Post AjaVfq3NQDqFu7hSFM by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AjYClACndc5mPJ0sN6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T10:30:22Z
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Maybe we need to make some space to have conversations about the way that rigid gender expectations can hurt people. I'm not talking about trans people, exclusively (in fact the trans people I know are among the most sophisticated when it comes to processing these kinds of events and emotions)No, where I see a lot of unprocessed trauma flailing around putting everyone in a bad way is from cis people who have unexamined psychological harm due to their failure to conform to some gender norm. 1/
(DIR) Post #AjYDAswISJc2O0Yiae by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T10:35:01Z
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I'm speaking from some experience. Failing to be feminine correctly used to freak me out.Just as an example: like most humans I have hairs on my chin, discovering these hairs as a teen filled me with fear and revulsion that had little to do with anything rational. That was because I'd experienced the way that kids could isolate and jeer at someone who didn't do gender correctly. And I had no idea what might trigger that kind of bullying and ostracization. 2/
(DIR) Post #AjYDQugjijmcRavKL2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T10:37:53Z
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I fully expected one of the more extroverted and popular girls to notice these tiny little hairs on my chin, and whip up her followers into a chorus of jeering that would never end. I assumed that such an event would have no recourse from adults. No, it'd be deserved. So, I spent hours with tweezers fighting the hairs. It's almost funny... but really it's not something that should have happened, it was a sign of greater things that are broken. 3/
(DIR) Post #AjYDgF5OAHya39lQem by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T10:40:42Z
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For one thing: bullying isn't a "normal healthy part of growing up" It's not normal to get bullied, it's not normal to be a bully. It's not something that ought to be common, it's preventable, avoidable nearly always. And there is no value, nothing learned in kids bullying each other. It's just a failure to teach and support mutual respect. But when many people feel like they could be ostracized, rejected from the tribe, unpersoned over any random little thing that failure is massive. 4/
(DIR) Post #AjYDz4LiJ9RgFjNRce by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T10:43:54Z
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And there are a lot of adults with a kind of buried terror of having their gender questioned. Obviously such fearful people are also vulnerable to being made into bullies themselves. Without reflection we assume our secret fears are universal. No one cares about the little hairs on your chin. And even if they did? It doesn't really matter. 5/5
(DIR) Post #AjYEf6VOgJdB6PwyWG by aprilfollies@mastodon.online
2024-07-03T10:51:37Z
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@futurebird As someone who has developed alopecia areata within the last few years… this hits hard.
(DIR) Post #AjYEiTjolALm1fIwVs by InayaShujaat@paktodon.asia
2024-07-03T10:52:16Z
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@futurebird This resonates with me so very much. I was bullied for all sorts of things as a kid/teen. I was called a “tomboy” for not being super feminine. Girls ridiculed me, and boys physically harassed me. I, personally, was never ashamed of who and what I was/still am (a cis-het woman who doesn’t ooze with feminine charm). But dammit, the entire school sure as hell tried their best to humiliate me.
(DIR) Post #AjYFBuA7atBCNRdhkO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T10:57:38Z
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@InayaShujaat The problem with having gender norm induced trauma being so common (some people try to suggest it's "just part of growing up" ... bullshit.) is there is a desire to minimize it, to not listen to people when they say "no, that's not who I am THIS is who I am"Our reaction should be "Oh, sorry, OK." but instead you see people getting caught up in their own BS and pain "get over it." (Because I had to get over it, what makes YOU so special?) it can become fuel for contempt.
(DIR) Post #AjYFT8GmOd5n3My6Ou by sewblue@sfba.social
2024-07-03T11:00:32Z
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@futurebird I've been watching my kid grown up without as much of that gender rigidity. Perplexing as an adult relative outsider sometimes, but amazing to watch.Middle school in San Francisco is a different world. Especially at a school for neurodiversity.
(DIR) Post #AjYFjmAPpJCLQTval6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T11:03:43Z
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For my husband it's ordering drinks. He told me about the sheer terror of:1. Not being able to tell what gender drinks were.2. Being attracted to drinks that were "for women" 3. Ordering whisky on ice because that was the one thing he knew wouldn't be "incorrect" and hating it.Now he drinks boba and laughs about it. But why did this world have to stress out this kind wonderful man over something so ... pointless? He was afraid to sip my martini. Why do we do this to each other??
(DIR) Post #AjYG4XvjxAlZLwy3hg by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T11:07:29Z
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@futurebird Wait, James Bond's drink is womanly?Confusion.All the very not nuanced men in my life when I was growing up were at least somewhat seeing themselves in him.
(DIR) Post #AjYGFkShhXUrP9jBR2 by Mcdyer@masto.ai
2024-07-03T11:09:27Z
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@futurebird While I am cis het woman who looks unremarkable, my unwillingness to work at my femininity like a job was so offensive to my mother that it was a barrier between us for many years.
(DIR) Post #AjYH0dHuBz9ClU26hE by oseagh@hcommons.social
2024-07-03T11:17:59Z
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@futurebird I really appreciate this post. I grew up as a cis het boy with small feet. Absurdly, I took a lot of shit for this as a teenager, lots of subtle and not so subtle attacks on my perceived masculinity. Decades later, I'm still healing from it, still trying to bundle up all the internalized masculine norms and the shame, isolation and violence that grow from those norms, and throw them out of my psyche.I do have some gratitude for my small feet now. I realize they forced me to approach masculinity from a different angle, and I think I'm a happier and healthier adult man because of it. All that is to say, solidarity from an otherwise privileged cis het man who has felt the sting of bullshit gendering!
