Post AjHz8HEkPflaWWJ5vs by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
(DIR) More posts by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
(DIR) Post #AjFjyPdURYhY33nYsS by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T12:43:06Z
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"Communism is not authoritarian, it's a stateless, classeless, moneyless society where production is for use.the DotP is a transitional phase , and is authoritarian (as all class society is). The working class and it's class party monopolize political power and suppress the bourgeois and expropriate the expropriators. Proletarian democracy is the form in which this dictatorship takes."https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dn1l76/comment/l9zob5q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
(DIR) Post #AjFqds4mCxnnqriJIe by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-24T13:57:45Z
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@Radical_EgoCom in which, in both cases, people are enslaved under a dictatorship and have to work to pay for a small èlite of masters
(DIR) Post #AjFr2LphDzhz5gKhXs by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T14:02:15Z
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@ilfabbro Even if what you're saying is true and that people would be "enslaved" under a dictatorship of the proletariat (I wouldn't describe it as that), that still doesn't negate the necessity of a transitional socialist state to achieve communism.
(DIR) Post #AjFrivU14H0ZowUfHE by aumalatj@mementomori.social
2024-06-24T14:09:55Z
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@Radical_EgoCom If only...The vanguard party is just another capitalist class. The biggest mistake Marx made was to assume that they would willingly give away their position of power and wealth. That's how you get Stalinism. Any top-down approach like Marxism-Leninism hinges on the assumed benevolence of those who end up at the top of the system. Anarchism has its own problems but at least it's not self-defeating.
(DIR) Post #AjFsPCdtezGRCaH440 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T14:17:35Z
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@aumalatj All you've done is criticize the potential flaws of a vanguard party. You haven't negated the necessity of a vanguard party or transition state in achieving communism. There certainly are potential problems that could prop up in a vanguard party and transition state, but that's no excuse to completely abandon the concept of a vanguard party or transition state when it's very clear that some sort of vanguard will be necessary to lead the revolution and keep it on the right track.
(DIR) Post #AjFtXCUODKPYztCkmu by aumalatj@mementomori.social
2024-06-24T14:30:10Z
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@Radical_EgoCom It perfectly fits Marx's own definition of a capitalist class. If we assume that benevolent people will establish communism, even if doing so goes against their own class interests, then the same would apply to capitalism as well. Yet evidently this is not happening.
(DIR) Post #AjFuf8mNzTBLlKyLpI by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T14:42:53Z
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@aumalatj You have a very poor understanding of Marxist theory. The reason why most capitalists do not betray their class in favor of communism is because their main goal is the accumulation of capital. Aiming to create communism would contradict that goal, so they don't pursue it.The vanguard party within the dictatorship of the proletariat's goal from the onset is the suppression of all class contradicts and the inevitable transition to communism. Your false equivalency doesn't work.
(DIR) Post #AjFvUZSoXRNHI7LFZ2 by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-24T14:37:39Z
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@Radical_EgoCom unfortunately we already saw what state socialism was. That's (one of) the reason I better embrace anarchist view.
(DIR) Post #AjFw84n20DhPk0dTaC by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T14:59:18Z
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@ilfabbro Still, you haven't given a reason why some kind of transitional socialist state isn't necessary, nor have you given a reason why immediate state abolition is preferable.
(DIR) Post #AjG22syj5Zx7Nz0wC0 by aumalatj@mementomori.social
2024-06-24T16:05:35Z
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@Radical_EgoCom First paragraph I agree on. My point is that the same applies to the vanguard party. The cosmetics of it are obviously different, but both have it in their self-interest to perpetuate the current status quo. You claim that the party would go on to fulfill its intended goals, but what incentive does it or anyone within it have to do so? Mere sentimental attachments towards ideology won't cut it.Your wording in the second paragraph seems to agree thatsome class contradicts would exist between the workers and the party initially when the party is established. History has shown that instead of those kinks getting ironed out, they'll just grow over time.
(DIR) Post #AjG4YGhp7YmnrPCTNg by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T16:33:40Z
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@aumalatj These are all potential problems that a vanguard party could face, and measures have to be made to prevent these problems from happening as they have in the past, but the possibility of these problems happening does not at all justify an immediate abolition of the state. Some sort of state apparatus will be a necessity to protect the revolution from counter-revolution and imperialist threats, and a vanguard party that embodies the ideals of the revolution must be in control of it.
