Post Ajc0sChGLsNhLLgz5s by arraybolt3@theres.life
(DIR) More posts by arraybolt3@theres.life
(DIR) Post #AjbXWc76H7Ll8989Dc by louis@emacs.ch
2024-07-05T01:01:11Z
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It breaks my heart 💔 to see the way the Fediverse is discussing the issues arising from some FOSS projects like #Hyprland, #NixOS, and now the #Ladybird project. The divisiveness and lack of empathy in these discussions is truly sickening.Our enemies are not individuals who spend their entire free time to contribute to FOSS and make mistakes along the way, but corporations and unhinged capitalism that take away our freedoms.Let's resist the urge to condemn entire projects based on the actions or decisions of individual contributors. It's counterproductive. The beauty of this space is that we have the opportunity to engage in factual, nuanced, and compassionate discussions about these challenges. There's room for diverse perspectives and healthy debate here.Isn't that what should set us apart from the toxicity and polarization found on platforms like X/Twitter? We're better than that.The world is not binary. Just because someone isn't pro-something doesn't mean they're anti-something. And not being interested in a particular topic, how important it might be, doesn't make someone subject to be "purged". Life is complex and multifaceted, and we all have our own priorities and experiences that shape our views."Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7) This verse serves as a guiding principle for me, and I believe it should be a cornerstone of any progressive community.#FOSS #Fediverse
(DIR) Post #AjbXWd8YTC6kIwop7o by ghast@liberdon.com
2024-07-05T01:07:16Z
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@louis I believe I'm with you, but you're like a decade behind.
(DIR) Post #AjbvFISQV59q94Ngh6 by emaksovalec@emacs.ch
2024-07-05T05:33:00Z
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@louis I wasn't aware of the ladybird controversy. And curiosly there is no link to the pull request floating around, just hearsay. Had to find it myself https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/pull/366
(DIR) Post #AjbzIz117wS0p0ZdzM by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:31:13Z
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@louis respectfully, the pull request for the #ladybird project was not asking devs to be "for" anything, it was asking them to use neutral language in public-facing documentation for contributors. It's frustrating that being upset about an accusation that one's *existence* is political is equated to being intolerant or caring too much about ideology or being purist.We're asking not to be excluded. We want to feel like we are welcome to contribute.
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ0OS0In15yXs9Y by xuxxux@social.tchncs.de
2024-07-05T05:09:37Z
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@foxyoreos @louis I was honestly put off by the language of the PR. The project stated that they want to be politically neutral as a project and I can fully understand that.The PR literally was a single sentence calling the projects maintainers supremacists or at least very strongly implying that.If I would be walking down the street and some stranger came up to me and told me that I was a Nazi I would probably not have the countenance the maintainer showed
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ1Z7e6v6jMXuQS by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T05:21:07Z
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@xuxxux @louis What are you talking about!?This was incredibly politely phrased and implied nothing about the developers. It definitely wasn't an accusation that they were a nazi.The only person who brought politics into this request was the project maintainer. The error here that should be called out is replying to "I wish the documentation reflected everyone who contributed" with "get your politics out of here."
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ1aXYq3QnlD2dU by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:32:17Z
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@louis It's so backwards.We're asking the project lead to care less about ideology. To just have documentation that says "we don't care who you are, you're welcome here, we don't assume every user is a man." And that request is apparently political.What is more corporate than needing to put on a public face and hide your identity in order to write software?
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ2HQzMMiwnHIUi by xuxxux@social.tchncs.de
2024-07-05T05:48:31Z
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@foxyoreos @louis I was talking about the „removing white supremacy language“.
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ38xmLBRcoK2vg by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T05:27:55Z
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@xuxxux @louis It is so frustrating to me told that your existence is political, and then to accurately say, "okay I guess this project isn't welcoming to me" and be told, "open source is diverse, be more tolerant, don't demonize."It's like walking into the upside down, what is this world where just politely asking for acknowledgement that not every software user is male is somehow intolerant?Where in that dev response is the empathy being called for above?
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ3ZuAAjayMvYvI by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:35:15Z
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@louis what's cool about FOSS is that it's not sterile. It's messy and inclusive and multi-cultural and I can submit patches even if I'm a weird gay dog on the Internet.If I wanted some sterile, completely apolitical, "is your identity 'appropriate'" stance, I'd go write proprietary software for Oracle. But we're better than that, FOSS is for everyone, not just suites.
