Post AkTO3eTX0VC3dRowwC by Netoraremancer@poa.st
(DIR) More posts by Netoraremancer@poa.st
(DIR) Post #AkRbDUo6iZwBdMY86y by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T03:41:51.794596Z
9 likes, 6 repeats
My autism activation word was passed around the public square of the internet recently, and of course naturally, everyone seems to be completely wrong about the subject. So you know what that means: Effortpoasting Time 🧵 OK frens, some of you in the FPS / Gamedev community may have seen this poast on your timeline this past week (picrel). Or perhaps you've seen one of the hundreds of bait videos made by other people who also haven't read the paper. SBMM is one of those topics that seems to be a free money glitch for anyone in the gaming space... In any case! I feel like it's my duty to inform you The Reader on what this paper actually says about player behavior, and how SBMM actually factors into all of this.If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading my previous thread covering the *original* implementation of SBMM, and the history of how it was iterated upon by Bungie: poa.st/@merchantHelios/posts/AewweNQUujSBwwmtdIthread will continue below, writing this poast by poast
(DIR) Post #AkReUnmVj1KZGbkL8S by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T03:54:10.768625Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
From the very first page, paragraph, and image, I want to point out a few things: (1) - UNLIKE Microsoft/Bungie's Trueskill 1, 1.5, and 2.0 versions, AV (Activision) is specifically accounting for the recency of maps and modes, skill analysis and segregation based on input device, whether or not the player has voice chat enabled, and the platform they are playing on all as factors in their system. TS was explicitly focused on queue times, accurate skill prediction and skill updates. BTW Please refresh yourself with Bungie's own words on the subject, if you didn't read/reread my own thread on the subjectmicrosoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/NIPS2006_0688.pdfmicrosoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2018/03/trueskill2.pdf(2)- **(IMPORTANT)** The actual algorithm for Call of Duty's SBMM is not specifically discussed. This means we have to take a lot of what Activision is saying at face value, which is fine, they don't really have a reason to lie about this specifically, if they did their conclusions would look vastly different. But it's good to keep in mind throughout this. (3) - quoting from directly below the image in picrel "Connection quality and time to match are top priorities in Call of Duty matchmaking . Skill is considered during the grouping of players to form a lobby and in team balancing at intermission. As discussed in depth below, skill targets are loosened faster than delta ping (lobby connection quality) targets when forming a lobby." This gives us an idea of AV's priorities when designing the system, helping inform us as outsiders why they decide to accept certain downsides, which will be discussed at length later.
(DIR) Post #AkReUphGbUKBCvJBEu by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T03:55:05.679237Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Common Terms, I'm going into the rest of the thread assuming you have read and understand these.
(DIR) Post #AkReUrY7iSCOx92uGW by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:00:05.534326Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
A good groundwork, honestly in the Trueskill papers they go into things assuming you know what skill means (roughly), so this makes me question who exactly is the intended audience AV has in mind for this whitepaper. Investors perhaps, other gamedevs - probably. But we can't really say with any certainty.
(DIR) Post #AkReUtZGDCITDFaqJc by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:01:41.803425Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
read: "the more the system thinks you are going to lose a match the more you are rewarded for winning. the opposite is also true"
(DIR) Post #AkReUvrlfMI0LEGeRM by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:05:04.180062Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
(1) Downsides of performance metrics when determining skill. (the specificity of Kills/ Deaths vs Kills / Deaths *by Enemy* makes me much more sure that this is aimed at devs) (2) Not really anything special, the developers of Trueskill also wanted to find equally matched lobbies quickly. But again, good to include
(DIR) Post #AkReUxFCXid0cCEsbY by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:08:39.141761Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
'Why Even Track Skill?' I didn't highlight it in the screencap, but I want to specifically point out the phrase "quantifiably increases the extent to which most players play **and enjoy** Call of Duty" - this is a massive claim which hasn't been properly supported via evidence yet. When reading papers such as this for yourself, be wary of statements like this! This gives away what I think it a core bias common in the AAA gamedev industry at the moment: that an increase in playtime means an increase in enjoyment
(DIR) Post #AkReUz5hg0DeLJoK4u by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:10:51.227377Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Now this, on the other hand, is a very very real scenario that we should be wary of as a consequence whenever we are discussing SBMM: Many games have suffered from this vicious cycle leaving only the battle-hardened oldheads eating new players alive, resulting in many a dead game (looking at you Arena Shooters)
(DIR) Post #AkReV0S4cJhuYzHhaK by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:13:07.523121Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
The highlighted point is really quite interesting to me. I don't really have anything to say other than I'm not sure I really believe Activision here. But, since it is part of their stated goal with this paper, we will simply accept this as-is and move on.
