Post AjeSmCXvBXZuAgAXOS by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AjeJlnrM4Ovm1HzhaK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:17:13Z
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Under a Trump presidency how likely is mass deportation? Mass deportation is a form of mass violence— but it would also be highly disruptive and destructive to the economy and the fortunes and labor forces of quite a few millionaires and billionaires— because of that latter hard economic fact I’ve always considered it unlikely that a Trump administration would ever follow through on such a promise— no matter how much his base brays for it. And yet it seems naive not to take seriously. 1/
(DIR) Post #AjeK9cNIQDUhLmI3I8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:21:31Z
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When we talk about repeating the atrocities and mistakes of the path there is no more parallel way than any attempt to “purify the blood of the country” through a systematic removal of noncitizens. Such a project would also offer ample opportunities to disappear and subjugate inconvenient “citizens” — citizenship being a mailable thing, one that could be redefined to require loyalty to the overall cause. But again the US depends on the labor of noncitizens to function— so could it happen? 2/2
(DIR) Post #AjeKDHZXhtAZzUlXOa by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-06T09:22:11Z
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@futurebird For Israel, it was massively disruptive to cancel all Palestinians' work permits.They still did, though.If the hate is strong enough, self-destructive expressions of hate are very much possible.Even on a systemic scale.At some point, the people who want to hurt lower-tier groups are simply able to override objections from those profiting off exploiting them.See also the loss of east-European farm workers in the UK, post brexit.
(DIR) Post #AjeKzqm487Gp4GmYRk by petealexharris@mastodon.scot
2024-07-06T09:30:58Z
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@futurebird There wouldn't have to be any kind of organised deportation or even an official policy to do it. The fact that the guy who said he was going to do it is in charge will be enough to embolden horrific acts by everyone from state governors down to cops and vigilantes, so as to terrorise people into compliance.
(DIR) Post #AjeL4m07IwjfiAhaC0 by mensrea@freeradical.zone
2024-07-06T09:31:49Z
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@futurebird i'd say a very high likelihood of some mass deportations. as violence to further subjugate those they "spare". they will be bringing back slavery of some form
(DIR) Post #AjeLjC8bY0XwMBwkLI by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T09:30:54Z
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@justafrog @futurebird who is more hated than Jews, and so lower tier than anyone in that respect? You have interesting #armchairquarterback notions, with the notable fact that you offer no solution beyond, presumably, a Palestine #fromtherivertothesea without reference to #indigenous rights.
(DIR) Post #AjeLjDWkNjS6fMFXc0 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:39:08Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog This response is not aligned with the post it follows. You seem to cast anyone with compassion for Palestinians as the most strident radical. You demand succinct answers that you do not have yourself. Please step back and try to come at this conversation with a desire to be educated and to educate others— you may well know things we do not. Teach then. You may well need to learn— learn too.
(DIR) Post #AjeLqRzyyX21ZlNDNY by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-06T09:32:03Z
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@nicholas_saunders @futurebird Wow, you really want to fight, don't you?Good luck with that.
(DIR) Post #AjeLqSVt3uYJAiIh6m by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:40:26Z
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@justafrog @nicholas_saunders I think on most of the internet everyone has given upon discussing this reasonably— but we don’t need to give up here too.
(DIR) Post #AjeLwiXkNMaCcq9esK by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T09:41:32Z
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@futurebird @justafrog to the contrary, your reply in and of itself can certainly be read that you're saying that I lack compassion -- surely not your intent.
(DIR) Post #AjeMDXvD7U5Gbe9cki by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:44:39Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog When you make the jump from canceling work permits being a discriminatory policy all the way to “from the river to the sea” (with the worst presumed connotations that have been grafted on to that slogan) it really seems like there isn’t any room to discuss much of anything. Can you see that?
(DIR) Post #AjeMEtk7TV7iZZbx7w by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T09:44:46Z
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@futurebird @justafrog I'm all for that, but when you play armchair quarterback then at least call a play.
(DIR) Post #AjeMX2aRKeptDKjbjE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:48:08Z
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@WuMargaret Smarty pants will have guest visas revoked at the first signs of incorrect political ideas. (this is already happening in a way with technical worker visas)The more insurmountable issue is that in hot fields there are strawberries that must be picked by human hands. And those hands belong to noncitizens. Who will do all the got damn work?
(DIR) Post #AjeMmPezpNjj7RCCdk by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:50:56Z
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@futurebird I don't know, but fascists care about the economy the same way they care about making the trains run on time; Hitler, Mussolini, and Pinochet all put a lot of effort into propaganda that made their decisions seem "good for the economy", but actually ... mostly they weren't.
(DIR) Post #AjeMv3o4RrTdwnZ1CS by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T09:52:28Z
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@futurebird @justafrog it's an astounding armchair quarterback who doesn't like what they see and yet offer no alternative.
(DIR) Post #AjeNIsV08opZpN092G by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:56:47Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog Uncancel the work permits. Stop trying to make them leave and treat everyone like an equal citizen. But probably stop the famine first. Some of this is easy.
