Post An7gR2cI2738eYurLs by interfluidity@zirk.us
(DIR) More posts by interfluidity@zirk.us
(DIR) Post #An7QoYIGpGkmI9k0fo by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T03:59:09Z
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i hate to screenshot the bad place and its pimmp. but… is this legal? https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1847115389676740899
(DIR) Post #An7Rgaq7ZmLHpFLLX6 by rexi@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T04:08:46Z
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@interfluidity the question of exactly how and from what funds they are paid may constitute a FEC violation
(DIR) Post #An7SlczN73AFtRdPwu by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T04:21:01Z
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@interfluidity I can't imagine how it would break the law. It's not so different than a sandwich shop harvesting and selling your data for every 12th sub free.
(DIR) Post #An7UWy4OeS9Aq77eRU by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T04:40:48Z
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@louis it is very different. it’s explicitly targeting only voters, not customers, immediately before a critical, contested election, with a payout from a person who openly advocates particular candidates. there’s deniability — it’s not explicitly requesting a particular vote — but it’s really, really close. even if it were, one point of a secret ballot is to make such agreements difficult to enforce. that doesn’t mean they’re lawful as gentlemen’s agreements or ingratiations.
(DIR) Post #An7UkG7OrK9ia2rgWW by mattlehrer@definitely.social
2024-10-18T04:43:11Z
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@interfluidity slate says “appears to have finally crossed the line” https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/10/elon-musk-2024-election-bribing-voters-trump.html
(DIR) Post #An7UtksBsoxmZRHM5g by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T04:44:54Z
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@interfluidity Sounds to me like they're harvesting your contact info to send you biased election mail, which is all protected speech. It's not any different than if Planned Parenthood offered free T-shirts for joining their mailing list.If there was *anything* intimating a quid-pro-quo for the $100, I'd agree with you. But paying people directly for their contact info instead of buying it in a backroom from a shady advertiser actually strikes me as shockingly honest.
(DIR) Post #An7Y82UTTiYD7vglAu by darwinwoodka@mastodon.social
2024-10-18T05:21:05Z
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@interfluidity No
(DIR) Post #An7bMSV9rmPRiPZlOy by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T05:25:43Z
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@mattlehrer @interfluidity Yeah, but that article is for something else entirely, and it mentions that what's described in the OP is, in fact, legal.
(DIR) Post #An7bMThFQJfrQCEvsu by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T05:57:18Z
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@louis @mattlehrer I don’t think any of us or a Slate author can resolve this. Musk is intentionally parsing the law to walk as close to the line of vote buying as he can without quite doing it. Perhaps Musk has consulted his expensive lawyers, and there is a strong legal history of similar operations that courts have found acceptable. Or, it wouldn’t be out of character for him to just risk it. An assumption that impunity can be purchased has worked for him.
(DIR) Post #An7bowkT0DytdIJvRg by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:02:28Z
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@louis @mattlehrer I think it’s quite obviously an attempt to outright pay people with particular views to vote and vote in particular ways, even the quid-pro-quo is not enforceable. I hope his balls-first approach results in a well deserved crushing. You could make a chills free speech argument against, but money-as-free-speech, especially in an electoral context, has always been a terrible idea. I’d risk that slippery slope.
(DIR) Post #An7c49btSuRBrmYtVI by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:05:13Z
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@louis if you give me $100 and i know what you want me to do, and i’m open to what you want me to do, i don’t think it’s horrible, then i’ll do it. you will too. we don’t need an enforceable contract. not because we are corrupt, but on the contrary, because we are honest people who believe in and aspire to reciprocity. 1/
(DIR) Post #An7cH2b8qbaVspM4lE by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:07:32Z
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@louis you’ve invented this motivation of harvesting contact information. that’s bullshit. contact information is much, much cheaper than this. and it’s not “more honest” to pay the voter rather than a broker. it creates a sense of obligation under norms of reciprocity, which a third party spying on you much more cheaply would not. that’s the only thing Musk is plausibly paying for. /fin
(DIR) Post #An7cbFMF7JBHFT1Mzw by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:11:11Z
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@interfluidity They would necessarily *have* to collect contact info to process the payments, so it seems pretty reasonable. On the other hand, you're completely reading the buying votes thing from subtext; there's nothing in there about voting except that only registered voters qualify.Also, while shitty contact info is indeed cheap, curated contact info for knowingly sympathetic individuals who may be open to targeted persuasion is far more valuable.
(DIR) Post #An7cpG8T1PVRiOG8fo by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:13:43Z
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@interfluidity @mattlehrer The slippery slope isn't "maybe we'll slip into getting money out of politics".It's "maybe we'll slip into allowing the censorious right to shut down get-out-the-vote efforts in swing states, further suppressing liberal voters, by claiming they're 'vote buying' because we lowered the standards to a subjective level of vibes."
