Post Ak5eP3TKCVGAiOuhyC by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #Ak4mRavFPPr5Vvji1A by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T03:41:01Z
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Determinism is a philosophical concept that suggests every event or state of affairs, including every human decision and action, is determined by preceding events or conditions, and therefore could not have occurred differently. It implies that the future is entirely predictable if one knew all the relevant factors at any given time. This idea has implications across various fields, including philosophy, physics, psychology, and ethics.
(DIR) Post #Ak4nQ2o4rf7FN3CuC8 by skua@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T03:51:59Z
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@Radical_EgoCom This intersects with "free will", the butterfly effect, and the set-up for Schrodinger's cat.
(DIR) Post #Ak4pGkgX4SuGTANIpM by dwalin_7@piaille.fr
2024-07-19T04:12:40Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I often jokingly speak of myself as a 'quantum determinist' because I think you just have to add statistics to your definition. Probabilities everywhere!
(DIR) Post #Ak4rnOykziBWc7azb6 by from_d4rkness@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T04:41:02Z
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@Radical_EgoCom While I agree with the idea that all the events before, if repeated, will produce the same result. I do not think humans will ever create a tool that can measure this, and I do not think that knowing that it would produce the same result is useful to anyone when there is no way to ever observe the amount of data needed to make any kind of prediction. You would have to be able to know every tiny detail, including the direction of the spin of electrons associated with every atom.
(DIR) Post #Ak4vLYlFQlyCf2FwdU by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T05:20:49Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I just woke up, that quote seems related If not I blame my sleepiness.
(DIR) Post #Ak5WASKYhBDDpsLCiG by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2024-07-19T12:13:22Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Chaos Theory and Schrödinger’s theory, well quantum mechanics in general, pretty much rules out Determinism being a thing.
(DIR) Post #Ak5XHzgx9pe9HiySdU by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T12:25:50Z
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@lordsplodge This isn't necessarily true. Chaos Theory and Quantum Mechanics do introduce a form of unpredictability into deterministic systems, but they do not completely rule out determinism as a philosophical concept. Chaos Theory only suggests that our ability to predict the future is severely limited, and Quantum Mechanics only pertains to Quantum events, not things on a marcoscopic scale. Neither disprove the deterministic claim that all events, including every human decision and...
(DIR) Post #Ak5XInpWkEDKmnN0wS by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T12:26:00Z
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@lordsplodge ...action, are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws.
(DIR) Post #Ak5cSl8C8Kwd59fWbY by teacherjasonthailand@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T13:23:40Z
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@Radical_EgoCom determinism disputes chaotic effects of complexity, which have been well-established.
(DIR) Post #Ak5eP3TKCVGAiOuhyC by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T13:45:36Z
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@teacherjasonthailand No, they don't. Complexity and chaotic effects only suggest that it's impossible or just very hard to predict future events with 100% accuracy. Determinism suggests that all events, including human actions and thoughts, are predetermined by past actions and events. Complexity and chaos don't dispute determinism at all.
(DIR) Post #Ak5ehl4yoB2PAoRe4W by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T13:48:53Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Einstein famously insisted that "God does not play dice with the universe", but decades of quantum theory has prettymuch proven that, on some level at least, random chance does, indeed, govern the universe. There will always be some amount of random chance that plays into everything, therefore determinism is impossible regardless of how much human beings would prefer to believe in the orderliness of the universe.
(DIR) Post #Ak5f3rNo3I7x5vn1cW by libris@donphan.social
2024-07-19T13:52:57Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I accept determinism in physics, although, as has been mentioned by others, quantum effects add complexity to it.But on a human scale, determinism challenges the idea of free will, and that is not a useful way to look at the world. Even if the world is strictly deterministic, the human experience is not. We cannot let the sense that we have no control over our circumstances and our actions keep us from trying to be better people and lead better lives.
(DIR) Post #Ak5fLYMfV62FK4h6eG by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T13:55:46Z
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@tstrike78 Determinism proposes that all events are determined by preceding events or conditions, making it impossible for them to have occurred differently. Whether those preceeding events were chaotic or not has no bearing on the claims of determinism, and some or even all of these preceding events being chaotic wouldn't disprove the deterministic claim that all events are determined by past events.
(DIR) Post #Ak5fVmLWN9pTa728si by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T13:57:13Z
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@libris Why isn't the human experience deterministic?
(DIR) Post #Ak5gEMeClZ5wuT25k8 by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:05:16Z
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@Radical_EgoCom That makes no sense. Chaos is defined, on a basic level, as predictability that breaks down over time (and therefore becomes unpredictable). But if determinism is defined as all events being determined by previous events so that chains of events could not have occurred any other way, that should be predictable on some level (even if we humans can't do it). The universe cannot be both predictable and unpredictable at the same time.
