Post AlWRMTFVtllJSQKAwC by amerika@annihilation.social
(DIR) More posts by amerika@annihilation.social
(DIR) Post #AlQ1cPogfK0nghxXuK by BGCarpenter@liberdon.com
2024-08-28T02:51:11Z
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#corrupt #exit
(DIR) Post #AlQ1cQZ7sf9u0jgdI8 by BGCarpenter@liberdon.com
2024-08-28T03:45:25Z
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@jhertzli The left/right is a false dichotomy to keep us fighting each other while "they" enslave us and steal our wealth.
(DIR) Post #AlQ1cRFfKVBc8fabb6 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-28T07:32:08Z
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@BGCarpenter @jhertzli This is the truth! At least in scandinavia. At the end of the day, the personal income effects are minimal depending on the left or the right are in power. The reason is that the taxes are revoltingly high already at around 60% or so. There's simply no space for more tax increases without damaging society too much. The only thing the election decides is which politicians who will become rich on tax money. I don't vote. I use lawyers and the law to lower my taxes.
(DIR) Post #AlQOyg29LhcFIiqB96 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-28T11:53:54.350274Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@h4890 @BGCarpenter I think USA is getting to this point too
(DIR) Post #AlQP2c7vofDmLJQF28 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-28T11:54:37.048592Z
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@BGCarpenter @jhertzli Gibberish.The Left wants more egalitarianism, the Right wants more realism.But when your government gets big enough, no one can change much of anything.This is why democracies always shuffle obediently into failure.
(DIR) Post #AlQP5nDl1dw3cQfAxs by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-28T11:55:08.831895Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter The problem there, then, is that you have too much government.Seems the administrative state snuck up on Europe even worse than in the USA... which I thought unpossible.
(DIR) Post #AlQP8BKcLzMUyZ0kCm by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-28T11:55:37.401772Z
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@BGCarpenter The voters keep voting for the corruption because it promises to give them free things.
(DIR) Post #AlQZ4CuJYIWoFKS2rY by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-28T13:46:56Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter I hope not. The world needs a strong pro-freedom nation that can work as a counter weight to all the authoritarian and socialist nations out there. It is absolutely imperative for freedom that there can be enormous brain drain from socialist to more pro-freedom countries, to make sure that the socialist countries collapse quickly and painfully to remind the masses that it is, and always will be, a bad idea.
(DIR) Post #AlQZBvRqLhMqPjoZUG by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-28T13:48:20Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter I don't know if I would say "snuck up". Europe has always been conservative, backward looking and socialist since the 1850s and onwards. I would say that the administrative state is the natural condition of europe, with various short times of prosperity and freedom. But like the UK, those short times of prosperity and freedom usually collapse into socialism again.
(DIR) Post #AlQaOyGjGyCyshOtf6 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-28T14:01:54.747988Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter "Snuck up" in the sense that the bureaucracy, not elected officials, was writing the laws. This is what Brexit was about, for example.But yes, as soon as a bunch of idiots gather and demand "their" share, they create an overbearing government that murders prosperity and sanity.
(DIR) Post #AlQaXjgMsGMGFSZXVo by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-28T14:03:29.565558Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@h4890 @BGCarpenter The masses will never learn. That's the lesson of history. They have to be managed because all of their ideas are insane.I do not see freedom as a solution. Realism is the solution; freedom is the proxy. You get freedom through functional order, or at least, you get as much freedom as you should have (most people cannot handle it).I draw the line on things like freedom of expression and religion. I think these are sacred for all.
(DIR) Post #AlR8AoYjyMCR9gFKzY by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-28T20:20:19Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter How can you consistently draw the line between those and other freedoms without resorting to "I just do"? And also... What do you think about emergent freedom? It is established fact that capitalism has brought us to the highest point in human history of wealth, low infant mortality and quality of life. Free nations do better, and nations which turn away from freedom do worse and are less happy according to Johan Norbergs "The Capitalist Manifesto".
(DIR) Post #AlRb2Pz2MHknHwtXtY by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-29T01:43:45.186027Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter Natural rights.Conservatism holds that societies are organized by privileges paired to duties.However, each person has the natural ability to make choices, and so this is respected in the areas over which they have privilege.
(DIR) Post #AlS5WhjLwACzdsusbo by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-29T07:25:21Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter Where do these rights come from? In a world that is only physical, where do they reside?
(DIR) Post #AlSbCEtuc2q2yD8nB2 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-29T13:20:14.407447Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter These are things people can normally do in reality unless limited by a superior force.The root of all thinking is realism however. What creates the best results in reality?The logic is clear that having freedom of thought, speech, and association is central to that, even for the left half of the bell curve.