(DIR) Post #AkReV358q298ijZvl2 by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:14:55.050089Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
TLDR: High skill players sway the outcome of matches far more heavily than players near median skill. (The same is true of extremely low skill players, though it is interesting that their example is absent here)
(DIR) Post #AkReV4P1vZeKohtKOe by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:19:22.259394Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Going to pause here for a second and grab a drink. In the meantime, my meta comment is that I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the scientific nature of this 'whitepaper' compared with Bungie's Trueskill. The latter reads like something written by scientists for other scientists, a guide for implementation, a list of perceived pros and cons, as well as examples of where further work could be done in the case of known shortcomings. The current paper reads like someone wanted their data-science PowerPoint to sound slightly more official than usual. I also thoroughly stand by my earlier analysis that the target audience for this (and presumably other papers published by Activision if this is anything to go by) is a combination of AAA Devs and Investors. If meant purely for devs, this is a truly scathing representation of current devs ability to process complex new information.
(DIR) Post #AkRentg41ngb3TpuT2 by WhitestTemplar@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:17:38.171630Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios You know what solves all of these issues? Dedicated servers.
(DIR) Post #AkRenum7wk88SZgGYa by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T04:33:50.520854Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
You're a dumbass
(DIR) Post #AkRfNnA7jEmrH20pjE by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:32:27.068048Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
OK now that I'm back, we can get to the central topic being discussed in the OP - the A/B test and its outcomes.notes:- a treatment group of 50% of all North American cod players is an astounding number- this is apparently a (multiple) repeat of the experiment- it seems at this point that skill constraints are not slackened off gradually, but rather all at once. - it's unsurprising to me that completely removing skill would amplify the results.... it IS a more extreme effect after all.
(DIR) Post #AkRfNodwDsEJrmy9q4 by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:36:36.696134Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Take a moment, if you will, and really read this whole paragraph. (sorry for the page break) The highlighted section strikes me as completely unfounded given the current evidence. Literally: 'Based on what?' Is this a conclusion pulled out of the writer's ass? Is it based off of previous (and longer term) experimentation? This is a serious concern, and frankly I'm inclined to completely ignore this particular conclusion, or at least cast serious doubt.
(DIR) Post #AkRfdTCtgoYE16mm00 by apropos
2024-07-30T04:43:10.563103Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios an old PS3 game changed its matchmaking one day and suddenly all of my lame suicidal and camping behavior made me too highly ranked to play with anyone but battle-hardened oldheads. So I played one game with them, and died once after one fight, exited the game, thought about it, and uninstalled, never to play it again.This is what happened: on this controller-using console game for the PS3 with weapons that have copious lock-on with auto-aim like the machine gun, an oldhead demonstrated how to repeatedly break my lock and kill me in circumstances that shouldn’t favored me. This isn’t an intentional mechanic. It’s a mechanical exploit on par with strafe-jumping in Quake.I didn’t leave because the battles got hard, or my stats got worse. I left because I saw what I would have to master, to continue to get better at the game, and I thought it was a lame exploit and I didn’t want to do it. And the exact second that the thought “I do want to get better at this game” entered my head, I didn’t want to play it anymore. The game was always unproductive, always just some time-wasting, and I never took it seriously anyway, but because I’m at man at some level I still needed to respect higher levels of play, and feel that I would eventually get there, to enjoy the game.Which is all to say, it might not be oldheads eating new players and making things unfun for them. It might be that your game mechanics suck, and the oldheads exploiting those mechanics is just how new players come to see that.