(DIR) Post #AjeNWYBUT35gsQOXM8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T09:59:17Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog It’s really strange to say that only those with total “solutions” can discuss or question what is happening. Why? This only makes sense if you believe that the right wing government of Israel is “doing its best” and I don’t buy that at all.
(DIR) Post #AjeNc2rPqEeJSucouO by Illuminatus@mstdn.social
2024-07-06T09:57:29Z
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@WuMargaret @futurebird Science dictated by the Party Line/Ayatollahs' Council tends to be poor and none at all. If they took over, the scientific production of the US, except for some fields, would probably crater.
(DIR) Post #AjeNiPTefLLRLbXvDE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T10:01:25Z
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@Illuminatus @WuMargaret This is very true— but it will take 5 to 10 years for the impacts to filter down into material realities that impact the way people live day to day.
(DIR) Post #AjeO1hRu4UaOaVvPWq by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T10:04:49Z
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@futurebird @justafrog You're intentionally misunderstanding and misstating what it means to engage in armchair quarterback ing.Criticize away. But you have not one single positive criticism where you present an alternate course of, for example, military action?Because the silence on that is deafening.
(DIR) Post #AjeO9ghyi2Z4biFjo8 by Illuminatus@mstdn.social
2024-07-06T10:06:19Z
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@futurebird @WuMargaret As with all Empire declines, they are not a thing from one day to another.
(DIR) Post #AjePG0cRh7623EF8Hw by AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de
2024-07-06T10:18:41Z
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@futurebird "require loyalty to the overall cause"Their own loyalty doesn't matter. These laws would only apply to "the others".The insurrectionists thought, their private opinion is the overall cause. They can not see the diversity of people.But the Constitution of the United States is the overall cause. And they tried to destroy it.
(DIR) Post #AjePYaVsymLaaU2A08 by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T10:22:02Z
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@futurebird @justafrog sounds like a wonderful utopia.
(DIR) Post #AjePxcYMX2V29b83Ki by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T10:26:35Z
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@futurebird I keep seeing the place where you wrote "... mistakes of the path ..." and thinking: this must have been meant to be "mistakes of the past", but maybe it's just as good that way.
(DIR) Post #AjeQMt4QG6dOcWAlii by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T10:31:11Z
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@llewelly i do not want to think about such paths though that is how they may function
(DIR) Post #AjeQqkmNeId1aryVii by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T10:36:32Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog There are no utopias and none were offered or implied. Please stop trying to make this into a choice between forms of extremism. To criticize extremism does not automatically make one an extremist for some other impossible pure ideology.
(DIR) Post #AjeRk3BkuBmecGDBCK by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T10:46:32Z
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@futurebird @justafrog How am I making this a choice between extremist positions? The only vaguely constructive criticism offered was so anodyne that no one with a shred of decency could object. Certainly I didn't.
(DIR) Post #AjeS58ox9yjcAJbRFg by tobie1@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T10:50:20Z
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@futurebird @nicholas_saunders @justafrog I was with you until the defense of the slogan "from the river to the sea." I wish you could understand why that one slogan--which in Arabic is worse--strikes so many of us as a call for the elimination of Israel altogether. It kills conversation before any can be started. Israelis aren't going anywhere; Palestinians aren't going anywhere. We've come close to a peace deal a few times but never succeeded. We need one now more than ever.
(DIR) Post #AjeSNKdbxlts1myJBA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T10:53:37Z
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@tobie1 @nicholas_saunders @justafrog I think I’m agreeing with you? And I wasn’t the one who used that slogan in this conversation, I was responding to someone who did?
(DIR) Post #AjeSYqf3F3IYX18XYG by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-06T10:55:42Z
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@futurebird So far, all I'm seeing is a shitload of bad faith bullshit pretending you want all Jews dead.Or that you don't "understand" that's what it means to be against starving Palestinians to death.It's disappointing to see what appear to be real live persons advocating for that.I hope I'm just wrong about it all.@tobie1 @nicholas_saunders
(DIR) Post #AjeSmCXvBXZuAgAXOS by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T10:58:04Z
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@futurebird @tobie1 @justafrog Here's the thing: I inferred that frog would advocate such. Maybe I'm wrong.When someone advocates for this position they'll often, also, advocate more reasonable criticisms. This was what I inferred.If I have the position which frog takes on this then I'll offer my apologies.
(DIR) Post #AjeSy1r4lBR4ULlgW0 by tobie1@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T11:00:09Z
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@futurebird @nicholas_saunders @justafrog I understand. Your original post was about Trump and migration and the convo took a turn pretty far off that topic. You also didn't use the slogan first. All I meant to say was that some slogans make it even harder to imagine what peace would be. All of us are battered by the news we read. If it weren't for your ant posts, I probably wouldn't be on this site. Thanks for explorig how ants deal with challenges.
(DIR) Post #AjeTgmZIRV4Q6nnAZM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T11:08:21Z
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@tobie1 @nicholas_saunders @justafrog I totally agree and that’s why I was annoyed by the leap from discussing particular policies to the emotionally charged rhetorical BS of toxic slogans. Everyone gets hung up on “I should be able to say it. they are just twisting the meaning” or “it is cover to conceal ideologies of radical retribution” which can both be true. With no trust between the voices in the conversation you only have a shouting match.