(DIR) Post #AjYHT5HBj2iBg5GRU0 by tillgrallert@digitalcourage.social
2024-07-03T11:20:02Z
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@quietmarc @futurebird even worse, they turn the shirt into a blouse
(DIR) Post #AjYHT6JhrAJuuBRy2y by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T11:23:03Z
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@tillgrallert @quietmarc Not the blouse!!Don't get me started on how annoying searching for women's clothing can be due to all of the distinctions without a difference. Oh, and if it's a "blouse" the dry cleaners will charge you two bucks more for some reason.
(DIR) Post #AjYHqjvckQ80Q1SR2e by econads@mendeddrum.org
2024-07-03T11:27:16Z
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@futurebird @tillgrallert @quietmarc Like haircuts. Short hair but also tits? Going to be twice the price.
(DIR) Post #AjYJdWguqsnpVYPBGy by tj@howse.social
2024-07-03T11:47:22Z
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@futurebird My 5 y'old boy, after a few months of school, developed a brand-new set of strong opinions about gender. Like performative "I HATE pink" non-sequiturs, just in case someone thought he might like something girlish.I've had to fight tooth and nail to counteract this mind poison he's learned at school. "Look, my favourite bath towel is pink! I love gardening! Smell this nice flower!" I don't know how successful I've been, but it feels like trying to sweep the tide out sometimes.
(DIR) Post #AjYKDhalnfdbk1mRbE by CoachMark@beige.party
2024-07-03T11:53:57Z
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@futurebird Tell him James Bond drinks Martinis?
(DIR) Post #AjYLCbyPIyB7ynsdgO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:04:51Z
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@lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue "Why can't two men just be best friends without it being gay???""Why does it matter if it's gay?"Yeah. It's an issue. I worry this issue is used to try to tell people pushing for LGBTQ rights to "slow down" as if that matters, as if anyone is "going fast" ... I worry it's just another roadblock. Of course men should be able to hold hands & hug and it not be "gay" as is "gay and BAD""What if people think you are gay?""Maybe I am! Who cares!"
(DIR) Post #AjYLGKwGa4iqJ3eguu by glennsills@dotnet.social
2024-07-03T12:05:39Z
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@futurebird The easy solution is to demand that all bars serve Apple Jack and coke in regular Coke, Diet Coke, and Coke Zero varieties. Everyone knows this is the best drink ever so he will no longer need to choose.
(DIR) Post #AjYLP9wAqyfMnAoqDQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:07:12Z
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@Kichae These ideas are enforced in this way and sometimes those doing the enforcement aren't even aware they are doing it. That sucks.
(DIR) Post #AjYLjixgLMSHD4KY52 by glennsills@dotnet.social
2024-07-03T12:10:53Z
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@futurebird By the way, if you are a cis male, taking a sip of you wife's drink is not only the manly thing to do, but also the safe thing to do. Remember gentlemen, you sleep with that woman and she can do you in with a pillow at any time.
(DIR) Post #AjYMe14QCdXjacKD7Q by aintist@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T12:21:07Z
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@futurebird I was told by a rather feminine boy, who most assumed was gay, that I must have been exposed to extra testosterone in the womb because I was so aggressive. As far as I know he identifies as cis and hetero.It’s was particularly weird because he didn’t fit gender norms yet he medicalized me being both aggressive and a girl.
(DIR) Post #AjYMxyHeH07wjr1jyS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:24:44Z
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@tj When you and other men in his life model that you don't care, that you think that kind of fear of "not being a man right" is a bit silly, or that it comes from fear no one really deserves but people can work themselves up into thinking they deserve. It's very hard. I can remember the way little boys would say the word "pink" and lace it with disgust to this day. It sort of makes my hairs stand on end, "ew it's PINK"
(DIR) Post #AjYNEBvRJy6rgIND1c by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:27:32Z
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@tj As a girl this was baffling. Since I knew that pink was "for me" ... did the boys hate ... me?All of the gender things were just so alien & random to me. I didn't feel strongly about pink, or about being prim or tough, I didn't have any... natural sense of what I ought to be doing or feeling. Yet, here are all these people acting like they "just know" ... was there something missing in me since I didn't "just know" ? Since all I could do is follow along and hope no one noticed?
(DIR) Post #AjYNgdk5UZAQ3ud3Ee by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:32:48Z
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@tj There isn't any big revelation at the end of this story. I am, it seems, a cis woman. I'm bisexual. Been married 18 years to wonderful cis guy. On paper we conform. You could even cross out the "bisexual" part since it wouldn't matter, except that I always notice when people are being homophobic in a more... intense way. But both of us had so many experiences of gender being utter bullshit growing up. We laugh about it together and I wonder how many more people are like us?
(DIR) Post #AjYNrE03XfixPP94CW by kingkaufman@sfba.social
2024-07-03T12:34:38Z
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@futurebird Someone close to me told his buddy that he was thinking about taking a pottery class. He'd always been fascinated by it but now, with kids grown and his career at a kind of cruising altitude in his 50s, he had time. The friend, also in his 50s, said "Isn't pottery for girls?" Like what??? Where do they keep these lists?