(DIR) Post #AkRguS1tQ8SbF4IdDk by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:41:35.665990Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I've mercifully saved you from this, but at this point I must interject. The authors have done this a few times, teased a subject which is going to be covered "later in the paper" or some such. It's extremely annoying to me, either cover it now or don't distract me! In any case, that's completely separate from the actual points they are making, so let's continue
(DIR) Post #AkRguSy1vyxs9NV3q4 by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:46:55.590426Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Similarly to the previous graph (covering players returning within 14 days) we see a substantial flip of effects at the highest percentile of player skill. In this case, all but the most skilled players quit more often (up to 6% for the lowest quintile, but less than +2% for most other percentiles). This lines up with the previous data, and I actually do agree with AV here that quit rates correlate strongly with how much subjective fun a player is having. Nobody likes to get their dick stomped in a video game, nobody. HOWEVER - again we see this unsubstantiated and frankly unprofessional argument, one which I should add I'm actually naturally inclined to agree with! There is just no direct data evidence of this claim being true though, however much I want to take them at what seems to be an obvious conclusion
(DIR) Post #AkRguTgLHEPUMoERuK by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:51:36.059097Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
This is perhaps the single graph which explains why SBMM is such a highly discussed topic. Given a decrease in the prevalence of SBMM, the top and bottom players have a massive inversely proportional effect on their Kills Per Minute. This is entirely unsurprising to anyone who has more than a single functioning braincell. The truly interesting part of this to me, is that 60% (!!!) of players have no significant change in their KPM. And if we look at the previous two graphs (included below as well, for your convenience) these are players who are, going by the numbers, also quitting more AND returning to the game less - at astonishingly close rates to that of the bottom quintile players! As for what this tells us about those 60% of players, I'll leave up to the reader to conclude, as I feel my own opinion has been implicated sufficiently to move on now.
(DIR) Post #AkRguUFRAkU07eeTbs by vic@seal.cafe
2024-07-30T04:57:26.128850Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios All I know is I enjoyed autistically doing the same map over and over in TF2, but in competitive Overwatch I got annoyed as each season my average rank went down despite feeling like I was getting better at the game (those who were worse quit, shoving me downward as the top players stayed).I also hated how Overwatch shoved me into games that I was obviously "supposed" to win or "supposed" to lose. I just wanted to play with more-or-less equally matched players and chill. If they had done that in unranked mode, I would have played unranked all the time, but no...They annoying have the ranking system in unranked mode too, I just don't get to see my rank.So yeah. The whole thing felt like psychological manipulation. It was more about chasing a win, a hit of dopamine, than just having fun enjoying the game.
(DIR) Post #AkRheS9zGdXky41MnI by SuperSnekFriend@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:59:11.320878Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios > This gives away what I think it a core bias common in the AAA gamedev industry at the moment: that an increase in playtime means an increase in enjoymentBoy, you can say that again.
(DIR) Post #AkRikPVc8Z8MR9Xcum by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T05:01:42.131012Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
At this point, we've essentially reached the conclusion of the paper in terms of what is relevant to the discussion in the OP. But AV leaves us with some interesting tidbits from their other experimentations, albeit no exact numbers on the affects. - "Subsequent attempts to protect only the bottom 25% of players and allow for looser matchmaking for the remaining 75% of players also had clear negative effects on player counts in two weeks">('negative effects' is vague, I can only guess that the results were similar to those presented earlier in this paper....)- "Quit rate was down for 90% of players [...] However, we observed negative impacts for high-skill players. As a result, this changewas not rolled out as a standard approach">('negative impacts' is concerningly vague here as well, imo) For those curious, here is the link to the full paper if you'd like to continue reading: activision.com/cdn/research/CallofDuty_Matchmaking_Series_2.pdf The topics left in the paper I didn't cover here are:- How is Skill Incorporated into Matchmaking?- Skill Disparity- Team Balance - How Does Skill Impact Other Matchmaking KPIs Across the Skill Spectrum?Next, I'll address what I think is the central miscommunication concerning SBMM in the wake of this paper.
