Post AkJxDM4povBCHi23eq by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
(DIR) More posts by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
(DIR) Post #AkD7R9ls0ciRbkf6DA by herag@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T04:13:58Z
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#Flatpak can die in a hole, not all of use can install a whole operating system everytime we want to install an application.We won't even talk about #Snap and its closed source/open source model. Trash.
(DIR) Post #AkDCDsPHl0pFlAaKeW by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T05:07:35Z
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@herag guix and nix offer better solutions for running alternate versions of libraries and binaries.
(DIR) Post #AkDYnph7W7LmlRTfOa by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-23T09:20:33Z
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@herag If we only had a packaging system with file-grained deduplication like Git's... oh wait, it's Flatpak
(DIR) Post #AkDgrg8xlhKzvyqUHg by herag@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T10:50:57Z
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@alxlgWhy would we want what ever you're talking about? What's wrong with the normal way of having programs on my computer?
(DIR) Post #AkDqkK4iQ3Mt0KzRAG by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-23T12:41:39Z
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@herag Every program has specific dependencies so there are 3 options: (1) package only software that can be integrated in a single dependency graph (2) duplicate dependencies by bundling them with each program or (3) like (2) but with a deduplication mechanism that leads to (1)'s efficiency (almost)
(DIR) Post #AkDsghSVjjmoHIWJsW by herag@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T13:03:24Z
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@alxlgI like option 1. Then again... I am using Slackware and have for the last 15 years. So maybe I'm not the target audience of FlatPak. There is a 4th option though. Maybe stop using 600 libraries for every program and make computers suck less. Computers suck because of developers that want to use every library known to man to build their programs. I know that's a losing battle though. Laziness is a hard thing to beat.
(DIR) Post #AkDzpF4RLtiAWEHWi0 by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-23T14:22:51Z
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@herag Sure, why using Git when you can just copy folders
(DIR) Post #AkEXP6yMEdXwJc9FT6 by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-23T09:19:34Z
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@bobdobberson @herag Why better? Flatpak uses a content-addressable storage too
(DIR) Post #AkEXP8NZ0PIqg4wtOa by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T19:57:58Z
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@alxlg @herag I say better out of ignorance. I think nix and guix offer simpler solutions which is closer to the whole KISS unix principle.
(DIR) Post #AkEXP9jDzMDwrY5hnU by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-23T20:32:01Z
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@bobdobberson @herag Guix and Nix don't look simpler to me, they are entirely different OSs compared to other distros (they aren't following the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard and are forced to eventually "emulate" it). Everything needs to be repackaged for Nix/Guix, while Flatpak is just an additional step to deploy third party apps and not the entire OS. Flatpak is basically "bundle all the packages needed by an app together and deduplicate by file once installed" plus a permission system.
(DIR) Post #AkEXPApdsyx4Hk6LRI by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-23T20:37:00Z
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@bobdobberson @herag And the storage system used by Flatpak, OSTree, powers also Fedora Atomic versions. And its evolution, ComposeFS, will bring the same deduplication to Podman container images too and power the evolution of Fedora Atomic based on bootable containers. I also heard that NixOS may adopt ComposeFS too.
(DIR) Post #AkEXPC11U9eJxKQwoi by herag@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T20:39:37Z
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@alxlgI get this part of it. I do. I don't understand why we need it.... It is possible that I'm just getting old, I guess. I like my 13 year old laptop... I want it to keep working so that I don't have to use the new junk that they sell these days.@bobdobberson
(DIR) Post #AkFESwpYBHWy316X44 by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-24T04:42:08Z
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@herag @bobdobberson For the same reason Git and Docker exist: having slightly different versions of something without wasting resources. And Git/OSTree deduplication based on files is more efficient than Docker's one based on layers.This means efficient atomic updates, automatic boot from a previous version in case the new one doesn't boot, background updates for system and apps that can't interfere with your work, composable custom OS like uBlue's, cryptographically sealed devices...