(DIR) Post #AjYOD8InPHc86mMCwq by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2024-07-03T12:38:37Z
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@futurebird As a teenager, the ever-recurring debate in group chats (usually organized by adults) was "is true friendship possible between a boy and a girl ?".And the answer was largely no, because of the ambiguity inherent in such relations (cue the term "friendzoned").So I'm not saying that problem is unsolvable, but at least it's a huge disruption, and people cannot be expected to adjust immediately.@martinvermeer @sewblue
(DIR) Post #AjYONqlSx35ItysTp2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:40:34Z
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@lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue The whole "is true friendship possible between a boy and a girl ?" thing always made me feel crazy being bisexual.Because obviously, if heterosexual boys and girls can't be friends then I can be friends with no one. LMAO.
(DIR) Post #AjYOX78hRKjKIGA8jA by ZippyWonderdust@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T12:42:14Z
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@futurebird I think this may be applicable…
(DIR) Post #AjYOj2sf6Db2YoLmT2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:44:27Z
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@lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue When I've looked at it as an adult I find the "is true friendship possible between a boy and a girl ?" conversation to more often be about *control* in particular men who want to control women. Because the people who said such friendships were "impossible" would also insist that a "true" girlfriend, a good and chaste girlfriend (or wife) would never speak to men alone unless it was unavoidable.
(DIR) Post #AjYOtVGUQDgdUMTxZY by lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
2024-07-03T12:46:18Z
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@futurebird Not in my experience, but the truth is that I haven't had these conversations after my teens...(and the general answer was mostly "no", but there were nuances)@martinvermeer @sewblue
(DIR) Post #AjYP3orSPzwLA3h0PQ by ShiitakeToast@beige.party
2024-07-03T12:48:12Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue this is similar to the idea that bisexuals are naturally cheaters. Do straight people automatically try to have sex with everyone they’re attracted to if they’re in a monogamous relationship? I don’t think so
(DIR) Post #AjYP6gX3qFOCCLWEKW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:48:34Z
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@lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue It seemed odd to me that this ideal true, loyal woman could not be trusted to be around men alone. I have a great deal of trust for my partner. And that is exactly why I don't worry about who he's alone with. In particular I feel he has enough respect for me that he wouldn't hide something that he knew might matter or hurt me from me like that. I trust him, and it feels good to be able to trust someone.
(DIR) Post #AjYPCs5hmNfnmhfo0G by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:49:49Z
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@lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue But these guys who didn't want to think about "their girl" talking to other guys couldn't seem to conceive of giving that kind of trust to a woman. Which frankly made me wonder if they thought of women as entire people, as complex, human enough to be trusted rather than... herded ... like an animal you must keep separate from the opposite sex lest it breed.There are some ugly ideas under the "is true friendship possible between a boy and a girl ?" question.
(DIR) Post #AjYPW4uuJjhv46mV1c by beecycling@romancelandia.club
2024-07-03T12:42:52Z
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@kingkaufman @futurebird Reminds me of the time I saw a boy in the stationery shop whose mum told him the pencil case he wanted to get was "for girls." It had owls on it. Not even pink owls, just owl coloured owls. Owls are for girls. 🤨🦉
(DIR) Post #AjYPaSwkuunskbjofY by DejahEntendu@dice.camp
2024-07-03T12:53:59Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue EXACTLY! I have always said the same thing.
(DIR) Post #AjYPhMB2U6wdmYhkiO by MichaelTBacon@social.coop
2024-07-03T12:55:18Z
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@futurebird @tj I think one reason I end up with so many queer friends despite being straight and cis and fairly boring in that regard is because I was always doing boyhood wrong. Not particularly girly, just a bit too goofy or something. I got called gay so many times as a kid I started to wonder if they were right.I think sometimes you can be male in a man’s body and still have gender dysphoria.
(DIR) Post #AjYPnjbyGkBqCTLL28 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:55:50Z
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@Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue We bisexual are a terror and must be placed in isolation pods, obviously.
(DIR) Post #AjYPrX80ciRydt8k64 by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T12:57:04Z
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@futurebird I was frequently subjected to violence all throughout my childhood, and the most frequent excuses, and the ones the adults respected the most, all revolved around not preforming gender correctly.
(DIR) Post #AjYPutkUyapPfUkPy4 by holsta@helvede.net
2024-07-03T12:57:20Z
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@futurebird My total lack of interest in cars, sports shaped my youth. In later years, switching to a vegetarian diet still causes comments.People (of all ages and gender) freak out over my bag with a pink unicorn on it.Or when looking to buy new glasses, I'm not allowed to look at the shelves with "feminine" frames.I *try* to be an ass about it and respond along the lines of: "That's a nasty insecurity you have there. You should get that looked at by a trained professional."
(DIR) Post #AjYPwYLZWH5ds0sSum by Forbearance@mastodon.xyz
2024-07-03T12:57:21Z
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@futurebird@lienrag @martinvermeer @sewbluewe must end the tyrranical reign of homosociality
(DIR) Post #AjYQQbBjWJBLMzbPjE by foolishowl@social.coop
2024-07-03T13:03:29Z
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@futurebird One thing that's worried me is that I get the feeling that examining the experience of gender has declined among cis people, as if it's just an issue of interest for LGBTQ folks.
