Post Ajne8abbGGbP4yPIIa by jlou@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by jlou@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AjnAoUWpFTLLllEp7Y by aeleoglyphic@mastodon.social
2024-07-10T04:05:10Z
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"On authority" arguments in a nutshell.#onauthority #anarchism #debate #leftistmemes #2024election #anarchy #antistatism #authority #queerliberation #TankieLogic #tankies #TankiesFuckOff #tuesday #politics #badargument #anarchistdebates #antiauthority #antiauthoritarian #postleft #stirner #egoism #egocom #egoist #antimorality #anticapitalism #communism #statelessness #utopia #utopian #soviet #ml #lenninism #stalinism #maoism #authoritarian #authoritarianism #leftism #leftist #lgbt
(DIR) Post #AjnAoVrQINPhtvsmrg by Meowth@mastodon.online
2024-07-10T15:47:52Z
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@aeleoglyphic Well, when all relevant contexts from Engels "On Authority" are removed, it will look irrational. Engels was arguing against both the blind acceptance and wholesale rejection of authority, the former because it can lead to oppression and abuses of power, and the latter because in many cases, authority arises naturally out of the division of labor and specialization of tasks, and without some form of authority, social organization and progress would be impossible.
(DIR) Post #Ajne8abbGGbP4yPIIa by jlou@mastodon.social
2024-07-10T20:14:47Z
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@Meowth @aeleoglyphic Authority is a particular kind of human social structure. Division of labor and specialization in production do not necessitate authority. For example, there is no relationship of authority involved between 2 worker coops where 1 supplies inputs to the other. There are ways to structure communities and organizations without authority. A wholesale rejection of authority is a reasonable position.
(DIR) Post #Ajne8b9zCQ6kncUktc by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-10T21:17:49Z
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@jlou @Meowth @aeleoglyphic 1/2 Division of labor (DoL) and Specialization in Production (SiP) does naturally spawn authority on some level. The breaking down of complex task into smaller task (DoL) results in individuals and organizations focusing on producing specific goods and services that they have an advantage in (SiP). The SiP causes some individuals and groups to have more power and influence in a certain area of work due to them having more expertise in that area than anyone else.
(DIR) Post #AjneAAt1r2m1tPJb4S by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-10T21:18:00Z
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@jlou @Meowth 2/2 Due to having more knowledge of the skill, the responsibility of guiding new people in learning this skill will fall onto the specialists of this skill, which will put a certain level of authority over the people they are teaching and instructing.
(DIR) Post #Ajo0mwOLsTTXDtr9zk by jlou@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T01:31:42Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @Meowth Hierarchical authority in the anarchist sense is not inclusive of people's different knowledge and expertise. People choosing to defer to experts is not an example of hierarchical authority in this sense.Teacher-student does not have to involve hierarchical authority in this sense either
(DIR) Post #Ajo2dJj6SsQGbh6MJk by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T01:52:22Z
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@jlou @Meowth That is still a hierarchical authority. Having one person or a group of people have knowledge of how a particular form of work has to be done or how certain machines work gives them power over those who don't have that knowledge but need it. The people who have this knowledge are both the authority of their particular field of expertise, and on the top of the hierarchy of knowledge, the knowledge, in this case, being able to translate to real-world material products.
(DIR) Post #AjoHWR6k7bBAmjKsb2 by jlou@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T04:39:12Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @Meowth Hierarchical authority is a technical term in anarchist thought here. Just any usage of the same word in English doesn't necessarily count as hierarchical authority in this sense. Having someone tutor you doesn't give them hierarchical authority over you.
(DIR) Post #AjolHI7eFC5lCMSBZQ by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T10:12:37Z
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@jlou @Meowth I've already explained how hierarchy and authority naturally arise from the division of labor and specialization in production. Repeating what was previously stated doesn't make my argument invalid.
(DIR) Post #Ajp6peMe9aUD40h4y0 by jlou@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T14:13:39Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @Meowth Hierarchical authority refers to a recognized right in a social relationship to give commands, make decisions and enforce obedience. Being influential and recognized as qualified in your field does not necessarily give you a recognized right to enforce obedience from or give commands to subordinates. Possessing knowledge that someone else wants might give you power over them in a sense, but that isn't a sufficient condition for it to qualify as hierarchical authority
(DIR) Post #Ajp8dQefUyaQyiQKBM by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T14:34:19Z
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@jlou @Meowth 1/2 You are right that having knowledge others need and being influential does not automatically equate to a hierarchical authority, but those traits are what cause hierarchical authority to inevitably arise from the division of labor and specialization in production. A person or group of people possessing knowledge that others need or desire does give that person power over others, as you stated, and that power gives that person or group the ability to dictate the actions...
(DIR) Post #Ajp8emMUHLxGaeYzVQ by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T14:34:31Z
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@jlou @Meowth 2/2 ...of others who require or desire that knowledge in exchange for that knowledge or for their assistance in performing a task, which will inevitably result in a hierarchical authority being created with the knowledgeable individuals at the top being able to bribe subordination out of everyone else using their knowledge and/or specialized skills.
(DIR) Post #AjpABpgR38QeP2DdFg by jlou@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T14:51:43Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @Meowth Sure, knowledge can be useful in acquiring hierarchical authority. It isn't inevitable that knowledge by itself lead to hierarchal authority. For example, getting a new worker to join your worker coop who has unique skills does not necessarily give them hierarchical authority over any other members of the worker coop.Preventing bribing subordination can be achieved with voting for group decisions being anonymous, private and unprovable to third parties
(DIR) Post #AjpBjanoyyzy3CKrWi by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T15:09:04Z
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@jlou @Meowth 1/2 It obviously isn't guaranteed immediately, but having groups of people who are more skilled or more knowledgeable than others will inevitably result in a hierarchical authority of some kind. A new skilled worker isn't likely to be able to amass hierarchical authority over others immediately, but if they're vital enough to the group, then over time they could, and this is just one person. A whole group of skilled people would be far more influential and thus be more...
(DIR) Post #AjpBkysOxhlJ0J8jbc by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-07-11T15:09:15Z
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@jlou @Meowth 2/2 ...likely to create hierarchical authority over others at an even quicker speed. Voting and anonymous group decisions can mitigate the potential for groups to attain hierarchical authority over others, but the voting and decisions would all be done by people, people who may be compelled to side with the specialized skilled person or group out of necessity or possibility of profiting in some way from them.