Post Ak3kq76szdv7E4mfbc by robin@mastodon.social
 (DIR) More posts by robin@mastodon.social
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq0hUp82tLarJCK by robin@mastodon.social
       2024-07-16T00:12:23Z
       
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       We often talk about ethics in tech but how much of an impact has that really made? I think that we can do better, but for that we need to give up on useless habits, hone our skills, and focus a lot more on governance.https://berjon.com/ethicswishing/
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq1oGhR3amt2EOO by artificialmind@fosstodon.org
       2024-07-18T12:28:03Z
       
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       @robin Thanks, this gave me a lot to think about.Maybe you can help me with the following paradox:You make a good case that non-binding values & reserve control are counterproductive. Commitments must be concrete and measurable enough to allow accountability.However, this also immediately tingled my Goodhart instincts: Selection pressure for easy-of-measurability in ethics is a fast-track to dystopian results.
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq31QC1AkXyCFX6 by artificialmind@fosstodon.org
       2024-07-18T12:28:13Z
       
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       @robin If my python bot becomes the most moral entity around by simply min-maxxing mechanical rules, then that's not a moral system I'd like to be part of.A quick search tells me that Goodhart's Law's relation to accountability is kinda known but I have no idea how you reconcile them in non-hand-wavy ways.
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq3xYhrg1SHOg9Q by robin@mastodon.social
       2024-07-18T13:09:55Z
       
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       @artificialmind That's a very good question and it's very close to another thing I'm working on that I haven't finalised well yet.Goodhart's Law is a management problem, it's basically what happens when you turn a complex problem into a relatively simple optimisation problem. You lose a lot of resolution about the target by doing that, and then incentivising that target means it will go where the optimisation is easiest which is unlikely to be actually good.
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq57APcxN2MtrlY by robin@mastodon.social
       2024-07-18T13:14:29Z
       
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       @artificialmind But that assumes bureaucratic management as the way in which accountability is done. It's a world of control by measurement.Imagine if instead you knew you had to be in a town hall of people affected by your code on a regular basis. If you're doing it wrong, they're going to tell you (and maybe want to replace you) but you can't boil down their problems to a number.
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq5sfZ0xDPh7no8 by artificialmind@fosstodon.org
       2024-07-18T13:24:09Z
       
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       @robin Ah that's a good example to explain why Goodhart's Law in my understanding is not only about numbers but rather about the difficulty to link "the spirit" to tight rules.So I have to be in that town hall? Well I just bring my laptop and work on other stuff if attendance is what matters.So the rule gets changed to "I have to interact with them". I'll just do small talk about other stuff."I have to talk about the code with them". I'll prioritize easy surface-level issues.And so on.
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq66Ujc0s6ZaqMC by robin@mastodon.social
       2024-07-18T13:18:01Z
       
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       @artificialmind Anyway, as you say the link to accountability is known but it's hard to convey what is crisp about the link. I think that it has everything to do with the bandwidth of your feed loop (but that's the part I'm still working on). A feed loop that's just one number is going to be pretty damn bad! I think that there may be a way to show this formally maybe in Bayesian dynamics but I'm far from good enough at this to get there yet!
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq6WjA4zrPvrnFI by artificialmind@fosstodon.org
       2024-07-18T13:34:06Z
       
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       @robin I wish I had a solution but that's the fear I have: It's hard-to-impossible to properly define rules that match the intented spirit. The more you're trying to flesh out the rules, the more you're telling people "if you're inside the rules then your behavior is OK, we put a lot of thought into that". The flawed rules become a shield.It almost feels like an Uncertainty Principle. Tight rules cannot match the spirit, loose rules cannot be held accountable.
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq76szdv7E4mfbc by robin@mastodon.social
       2024-07-18T13:37:57Z
       
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       @artificialmind That's why using democratic accountability isn't about rules, it's about whether the people affected by your behaviour find it good or not!
       
 (DIR) Post #Ak3kq7dr14I8sKCzzc by bonifartius@qoto.org
       2024-07-18T15:48:20Z
       
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       @robin @artificialmind that's more or less natural law instead of the positive law implemented everywhere.