(DIR) Post #AjYQa4JUbRAqJ2kOoq by StumpyTheMutt@social.linux.pizza
2024-07-03T13:05:14Z
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@futurebird @tj I once used a pink Barbie lanyard for my ID badge at work. All of a sudden people started wondering if I was gay. People hold very rigid expectations about gender roles and any deviation very much confuses them.
(DIR) Post #AjYQq2g4S7TVrkvPSS by petealexharris@mastodon.scot
2024-07-03T12:59:28Z
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@Rob_T_Firefly @futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue "Just Friends" is a pretty terrible framing of interpersonal relationships in itself, really.
(DIR) Post #AjYQq3xpfZHDr8F6mW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:08:05Z
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@petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue A real friend is kind of a big deal. Kind of... an amazing and very precious thing.
(DIR) Post #AjYR4zREmJPuAC79XM by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T12:59:45Z
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@daisy @futurebird It definitely felt weird to see half the toy stores go pink.Before that, it wasn't like kids were confused about the intended target of toys, but wow, that pink really hammered it in.Most of the girls I grew up with flatly never wore a single pink thing, so it's not like they were clamoring for pink or anything.
(DIR) Post #AjYRBCHdvtVDjvaQXA by petealexharris@mastodon.scot
2024-07-03T13:11:50Z
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@futurebird @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue Yes. Primarily I think it's someone you know well enough that you can personally trust them. A lot of people think it's someone you like or who is nice to you, but those are very surface-level things of less real value.
(DIR) Post #AjYRUzemaY4eN0qjS4 by skullE@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T13:15:21Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue yeah you're absolutely right I'm friends with many girls some of whom I find attractive but I'm happy being single. There's something very wrong with the mentality that we can't be friends.
(DIR) Post #AjYRbcF82SlJmT0Y1g by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:16:39Z
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@petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue I once encountered a deeply unwell "red pilled" young man who calmly explained to me that "women can't be friends" ... friendship, you see, was something that could only occur between two red-blooded heterosexual men. He had a whole theory about women only seeking relationships for personal gain. And thus women were both not interested in sex OR in trust and friendship.
(DIR) Post #AjYRdfE7uqQDc8W2b2 by bartholin@fops.cloud
2024-07-03T13:17:11.083212Z
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@lienrag @futurebird @martinvermeer @sewblue Yep, one of the two may want the friendship to evolve into a romance, the other one only wants friendship, drama ensues
(DIR) Post #AjYRe5ffb3u1d5bP8a by faassen@fosstodon.org
2024-07-03T13:16:41Z
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@futurebird@tj I wonder how much culture affects this. Some cultures may put more pressure to perform your gender than others.Though I don't recall much external pressure to perform my gender, I was definitely aware of it. We had gendered bicycles in the NL (the frame was different) and I definitely would be embarrassed to ride a girl bicycle. But teens are easily embarrassed in general.I always held people are human beings first. I only learned about the flaws of gender blindness later.
(DIR) Post #AjYRiZ6W6ixy4ZIFwO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:17:14Z
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@petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue It was very disturbing to talk to someone face to face who was so open in his disdain for my humanity. And I told him as much. Then he said I was being irrational and emotional (like a woman) which was so predictable of a response that I started laughing and really couldn't stop even though I wanted to.
(DIR) Post #AjYRniLn9njGCJtSXQ by jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
2024-07-03T13:17:25Z
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@futurebird @tj Our kids come back with these notions at times, but then our boy also likes his fingernails painted, and we totally support that..It's a constant fight. I've given up trying to explain too deeply, though, and just say things like "they don't understand what they're missing" or "maybe they're jealous and afraid to ask their own parents". One thing I realized is that the peer pressure doesn't go away, so pressuring in the opposite direction, as it were, doesn't help. Rather,...
(DIR) Post #AjYRsF8ND6xd24mD8S by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:19:44Z
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@petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue Looking back I think my questioning and debunking of his ideas about relationships and women made him deeply uncomfortable and he was just doing his best to hurt my feelings... whereas I was trying to understand how his mind worked and fascinated in a kind of horrified way. He'd been holding court until I showed up in that conversation. Those people never invited me to hang out again. (Thank god.)
(DIR) Post #AjYRuaNHD62RUHrezo by ColesStreetPothole@weatherishappening.network
2024-07-03T13:19:55Z
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@futurebird It's the late 1960s and my dad is buying me a lunch box for first grade. We were at a rural five and dime, and the selection was small, behind the counter.My father fought in WWII. Yet he picked a soft-sided lunchbox because it seemed less likely to hurt someone than the metal ones. It was a Barbie lunch box.I burst into tears—the absolute ridicule I would face! When I finally was able speak, I let him know the problem, and he chose something else.
(DIR) Post #AjYS8yVGISR8NMSdHc by ColesStreetPothole@weatherishappening.network
2024-07-03T13:21:52Z
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@justafrog @futurebird Yeah, apparently drinks in stemmed glasses are girlie drinks now. Society has *gotten worse* at this.
(DIR) Post #AjYSGKewJr7p7QUng0 by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T13:23:41Z
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@futurebird Thinking some more about this, musical instruments get gendered a lot, too.Literally, all it takes is a pair of working hands (and sometimes feet) so there's no real gendered advantage or disadvantage for playing any of them.But lots of instruments are over 90% played by one gender.