(DIR) Post #AlSpTcYfJ6tgchNwG0 by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-29T15:14:36Z
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@amerikaHow can you have freedom of expression without having freedom of finance?Publishing a news paper or podcast are forms of expression. If a person has the right to express himself he has the right to use his mind and time (= money) the way he sees best (self expression).With financial freedom comes economic freedom. With that comes all other freedoms.Without financial freedom you have no freedom of expression.So your policies are self contradicting@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlSpTdCMvUekbpxe8u by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-29T16:00:14.327129Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Big leaps there. He has the ability to think and speak. He can write and someone can publish it. That's all there is.If you want financial freedom, end the taxes so living is cheaper and quality is higher.
(DIR) Post #AlTKkhW1E6BPV3ltlg by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-29T20:21:35Z
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@amerikaIf some one can publish it that person needs to have financial freedom.If there are a small group of people who get to choose what is published, they get to choose whose expression is more expressive. They choose the manner in which someone expresses himself, which is also part of the self expression.You can't get out of the contradiction. To have freedom of expression you must have financial freedom. Without financial freedom there is no freedom of expression@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlTKkiHAOntfrHpYG0 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-29T21:50:40Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter I'd say it depends on how you define freedom of expression. I can express myself in many ways which do not require money. I can talk, I can smile, body language, etc. Freedom of expression could be taken to mean that I should be able to do all of the above, without anyone stopping me. Finance does enter into the equation from a libertarian perspective in the right to property. My property can strengthen the way in which I express myself. At the same time,
(DIR) Post #AlTKuLoSlqG35R04XY by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-29T21:52:25Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter no one can be forced to listen to what I have to say. To connect financial freedom and make it the ultimate freedom, I think I would rather speak of first... a right to my own life and my own body, and in order to sustain my life and my body, I have the right to my property which is acquired without force or violence or threat of violence, and that is how I'd say that property rights, which enable my life, are the fundament for a lot of other freedoms.
(DIR) Post #AlTKyBxZLWxPgb5hmC by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-29T21:53:07Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter Something like that perhaps. I had a 9 hours event with beers, so I blame the beers for any fallacies here! ;)
(DIR) Post #AlU7Ov9cjTxhBPXZnk by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T06:55:46Z
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@h4890I think you got it exactly right! Those were good beers 😂In the end we have one and only one right. The right to live. All other rights are corollary to the right to live.The right for economic freedom is a primary right since it's impossible to do anything without economic freedom.How you do something is the other side of the coin of what you do. When people want to do something the how is part of it.@amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlUB7O9Kad09iMIbei by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T07:37:26Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter I recommend Jan Narvesons "the libertarian idea" where he uses the assumption that we all want to live, to derive libertarian ethics based on a contractarian approach. Especially section 2 of the book is good. Section one is too theoretical, 2 is great, and 3 is the application of his ideas to various problems such as security, the environment etc. Contractarianism says that what is ethical, is what rational beings would agree to in a contract (more or less).
(DIR) Post #AlUPyfY61ovCNsBPrU by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T10:23:55Z
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@h4890Added to my list.Ayn Rand also starts her ethics with life. But in a typical randian she first asks "what is life?" 😂@amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlUdeLFVBxu4zXgfTs by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-30T12:57:09.095407Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @BGCarpenter I think this is a mistake because it is still individualism.You want to secure privileges ("rights") to duties to a goal of civilization.Without a purpose, everything will get raied eventually.
(DIR) Post #AlUdlUgQVvfCHKgvS4 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-30T12:58:26.466631Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @BGCarpenter I am only partially libertarian, in that I believe Austrian economics explains economics entirely and any deviation from that general view is a trip into fantasyland that leads to Keynesianism.We face a conflict here: is society comprised of groups, or individuals? If you want to survive, the former, but then you have to prevent the parasites from taking over.
(DIR) Post #AlUi6amJRpiF4zlCwi by EvilSandmich@poa.st
2024-08-30T13:47:04.682826Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter >is what rational beings would agree toYeah but I would like some women in my country 🙄
(DIR) Post #AlUiMMx6cVSMpgKdY8 by torparskytt@mastodon.nu
2024-08-30T13:49:52Z
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@h4890 @kpeace Sounds very interesting! Kinda expensive to buy new but I managed to find a used copy to order 👍
(DIR) Post #AlUjNJXss7NMVhY6bo by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T14:01:17Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter ;)
(DIR) Post #AlUjajDmileruIXnn6 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T14:03:43Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace Yes. I think the times we do end up on different sides, it is explained by my libertarian streak and the fact that you are partially libertarian. I am fully and completely on the side of society being made up by individuals at bottom, who can then voluntarily choose to engage or not at the group level. I find it very stimulating to see how are deviations lead us in different directions on some issues.
(DIR) Post #AlUje94Z3yFWx5rQqu by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T14:04:19Z
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@EvilSandmich @amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace Isn't there some kind of handbook based on this premise called the handmaids tale? ;)
(DIR) Post #AlUjhcnL0soU0DSizQ by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T14:04:57Z
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@torparskytt @kpeace For electronic versions reading on an eink device, I recommend https://annas-archive.org/. It must have saved me 1000s of dollars by now. Also https://libgen.gs/ is good.