(DIR) Post #AjGXEeyW4mhY0d0hKC by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T21:55:04Z
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@Sindy Then, can you give me a non-state solution of how to create a stateless, classless communist society that can suppress counter-revolutionary sentiments, handle common criminal behavior such as SA and stealing, and fight against imperialist powers all without a centralized goverment, police, or prisons? The only solutions that I've ever come that sound in any way feasible at all require some kind of state, police, and prisons.
(DIR) Post #AjGfDWeAM189WVSgKm by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T23:24:32Z
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@Sindy You strawmanned my position a lot and added a bunch of things to my position that made it sound worse than it is. I never said a single thing about torturing people, incarcerating millions of people, labeling other socialists as counter-revolutionaries and having them killed, gulags, or KGB. I asked a simple question, "Is there a non-state solution to the problems I listed," and instead you started accusing me of supporting a bunch of stuff I never claimed to support. If you want to...
(DIR) Post #AjGfGQYjRbjjVmIsr2 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T23:25:03Z
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@Sindy ...argue against past Marxist-Leninist regimes then find someone who openly supports them and wants to debate, but right now you're debating against me, and it would be far more productive to argue against things that I actually say I believe in.In your paragraph about suppressing counter-revolutionary sentiments you didn't give any kind of non-state solution on how it could be done, which is what I had asked for. Regarding your paragraph on dealing with criminal behavior,...
(DIR) Post #AjGfIrW8BaNThRFRGS by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T23:25:30Z
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@Sindy ...once again I must reiterate, I NEVER said a single thing about gulags or KGB. All I said is that police and jails of some kind are necessary, and you seem to agree as well. I don't know why you felt it necessary to mischaracterize my position by bringing up gulags and KGB as if I supported them when I never said I did. If you wanted to know if I supported them then you could have just asked instead of incorrectly assuming that I did.As for your paragraph on combating imperialist...
(DIR) Post #AjGfQ0ZIvr8fnZ8jDM by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T23:26:45Z
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@Sindy ...forces, I'm well aware that there are non-state and decentralized forms of military defense, some of which have been successful in some regards, but overall militaries that are centralized and have state organization have been shown in both the past and the present to be far more powerful and efficient at achieving their intended goals and such a military would give better protections to a revolution. I'm also aware of the problems of a state military becoming...
(DIR) Post #AjGfSyyrIAuRk6Vjai by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-24T23:27:19Z
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@Sindy ...counter-revolutionary, but abandoning the concept of a centralized state military, as well as the benefits of such a military, altogether just because it could become counter-revolutionary seems very illogical. Structuring a state military in such a way where counter-revolution within its ranks is impossible seems more logical.
(DIR) Post #AjGkILybx8KheI97cO by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T00:21:25Z
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@Sindy I think this conversation has been exhausted beyond further meaningful continuation. You seem to have some aversion to arguing against what I actually said, instead choosing to argue against beliefs that I never claimed to hold. If you want to actually argue against any of the things that I've affirmed to believe in instead of bringing up things that I never claimed to believe, then you're welcome to.
(DIR) Post #AjHtzG0h6ZBoLGc5Vw by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T13:44:37Z
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@Radical_EgoCom you're right, I haven't since it could turn into a very long lasting and complex discussion (also in a language I'm not a native speaker)I'm not saying isn't necessary, I'm saying it's detrimental, because we already saw in the past how some elites who pretend to be guardians, leader, avantgarde or something else that preserve the original ideal, turned into the worst tyrants ever. Including of course Bolscevics, who (despite the name) actually was a minority of the socialist movement and once they got the power they reperessed other revolutionaries. Best way to reach the free society is acting like a free community, giving revolutionary groups the freedom to choose their own way into organizing a free society.
(DIR) Post #AjHufGigrBdKhnDzcG by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T13:52:19Z
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@ilfabbro >Best way to reach the free society is acting like a free community, giving revolutionary groups the freedom to choose their own way into organizing a free society.<That's a very nothing answer that doesn't give any kind of detailed solution on how to create a stateless, classless communist society, and it's answers like these which is why I'm no longer an AnCom.
(DIR) Post #AjHvGSuoTdW1FAdEfI by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T13:59:02Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @ilfabbro a note here, the word dictatorship means power, thats important to say when most people have in their mind, a military dictatorship.Dictatorship of the proletariat means workers power, democracy for the class of proletariat and the people, but suppression to the bourgeoisie and the reactionaries.