(DIR) Post #AjYSKD6YLhoiqZGF2O by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:24:40Z
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@Kichae @pikzim I think this might be about the annoying way that people sometimes pressure others to drink booze... because they think it's fun and social. But it's important to recognize that if someone says "no thank you" to booze offering again is... bad. It's a drug and you might not be helping. In fact, always have a non alcohol option, do not expect others to do a drug with you to make it more fun for you.
(DIR) Post #AjYSVCSl4lDY2dt5hA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:26:36Z
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@IngaLovinde @faassen @tj many of the "women's features" are more like "features for short people and people who don't like to be covered in mud.""Skirt guards" are cool. They also do just as nice of a job keeping scarfs and rain coats out of the spokes too.
(DIR) Post #AjYSbHIA2BkOkwpS1A by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:27:46Z
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@uastronomer This makes me so sad. My husband did the same thing. Men deserve to be warm too! :(
(DIR) Post #AjYScwzIUoSAMYnr3Q by aaron@hilltown.studio
2024-07-03T13:28:05Z
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@futurebird @InayaShujaat This one feels connected to yesterday's thread, particularly strains of "Your experience doesn't match my experience, so your experience must be wrong" or "I literally can't relate to someone who has or wants a different experience than I had." We end up just paying forward any and all trauma we suffered, instead of thinking about ways to make that cycle stop.
(DIR) Post #AjYSfzYZOwNHCOkg8O by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2024-07-03T13:28:18Z
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@futurebird One of the superpowers I have gained as I have got older is not giving a shit anymore about what people think about the way I sound, look and dress. Given the choice though, I'd have preferred this progression to have been the other way around - start that way when I was younger and get more paranoid as I got older. Partly because greater experience means I am now much better placed to cope with the fear and stress of always being a square peg than I was back then.
(DIR) Post #AjYSxEIDrhTlpGKDZI by ncrav@mas.to
2024-07-03T13:31:43Z
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@futurebird if you allow me to add a bit of my experience 😊 growing up in Portugal (90s & 00s) as a thin geek male that had emotional issues is not "fun": people expected me to like football, to talk a lot about women, to watch sports games (nothing wrong with it but I don't like it), not be emotional, not care about people too much, etc. This does "wonders" to emotional development, and many of my peer males sadly ended up being depressed, anxious, jerks, or worse due to all these pressures.
(DIR) Post #AjYT9fFjSGbMuo5cEC by Jackiemauro@fosstodon.org
2024-07-03T13:34:02Z
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@futurebird @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue These guys do so much harm but I can’t help but feel bad from them. They’re so intent on denying themselves the best parts of life. All to try to preserve a sense of patriarchal superiority .
(DIR) Post #AjYTBq56ALJJ4v9Wtc by IngaLovinde@embracing.space
2024-07-03T13:34:04Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue as a lesbian who didn't understand she wasn't a boy, this made me so confused and isolated! "I can be friends with no one" exactly, because boys are awful (because many of them are and because of the pressure on me to be a boy), and I'm not allowed to be beast girls either.
(DIR) Post #AjYTETmfWU0wnFn7wG by bubblewrap@chaos.social
2024-07-03T13:34:49Z
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@futurebird when I was a child I had some rather weird associations which gender did which. Probably this was partly because of me being ND and not understanding things. For example I believed women always drank their coffee without sugar while men used sugar (sample size my parents and a handful other adults).
(DIR) Post #AjYTOad6vPvAvB8qae by bwbeach@qoto.org
2024-07-03T13:36:31Z
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@futurebird I don’t care what gender drinks are, but it still gets in the way. I ordered a lavender Prosecco (delicious!). The waiter delivered it to the woman at the table. I didn’t know that drink wasn’t allowed for me.
(DIR) Post #AjYTR6bl0BWyg9hy8e by IngaLovinde@embracing.space
2024-07-03T13:36:29Z
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@futurebird @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue true friendship is only when two red-blooded heterosexual men are red-bloodedly intensely making out
(DIR) Post #AjYTe97ay568EsonwW by drakenblackknight@mastodon.online
2024-07-03T13:39:34Z
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@futurebird My parents didn't like the fact that I watched Jem and the Holograms, Clarissa Explains It All (before Melissa Joan Hart started telling jesus tales), and Sailor Moon. They were relieved when I started dating women but then got back on me when the women I was dsting weren't white (my mom explicitly said, not quoting, she didn't want me dating "n***ers" and "c***ks"). 1/2
(DIR) Post #AjYToTbreFaSg5u0ye by funkula@goblin.camp
2024-07-03T13:41:08Z
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@futurebird reminded of one of my favorite kids in the hall skits, Girl Drink Drunk, which I think holds up because the joke isn't that he likes feminine drinks, it's that he's trying to be a secret alcoholic but only drinks things that require elaborate preparation https://youtu.be/8C4TGGtPzBU?si=tBiD9j14HGcQQPpi
(DIR) Post #AjYTuNtDpOwUfuq2qW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:42:32Z
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@bubblewrap Math is for women and chemistry is for boys. (mom was in math, dad did chemistry)
(DIR) Post #AjYU6b7ETowhAaDQHY by TheNovemberMan@bookstodon.com
2024-07-03T13:44:29Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue 👍😅👍
(DIR) Post #AjYUBQRRapm1VqyHnU by faassen@fosstodon.org
2024-07-03T13:45:04Z
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@futurebird@IngaLovinde @tj Those features are definitely easier for a growing boy too! It's hard enough dealing with a bicycle that may be slightly too tall for you initially and then also have it be difficult to mount.Skirt guards are called "coat guards" in Dutch and are standard here, never were gendered afaik.