(DIR) Post #AlUrrCtWxn0mChRHYe by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-30T15:36:20.606700Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace I view capitalism as the only option for economic systems.But political, social, legal, and cultural systems need other bases.A society is like a bundle of sticks. Economy is one.Like most people who are pro-capitalist, I am more anti-socialist than anything else, since capitalism works and socialism does the opposite.
(DIR) Post #AlUtJRFFIqEqlycc2y by torparskytt@mastodon.nu
2024-08-30T15:52:37Z
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@h4890 @kpeace Looks like amazing resources. I don’t have an e-ink device but I think I will download a lot of pdfs so that I have them by TEOTWAWKI. #datahoarding
(DIR) Post #AlVKErlxwYg2MTyF0K by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T20:54:21Z
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@torparskytt @kpeace If you read a lot, I cannot recommend getting one highly enough. Your eyes will thank you! https://www.webhallen.com/se/category/4934-Lasplatta?sortBy=priceAsc
(DIR) Post #AlVL1Tofnji0FgPxfk by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T15:58:45Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @h4890 The foundation of Austrian economics is that all economic actions originate from an individuals need to alleviate his pain. That all value is an individuals subjective value.If you accept that Austrian economics explain economics you are accepting that the primary unit of society is the individual.
(DIR) Post #AlVL1USNQ7T4EozfYe by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-30T21:03:07Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter I agree. However, I did not know about the "pain" part. Sounds a lot like Epicurus! The more I hear, the more amazed I am at how far ahead of his time he was writing about materialism, non-aggression, contractarianism, long-term pleasure and contentment, fighting against religious supersticion and more.
(DIR) Post #AlVLiH6ovFahIEJPmq by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-30T21:10:52.904090Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 No, not at all. I am accepting that this is how people behave and supply-side economics makes sense where demand-side economics is politics.Still not useful for many of the functions of society.Like I say, libertarians are incomplete thinkers, even if I agree with Nick Land that we need a few generations of hard capitalism to burn out the incompetents.
(DIR) Post #AlVLlqlYo4Ueka4ZTE by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-30T21:11:31.597019Z
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@h4890 @EvilSandmich @BGCarpenter @kpeace Artificial wombs are the game-changer.
(DIR) Post #AlWCWKk8sbkEeytanA by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T07:02:33Z
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@h4890If I remember correctly that's how Mises defined it.Maybe he used another word, like discomfort, but the point is the same@amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlWK2ZWUADr1RbpMIq by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T08:26:50Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace "we need a few generations of hard capitalism to burn out the incompetents."This is very interesting! I often thought myself, that our current politicians, and society at large, have been indoctrinated, indirectly in the school of socialism since birth. "The government" takes care of you, handles all problems, which has made them passive, naive and not very capable to handle rough times.
(DIR) Post #AlWKJfNxcWruY7zWBE by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T07:12:45Z
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@amerikaI agree that Libertarians are incomplete thinkers. But what I think they lack is a philosophical foundation, not politics.Their economics outline a political system where there is no not only no need for decision by race and groups, but it's proven to harm the economic system.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWKJgYzF1HaCc9q0O by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T08:29:54Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter Yes... I think that Mises writes so himself in his book Liberalism (not to be confused with modern liberalism where the word has been stolen by the left). LIbertarianism, says Mises, is a science, and it tells us the most efficient way, to give as many people as possible as high a material standard in their life as possible. But, what to fill their lives with, that is not the task of libertarianism. That is up to each individual. Libertarianism only maximizes
(DIR) Post #AlWKL8HNgAfyS4c33g by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T08:30:12Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter your wealth and available time. How do use those things, is up to you.
(DIR) Post #AlWKVT31Jl3ll9p8AS by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T07:05:03Z
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@torparskyttI like the term #datahoarding !With today censorship and history revisionists I too am beginning to hoard information @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWKVTjYlb5Tt5j6TQ by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T08:32:03Z
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@kpeace @torparskytt Interesting. Never thought of it like that. I mean, I do save favourite books and stuff, since I like reading them, but you do have a point about increasing censorship. In terms of hoarding, have a look athttp://www.textfiles.com/directory.htmllot's of interesting texts there which are probably illegal already in a lot of countries.
(DIR) Post #AlWP9GSpvEi08G8C8W by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T09:24:03Z
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@h4890 @amerika @BGCarpenter Like I sometimes like to say to annoy socialists: We need to get rid of all the warning labels and let evolution take care of the rest 😂(I might have borrowed this from George Carlin)
(DIR) Post #AlWRMTFVtllJSQKAwC by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T09:48:53.031210Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Decision by tribe (race, ethnicity, religion) is the way of history.Trying to deny this is the same mistake the socialists make.We cannot human engineer a better solution; the way of nature makes the most sense.Do libertarians have a philosophy? It's a forgery if it is. Capitalism is part of nature, too. Any other attempt to manage markets is more of the hybris delusion.