(DIR) Post #AkRj9uZ9nwN1zyMHR2 by professionalbigot69@poa.st
2024-07-30T05:22:38.762557Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios this seems relevant youtube.com/watch?v=WsOsiFbVcFg
(DIR) Post #AkRjYSGg9Xw3TPQ0wK by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T05:04:20.490418Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@vic >those who were worse quit, shoving me downward as the top players stayedyou shouldn't assume this, actually. the skill floor of *all* games increases over time. the playerbase as a whole DOES get better at the games they play, so you may not necessarily have been a victim of a shrinking top-heavy playerbase (which I don't think is true of overwatch) as much as you were not improving at the same rate as the playerbase as a whole. which, to be clear, is no indictment against you. that is a very concerning, but separate, problem for devs and players to grapple with as well.
(DIR) Post #AkRjYThIq2pHuGsn4q by vic@seal.cafe
2024-07-30T05:27:04.214654Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios Possibly. I did take several extended breaks after getting annoyed at the matchmaking system, hoping they'd do something to change it.Then, when I finally understood that the entire purpose was to keep me on a streak, whether winning for "fun" or losing until I "just win one game" so that I put more hours into the game at a time, I quit and haven't looked back. It was the entertainment equivalent of empty calories.I guess it's too much to ask for the old days of joining a server, making pseudo-friends, and just hanging out without all the stat tracking and win/loss machine learning.
(DIR) Post #AkRkwIEZD8U9G1MTWi by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T05:35:51.606583Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
Fundamentally, SBMM is *always* going to be a controversial topic to cover, because talking about objective differences between people is near-taboo. The players at the bottom of the skill curve understandably don't want to get shitstomped by "the top 10%", not realizing that they will get deleted from existence even by someone in the 40th percentile. The players in the middle of the pack aaaaall think they deserve a higher rank than they are, and generally NPC as a pack refusing to learn from their mistakes. In their hubris they end up mimicking a lot of the behaviors of the *actual* scrubs in the bottom quintile. Players who are significantly above average, but not truly the best of the best sometimes buck the trends of the merely average, but sometimes fall back into that mentality. Mentally though, they are extremely similar to the best players in the game, but don't quite make it, whether it be due to lack of talent, or (more likely) they are deficient in dedicated time practicing their weaknesses. These are the quintessential "Diamond players" if you will. The best of the best (for this conversation's sake, the top 10% of players) are *noticeably* different in almost every respect. The data proves it, they're a breed apart, whether it's a result of pure time grinding and improving, natural skill, or (more commonly) a combination of the two. The 'Master / Grandmaster' type players. ("Challenger" or "Top 500" or whatever you want to call that extreme of extreme outliers, I'm specifically ignoring as they are quite literally outside the bounds of what should be considered for this discussion. SBMM quite simply has no effect on them. They are so good, legitimately or otherwise, that they most likely will be winning 55%+ of their games unless you specifically rig games against them with truly impossible odds) "GM" players, having truly put in the time as students of their game, these players want that time and their resulting skill to be respected by the developers. This results in a generally harsh sentiment against SBMM - given the data we saw earlier in the thread this is perhaps understandable from their perspective! "Diamond" players, with attitudes of players yearning to be "GM"s, often agree with those higher players - even to their own detriment! - simply out of principle, or perhaps more often, out of a lack of comprehensive knowledge of the subject. When SBMM is tuned too harshly against players, you feel extremely odd "waves" throughout a daily play session - something present at ANY skill level of play, but extremely exacerbated the higher in skill you are. If you aren't playing at 100% your best every single game (even in casual modes mind!) then you will very slowly see your games get easier and easier to match your (from the system's perspective) unusually low skill gameplay. The reason this is done slowly is to prevent people gaming the system to get easy lobbies forever. However, the *second* you overperform, you topfrag on your team, or even if you stomp the entire lobby, you can know for certain that the majority of your remaining games during that play session are going to be terminally sweaty. For top players, this results in degenerate strategies like leaving games before they end in an attempt to not have your internal skill rating updated, not for you to have easier games, but for you to have games that are decently equal! Otherwise you end up very often paired with extremely bad teammates as the SBMM system does exactly what it is designed to do - put you in increasingly improbable odds of victory until you fail. For lower skill players, SBMM has the effect of being protective hedges for them, they are but little tiny minnows with (quite literally) no chance whatsoever of *ever* killing the enemy players - see picrel 3 and 4, src is modern Bungie's research on SBMM as it relates to the Destiny 2 PVP population, something with which I am keenly familiar.(cont'd..)