(DIR) Post #AkJxDM4povBCHi23eq by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-23T20:38:21Z
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@alxlg @herag both nix and guix can be used on any linux flavor. They may advertise them as an OS or distribution. Nix is also fairly easy to install as a non-privileged user, and was something I was looking at to supplement Slackware 15 at one point.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDNLt50PkEt1BsO by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-24T05:17:02Z
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@bobdobberson @herag I know but the same use case implemented with containers means Distrobox, that is basically 3 commands: create, enter, export. And you can combine any distro, for example an Arch container for updated tools, Ubuntu to install .deb packages, KDE Neon to try latest versions of KDE apps etc.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDOLvMM2PLI2jZY by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-24T19:34:31Z
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@alxlg @herag the issue I have with containers is that containers typically require some process running as root to manage the containers.I have seen examples where containers have been compromised, giving the attacker higher level access through flaws in the containerization and its infrastructure.Layers of abstraction are gross.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDPEW5Nhs4baKfI by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-24T20:23:12Z
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@bobdobberson @herag User namespaces have been added to Linux kernel more than 10 years ago and Podman uses them. It's just Docker that doesn't *by default*.Containers are an application platform, not a sandbox.What layers of abstractions? Namespaces just mean the kernel is replying to certain syscalls by showing less processes in the tree. It's just a filter by the kernel.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDQ0jC8GsU88poO by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-24T20:39:09Z
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@alxlg @herag My goal is to run a program -- one that isn't installed on my system by the admin.The easiest solution is to download the source, and build it myself, and install it in my user directory.That is easily complicated due to library requirements and other dependencies.Nix/guix solve this problem by allowing me to build the tools I need, and their dependencies, without requiring any intervention by the system admin.Containers do a lot more that I do not need for my use-case.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDQjkUkHejlCmzA by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-24T22:00:45Z
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@bobdobberson @herag Are you really not realizing Nix and Guix let you do so exactly because they cover more than containers, i.e. they are a build system, package managers and a deploy method? Containers cover just the last thing and it is perfectly fine to build container images with Nix or Guix. Guix even has a built in command for that.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDRDsgiO2FDIqx6 by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-24T22:04:53Z
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@alxlg @herag are you not realizing that containers also cover being a build system and package manager?Just because you download something pre-compiled doesn't mean that your pipeline doesn't involve compiling something.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDRmGcrtNxrOJY8 by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-24T22:14:05Z
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@bobdobberson @herag No, they don't at all. Most containers images are built with a Dockerfile that has lines like RUN sudo apt install <package>.Containers used just Linux kernel built-in features to turn Unix-like systems into an application platform where you are totally free to assemble that system in whatever way you like: with a distro package manager, with package managers like npm, pip etc, with a build system, with Nix/Guix, manually...
(DIR) Post #AkJxDSUvwncaCOHzAe by bobdobberson@dobbs.town
2024-07-24T22:47:01Z
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@alxlg @herag cool. So whatever distro you are pulling packages from compiled those packages.If I could apt-get the package I needed, then I would not have need for guix or nix.Or a container.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDT0U3UrHmF3BLc by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-25T04:39:31Z
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@bobdobberson @herag In fact you misunderstood what containers are. They are not an alternative to packages. They are a further step in deployment and are called "containers" because they have a standard format that allows them to be managed independently of their content and in an efficient way, just like real containers.The point is that you don't need Nix/Guix to solve the dependency hell. And given the disadvantages of Nix/Guix, you need better reasons to use them than dependency hell.
(DIR) Post #AkJxDTs0qTg0SG5vma by herag@dobbs.town
2024-07-26T11:22:21Z
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@alxlgI don't experience dependency hell because I don't use programs that are poorly programmed and that need 600 dependencies. Any program that has an install and compile requirement that is unreasonably massive is trash. The programmers should be entirely ashamed and then executed in the public square.@bobdobberson
(DIR) Post #AkKCK7Fcq8KvdslGMa by alxlg@mastodon.social
2024-07-26T14:11:31Z
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@herag @bobdobberson You have no idea of what you are talking about. Dynamically linked libraries are what made Linux distros win on servers, indeed they bring security and performance enanchement.
(DIR) Post #AkKCXcmstpGtDPl8uO by herag@dobbs.town
2024-07-26T14:14:09Z
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@alxlgBahaha okay loser@bobdobberson