(DIR) Post #AlWRUuTmXcvuE81SHw by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T09:50:24.364417Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace I think Marx is right in that (a) time is money and (b) systems tend toward socialism over time.This is the same point Plato made: once you dip your toe into the notion of socially engineering humanity, the momentum naturally carries you toward a Brave New World scenario.
(DIR) Post #AlWRfuiZzi0C9WBu2S by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T09:52:23.778623Z
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@kpeace @h4890 @BGCarpenter Get rid of the benefits state and people will find a way to be useful or perish.Very practical way to silence gene drift, which is what underlies the civilization failure cycle.
(DIR) Post #AlWSNgxeVGfcEC7GKW by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:00:16Z
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@h4890(from human action by Mises)Acting man is eager to substitute a more satisfactory state of affairs for a less satisfactory.His mind imagines conditions which suit him better, and his actionaims at bringing about this desired state. The incentive that impelsa man to act is always some uneasiness@amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlWSvGiOalYQfmzTbU by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:06:22.304802Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Lots of former sysops contributed archives to that site. I remember sending over a CD of ours taken off backup tape.
(DIR) Post #AlWTlBulgX7mqKXJIW by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:11:42Z
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@amerika I disagree on two points.a. Historically tribes decide by reaching a consensus amongst individual prominent members (chieftains, warriors, priests etc.). Each individual weighed the pros and cons and came to a decision. When some sort of consensus (I am not claiming that they were democratic or anything like that) was reached, the tribe went forward.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWTlCfCtsGtAMGOgK by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:14:06Z
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@amerikab. Socialist is a type of tribalism. Except instead of an organic / ethnic tribe they are talking about economic and social classes. It's a tribe nonetheless.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWTlDKKQzAHDtVEmG by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:15:44.939974Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 I disagree; socialism emulates tribalism in an inferior form.This is what Nietzsche's quotation about "everything the state says is a lie, and everything it has, it has stolen" is about.Ersatz fakery.
(DIR) Post #AlWTnlctsdtwBFPIf2 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:16:13.624607Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Tribes are generally better than democratic: you promote your wisest to leadership, and then demand they reach an accord.Voting is a lottery.
(DIR) Post #AlWU9QY2vh0PB6St3A by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:19:18Z
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@amerikaIt might be an inferior form of tribalism (that depends on your criterion) but it's still a form of tribalism.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWU9RQdeifruQ0U8u by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:20:07.898805Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 It's an imitation, which means it does not have all of the traits of the original.Therefore, your argument is backwards.
(DIR) Post #AlWUKfMoArA4K5ZFnk by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:20:32Z
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@amerikaSounds like a representative democracy@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWUKgIwghfLEOlgQ4 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:22:09.811337Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Representative democracy requires (a) vote predominance not accord and (b) enfranchises all citizens, which is mental.
(DIR) Post #AlWUTN1BlOj61Pbc4e by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:23:00Z
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@amerikaSocialists will argue that it's an evolution. A better version with better traits.Either way, be it an evolution or an imitation, socialism is still tribalism. A collectivist way of thinking. Not individualism.That is my point.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWUTNwyIYwmucdl8i by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:23:44.543833Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Yes, but that's backward.Socialism is not tribalism; it is an imitation of some aspects of tribalism.The collectivist/individualist dichotomy is fake also.
(DIR) Post #AlWUsh6oCi5XZUJGnw by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:26:41Z
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@amerikaWe are getting to a true Scotsman point. They try to be tribal, from my point of view they are tribal.Why do you think the collectivist/individualist dichotomy is fake?@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWUshgy2H0nNdE9AG by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:28:18.824655Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 No, it's not no true Scotsman to argue that an inferior imitation is unrelated to the original.Your second question is more involved and best answered by existing writings.https://www.amerika.org/politics/collectivism-is-individualism/
(DIR) Post #AlWVwYgRZRdkYNNsi8 by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:35:53Z
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@amerikaI didn't read it fully, but it seams as if you mixed up a lot concepts.For instance it seems as if you describe individuals working together (corporation) as a form of collectivism.You declare individualism to be egalitarian and a drive towards equality. I think it's quite the opposite.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWVwZQApQDgqCmOzQ by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:40:13.005575Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Consider the Bell Curve. The 4/5 to the left are the ones who "need" equality.They are driven by individualism, i.e. something to gain for themselves, taken from others.This is the nature of all egalitarian ventures.