(DIR) Post #AjeV9TVqTCOjMQQJMG by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-06T11:00:41Z
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@nicholas_saunders @futurebird @tobie1 In case you're actually sincerely listening, what I want is people stop killing each other.Directly or indirectly.Find a way to let everyone live.Not just the idea of it, but that people stop dying.And that people stop getting driven off the land they're living on right now.De-escalation for everyone. An end of violence for everyone.If that can happen, I'd like it to.
(DIR) Post #AjeV9UYMbK0SaWbpvE by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T11:04:15Z
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@justafrog @futurebird @tobie1 but, frog, as Biden has noted: hamas will use a ceasefire to rearm.So why would Israel agree to that?
(DIR) Post #AjeV9VmE3GgmNo6QAS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T11:24:43Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog @tobie1 Can’t *everyone* use any ceasefire to rearm? Negotiations for longer peace can occur. In a cold war everyone rearms and sooths their fear with plans for what they *could* do. But the longer the peace lasts the higher the costs of being the one to break it. Both sides rearming and planning more violence is bad— but letting that violence play out is worse.
(DIR) Post #AjeVTgZjc31HfKsbse by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T11:28:23Z
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@futurebird @justafrog @tobie1 Bidens point wasore that the intent of Hamas is to repeat the #alaqsafood operation.Remind me who broke the cease-fire? Because the Whitehouse said that it was Hamas.
(DIR) Post #AjeVm0pd2Sizhb3LN2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T11:31:40Z
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@nicholas_saunders @justafrog @tobie1 And given the power and influence of the US in the arms trade can’t we make it very hard for them to accumulate weapons? It would be easier to be a supportive ally if this was going in the direction of peace— rather than what looks like a war to exclude Palestinians from the future of the country. This is why the work permits matter. Why I’m willing to discuss this at all.
(DIR) Post #AjeW9otZ4Ot1dEFKQS by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T11:35:59Z
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@futurebird @justafrog @tobie1 Can we make it hard, though? Arguably the sanctions against Hamas have failed, and even backfired.
(DIR) Post #AjeWpICF28TANfl2yu by mmby@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T11:43:29Z
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@futurebird nazi germany worked on a test of perceived "is the person/class of people dilligent or lazy"?all kinds of racial, social, ableist bias goes into that - but first, everyone in the in-group was convinced that they're the hard workers, they're the victims of someone else not doing their partso first working on making a class of people seem lazy in the public's eye makes it easy to throw away economic considerations
(DIR) Post #AjeX1mpgxDvIsAATvk by EMR@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-07-06T11:45:32Z
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@futurebird scorpion and the frog comes to mind.
(DIR) Post #AjeY4N8b2o9U0Ho7I8 by testerab@mastodon.me.uk
2024-07-06T11:57:24Z
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@futurebird @WuMargaret Post-Brexit in the UK, those strawberries just rotted when the European workers who normally came over stopped coming.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-61568286Something can be entirely predictable and loudly predicted and those who don't care to hear will just call it Project Fear and unpatriotic. It doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't even have to work, having a working system or quality of life for the majority is not the goal.
(DIR) Post #AjelGe6d56EtVc4PEO by jik@federate.social
2024-07-06T14:25:17Z
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@futurebird They will totally do it. All the stuff immigrants produce will still be available, in much smaller quantities for much more money, so rich people will still be able to get it, and it's just everybody else who will be screwed.Also, they'll do everything they can to increase incarceration of undesirables, starting with SCOTUS saying being homeless can be criminalized, giving them a literal captive population of workers, cheaper, more disposable, and more controllable than immigrants.
(DIR) Post #AjeqFgXN3WAOWxwIzI by nicholas_saunders@mastodon.social
2024-07-06T15:21:08Z
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@futurebird @justafrog @tobie1 oh, I misread your post. I thought that you wanted an arms embargo against Hamas.You want to apply pressure against Israel.What military actions would you have preferred after the #AlAqsaFlood operation? This is why I've brought up #constructivecriticism repeatedly. When engaging in arm chair quarterback ing, the crucial step is saying what should be different.I'm all ears.
(DIR) Post #AjfDkbddcM5hGAaH44 by KanaMauna@sauropods.win
2024-07-06T19:44:28Z
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@futurebird Trump is a bully. Doesn’t matter whether or not he does it, he just wants to terrify the powerless into thinking that he will. And if some of his followers get their hands wet, it’ll just get the job done without his time and effort.
(DIR) Post #Ajfs02pWnWjg6V3uCW by ravenonthill@mastodon.social
2024-07-07T03:15:27Z
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@futurebird I think they'll at least try. It's part of Project 2025; they're at least planning on it.https://www.thenation.com/article/society/project-2025-dhs-immigration/
(DIR) Post #AjfxpFHqk7VtHGXjPc by ravenonthill@mastodon.social
2024-07-07T04:20:44Z
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@futurebird @WuMargaret In 2011, Georgia lost its peach crop to immigration restrictions.And then there's this song: https://youtu.be/WZ3Q4W9Y6kM?si=L5aupLdNeQFU-mla