(DIR) Post #AjYUQVYsq6Hjjgdvhg by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T13:47:35Z
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@modulux @futurebird It strikes me as strangely irrational.It's not even consistent across different countries.Like in Bolivia you'd find plenty of male harpists, but in Germany it's very much a woman's instrument.It's purely about what a local culture deems suitable.But it's definitely a thing in every country I know of.There's some serious sociology research into this, too.
(DIR) Post #AjYUgMWODbN6Kc2Jn6 by hydropsyche@ecoevo.social
2024-07-03T13:51:03Z
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@futurebird This is such an amazing thread. Thank you!
(DIR) Post #AjYVFfcnBW9tiMrqBE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:57:33Z
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@Jackiemauro @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue The way they talk about "relationships" is so transactional and cynical. They are open about expecting next to nothing from others, but especially women in the way of trust or real respect. "She will leave your for an Alpha with more money as soon as one comes along." (She never cared about you and has no issue hurting you. She was literally just there for... free drinks and dinner I guess?)1/
(DIR) Post #AjYVRxipizl3JlYQO8 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T13:59:47Z
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@Jackiemauro @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue And the things is: such cynical transactional women (and men, and people of all genders) do exist! And there is no faster way to find them than to approach relationships as these men suggest. Their tactics and "negging" weed out anyone capable of really loving them. Then they are shocked when every woman they encounter is a transactional creature without feelings like themselves. 2/
(DIR) Post #AjYVWSs1rFtH550CxM by venite@mastodon.nl
2024-07-03T14:00:08Z
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@futurebird @IngaLovinde @faassen @tj in the Netherlands we call them “coat protectors”.
(DIR) Post #AjYVckSfMtKlNM8SZM by serenebabe@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T14:00:22Z
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@futurebird so true!!
(DIR) Post #AjYVg2O7AquFqJZhnU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T14:01:57Z
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@Jackiemauro @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue I used to think this was more about young men who were just... well horny and who probably needed to learn how to have more casual relationships in a way that respects everyone, which I think is possible. There are, in fact, many horny women as well. Ya'll can find each other and use protection and be open about it not being a serious thing. This is something adult humans can do. But, it's not that at all. 3/
(DIR) Post #AjYVqHC0z7X8efnVb6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-03T14:03:30Z
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@Jackiemauro @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue These young men are deeply, dangerously alone. And maybe that's why they sometimes talk about "male friendship" in these odd glowing terms. They know a woman will never be their friends and the chances with men aren't good either given all the cynicism, and contempt for other people. It is, as you say... very very sad. 4/4
(DIR) Post #AjYWXPrybHwW19zmFM by mmezabet@craftgoblin.club
2024-07-03T14:11:56Z
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@futurebird As a little kid, I was pretty girlie -- long hair, lots of pink, etc. Then suddenly when I hit adolescence, everything got weird. I felt like I missed getting a copy of the "Girl Handbook" because even though I wasn't a tomboy or genderfluid, I wasn't a girl the way all the other girls were. I didn't travel in a pack, I didn't like babies or fashion or makeup. I couldn't relate to other girls anymore, but I still felt like I was one! It made me question "traditional" roles, for sure.
(DIR) Post #AjYYMJXRzynl6aEE64 by cwicseolfor@urbanists.social
2024-07-03T14:27:37Z
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@justafrog @daisy @futurebird US take: in my gen even girly girls avoided pink; under patriarchy its image exists only counterpoint an adult man. Women were formerly eternal legal minors; it's remembered in breathy baby tones & baby pink, infantile, devoidof agency at any age. A babydoll can refer to a child's toy, or lingerie; the owner belongs to someone else.A child trying to be seen as a person, girl OR boy, oft stands as far from that as possible.
(DIR) Post #AjYYtZ8F2lqD1WID56 by CatDragon@mastodon.world
2024-07-03T14:38:22Z
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@futurebird odd I should see this almost immediately after my mother and I had a conversation regarding the little girl dress styles we’re seeing so often on newscasters lately. My mother believes it a subconscious response to what may well be an enormous change in power, ‘see I’m girly I’m harmless’.
(DIR) Post #AjYZZSsSgiu9mutIB6 by Frances_Larina@sfba.social
2024-07-03T14:45:54Z
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@futurebird "But when many people feel like they could be ostracized, rejected from the tribe, unpersoned over any random little thing that failure is massive. "But that's the crux of so many NT social groups, from religion to politics? From a ND point of view, that is the glue that holds NT subcultures - even transient, momentary ones of two people - together.
(DIR) Post #AjYZopzr0u4dpog9Vg by cmcfaul@cityofchicago.live
2024-07-03T14:48:42Z
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@futurebird Years ago, my wife shaved her head for a Saint Baldricks Day event. She was one of four women among a bunch of men to fully shave. When people commented, her response was always "You know, little girls get cancer too." She would adjust her tone along the earnest/passive-agressive scale according to her interlocutor's tone.
(DIR) Post #AjYZzdvmDKulbBvMAq by MCDuncanLab@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T14:50:41Z
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@futurebird UM has an excellent workshop called 'Creating Climates Resistant to Sexual Harassment.' Gender expectations was one of the topics we discussed. It was framed from a business/productivity viewpoint, basically the argument being that people who are at the receiving end of rigid gender expectations are constantly having to waste their valuable mental capacity on avoiding/deflecting/withstanding criticism on their non-conformity.