(DIR) Post #Ak5gYpj2Mfygsw3MxM by libris@donphan.social
2024-07-19T14:09:19Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Because we make conscious choices. It doesn't matter whether our choices are predetermined; we still need to make them. Free will may or may not be fundamentally “real,” but it is something we experience. You could call it an emergent property of self-awareness.
(DIR) Post #Ak5h9i4hlvbxs7lx6e by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:15:07Z
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@tstrike78 1/2 The universe can be predictable in a sense that, theoretically, it could be possible to predict every event in the universe if one were to have absolute knowledge of every event in the past and present, and unpredictable to us if we will never be able to attain the necessary abilities required to predict every single event in the universe. So, overall, the events of the universe could be deterministic and predictable, but from our limited perspective, it could appear chaotic...
(DIR) Post #Ak5h9m4Uudp2GdhqL2 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:15:17Z
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@tstrike78 2/2 ...and unpredictable, but our subjective and limited perception would be incorrect and incomplete.
(DIR) Post #Ak5hSlV7G5T202DDjk by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:18:31Z
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@libris We make conscious choices, but those choices are based on past events that are completely out of our range of control, and those events can not be change since they are in the past, so us being able to make conscious decisions doesn't disprove determinism since those very decisions are deterministic themselves.
(DIR) Post #Ak5jsl3LkJ9c32kMca by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:42:43Z
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@Radical_EgoCom That's where we disagree. What you're describing is a theory of determinism itself, but quantum theory tells us that on a subatomic level it is simply impossible to make predictions past a certain level of accuracy. Not beyond our current ability, flatly impossible. All you can do is approximate probabilities. So that means there will always be an element of random chance and unpredictability in everything that happens.
(DIR) Post #Ak5jwz1ziXkIYi7ysq by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2024-07-19T14:43:45Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Was I pre-determined to reply to this? Shrug 🤷♀️ I mean it’s hard to prove. If a butterfly flapping its wings in New York can affect the weather in Bristol then if there is determinism then it’s clearly a higher power than mortals could comprehend. The universe Herself may have that as a plan for us all.
(DIR) Post #Ak5k2goQMrEPn8V8sa by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2024-07-19T14:44:41Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Quantum mechanics only affects the quantum level for now. We will see if the unified theory arrives in our time.
(DIR) Post #Ak5kf4JBSSOdfSBnc0 by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:47:48Z
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@Radical_EgoCom The existence of Hawking Radiation emanating from black holes is a pretty good example of this. We actually *can* predict that in a broad, general sense, but the smaller you get in scale the more difficult it becomes to make predictions about individual particles because it comes down to random chance.
(DIR) Post #Ak5kf4xF3WRHfgvn3A by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:50:23Z
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@tstrike78 1/2 The existence of random chance and unpredictability don't disprove determinism. Determinism simply states that due to the fact that past events influence current and future events, it is impossible for such things as free will to exist because any action that humans make will have been influenced by past actions that they had no control over, and that the nature of those past actions are what caused the outcome of the current ones.
(DIR) Post #Ak5kf5gGM8S3vJzkDw by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:50:33Z
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@tstrike78 2/2 Whether those past actions were based on random chance are irrelevant to the philosophical position of determinism.
(DIR) Post #Ak5kzlrbENGIXj9tse by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T14:54:18Z
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@lordsplodge Why are you talking about the universe as if it were a thinking agent, or is it just hyperbole?
(DIR) Post #Ak5lnHwMl5DODX03X6 by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2024-07-19T15:01:38Z
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@Radical_EgoCom If determinism is a thing, then what determines our actions? I do not know the universes intentions or of it is or isn’t a thinking entity.
(DIR) Post #Ak5nJ9UxmTRBFuwLq4 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T15:16:56Z
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@lordsplodge Determinism suggests that every event, including human actions, is determined by prior causes in a chain of causality. Essentially, our actions are the inevitable outcome of these causal factors interacting over time and that our actions aren't freely chosen in a way that is independent of these influences, negating the concept of free will.You don't know if the universe is a thinking agent with intentions, and the time to think it is is when there's evidence to believe so.