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ3sL3dTntXYHei by xuxxux@social.tchncs.de
2024-07-05T06:04:16Z
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@foxyoreos @louis https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/pull/366
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ59OJiiLqiXPsG by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:39:23Z
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@louis Pointing out that mistake doesn't mean these devs are the "enemy", but a dev who isn't the enemy can still make mistakes. Excluding women and transgender people and fluffers from software isn't being apolitical, it's being political. It's denying the extensive involvement of those communities in open source and the ways they've contributed. And for what? They write good code. Why would it be a problem to make them feel welcome? Why take a stance on whether someone can use pronouns?
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ6m4HPFKsxdonY by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:42:35Z
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@louis When I point out that these community managers are excluding contributors, that's not me hoping the projects fail. That is me pointing out a mistake that will hurt the projects, limit adoption, and needlessly politicize development for no reason.I don't want ladybird to fail, but I know that I'm not welcome there. Not because of my politics, but because the project owner believes that me existing in a public space is a controversy.
(DIR) Post #AjbzJ8VpojRwHC3sm0 by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:44:45Z
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@louis and to phrase that as a lack of empathy from contributors that are told every single day they need to hide who they are is just... not a good take.Have some empathy for the people who have been told that saying "I am a woman" is crossing a line if they're going to contribute code. How do you think they feel about that?
(DIR) Post #AjbzJAJr6F3VscTLNY by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T03:45:49Z
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@louis I am frustrated that saying "FOSS should be for everyone" is apparently controversial or political. /end
(DIR) Post #Ajc0dVuubr00bs4WOG by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T06:33:26.907Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch It's messy and inclusive and multi-cultural and I can submit patches even if I'm a weird gay dog on the Internet.This is what I like about FOSS too, but you don't need to go around telling everyone "HEY BTW IM A GAY DOG" when you submit patches. That is what happens, and I can definitely understand the irritation this creates with maintainers. Especially if a maintainer rejects a patch because it is simply not good, and the submitter then goes on to their personal shoutbox to complain it must have been rejected for made-up personal reasons rather than just focussing on the code.Like that patch stating the README contains white supremacy? Why is that needed? What are you (not you personally) trying to solve, and why do it with such a loaded statement? If you have code to improve #Ladybird, just submit it. If the devs don't feel like it improves the browser, they won't accept it. If you feel it is required for the browser to improve, fork it and show them. Heck, if you're running a good distro you can just apply your own patches to it when you install it, and always have the software be just the way you want it to be.
(DIR) Post #Ajc0sChGLsNhLLgz5s by arraybolt3@theres.life
2024-07-05T01:45:05Z
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@louis This is ultimately the problem with activism in general. There are those who want freedom and to be included, and there are those who want to rule. Activists claim to fight those who rule in order to gain freedom, but ultimately what they do is they gain their freedom, and then they go for rulership and attempt to dethrone and/or destroy everyone who disagrees with them. When that happens, they become the very thing they hate, the next wave of activists has them to deal with, and thus the cycle repeats. This has played out in some way, shape, or form in every political area of life, and it shows no signs of stopping any time soon. It's not that activism can't be done right, but almost everyone seems to do it wrong.Power corrupts everyone. This keeps me increasingly worried as an open-source contributor myself who is gaining higher privilege levels and more power on a regular basis. Almost everyone I've seen with any serious power has become evil in some way, **and I don't know why.** Why can't anyone seem to use power without becoming a tyrant? What if I'm the next tyrant? Only God knows how to keep that from happening, so I'm praying, reading the Bible, and spending time to self-reflect so that I can realize when I'm going wrong and get back on track.(This isn't to say most open-source leaders are tyrants - I actually haven't seen too many (if any) tyrannical FOSS leaders, but I've seen plenty of powerful people go bad throughout history and I don't want to be next.)