(DIR) Post #AjYadGrTPANXdLo75E by MCDuncanLab@mstdn.social
2024-07-03T14:57:46Z
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@futurebird @IngaLovinde @faassen @tj Whoa, I did not know coat/skirt guards existed! I've been living in fear of my Ortlieb panniers since I caught a strap in my wheel once. A coat guard is exactly what I need.
(DIR) Post #AjYb3UeEllvpvA7VCK by econads@mendeddrum.org
2024-07-03T15:02:15Z
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@futurebird In my case it was being "too tall" and skinny. However, I think that if it wasn't that it would have been something else due to my general social ineptitude and inability to stand up for myself (and turning down the boy who bullied me).I'm not trivialising it, or victim blaming, it set me back years in self confidence and ability to get on with stuff, but bullies prey on the weak and if it's not gender norms it will be something else.
(DIR) Post #AjYeTFz6D6dppnr2ye by Elleaster@ohai.social
2024-07-03T15:40:52Z
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@futurebird People have been tellling me my whole life that I "girl" wrong. It's nice to be old enough now to feel more comfortable in my skin. Work boots and sparkly nails? Hell yes!
(DIR) Post #AjYf58ohJB3Wbm3PO4 by ossobuffo@nc.social
2024-07-03T15:47:36Z
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@futurebird @tj I went through a phase around age 9 or so when I reacted violently to anything pink. Even red was suspect. I have no idea where this came from.Remember when folks had fuzzy-rug toilet lid covers? I remember not wanting to use a toilet that had a red cover when we were visiting my parents’ friends.
(DIR) Post #AjYfLI3AkKPXsXWbQG by neogetz@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T15:50:34Z
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@futurebird this is a great thread. Gender 'norms' are awful rules there to control us.
(DIR) Post #AjYhCnBFpoohjJNfiS by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T16:11:27Z
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@futurebird When my kids were in elementary school, we had a lot of conversations about bullying. I don't like bullies and I wanted them to know how to handle it when someone tries it (because they inevitably will) and they all knew very early that I wouldn't tolerate them doing it to anyone else.Their teachers eventually told me that they were the first ones to go over there and stick up for other kids whenever someone was being bullied. I was very proud of them for that.
(DIR) Post #AjYhOAcb1QaPcGaxiC by pencilears@mastodon.eternalaugust.com
2024-07-03T16:13:29Z
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@futurebird @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue I once walked through a large sidewalk BBQ party that was having this discussion and I had to tell them that bisexuals are just friends with anyone who's cool.Also "gender norms are dumb" seems to be a very bisexual opinion
(DIR) Post #AjYhUdIbJRrKINK9ia by tstrike78@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T16:14:33Z
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@futurebird Because many people only feel that they're doing something "right" if they're in some kind of position to tell someone that they're doing it "wrong". The consequences to other people's mental health don't matter as much as massaging someone's own sense of correctness and righteousness.Self-righteousness can be a helluva drug.
(DIR) Post #AjZ5OiWbMstVfJaKQq by faassen@fosstodon.org
2024-07-03T20:42:22Z
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@futurebird@petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue The irony of the least rational men calling all women irrational always gets to me. Rationality requires self awareness and an understanding of how bias affects your thoughts and perceptions. And these guys have none of that.
(DIR) Post #AjZ62XAf07Nc2FJAW0 by faassen@fosstodon.org
2024-07-03T20:49:43Z
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@futurebird@Jackiemauro @petealexharris @Rob_T_Firefly @lienrag @martinvermeer @sewblue I think part is a defensive reaction on part of these men; if you are attracted to women and you don't quite know what they will do and are dependent on their judgment, that can feel very dangerous and unsettling. A loss of control. So it's easier to just blame and defend your ego, to counter the dissonance. Remembering that women are people is something that would likely make it easier
(DIR) Post #AjZBKNCvHcXk7Kgyzw by Okanogen@mastodon.social
2024-07-03T21:49:01Z
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@futurebirdLol, that's kind of funny. I just bought a hoody that is very "non-macho". Pastel Terry cloth, and was all "Can I pull this off?". But then I looked in the mirror and saw this old Cuban guy and thought "Fuck it".
(DIR) Post #AjZCoFBnl66rtJyW3M by pthane@toot.wales
2024-07-03T22:05:36Z
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@futurebirdAt a boys school in the 60s being labelled queer was the worst possible thing do everyone tried to appear as manly as possible. I thought I'd left all that behind until in 1982 I was teaching in a very conservative church school. One Monday staffroom talk turned to weekend activities which for most was Church, wash car and mow lawn (men) cook Sunday dinner (women). The looks I got when I revealed my wife did the lawn while I cooked dinner 🥺 Neither of us did Church or washed the car!
(DIR) Post #AjZezznjaw4IMD6sJk by LinuxAndYarn@mastodon.social
2024-07-04T03:21:30Z
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@futurebird @tj Being in a monogamous relationship doesn't mean you're no longer bisexual. My wife and I have been together 27 years and she's still bi. It just only gets expressed during movies and baseball games.