(DIR) Post #An7dOtem4itkQHMdDU by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:20:10Z
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@louis come on. $100 per voter is crazy money for contact info, and surveillance brokers have gotten pretty good.do you seriously not share the inference that engendering a sense of reciprocity will provoke some marginal voters to vote who might otherwise have stayed in their butts? are you going to tell me it’s plausible that expensive, high quality contact info is the sole intended motivation and any other effect would be a well-golly unanticipated consequence?
(DIR) Post #An7e8U6TPiDMUY3ejo by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:28:25Z
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@louis @mattlehrer red states already do shutdown GOTV efforts — see Florida — and legit GOTV efforts look nothing like paying registered voters for anything, or paying people to become registered voters. i’m fine prohibiting ice cream conditional on “I voted.” stickers. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/politics-elections/2024/07/08/florida-voter-registration-law-has-major-impact
(DIR) Post #An7eDBZFkz8uS4lFUu by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:29:11Z
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@interfluidity Yeah, I don't think anyone will feel obligated to any more reciprocity to Elon than they would if their bank errored $100 in their favor. Are there some people in our society who would feel the need to reciprocate / give back the money? Sure. But most of them probably wouldn't take Elon's offer in the first place.
(DIR) Post #An7eSl95lECF8fwzpo by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:32:04Z
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@interfluidity Are you fine with Georgia prohibiting giving out water in the voting lines as "vote buying"? Because that's the example of how the right tries to wedge into the cracks you'd potentially open up by slipping down this slope. We need objective measures.
(DIR) Post #An7ekfxTmm2oGO3uTo by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:35:19Z
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@louis no one’s gonna give back the money. it’s not a contract. but if someone gives me $100 — even a very wealthy person — because they want me to do something i think is fine to do, i’m going to try to do it, because i’m not a sociopath. sure, there will also be Elon haters who’ll sign a petition as meaningful as any petition attached to a campaign donation e-mail just to take the money, vote for Harris as they would have anyway. but statistically, you’re buying votes.
(DIR) Post #An7f4T2BXxs1yIhUfI by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:38:54Z
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@louis i think that prohibition is dumb, but don’t think it’s a big deal.the big deal in places like Georgia is engineering very long lines in blue precincts that renders water a helpful amenity, but the lack of free water is not going to keep a lot of people who are willing to brave those lines from persevering.
(DIR) Post #An7f6DqF0I59QowzgG by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:39:07Z
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@interfluidity I think there's also a pretty large contingent of people who will just take the money and not vote at all. Since the only condition of getting the money is being registered to vote, you could even call it a registration drive.
(DIR) Post #An7feJPOoOiGXkePL6 by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:45:22Z
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@louis sure. the modal effect of most interventions is nothing. for every 10 people you pay, 4 would’ve voted Trump anyway, 2 will vote Harris anyway, 2 wouldn’t have voted and still won’t, 2 wouldn’t have voted and now vote for Trump. Pennsylvania votes are worth the $500 per.a voter registration drive conditioned on prospective voters views, like, say signing a pro 2A petition, would i think be illegal. you can do your GOTV at a gun fair, but you can’t ask then filter.
(DIR) Post #An7g6InqeoB0m0QvpI by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:50:25Z
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@interfluidity So, paying someone to sign a pro-2A petition, on its own, is perfectly legal, yes?And a GOTV drive is perfectly legal, yes?But you think, when someone does both simultaneously, it should become illegal?
(DIR) Post #An7gApAYGKhyJVD15U by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:51:14Z
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@interfluidity And, FWIW, the contact info harvesting is probably the only reason I wouldn't sign it myself.I'm a fan of 1A and 2A and extracting free cash from dipshits.
(DIR) Post #An7gR2cI2738eYurLs by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:54:10Z
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@louis simultaneously, no. conditional, absolutely. if you GOTV, you might hope to be registering like minded voters, but you have to help all comers.
(DIR) Post #An7gd29dZqCah9ETz6 by louis@ingenthron.social
2024-10-18T06:56:19Z
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@interfluidity Fair enough, I see the logic in that.
(DIR) Post #An7gkTzKUST92xxm3k by interfluidity@zirk.us
2024-10-18T06:57:41Z
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@louis My friend, they have your contact already. I’m sorry you don’t live in PA to at least render the vote buying scheme $100 more expensive. (In this case, I would also gladly scam the wealthy payer, despite my claim to nonsociopathy, because in my view the reciprocity Elon Musk requires is punishment for norm violations. But I don’t think the typical 2A loving Pennsylvanian is as blackpilled on Elon as you or I.)
(DIR) Post #An86akpDdM47B6Fumu by kentwillard@zirk.us
2024-10-18T11:47:16Z
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@interfluidity "It is legal because we said so." - entirety of Musk vs US decision.