(DIR) Post #AkRlvIQN7L7tVpyJ04 by hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info
2024-07-30T05:53:34.065596Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios @vic even an expanding playerbase can result in rank deflation at the lower end, if you find yourself on the left of the bell curve you'll get pushed further out
(DIR) Post #AkRmQxlVSlPchpxOyW by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T05:57:18.272275Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
So we're left at this point: - Devs see SBMM as something to control player retention, and to control the overall balance of a game's PVP ecosystem. In a vacuum, this is fine.- Top players want LESS SBMM, because it is an artificial dampener on their skill. This is understandable, as they don't like being punished for putting in the time to be GOOD at a game. - Mid and Low tier players want MORE SBMM, because it means they can actually play the game. The presence of a single (genuine) top tier player means their keyboard/mouse or controller is functionally turned off for the complete duration of a match. This too, is understandable.- Both the top players and mid/low players are very often not able to accurately convey their criticisms of the system. This leads to endless flame wars and shitslinging. This is unproductive and undesirable, as it means getting to the heart of the issue is made more difficult. - You have ignorant 3rd parties who have no stake in the matter criticizing top players merely as a matter of course, since "punching up MUST be right". These people should be ignored, but they are often extremely good at exploiting the anger of midwits. An unfortunate consequence and perpetuators of the cycle. (see picrel 1) A key miscommunication often perpetuated is that "such-and-such group of top players want SBMM removed from Ranked too! So they can *stomp* players worse than them..." - this should be entirely discounted as untrue, as I have never once seen anyone remotely serious talking about game balancing suggest that SBMM be removed in any capacity from Ranked or Competitive modes in games. So what exactly IS the heart of the issue? My personal suggestion, based off of my experience being extremely mid at some FPS, unquestioningly in the elite in one (for what little that's worth), and having actually tried to study SBMM as it was originally designed for multiplayer environments is this:The current implementation of SBMM in most games today IS able to accurately determine the skill of players, but in its attempts at endlessly increasing playtime as a metric, it fails to provide quality matches for (conservatively) 10% of any given game's population. A possible solution to this would be to dampen the aforementioned "wave" effects to reduce the stressors of having to sweat your balls off in casual modes, without completely ruining the experience for lower skilled players either. Additionally, many SBMM implementations seem to aim for as close to a 50% win rate for each player as possible, with an increase in skill bracket directly correlated almost exclusively to this one statistic, this seems to be a dire mistake as it's disliked in implementation by players of most skill levels (as an example, see picrel 2). As such, implementations with this goal in mind should probably significantly lessen the weighting of this goal in the internal metrics of the SBMM implementation. Honestly, there are other issues I could've pointed out with modern SBMM implementations as well, but honestly I think I've made my point decently enough and I've certainly put enough words into poasts for today. If you have any further questions, either about any of the papers talked about in this or the previous thread, or about my opinions on said papers / problems with SBMM currently / how we can start working to fix them, I would be happy to do so. However, fair warning, if you're obviously asking a question in bad faith having obviously not read the things you're asking about, I *will* simply block you. I hope this thread has been enlightening to the few of you who've read the whole thing. Cheers
(DIR) Post #AkRmQzHnoAq9QI4hxA by professionalbigot69@poa.st
2024-07-30T05:59:20.310690Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios as long as devs continue to foot the bill for running game servers, sbmm is here to staygg no re
(DIR) Post #AkRmkfLtdF19OHNCiG by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T04:19:59.836060Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@WhitestTemplar this exact comment was said in the replies of my original thread and i'm NOT typing out the response i did there again. begone
(DIR) Post #AkRn5EDphD9NKUPGeu by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T06:06:36.953476Z
5 likes, 1 repeats
This is basically just a value judgement on whether or not you think pushing the game itself to its very limits to improve and play it optimally is enjoyable or not and you decided it wasn’t. It has little to do with if the game’s mechanics are good or not and more to do with if you are ok with actually playing the game at its highest level.You would hate Melee.