(DIR) Post #Ak5sav54chhlWX7csy by skua@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T16:14:49Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @tstrike78 This where dualists and mentalist such as #Penrose provide a different view.AIUI they have Mind as being able to alter the probability of neurons firing.#Dualism #Monism #Gradualism #Sciencism
(DIR) Post #Ak5snRZ1g4kXk96VJA by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T16:17:09Z
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@Radical_EgoCom It's the "it couldn't have happened any other way" part that I have an issue with because it absolutely could have depending on random chance. I have no problem with the idea that past events influence current and future events--that much is obvious--but I don't think that's necessarily *determinative* of human beings' actions and I don't think that robs the decision-maker of power to influence the outcome of events. Random chance does play a role in that part.
(DIR) Post #Ak5v2QuEbcmjxGIcCm by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T16:39:38Z
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@tstrike78 1/2 I don't know why you keep focusing on random chance as if it disprove determinism when I already explained why the introduction of random chance doesn't negate or disprove determinism. Yes, random chance exists and is prevalent in the universe. Humans can also consciously make decisions. These human actions, however, are caused by past biological and environmental actions, and no matter what we do, we will never be able to make a decision that goes against the current that...
(DIR) Post #Ak5v2TRz96yFqW6b5c by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T16:39:49Z
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@tstrike78 2/2 ...those past actions have created, no matter how much we feel as though we have free will.
(DIR) Post #Ak5xcVok1SeVWL3s4u by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T17:04:34Z
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@Radical_EgoCom It sounds like that's what our disagreement is, then. I do not believe in determinism because random chance exists; you believe random chance and chaos are irrelevent. That's fine. That's just our fundamental point of disagreement.
(DIR) Post #Ak5yErfPEe9QI0yzg0 by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2024-07-19T17:11:28Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Where does this chain of causality come from? Are my actions determined from birth? My decision to cycle to the pub this evening, why does determinism determine that? I’m not going to say it’s determined by the Universe or any deity. However something must determine why our actions must follow set patents without free will.
(DIR) Post #Ak5yWkwQyjiidyTkga by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T17:15:34Z
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@lordsplodge I'm not going to sit here and answer these questions when I've already given the best explanation of determinism I could give. Just research it yourself of you're so interested.
(DIR) Post #Ak5zees1XDNa5LkQWO by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T17:26:54Z
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@tstrike78 I don't believe random chance and chaos are irrelevant. I acknowledged their existence as parts of the universe and explained why their existence doesn't disprove determinism.
(DIR) Post #Ak60JoXiTfUNxNsFAu by lordsplodge@brettspiel.space
2024-07-19T17:34:03Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Fair enough.
(DIR) Post #Ak63vyO0czflLuDjZQ by dzwiedziu@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T18:16:22Z
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@Radical_EgoComDeterminism, schmeterminism. Even if true we don't have the capabilities to gather all the knowledge to make predictions work.This however doesn't stop surveillance capitalism from trying (but remember how NSA choked on all call data gathered).
(DIR) Post #Ak66CixVRKu4KtwIN6 by greybeard@social.vivaldi.net
2024-07-19T18:45:11Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Like economics, a pseudoscience at best, like tying stock market trends to the length of women's skirts in a particular fashion year.
(DIR) Post #Ak66mtiUv4eK7tATsu by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T18:51:49Z
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@greybeard What exactly do you find pseudoscientific about determinism?
(DIR) Post #Ak6D2h5sDcHHKq18pE by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T20:08:25Z
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@lxo The presence of quantum randomness doesn't negate determinism at higher levels of organization, like with macroscopic systems or human decision-making. Even if microscopic events are probabilistic, macroscopic phenomena are determined by statistical averages and by the accumulation of many probabilistic events.
(DIR) Post #Ak6JyNOQDu8Wkra7IO by libris@donphan.social
2024-07-19T21:30:22Z
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@Radical_EgoCom That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that determinism is not a *useful* way to talk about everyday human experience. It doesn't matter whether free will exists or not, we *experience* free will. Determinism can lead to people disregarding the weight of their choices and actions; it can serve as a scapegoat when we cause negative outcomes. The philosophical debate is interesting, but it does not—and should not—affect how we make our choices.
(DIR) Post #Ak6MaeWRBXcOnDi56e by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T22:00:31Z
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@libris 1/4 Determinism doesn't "cause" anything, at least not in the way you're implying it does. Determinism, if true, is just a philosophical concept that explains reality in the universe and how it functions. Whether a person accepting determinism will lead to them disregarding the weight of their choices or using it as a scapegoat for negative outcomes will solely depend on that person, their life experiences, and personal beliefs. To speak for myself, I believe in determinism, and...
(DIR) Post #Ak6Mejuz46a6gc8kzY by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T22:01:07Z
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@libris 2/3 ...I don't disregard the weight of my actions nor do I use determinism as a scapegoat for negative outcomes in my life. I consider the consequences of all my actions and put the blame for negative consequences of actions on the party for whom it is the fault of, rather than blaming it on determinism and wiping my hands and mind of it. I see determinism as a very useful way of talking about the human experience because, based on my studying of determinism and comparing it to...
