think a decent case could be made for something like the 8 Bit Guy's Commander X16 system https://www.commanderx16.com/, the Fornix 256 https://c256foenix.com, or the Raspberry Pi 400 https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/.Basically, a modernised version of a C64, with access to the command line and the ability to program the machine directly.But then also access to a GUI environment for file management, a web browser, word processor, graphics tools, etc.And, perhaps most importantly if you want kids to engage with it, games.
(DIR) Post #An8AJ9XPPgiSQYmtma by billiglarper@rollenspiel.social
2024-10-18T12:28:51Z
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@futurebird @discoursology Imho, the iPad is designed to take control away from users, and concentrate it at Apple. It's pretty much impossible to install your own software. You can't even copy your files from or to an USB stick.And so on. It's the opposite of empowering your students.The hardware is no better than other tablets *in that price range*.They are imho popular because they are easy to set-up and admin for non IT people: They are teacher friendly.
(DIR) Post #An8BtBy9wzYULc35Jg by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2024-10-18T12:46:33Z
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@futurebird Whenever I'm faced with an Apple device of any type, I invariably find myself staring at it with a dumb look thinking "how the FUCK do I interact with this?" Nothing about them is remotely intuitive. Keyboards don't have the keys I expect. Touchpads are always too slow, requiring one to gesture like an Italian to make anything happen. The mice are just weird. Republican weird.
(DIR) Post #An8FIDWDcvUOFrbWHQ by r343l@freeradical.zone
2024-10-18T13:24:41Z
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@futurebird @discoursology Our school went to devices in 2020 for remote school and our kiddo in kindergarten got an ipad (with a plastic case!). But the kids 3rd grade and up got chunky pretty physically robust Windows laptops which is what she has now, though it doesn't come home often now.
(DIR) Post #An8GC49FeXltPSUZlY by MtnSunTrees@mstdn.party
2024-10-18T13:34:47Z
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@futurebird @discoursology I thought it was just me who couldn’t find my iPad files!
(DIR) Post #An8IBkwfFVULlEaJN2 by memory@m.blank.org
2024-10-18T13:57:08Z
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@futurebird it’s honestly a frankly crappy landscape right now. Everything you have noted about Chromebooks is correct. MacBooks are great but you pay $$$$$ for that hardware quality. I miss Apple’s old plastic iBook models: they really were designed with students in mind.I eventually got my middle schooler an iPad Air and a folio keyboard but there are trade offs: nobody tests school apps on iPads, so we kept running into issues with DeltaMath.
(DIR) Post #An8dC3hBdMBYx3KYgS by jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
2024-10-18T17:52:29Z
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@futurebird Did you ever use the circular iMac mouse? It was ridiculous.
(DIR) Post #An8jOTwWTKCNYXoLZo by barrygoldman1@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T19:02:00Z
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@futurebird bicycle
(DIR) Post #An8npSWoEuqcntu2zY by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T12:14:16Z
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@Molondrongo @futurebird @discoursology if users can't figure out where their files are, they can't switch to an alternative app, can't protect themselves against the app deleting, modifying, or moving their files. Location obfuscation enables companies to have all the benefits of widely used interoperable file formats, but prevents users from using said benefits in ways which might not benefit the company. Whenever you see "intuitive", think about how that concept is used to manipulate people.
(DIR) Post #An8nvpAoxQxem5eZ3g by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T19:52:50Z
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@billiglarper @discoursology The pencil is such a god like input device. I have one but I just use it like a big writing tablet. and for games.
(DIR) Post #An8ogf4sJNi94bCoy0 by limpr@ruhr.social
2024-10-18T20:01:17Z
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@futurebird my kids have been working with school iPads for years now, and I don't think they know what a file is.
(DIR) Post #An8pAgsWBIC7LTkFDU by Catfish_Man@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T20:06:42Z
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@futurebird one bit of complexity that's often overlooked is that “discover which other apps are installed" is both a surprisingly effective way to build a unique advertising identifier for a device, and a surprisingly effective way to detect gay people in places where that's illegal :(Adding entropy to certain filesystem paths is one of several possible layers of mitigations
(DIR) Post #An8pPKhauiySuXcLFg by alloydflanagan@me.dm
2024-10-18T20:09:20Z
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@futurebird love my iPad. i can’t imagine trying to use it as my main or only computer. And for kids? Ridiculous.
(DIR) Post #An8vD6pfFtGS90wkgC by leo@60228.dev
2024-10-18T21:14:23Z
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@futurebird still better than android, where apps can only access the filesystem directly if they get a special exemption from Google and otherwise need to go through a generic abstraction lauer over "documents"
(DIR) Post #An8wbvZUMNoGPfmLJY by B_Whitewind@regenerate.social
2024-10-18T21:30:05Z
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@futurebird Promise you their text-to-speech works and I promise you Android's never ever will.I've always hated Apple but you know if I got to give them $100 for a phone cable so be it. At least it works.