(DIR) Post #AkRnTKZ5lTrdx3qLDM by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T06:10:57.998534Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
There is nothing wrong with deciding it’s not for you btw, but this is why sbmm exists. Players who don’t care to push the game to It’s limits can exist in an ecosystem with a meta that is entirely different than what the game actually is. That is, as long as sbmm is functioning.
(DIR) Post #AkRqCV3tmgIDRkv2Ke by apropos
2024-07-30T06:41:33.423382Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@deVoid @merchantHelios no, what I'm saying is that once you decide against "pushing the game itself to its very limits", the game loses a lot of appeal because you are no longer open to mastering it. Therefore, the limits of the mechanics should also be appealing, to avoid that fun-killing decision.
(DIR) Post #AkRqkHjRqnkLx0Smoa by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T06:47:38.946680Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
Ngl that’s kinda dumb
(DIR) Post #AkRr4alQnePOlk4eCO by wan@poa.st
2024-07-30T06:28:52.807999Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios Thank you. That was a good dip into something I've never had reason to think about very much.
(DIR) Post #AkRrHjKgFmGl6mpI9Y by Witch_Hunter_Siegfired@poa.st
2024-07-30T06:53:42.061185Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@apropos @merchantHelios What was the game if I may ask.
(DIR) Post #AkRrNFxqMCo3lHmOg4 by rher@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T06:54:39.902860Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Good read as always, thank you Merchantman
(DIR) Post #AkRrTF9MIVSWyR1KdM by DrRyanSkelton@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T06:55:45.847961Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios confirmed the jews invented SBMM to keep the Aryan man from dabbing on the browns in shootan but strangely not out of spite but to sell weed flavored battle pass items to the only race dumb enough to buy them.
(DIR) Post #AkRsbjqMACQmRGkNMW by not_benis@cawfee.club
2024-07-30T07:08:30.316191Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios I'm guessing they're referring to the low-skill burnout effect mentioned a few poasts prior
(DIR) Post #AkRuCAVSbn0nVmuMbI by merchantHelios@poa.st
2024-07-30T07:16:00.309577Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@not_benis yes, my complaint isn't that it's an idea which is unrealistic, but rather that it isn't being supported by direct evidence in the paper itself. just "this is an effect that happens. it WILL happen in XYZ case" - which I feel is a perfectly legitimate complaint
(DIR) Post #AkRuCBnZnv65WGOLTc by not_benis@cawfee.club
2024-07-30T07:26:17.001012Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios I believe those are called axioms in real science
(DIR) Post #AkRzIvuJml2u20a1QG by coded_artist@gameliberty.club
2024-07-30T08:23:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios This is one of those things that are so obvious and self evident, only a university educated person would try to "study" it.What will happen if Olympic athletes compete against middle-schoolers?What will happen if we let men in women's sports?Biggest "no shit, Sherlock" ever.Good thread though.
(DIR) Post #AkRzMO9zCOjYWZYYYS by Arkana@poa.st
2024-07-30T06:02:02.310247Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios This image always holds true
(DIR) Post #AkSNj5uFd7enTIYXqq by veff@poa.st
2024-07-30T12:57:12.335860Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@apropos @merchantHelios Thank you for this. I'm glad I'm not crazy. You also demonstrate a reason why I think fighting games have a better support system with SBMM than shooters: mechanical variety and variable skill floors/ceilingsWhen I played Tekken I found the general mechanics to be fairly simple (Korean backdashing is not as hard as other necessary mechanics) and so I could choose a character that "fit my hands" without worrying about universal stuff. I ended up really liking Bryan's playstyle because it felt unconventional, but in a manageable and threatening way. I really really wanted to like Hwoarang because I learned some taekwondo irl and stance characters are a very interesting concept, but I found him to be way too burdensome and inconsistent in practice. Same general conclusion with street fighter: I like basic ryu/ken but I understand why players guile and dhalsim because they're somehow even more basic. I don't mind it because their simplicity makes them generally worse tier characters because you're playing a puzzle to be solved, and not the evolving mind of a real opponent.On the contrary, games like Smash have problems on both ends. Melee requires destroying controllers with L-cancelling just to be barely competent, and Ultimate has characters like Samus which have low skill floors and ceilings yet still regularly dominate the meta. I feel like shooters can fall into either of those two camps, like CS being like melee and CoD being like ultimate.