(DIR) Post #Ak6MifSNaugI0YdMHY by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T22:01:40Z
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@libris 3/3 ...reality, it appears to be true, and if it is true then it is far more useful in explaining and discussing the human experience as opposed to a view of humanity that falsely suggest the existence of free will solely because it makes us feel good. In order to derive an accurate analysis of the human experience, one must use methodologies that contort to reality, not ones that make us "feel better."
(DIR) Post #Ak6TcS3dCNO4OQ2bWS by libris@donphan.social
2024-07-19T23:19:32Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I think you've misunderstood me again.1. I said “determinism can cause” as a shorthand for “believing in determinism can.” I thought that was clear, but I'm sorry if it wasn't.2. I said “can,” not “does”; that is, it is possible to use determinism as a scapegoat. If you don't, that's great, but I've heard determinism used as an argument that “our choices don't matter,” which I find counterproductive. 3. I'm sure determinism can be an effective tool in retrospective analysis, seeing circumstances as causes and choices as effects. But to me, that is like analyzing the human body as a bag of chemicals: true and helpful in specific circumstances, but not generally useful in describing the human experience.
(DIR) Post #Ak6TlUkuXKkVMob4jI by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T23:21:04Z
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@lxo But determinism isn't presented as a scientific concept. It's purely a philosophical concept that can sometimes intersect into scientific discussions, so it isn't pseudoscientific. In order for a concept to be pseudoscientific, it would have to be presented as a scientific concept while lacking any of the characteristics that would qualify it as being scientific, which determinism doesn't do.
(DIR) Post #Ak6UoWrjFRwkjYnS8e by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-19T23:32:56Z
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@libris The human experience is a product of our bodies, various parts that all abide by the laws of biology, physics, and other sciences, interacting with other objects in the areas of the universe we have access to. Given that every other thing in the universe made up of the materials within the universe can be described through a deterministic view, I see no reason why the human experience, which is also derived from those same materials, can't also be viewed through that same view.
(DIR) Post #Ak6fzjRXvLNAQM5uoC by thylacoleo@mas.to
2024-07-20T01:38:12Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @libris My free will determines that I agree with both of you.
(DIR) Post #Ak6lRqwC9YjjXwetTU by JeremyMallin@autistics.life
2024-07-20T02:39:19Z
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@Radical_EgoCom@Radical_EgoCom Third option should be "not sure/don't know".
(DIR) Post #Ak6lnrnBejaeZHwTRY by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-20T02:43:18Z
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@JeremyMallin It's a binary choice. Either someone agrees with something or they do not agree with that something. If they aren't sure, then that would qualify them as not agreeing with that something, so people who aren't sure if they agree with determinism can just say they don't agree with it since they would currently be in a state where they don't agree with it.
(DIR) Post #Ak6m7O3furjw8oxj8K by JeremyMallin@autistics.life
2024-07-20T02:46:49Z
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@Radical_EgoComI disagree. There can be an objectively correct answer to that question and someone simply does not know what that answer is. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of what is or isn't true.
(DIR) Post #Ak6mWWXfVjT5h0ygBk by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-20T02:51:21Z
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@JeremyMallin There is no question. There isn't a single question in the post. The post just describes what determinism is and then presents two options of "agree" and "disagree." Whether determinism is true or not is completely irrelevant to the context of the post. The post is all about whether the person reading it agrees with determinism or not.
(DIR) Post #Ak6mciWBteS6ZdEvCK by Fury@mastodon.au
2024-07-20T02:52:28Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @JeremyMallin Binary is such a western concept. This works for computing, sure. But in humanities and philosophical conversations saying you have to be one or the other shuts down entire though pathways. What about I think determinism can explain somethings but not other things. So I don’t know for now. There is mystery in the universe and I’m ok with that. Keeping my options open is how I like to roll ❤️
(DIR) Post #Ak6mr0cXOByUlt1V68 by JeremyMallin@autistics.life
2024-07-20T02:55:04Z
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@Radical_EgoComDeterminism isn't something to be agreed or disagreed with. The universe either is deterministic or it is not. It's a matter of fact. It is also possible not to know what the fact of the matter is.
(DIR) Post #Ak6nHC3FVohRkj0FYu by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-20T02:59:48Z
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@JeremyMallin Why don't you just leave this thread and this post if you're so in disagreement with the structure of this poll? This conversation is pointless. This is time that could've been spent scrutiny discussing determinism instead of discussing the options for this poll.