(DIR) Post #Ajc5K1mWvWi3PqgA1A by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:21:49Z
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@tyil @louis there's a lot to unpack here.> but you don't need to go around telling everyone "HEY BTW IM A GAY DOG" when you submit patches.The pull request I'm referencing didn't do that. It just asked for neutral language.Also... why not? Who hecking cares, is the code good? FOSS community patting itself on the back for being so agnostic about everything, until weird people show up in their communities, and then we're all IBM.I don't want to be IBM.
(DIR) Post #Ajc5K2WcABZZimExqi by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:25:57.187Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch It just asked for neutral language.The pull request people are upset about didn't do that.Who hecking cares, is the code good?I would hope most project maintainers care about whether the code is good more than what the submitter identifies as. I'm not running their identity on my computer, I'm running their code. The code is the part I (and probably most people) care about in the end.I don't want to be IBM.I'm not entirely sure what this is referring to, but you don't have to be anything in FOSS. Just clone the repository and change what you feel is needed, anyone can do it, you have full rights to do so, and if you think you can do a better job I'd highly encourage doing that rather than trying to ruin other people's reputation and work.
(DIR) Post #Ajc5t1TQ44naayQXVA by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:26:04Z
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@tyil @louis There's this narrative of "just write good code, all we care about the code."Well, frankly, obviously not, or else devs wouldn't be fighting public battles about whether a readme uses the word "they". The existence of women and nonbinary people or otherkin is not some wild distraction that is going to derail a project. Heck, how much of the FOSS world is built by those groups?Why drag politics simple acknowledgement of gender? When did FOSS become so "proper"?
(DIR) Post #Ajc5t29xVupIiuKVo8 by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:32:16.601Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch devs wouldn't be fighting public battles about whether a readme uses the word "they".This battle isn't started by the devs, it was started by the submitter and the devs are telling people they don't want that. They want to focus on the code. "Who cares?", well, the people complaining the devs aren't rolling over care, clearly.The existence of women and nonbinary people or otherkin is not some wild distraction that is going to derail a projectTheir existence itself will not, but if they constantly create drama and nonsense arguments for the sake of personal attention, then it definitely can derail a project. You can be anything you want on the Internet, but some people choose to be different and then be annoying about it. This is often undesirable and conflicts with the goal of just writing software for fun.Heck, how much of the FOSS world is built by those groups?I don't know, do you? And do we differentiate between free software and open software for this comparison?Why drag politics simple acknowledgement of genderIronically, the PRs I've seen so far wish to eradicate the concept of sex and gender, not acknowledge them.
(DIR) Post #Ajc61bM2Xn08C949rM by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:27:21Z
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@tyil @louis > The pull request people are upset about didn't do that.The pull request YOU are upset about didn't do that. The pull request that started literally the entire conversation about Ladybug is the one I linked to.That was the start of this. And again, can we not have some degree of mutual empathy about this? No curiosity at all about why anyone is upset? Is that what a nuanced charitable discussion is supposed to be?
(DIR) Post #Ajc61ce9jv5QCcY8jg by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:33:50.034Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch I'm not upset about any PRs, I have currently no intention to use #Ladybird as it appears to run on #Wayland only, which I am not using. I'm just seeing a lot of people making drama for no reason, and then pretend its not them making the drama, it's the people who are actually doing the work of making a new browser!!1!
(DIR) Post #Ajc61cuSlI891CBA9Y by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:30:00Z
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@tyil @louis I haven't finished responding to your first comment, there's a lot of stuff just being layered on top here.But I do want to quickly point out:> I'd highly encourage doing that rather than trying to ruin other people's reputation and work.I said above, I don't consider the dev an enemy. Pointing out a mistake, pointing out harm - is not me trying to ruin a reputation. It's just pointing out the problem."Nuance" does not mean, "pretend devs can do no wrong."
(DIR) Post #Ajc61di5mlpTV7OnVg by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:30:58Z
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@tyil @louis If we want to have nuanced conversations with empathy, that can't start from an assumption that every criticism of exclusion and intolerance is a personal attack.