(DIR) Post #AkSOdsvkXvyLjZKxWa by Goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital
2024-07-30T11:57:43.357990Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Basically it's a tale as old as gaming: Pro level players want to avoid burnout, the bottom level players want a chance to win, and the rest just want to make excuses for why they are hardstuck. Thanks for dissecting this so I didn't have to do it myself. ​​​
(DIR) Post #AkSOduOr5CqeI7xiWu by sapphire@shortstacksran.ch
2024-07-30T13:07:23.297013Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Goalkeeper @merchantHelios nobody wants SSBM. Just let me join a server and become part of a community that fucks around Games are supposed to be fun. In the words of a goofy exec: if it isn’t fun, why bother?
(DIR) Post #AkSP3kFhQzPALe01fk by Goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital
2024-07-30T13:10:11.027174Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Companies don't want to run servers anymore. Everything is peer to peer. Those communities are dead and buried. You can thank streamer culture.
(DIR) Post #AkSP3lOxA4OvudKvjc by sapphire@shortstacksran.ch
2024-07-30T13:12:04.357693Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Goalkeeper @merchantHelios more like niggers and trannies spend more money on games than we do, and we rightfully excluded those “people” from communities for a reason
(DIR) Post #AkSPMKsA1GfV8Wr0Yi by Goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital
2024-07-30T13:14:33.615514Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Again. Running a server meant you could filter those people out. That isn't even an option because the infrastructure doesn't exist so you can't just find a server you vibe with and stay there.
(DIR) Post #AkSPMLmscO2RyROIy0 by sapphire@shortstacksran.ch
2024-07-30T13:15:27.991426Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Goalkeeper @merchantHelios I’m aware, I’m just offering the real explanation why: the systems golems are more entitled to entertainment than you are
(DIR) Post #AkSPZEuHVli8Olzzvs by Goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital
2024-07-30T13:16:25.856093Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
they will buy it anyway
(DIR) Post #AkSPZFwRfD2Hbm1Ewa by sapphire@shortstacksran.ch
2024-07-30T13:17:46.371678Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Goalkeeper @merchantHelios they enjoy this shit, otherwise it wouldn’t be made Movies are made for eunuchs and slavesGames are made for eunuchs and slavesAll entertainment is made for trannies and niggersEnjoy your bread while it lasts, because there are no more circuses for you white man
(DIR) Post #AkSY8NtWsz8K2hutEG by apropos
2024-07-30T14:53:50.056382Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deVoid @merchantHelios it's 2050, a fully immersive VR game comes out, and an "accidental mechanic" is discovered: if you suck another guy's cock in game, you do an overpowering 10% more damage for the rest of the day.Should a game deva. praise gamers for discovering this part of the game, that even the dev was unaware ofb. change the mechanic because it'll cause people to decide they don't want such an easy and large damage bonus, which alone will cause them to stop caring about the gameShould a playera. suck cocks all day, and also try sucking them in different ways to hopefully discover new mechanicsb. ban this gay shit from tournaments and tell the dev to fix it instead of adding it to the tutorial
(DIR) Post #AkSofapjOp7KzhzsZ6 by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T17:59:06.334465Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
That’s crazy you had to invent a situation that would never happen (people playing VR games, VR games being more than tech demos) to not look dumb
(DIR) Post #AkSoqDck23IECFzJJI by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T18:01:01.347816Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
You could have just used an actual example along these lines that actually happened in the real world. Halo 2 button combos would have been a perfect example. Instead you couldnt think of a good example and resorted to sucking dick.
(DIR) Post #AkSpRdyb17HIds3WTI by apropos
2024-07-30T18:07:48.016566Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@deVoid @merchantHelios I started with an actual example and you didn't get it, so I created an extreme example to help you understand that this is a possibility at all.