(DIR) Post #An8zup86pkP3ncfrOa by SmartmanApps@dotnet.social
2024-10-18T22:07:05Z
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@futurebird I've taught Computer Science where some students had Apple devices, and the whole experience was horrible, especially the iPads. We ended up telling parents they were no longer allowed for Computer Science. They're just not designed for power-users - they're locked down against users changing much at all really. Couldn't even do something basic like write a HTML file in a text editor then display it in your local browser (restrictions on renaming from .txt to .html, etc.).
(DIR) Post #An94P3vUmhYWC6RsH2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-18T22:57:24Z
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@leo @easrng The horror of applications that just have one save file for each user, and you can only see the "files" inside of the app... and the save files is like... half of a database and bunch of images stored as huge text blocks...Disgusting.
(DIR) Post #An95TlqtVlPjXY6bK4 by JamesWidman@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T23:09:27Z
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@futurebird @discoursology *yes*!for this reason, i feel like there ought to be some use of machines that have visual/audible/tactile feedback for the storage devices. like... maybe not an apple II (because we do want to be able to run modern software, and that requires minimum hardware requirements in the ballpark of the current gen raspberry pi), but...
(DIR) Post #An98muX9l025pXgvtg by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-10-18T21:40:45.995879Z
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@Molondrongo @futurebird @discoursology i'd consider the opacity of the file system to be a major security problem when the devices are returned and staff can't sort things out and ready them for the next class
(DIR) Post #An98tkZzAKEGz6HBAm by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-10-18T22:00:35.481023Z
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@bjc @orangelantern @futurebird pretty sure that particular example counts as the "madness" that the post you're replying describesi think (between this and someone complaining about Discourse reinventing the wheel) we're at this awful stage of tech where most things are actually pretty much mature tech but all industry is dominated by regressive pinheads who can't learn or adapt but only know from the 90s and oughts (i.e., the times that gave us such dreadful nonsense like "Moore's Law") that "innovation" = good so now all we get is the "innovation" of things being done poorly, awkwardly and wrong
(DIR) Post #An98yrdUMCO4JlLx8y by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-10-18T21:23:33.738313Z
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@futurebird EeePC but with an updated processor and RAM with Puppy Linux?(i am, for reasons of extreme personal bias, assuming a very free-range-child pedogogical paradigm)
(DIR) Post #An990mjzWnIRiOJKIi by apophis@brain.worm.pink
2024-10-18T21:41:43.517505Z
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@llewelly > Whenever you see "intuitive", think about how that concept is used to manipulate people.boosting this twice, once normally and once with a quotepost like one of those tumblr reblogs that takes that one line and puts it in <h1>
(DIR) Post #AnACorHVPkt3ITVzkG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-19T12:06:25Z
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Oh... and when I say "say mean things about Apple all you want" I mean that, please do say the mean things. Their laptops are nice, though, and so are the input devices, especially if your boss buys them for you. I'm very happy with me and my HS students learning about unix and getting things done on these machines.
(DIR) Post #AnACuUMBYn03w3O9zc by bitzero@corteximplant.net
2024-10-18T14:48:33.157946Z
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@ajsadauskas @futurebird The Pi 400 is a perfect example of a computer kids can use to learn computing stuff. It’s the home computing model, but technologically more advanced. The Pi approach is also good to teach kids what’s inside a pc and why. And to handle an OS that isn’t completely focused on making its users dumber. Problem is, is anyone still interested in learning this stuff at kids’ age? This, I don’t know.
(DIR) Post #AnACuVnADyAsO11DgO by plasmawiz@corteximplant.net
2024-10-18T15:24:10.101944Z
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@bitzero @ajsadauskas @futurebird I am quite outspoken about this but: I believe part of the crisis we see with tech literacy is, in part, companies deliberately keeping users in the dark (as to how their devices work) to continue the patten of uninformed purchases and indifference to default settings. I know it sounds conspiratorial but I have seen too much of this shit.
(DIR) Post #AnACuWiamS6zG7t5CC by bitzero@corteximplant.net
2024-10-18T15:51:54.812785Z
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@plasmawiz @ajsadauskas @futurebird I agree completely with you. I tooted about it in the past, sounding even more conspiratorial. It’s ok. Knowing tech means having action on it, at least a bit. Uninformed users can be exploited more easily and don’t really know what’s happening to them and to their data. I think people should be radicalized about all this, but I also know that’s a lost cause… now. In the future, it will be different. That’s also why kids should learn the basics of what’s behind the magical digital services we all use.