(DIR) Post #AlWWif5j39iQKK9B7g by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T10:46:21Z
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@amerikaIndividualism - Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language)There is nothing there about taking from others. Quite the opposite.AN individualistic society the individual strives to reach hid ideals. Since people are different their goals and success will differ. Which will result in inequality.Individualism = unequal society@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlWWifjQfXTUJSit0a by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-08-31T10:48:54.559746Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Those who want Communism do so because it will give them personal independence via free money.Individualism just means placing the individual above all else.https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/methodological-individualism/
(DIR) Post #AlWj3LFvBy40L5XlAm by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T13:07:05Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt It is a gold mine! I especially like all the anarchists cookbooks and the explosive stuff. All of that is censored today on chat gpt and other AI:s, so I've made a point of downloading it for posterity. Boy did I have fun with flash bombs and smoke bombs during my early youth!
(DIR) Post #AlWjDE2ersgirT3K6a by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T13:08:53Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter At some level... isn't every "ism" a tribe? Granted, more sophisticated and about membership in the ethereal realm of ideas, but at the end of the day, a tribe?
(DIR) Post #AlWjLufEHfDBMtEiv2 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T13:10:27Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter But if you deconstruct the sentence, what is moving forward is a group of individuals, each individually moving forward. As a short cut, yes, we say that the tribe is moving forward, but at the end of the day, what we see, if individuals individually acting towards a common goal. Due to our biology, any other interpretation and explanation is impossible. Many socialists I've debated seem to think we are bees in a beehive, but at the end of the day, we are not.
(DIR) Post #AlXAhSmnJO6W2VH8a0 by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T18:16:52Z
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@h4890Isms are an ideology/ philosophy. I won't call them a tribe. Some of them call for a formation of a tribe or claim that tiebes have primacy over individuals @amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlXAnmoRlYLTt93zZw by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T18:17:57Z
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@h4890Exactly what I meant.@amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlXRjcuiKIhJFYb56W by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T21:27:46Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter Interesting. I always thought of them as intellectual tribes. Especially when I was young doing academic philosophy. The tribal mindset was very strong.
(DIR) Post #AlXRodaFGO7Cm8PcsS by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-08-31T21:28:40Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter Happy to clarify! =)
(DIR) Post #AlYQCnR8HBABX9VBVQ by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T06:30:34Z
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@amerikaIndependence and reliance on other people are contradiction.Some people might not understand that, but they are wrong. We are not defining terms according to people who don't understand them.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlYQCo7fj1Btf5P9oO by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T08:45:19Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter I'm not sure about that definition. In modern society, we have no choice but to depend on people who produce products in remote countries, that help us live and make our lives tolerable. So independence, if it means, no reliance on other people, will mean life is reduced to subsistence farming, and the economy will crash with it. I've discussed with SHTF people, and being dependent on a small community where you help each other, to me, sounds like an essential
(DIR) Post #AlYQLMMCKJj89cHF2G by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T08:46:53Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter ingredient for indepedence and self-reliance. But I guess a case can be made for not being independent on other people from an every day point of view, as in, get a job, and earn your own money. Paradoxically, that way of life, still depends on people, but, in a much more productive way than the person who lives by begging.
(DIR) Post #AlYdEfT6Ai9Inte0Wm by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T11:11:20Z
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@h4890Maybe that is why Ayn Rand defined Independence as independence of the mind.https://courses.aynrand.org/lexicon/independence/When it comes to physical independence the question is, can a person produce enough value so he can support himself. It doesn't matter if he creates it only in bread and needs to sell the bread to but meat. Since he created enough value to support himself, as long as the market functions, he is independent@amerika @BGCarpenter
(DIR) Post #AlYggjhALjOLssIe4O by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T11:50:02.472627Z
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@kpeace @h4890 @BGCarpenter As long as you need someone to sell the bread to, you need a functional civilization.This is why I am a nationalist. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the survival of a civilization.
(DIR) Post #AlYgoetC6NkzIMhgUC by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T11:51:28.659801Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @BGCarpenter In any advanced economy, this is true.Sane economies drop (exile, asylumize, execute, incarcerate) non-contributors.
(DIR) Post #AlYh7RJKoIIMgVszpo by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T11:54:52.181347Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @BGCarpenter The intellectual tribe is Leftism, which is a home for mediocre thinkers everywhere.
(DIR) Post #AlYhAJsatcGQVPkfVQ by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T11:55:23.444971Z
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@kpeace @h4890 @BGCarpenter Absolutely no one seems to be able to see that both tribal and individual needs have to be represented and assessed for realism.
(DIR) Post #AlYi5uwHmY2hwxwXXU by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T12:05:47.814495Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @BGCarpenter Ideologies are more like cults than tribes. They are what hopes to replace tribes.Naturally, this would extend to individualISM as well.
(DIR) Post #AlYiDTI6SdZWW9kZWK by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T12:07:09.946578Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt We grew up in an economically-depressed wasteland with lots of abandoned stuff that we could detonate. Same experience.I think in a high-trust, racially uniform, and high average IQ society you can have some data be semi-public knowing that it will be abused but not too far.In diverse America, these text files are an invitation to jihad or organized crime for half of the population.