(DIR) Post #Ajc6SNOaYDNmil1dIW by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:38:40.300Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch You have to understand not everyone is you, and that other opinions are allowed to exist. You likewise can't assume everyone who's tired of this pronoun drama must be evil or hate any "gay dogs" who might exist. More often than not they're fine with anyone existing, so long as they don't create unnecessary drama into their lives and passion projects.I don't care what anyone identifies as, even though I find this whole charade a pointless and ultimately self-destructing philosophy. If you're an adult, you can destroy yourself all you like for all I care. But destroying everything around you is a bit too much.If the devs don't want politics in their project, that's their choice. If you feel like the project needs more politics anyway, git clone will give you your entire personal copy of the code to which you can do whatever you desire.
(DIR) Post #Ajc74UTafoR9gYXUf2 by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:37:35Z
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@tyil @louis > Their existence itself will not, but if they constantly create drama and nonsense arguments for the sake of personal attentionI assume the best of Louise, and I assume that they meant everything they wrote above. And I don't think this represents a single piece of the nuance and grace and charity that they called for in their post.But I think this is a good explanation of how frustating these conversations can be and why it is so much work to display that charity.
(DIR) Post #Ajc74VcUQD9LERi7Ae by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:37:44Z
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@tyil @louis It is a complete dismissal of any concern that contributors have, it paints them as just "looking for attention" with no curiosity about why they might be upset, it paints a reasonable request with completely inaccurate language, and then just cycles back around to "why are you shoving your identity in our faces."Using the word "they" in a readme, is not shoving identity in anyone's face.
(DIR) Post #Ajc74XMbwDdWdmIShM by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:38:07Z
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@tyil @louis If you are curious about why these conversations devolve so quickly -THIS IS WHY
(DIR) Post #Ajc7UXZ5oPRWnIXBxI by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:41:23Z
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@tyil @louis> I don't care what anyone identifies asIf you believe that using the word "they" in a repository is "destroying everything around you", then this is very, very, very clearly not true.I will also note, even if you ignore the queer community, *women write code.*But apparently acknowledging that would send the entire house of FOSS cards crumbling. Which is ridiculous, I was a part of this community back when we weren't so hecking fragile, and it's embarrassing how that changed.
(DIR) Post #Ajc7UYf9jLt4CONY2q by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:50:15.943Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch I will also note, even if you ignore the queer community, *women write code.*I don't ignore either, and I am very aware of some great female programmers. No need to make false assumptions about me, but thanks for trying!I was a part of this community back when we weren't so hecking fragileSo was I, and many of the people I talk to on a daily basis. I wish we could go back to those days where we truly didn't care about what you identify as so long as you're not a fucking cunt about it. Alas, identity politics has ruined this, now we need to police language and have huge drama threads wherever we can when someone doesn't fall in line. We need entire CoCs when all we needed before this was just the general consensus to not be a dick all the time.We're both seeing the fragility and the changes, we just disagree on who brought it in.
(DIR) Post #Ajc7UZR0rQAUaolldg by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:43:34Z
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@tyil @louis But I just go back around to, if you're going to refer to the entire discussion as a charade and paint concerns from women and queer communities as if they're just attention seekers who are trying to destroy software...then for anyone else reading who is curious, that is the reason why these conversations don't have empathy and nuance. That's the reason why it becomes "political."Because there is no expression of gender so slight that it will not be considered a threat.
(DIR) Post #Ajc7azbkSjExVMqxd2 by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:51:26.312Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch Because there is no expression of gender so slight that it will not be considered a threat.Isn't this entire drama thread because of an expression of gender to begin with? I sure hope you can re-read this and realize the irony of your statement here.
(DIR) Post #Ajc7zyCooQggOc6QKG by foxyoreos@mastodon.social
2024-07-05T07:54:26Z
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@tyil @louis > So was I, and many of the people I talk to on a daily basis. I wish we could go back to those days where we truly didn't care about what you identify as so long as you're not a fucking **** about it. I've held off swearing because from what I can tell, the original poster is a Christian, and I would prefer to respect that if possible.However, may I suggest that we could go back to those days if you stopped being such a **** about others being open about their gender?
(DIR) Post #Ajc7zziPCTY34rtACO by tyil@fedi.tyil.nl
2024-07-05T07:55:57.088Z
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@foxyoreos@mastodon.social @louis@emacs.ch I stated before you are free to be open about whatever you identify as, and project maintainers are free to tell you they don't want you to do that. It works both ways, not everyone is interested in constantly talking about your fetishes.