(DIR) Post #AkSpzuIuojZj7xtk1o by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T18:13:58.755321Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
In many cases the playerbase or developers find unintended behaviors that they think add to the game instead of make it less fun too, you know. Rocket jumping, combos in all fighting games (originally a glitch found in development of SF2), basically anything you can do in Melee, etc etc etc. There is a degree of seperation between that, and something thats just more damage all the time for the cost of an arbitrary execution check 99% of the playerbase will never do. Anything that limits actual player expression and isnt fun to do should be removed, but anything that objectively adds to the game at the cost of raising the skill ceiling of the game? Thats something the developers have to question if they think its good for the game or not. By that point the playerbase already will have had an opinion on it if the exploit was found post-development. If its fun or cool they'll probably want to keep it, if it actively makes the game less enjoyable or is almost cheating they'll probably want to get rid of it. Thats how it is in reality.
(DIR) Post #AkSq89YA18OgjDxdEe by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T18:15:28.251534Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
The only time this isnt the case is when a game's development has ended, or the game is never patched. Then you just have to deal with it and decide for yourself if its fun.
(DIR) Post #AkSqSFgku5cjYhZ5cW by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T18:19:06.081174Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
This is why I think you're dumb if its not clear>what I'm saying is that once you decide against "pushing the game itself to its very limits", the game loses a lot of appeal because you are no longer open to mastering it.The complete opposite is true for a lot of people.
(DIR) Post #AkSqdiZZqxLUKKftdw by apropos
2024-07-30T18:21:11.244675Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@deVoid @merchantHelios yeah, I agree with all of that. My original point was that, when you see your more skilled players chasing off other players, one reason can be that some of your unintended behaviors suck. That's a thing to consider in addition to "people don't like losing too hard"I've run into other experience often as well, Subspace Continuum is full of weird bullshit that's still interesting, and you'll run into immediately because anyone playing that game has been playing it for 30 years.
(DIR) Post #AkSroob1tlLI9ED36e by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-30T18:34:23.011199Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Man I forgot about subspace continuum, I played a bit of that and thought it was cool.Yea there’s really no fix to this, you just inevitably have to either accept that the top level of your playerbase is going to be way better than your casuals and play a completely different game, or shoot that part of the playerbase in favor of casual appeal. The latter has better short term reward (more people buying and playing the game initially) but you make your hardcore playerbase mad, worse longevity. The former affects the average casual much less (unless your game is truly broken) and this is why even in games with no tech everything is balanced around the highest level of play. If the game isnt being played at the highest level, changes directed at the highest level dont affect the average player (even if they think it does). When those two playerbases collide and the hardcore playerbase is just mopping the floor with everyone else every lobby and the game is decided by 2 gods death matching with fodder scattered around the map… that’s why we have SBMM.
(DIR) Post #AkTO3eTX0VC3dRowwC by Netoraremancer@poa.st
2024-07-31T00:35:38.057533Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deVoid @apropos @merchantHelios I'd say players are bad at deciding what's good for the game. I knew some no-name smash melee player with like one sponsor who blew out half the cartilage in his hands and he's not even out of medschool yet.
(DIR) Post #AkTOvVmnWta2K7Vz2O by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-31T00:45:21.416903Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Bad technique
(DIR) Post #AkTP2indXmqoiALSu8 by Netoraremancer@poa.st
2024-07-31T00:46:40.065630Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deVoid @apropos @merchantHelios This is nowhere near as ergonomic as this.
(DIR) Post #AkTPF5VkvdHmcosW1I by deVoid@mugicha.club
2024-07-31T00:48:53.996866Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Smash players make this choice themselves.
(DIR) Post #AsV4UfOQiNVCX7TCC0 by doonxib@poa.st
2024-07-30T07:22:31.442836Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@merchantHelios If it's a White sheet released for promotional purposes, than it's a lie. Basically an ad dolled up a scientific paper. In this case they're trying to imply their matchmaking services are so competent they're actually commercially essential for the success of what is a flagship IP with massive fan following. This inherently "stinks" on the face value of the assertion.