(DIR) Post #AlYj2fEHpkSEJSNLEW by kpeace@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T11:55:59Z
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@amerikaTo sell the bread you need a market. For a market you need rational human beings + property rights.For property rights you need a good philosophy.People with similar heritage (genetic / culture) will normally share a common philosophy. If it is a good one it would help the market. If it is a bad one it would harm the market.Nationalism is not a factor in all this. It's just one element in a philosophy.@BGCarpenter @h4890
(DIR) Post #AlYj2g5ocjGwzTQ5fU by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T12:16:24.543814Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 I see capitalism as one thread in the bundle of things needed for civilization.https://www.amerika.org/politics/restorationists/Without culture, nothing holds you together except commerce, and that is an ugly and unstable state.
(DIR) Post #AlYmCL5DtJpIaZRPRw by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T12:51:46Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace But do note that commerce does not require nations. It only needs people who are willing to transact. Commerce is in fact older than many nations that we see today.
(DIR) Post #AlYmHjCBfZr0otGgfw by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T12:52:45.278983Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace I disagree. On any scale above a few isolated tribes, commerce requires culture in order to have rules of fair play. Otherwise it rapidly becomes parasitic.
(DIR) Post #AlYmOoOQkBUexzNACu by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T12:54:01Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter I would say a resounding "yes". Producing enough for a subsitence level of life, is definitely possible for one person, depending of course, on where you live. But subsistence levels of production will not drive civilization forward. The key question is how much more, beyond subsistence we produce. So indepednence of the mind I think is a good way to go. Physical independence is possible, but is not conducive to civlization at subsitence levels. We need
(DIR) Post #AlYmR8EpvlNj5vzXFI by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T12:54:27Z
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@kpeace @amerika @BGCarpenter each other, excess production and capitalism for any degree of modern civilization.
(DIR) Post #AlYmWBDEIh4jlaeAhE by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T12:55:20Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace Yes! I would add "ignore" to that list as well. In a free market, without governments and nations, people would simply choose not to transact with those people.
(DIR) Post #AlYmaqDDo1mu5FrkJ6 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T12:56:12.355950Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace Doesn't work. If you ignore them, they simply impose negative externalities on their own.
(DIR) Post #AlYmlu6BhDlpK5qoaG by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T12:58:10Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace So we have cults and tribes and ideologies in this thread. Depending on the definition, I do not see how individualism would fit into any of those, except as an ideology or philosophical stand point. By its very nature, individualism cannot be a tribe. Seems like a contradiction to me.
(DIR) Post #AlYmrnTtDIbeXIkOhc by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T12:59:16.446529Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace Individualism is clearly an ideology.It's also unrealistic, so it forms a little cult of denial around that.It will never be a tribe; it is the opposite of the tribal instinct.But it conceals a far worse instinct, which is unbridled selfishness disguised as altruism.
(DIR) Post #AlYmylUszK5ePUXIES by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:00:31Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt Jihad and crime knows no nations. All knowledge and all innovation can be used for good and evil. The only way to control it, is total control of the bodies and minds of the human being. The other way is to trust that we'll do the right thing in the end, and accept that living means risk. Eliminate all risk and you eliminate a huge part of the meaning of human lives. You can see this in western socialist "democracies" were the government tries to eliminate
(DIR) Post #AlYn5kMLcHXcuOs5XU by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:01:47.544271Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Where I join the libertarian idea is that everything is economics.Incentive structures matter.But first, you need a stable civilization, and that requires a mono-ethnic approach.Control is a losing gambit IMHO because an equal and opposite reaction occurs.
(DIR) Post #AlYn7awRbQ9UHMdWd6 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:02:06Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt all risk. People get depressed, lack meaning in their lives, create drama for themselves to fill the existential gaps in their souls, watch stupid reality shows etc. They become passive. Those are all results of neutering the lives of people by teaching them that the government is god, and all risk is evil. The reason I trust man in the long term, is that we have had the capability to blow up the planet for 80 years, and yet, despite all dictators, we have not
(DIR) Post #AlYnBR1IQvRsfKjlEe by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:02:48Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt done so, since dictators and crazies want to live too! Yes, there's war, terrorist attacks and the like, but at the end of the day, everyone, good or evil, want the kingdom to remain. If not, what's the point?
(DIR) Post #AlYnHCOLjX0p2DGiES by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:03:51.755924Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Or maybe: humans obsessively try to eliminate risk, and this is their downfall.Classic hybris.
(DIR) Post #AlYnMVJQoXZ3AEUvk8 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:04:49.400305Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Also: I do not believe in "good" and "evil."