(DIR) Post #AjZfH948P1nq0txTxg by lysdexic@hachyderm.io
2024-07-04T03:24:35Z
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@futurebird I had so many feelings about this when I read it this morning. From birth my parents and their parents warred with each other over me and what I "should" be like. Mom would part my hair on one side and Grandma would reverse. schoolmates knew if I won the fight with my mom if I wasn't in a dress. Aunts would insist I needed to be more femme and stop trying to play with the boys or talk about important things with the men. I'm cis vanilla and I just wanted to be comfortable!
(DIR) Post #AjZfaLXiEmXWDEwuHI by YakyuNightOwl@mastodon.world
2024-07-04T03:28:06Z
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@futurebird I was strictly a gin and tonic fellow until it got really hot, and gears shifted to a seabreeze with gin.I remember ordering one in much younger days and some barnacle at the bar saying, "a real man wouldn't order that drink."Without missing a beat, this wonderful gay man turned to him and said, "a real man orders whatever he wants."That got a belly laugh from everyone including the barnacle.
(DIR) Post #AjZgZMaKybQp6sGv56 by nazokiyoubinbou@mastodon.social
2024-07-04T03:39:01Z
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@futurebird It's crazy how deep assigned birth roles go. I'm cis male, but didn't sufficiently fit the expected norms so ended up dreading every single day of school from something like third grade or so up until I escaped high school. I wasn't big or buff and preferred books to cars or guns or sportsball or whatever, so I had to learn to pretend to be normal enough to get by.
(DIR) Post #AjZid0iSQWHsLow9Tc by thesquirrelfish@sfba.social
2024-07-04T04:02:04Z
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@futurebird I have always hated bras and continue to feel forced into wearing them by social expectations. The first time it was some girls in middle school. Now it's just some sort of ... This is expected as part of professional wear. There's (large) men with at least the same size boobs as me working for the same organization and I bet we'd all be more comfortable if it was part of dressing comfortably rather than dressing gendered.
(DIR) Post #AjZoMLuay3QmtH3QZ6 by Kathmandu@stranger.social
2024-07-04T05:06:20Z
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@futurebird Yup. The radical feminist analysis is that gender roles and expectations are a system of putting people into boxes and saying any part of you that doesn't fit the box, means there is something wrong with you.The radical approach is to do away with the boxes, let everyone express their full selves.
(DIR) Post #AjaM1KhNgCuvUL1Qie by mattk@hostux.social
2024-07-04T11:23:31Z
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@futurebird growing up in South Carolina I had a good friend explain that she thought I was gay because I used lots of words and didn’t care about sports.
(DIR) Post #AjaN8ePaswUAbnkuhs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-04T11:36:06Z
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@mattk No wonder the LGBTQ inspires such fear in some if just using lots of words can give you a case of the gay.
(DIR) Post #AjaR3e9Cq9KY9pxYqe by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2024-07-04T12:19:58Z
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@futurebird It's probably part of the reason I always stuck to beer. I mean, I do generally prefer beer to mixed drinks, but also beer has a safely masculine image.Then again, I was never fussed about ordering diet soda, which for most of my life was marketed as ineluctibly feminine (while Coke Zero does have a very slightly different formula from Diet Coke, the main distinction is that its advertising is more male- or at least less gender-targeted).
(DIR) Post #AjaRChchHrFzXl4XCa by Wendy@chaosfem.tw
2024-07-04T12:21:36Z
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@futurebird As a trans gal, I recommend spending some time thinking on how you know what your gender is.Not what you were told. What *you* know.It's not your hobbies or what colors you identify with.Anatomy, chromosomes, and social construction are all wrong answers.If you can get somewhere closer to figuring it out, maybe those pains will be lessened.
(DIR) Post #AjaRmqMYGquB4dkmfI by mattmcirvin@mathstodon.xyz
2024-07-04T12:28:09Z
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@futurebird @mattk I got this kind of grief through my whole youth and it eventually contributed to me deciding I supported LGBTQ liberation on "enemy of my enemy" grounds: the same people who caused trouble for them predictably caused trouble for me. And a world in which bystanders weren't so concerned if I was gay or straight would be a better one for me.
(DIR) Post #AjaVfq3NQDqFu7hSFM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-07-04T13:11:45Z
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@Wendy This is Identical to asking how I know what my name is. It’s the one people have always called me and I like it because I’m used to it. There is nothing else there. That’s why the really strident opinions on the matter are so alien.
(DIR) Post #AjaWLmqXjg2q7WhQqu by Wendy@chaosfem.tw
2024-07-04T13:19:11Z
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@futurebird I have finally started to read Whipping Girl, and came across this passage this morning.
(DIR) Post #Ajaan570KgiePBfa8u by Drarok@mastodon.social
2024-07-04T14:09:02Z
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@futurebird Zach and Donald touched on this in their podcast (they played JD and Turk in the TV show Scrubs). A lot of folks identify with JD; he’s not a “manly man”, doesn’t drink traditionally “manly” drinks, etc. Turk was more of a “jock” type but not hugely, and both say they love the other aloud and in person.It’s lovely to hear fans citing the show as a moment of realisation in their own emotional maturity.
(DIR) Post #Ajb3o3mzdL2tGN81fU by InayaShujaat@paktodon.asia
2024-07-04T19:34:07Z
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@futurebird I’m of the opinion that if you’ve lived through the trauma, you should be MORE sympathetic, not less. Being made to “get over it” should teach one how horrible that is. We should NEVER force someone else to suffer the way we did. I’ll never understand this great human need to make others suffer.