(DIR) Post #AnACuXnalLhmbvEacy by ajsadauskas@social.vivaldi.net
2024-10-19T05:51:05Z
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@bitzero @plasmawiz @futurebird The other thing along these lines that could be useful is to give them something like a Neocities account: https://neocities.orgShow them how to create a website about something that interests them by writing web pages is basic HTML.They'll know how to put a webpage up with no ads, no evil monopolistic tech company rent seeking or hoarding private data.
(DIR) Post #AnAD178aHtKTwtBbM0 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-19T12:08:38Z
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@ajsadauskas @bitzero @plasmawiz This is neat. I wonder how long it will last...(We have an osx server for the computer club where they make webpages that can only be viewed on the school wifi ... which spans a few buildings and is pretty cool... although I have not gotten FTP to work yet... ugh.)
(DIR) Post #AnADd7wLkf1zRUac1A by nblr@chaos.social
2024-10-19T12:15:28Z
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@futurebird That's one of the things I really like about the OS. My first computer was a C64 and besides popping in game cartridges or disks there was this blinking ⬜. It asked for something to be typed in. A command. Maybe more than just LOAD "*",8,1.Having a computer with a console you can type in stuff that it then executes gives its users agency. Instead of just Basic we now have a variety of language options to choose from. But first and foremost, we have this door. The blinking "_".
(DIR) Post #AnAESjGqiVDbzRmebQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-10-19T12:24:50Z
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I think the solution is for Apple to just start making plastic laptops again like the old clam shells in candy colors. A few people have suggested this and it just clicks. But Apple seems to no longer care about their image of being "the education computers"
(DIR) Post #AnAEYcyl1SDYDK8NDU by dayglojago@mstdn.party
2024-10-19T12:25:51Z
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@futurebird Apple is, first and foremost, the iPhone company now
(DIR) Post #AnAEnXnOZlkQTwvrQe by pdcawley@mendeddrum.org
2024-10-19T12:28:28Z
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@futurebird I fear that they wouldn't be able to square a plastic mac with their sustainability commmitments too.
(DIR) Post #AnAFLO9wuSNqRRcUrI by mhoye@mastodon.social
2024-10-19T12:34:40Z
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@futurebird Chromebooks dominate that space, and have for years. Unfortunately, because they come with a whole suite of office and education-management tools built in, they're pretty thoroughly locked in.
(DIR) Post #AnAHHfpbSpWQ03SYZk by FeralRobots@mastodon.social
2024-10-19T12:56:24Z
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@futurebird @leo @easrng Back in the Newton era I heard someone describe that approach as "data soup".
(DIR) Post #AnALNG9kEhN1vLndjM by toerror@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-10-19T13:42:16Z
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@futurebird I was thinking about how a lot of kids are moving away from computers now. I think a lot of the problem is that they're now so ubiquitous the novelty and escape that they presented in the past no longer exists. And in a way, I wonder if this isn't an entirely bad thing; The 'learn to code' rhetoric could only ever work for a fraction of the population, and if AI comes along and wrecks the information economy, it might help for many to diversify.
(DIR) Post #AnARQE7Qrn4kCPW3l2 by Dave3307@beige.party
2024-10-19T14:50:01Z
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@futurebird the way Apple gave away the music streaming business should be studied in business schools. Spotify has billions in revenue that iTunes just fumbled away
(DIR) Post #AnAY2QImcNP8iIQEIS by bk1e@mastodon.social
2024-10-19T16:04:09Z
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@futurebird I know someone who dropped a Chromebook while it was plugged into a USB-C charger, and it did not keep working (broke the USB-C port). Something like MagSafe would help a lot. After the laptop was repaired/replaced, they started using a magnetic USB-C adapter they bought on Amazon.
(DIR) Post #AnB8TWBYRrCT84GBmq by mattcen@aus.social
2024-10-19T22:52:24Z
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@futurebird @discoursology I run weekend camps teaching kids how to make basic websites, and they, especially those still in primary/grade school, really struggle with typing and mouse dexterity, and we specifically run an early session on file system hierarchy, presumably because they're so used to tablets with different input devices and file metaphors.There's at *least* a whole blog post in this.
(DIR) Post #AnBup58IVNonOj5JWC by nazokiyoubinbou@urusai.social
2024-10-20T07:54:09Z
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@futurebird The thing is, you can always do better for the same value compared to Apple products and continuing to buy into them only supports their various negative stances such as iron-grip control over what you're even allowed to do with what you paid for with walled gardens that overcharge and etc.And yes, that counts for "free." Someone paid for it. A company or, worse, taxpayer funds. They could be paying half as much and getting twice the value, but Apple was prettier and looked easier on the surface beyond which no one looked.And I'm going to get a bunch of posts fussing at me because they also amass a toxic fanboy following even though ultimately they're just another corporation looking to make a buck at their customers' expense.