(DIR) Post #AlYnNsVm2uwVP7vUHY by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:05:03Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace I think thius formulation is much better than "nationalism" because nationalism has become tainted by the modern left and brings so many weird ideas and concepts with it, that obscures your point. I agree, libertarianism stops at material welfare, but does not say anything about the spiritual or "mental" welfare and the values we use to govern and infuse our lives with meaning. Nationalism does the trick for some, philosophy for others, others just
(DIR) Post #AlYna1GDLKuq0vRC4W by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:07:15Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace enjoy life without any second thought. Nationalism is not for me. I see it as a prison that ties one to a nation or geographic area. My values come from my philosophy, and my internet discussion partners. But! I do willingly accept that nationalism is necessary for many people in order to get any form of functioning society and trust. It lubricates the cog wheels of civilization for a certain type of human being. It can also go disastrously wrong, but
(DIR) Post #AlYndk9StZm06t3Z7g by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:07:55Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace so can other "value bearers" such as religion, politics, ideology and philosophy. A brief look at human history is enough proof of that.
(DIR) Post #AlYnlIxzquGs78IWrQ by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:09:18.198784Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace This is why I endorse the "civilization bundle" or four pillars:* Culture-rule* Hierarchy* Positive reward systems* Transcendental goalWithout all four, you do not have a civilization, but the decayed remnants of one that is heading for Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Vietnam, etc. status.
(DIR) Post #AlYnlwvZHM603BT9d2 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:09:24Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace Well, then they become what we call "criminals" and since they attack we are then allowed to forcefully defend ourselves. This happens regardless of if you have governments or not. Markets or not, so it is a fault of human nature and not of any system of commerce or way to govern human society.
(DIR) Post #AlYnsZ00dtGNrghUTQ by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:10:36.984461Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace The point is that if you cultivate too many of them, the negative externalities overwhelm efficiency.This is why societies arise in the first place.
(DIR) Post #AlYnv6F01NXZXdvB8S by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:11:04.497959Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace No offense, but it's not a question of what is "for you." It's a question of what works.Nationalism works because it enables culture. Culture does what markets and government cannot.
(DIR) Post #AlYnxE6jkBMaWF4RaC by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:11:25Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace I think it is realistic, but, our disagreement I suspect will be dissolved based on semantics and definitions. As for instincts of selfishness as altruism, this is biological, and has nothing to do with philosophy. Many are the collectivist who succumb to this as well. But it is descriptive and not normative.
(DIR) Post #AlYnyoKyWoyzAmUCNk by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:11:44.781159Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace You have revealed the problem of individualism here: it is incapable of thinking on any level larger than that of the individual, therefore is hostile to civilization itself.Anarchism, in other words.
(DIR) Post #AlYo3h3P2Fxo21awYi by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:12:37.712118Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace I can't agree here. There are eternal human problems, but broken philosophies like individualism (artificially limited scope) encourage them.
(DIR) Post #AlYo6meCh9tEFTHWwC by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:13:10Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt For me, that moves us into ethics, and I think we agree on that point based on the last time we discussed it. I also think there was something we did not agree on, but can' remember the specifics. But I do think we both enjoy and appreciate Nietzsche, so a lot of our commonality starts there and some of our disagreements come from different interpretations of nietzsche if memory serves.
(DIR) Post #AlYo8PjgqnI5ljcq0m by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:13:29.081267Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace What you call "collectivism" is just what happens when you get a group of individualists together.They decide that they want what they want, and they want someone else to subsidize it.In the case of the "rugged individualists" like American Republicans or yourself, the subsidy they want is for someone else to set up a nice tidy civilization with culture for them to live in.
(DIR) Post #AlYoFVYvaQ7drlySK8 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:14:45.720395Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Ethic is a branch of... what, exactly? Technically: aesthetics.That is a function of culture, then...I find it interesting that people argue that there are different interpretations of Nietzsche. His meaning is plain; people either choose to figure out the whole of it or cherry-pick the parts that serve their needs.
(DIR) Post #AlYoJENvOTZpkXbQkC by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T13:15:25Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace Ahh, a definition issue then. My individualism certainly does not forbid individuals from cooperating as long as it is voluntary. Therefore it is more than capable of leading to free societies and organizations. Based on what you say, I suspect our definition of individualism is different.
(DIR) Post #AlYoN2MK30WRbufU0m by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T13:16:07.409608Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace Individualism is clear in definition: human individuals first above all else (culture, nature, race, etc)."Free" societies seem to implode.
(DIR) Post #AlYvoa4LWPGlesLBtA by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T14:39:32.169169Z
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@kpeace @BGCarpenter @h4890 Actual independence is when you own your own island with its own defense systems and you produce all of the food and other items you need.
(DIR) Post #AlZ0L4qr0auADAmTpo by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T15:30:13Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt Nietzsches stance evolves, naturally, throughout his life. Some agree with early, some with middle and some with late Nietzsche. There is not just "one" Nietzsche. For me: Ethics: "The study of principles relating to right and wrong conduct." Aesthetics: "The branch of philosophy that deals with the nature, expression, and perception of beauty, as in the fine arts.".
(DIR) Post #AlZ0V2MP7pkjNhHtAm by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T15:32:00Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace My starting point"Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence." Note _primary_ importance not _only_ importance. Unfree societies also implode.
(DIR) Post #AlZ4pVYIhSR7Whrv7Y by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T16:20:32.856589Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace Primary = before all else.It's a false free/unfree dichotomy at some point. Even unfree societies are in part free. Your society is realistic to a certain degree, and that has a lot to do with its TTL.
(DIR) Post #AlZ4t5g6qCaiRDEI76 by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T16:21:11.679923Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Evolution is refinement, not reversal. His writings are consistent to his first.Ethics is a sub-section of aesthetics.
(DIR) Post #AlZ5chHlrdTG6famno by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:29:22Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace Primary still does not mean "only" or "to the exclusion of all else". I'm afraid I have to agree to disagree on this one. When it comes to free/unfree, I think we have ourselves a definition game there, to avoid misunderstanding each other, when it comes to the concept being applied to society.
(DIR) Post #AlZ5hZX879CRVl6Jfc by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T16:30:19.195558Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace Primary means first before all else, which means that if the two conflict, the primary wins out.
(DIR) Post #AlZ5nEyZSWhxUVdgfo by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:31:19Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt When it comes to evolution and reversal, evolution does not revert to earlier stages in nature in the sense of retracing its steps. Instead, it can exhibit what is known as _regressive evolution_, where organisms lose complex features and may appear to evolve “back” into simpler forms. However, this process does not imply that evolution is reversing itself; rather, it reflects a change in the organism’s adaptations to its environment.
(DIR) Post #AlZ5u4J5WbSWQdUXse by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T16:32:34.666872Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt No, but unless the environment shifts, it means refinement in adaptation.You may be speaking of degeneration, where traits no longer useful fade away, like the fish in caves that lose the ability to see.
(DIR) Post #AlZ5yAzkbIVWKVPCds by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:33:17Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt When it comes to aesthetics and ethics, I disagree. While both ethics and aesthetics are significant branches of philosophy, they focus on different aspects of human experience:Ethics primarily concerns itself with moral judgments about right and wrong actions, character traits, and societal norms.Aesthetics, on the other hand, deals with perceptions of beauty and artistic value.
(DIR) Post #AlZ5zrNmURWa59RrXM by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:33:36Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt Although there can be intersections between the two fields—such as discussions about moral themes in art or ethical considerations in aesthetic judgments—they remain distinct areas of inquiry. For instance, one might explore how ethical principles influence artistic expression or how aesthetic experiences can evoke moral reflections; however, this does not imply that one is a subfield of the other.
(DIR) Post #AlZ60yYTJC4gcHysHQ by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:33:49Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt In summary, while there are connections between ethics and aesthetics in certain contexts (e.g., moral implications in art), ethics is not a subfield of aesthetics. They are separate disciplines within philosophy that may inform each other but operate independently.
(DIR) Post #AlZ6KJiWqtXnkguKv2 by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:37:18Z
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@amerika @BGCarpenter @kpeace I agree that primary means first. I disagree that primary suggest the weights or formula for conflict resolution or decision theory. Depending on the other aspects of the problem, the primary might win out, or it might not, for the time being. It depends on all factors, as well as recurrence. Have a look at the prisoners dilemma and how adding a time dimension/recurrence affects how we play the game as individualists.
(DIR) Post #AlZ6Oj9wCWgFokpa2i by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-01T16:38:06Z
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@amerika @kpeace @torparskytt I was thinking of two things. Degeneration, and a change in environment leading to a change in traits to adapt to the new environment.
(DIR) Post #AlZ6irWmnSUrZ17RvE by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T16:41:45.235103Z
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@h4890 @kpeace @torparskytt Societal norms vary with the society, which is why the reputable sources categorize ethics under aesthetics. It is not directly derivable and is in fact semi-arbitrary.
(DIR) Post #AlZ6nGcvQAcSZ75htQ by amerika@annihilation.social
2024-09-01T16:42:30.285294Z
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@h4890 @BGCarpenter @kpeace Primary must influence the weights of decision-making because it is your highest goal.If your goal is to "serve God" and you have other goals, the primary goal wins out every time.
(DIR) Post #Aly1qzHAEPSP5jrhdQ by torparskytt@mastodon.nu
2024-09-13T16:28:08Z
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@h4890 @kpeace Got it. Just need to finish one or two other books before I begin reading this one 📚
(DIR) Post #Aly1qzqG7vWuqaHjKy by h4890@liberdon.com
2024-09-13T17:14:57Z
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@torparskytt @kpeace Nice! I think the best part was part 2 for me. Part 3 could be interesting if you haven't read a lot of other books on the same theme which talks about how society could be setup privately and goes through some common critique. The first part is very philosophical, so can be a bit tough if you're not into that.