(DIR) Post #AjHwJCtWb9X8NYtswK by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:06:32Z
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@ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom The state, should be examined scientifically. The state is born due to the class division of the society, its tool with which the ruling class preserves the exploitation. State didn't appear because a man thought of it, the material conditions gave birth to it. Same goes for its abolition, you can achieve it by saying "stop it", but by constructing the conditions (a classless society) in which is no longer needed.
(DIR) Post #AjHxSpTAeADWZrj2vY by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:14:15Z
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@ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom The proletarian state is half-a-state as Engels puts it because while it serves as a mechanism of sustaining power - helps the the working remain in power - suppresses the capitalist class - helps construct socialism and deepen the communist relations of production It doesn't exploit any class, exploitation stops, workers don't need to exploit their bosses.The proletarian state is a state that the more it advances on its tasks, the nearer it gets in its extinction
(DIR) Post #AjHxcw2x32nRs7HSbo by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T14:11:49Z
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I still don't see any difference since the power is maintained by a military order. I don't see any benefit for working class from being exploited by bourgeoisies or by a party who pretend to say them what's better for themselves. As I already said, history has already clearly showed that "dictatorship of proletariat" means a reactionary society focused on the state control over entire life (totalitarianism). There are no "good" Dictatorships as well as there are no "good" States. No one ever explained how long a Dictatorship of proletariat should last, just talking about "till we will reach the communist society" making it a pure horizon, that you can never reach. @peterkal @Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #AjHxcx2dLi8WxQ8iki by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:24:10Z
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@ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom1) DoTP in USSR and Paris Commune was never on military order, most armed units were workers, the workers voted in their work places with the ability to recall their elected co-workers.Secondly the power of workers ain't such a shocking thing that anarchists claim it to be. Workers in a country rebel against the capitalists and their mechanism, they overthrow the power of the bosses for the power of the workers. @Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #AjHyNfxUgGN7aP11Rg by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:33:51Z
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@panos @ilfabbro @peterkal None of what you're saying, while it is a very necessary critique of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the problems that can come from it, proves that a revolution can be successful without some form of state controlled by a revolutionary party to manage and defend the revolution. It's far too risky to hinge the revolution on volunteerism from the community. A revolution needs guaranteed results, and that will evidently require some level of coercion.
(DIR) Post #AjHyOlN02xaIeuSq0G by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:32:21Z
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@ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom Of course there are good and bad dictatorships that's the whole point of sewing things through class perspective.For the workers the DoC is bad, for the capitalists is good.For the workers the the power of the workers is good, for the capitalists is bad.If you are a worker your class' power is good, the class power of capitalists is bad. Simple.
(DIR) Post #AjHyd3Kq38IkQmGcds by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:36:41Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @panos @ilfabbro The volunteering nature of the system lies also in the fact that workers established that system through revolution, that workers keep supporting it. In the evil Soviet Russia, workers decided to work on Saturdays to support the red army and the Bolsheviks, what an authoritarianism of them.
(DIR) Post #AjHz8HEkPflaWWJ5vs by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T14:42:17Z
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That's what exactly I was talking about: in the name of something called "revolution" communists will build an authoritarianism regime despite the will of commuities, a regime which will turn those "good" ideals into a fascist-like nightmare. We already saw it, not just in SSSR. @Radical_EgoCom @panos @peterkal
(DIR) Post #AjHzJ4pOtBarDvbJRY by j0nes@puntarella.party
2024-06-25T14:38:33Z
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@peterkal @ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom - Then why didn't it work in those countries where "the dictatorship of proletariat" was established? It never was the dictatorship of the proletariat, it was the dictatorship of the "burgeois rebels", and instead of even only gradually cede power to the people, it grew stronger and stronger as a dictatorship of those few.- Because the revolution should be almost simultaneous in every country, and because "capitalism was necessary", so we first had to catch up with the capitalist world.- I agree that the revolution should be almost simultaneous in every country, and if it could be, there would be no need for "new" states.
(DIR) Post #AjHzJ64KHB7v4VakLY by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:43:07Z
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@j0nes @ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom Again things need to be examined scientifically. You can expect the whole world to rebel simultaneously, different countries have different conditions, different lengths in which the workers movement has progressed. Also even if we could make one global rev without enough protection of it, without the suppression of the reactionaries soon most of revolutions would lie in ruins.(See Spain, but ah no forgot it was USSRs fault how convenient)
(DIR) Post #AjHzgDYgazsKxdoj7Q by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:48:31Z
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@ilfabbro @panos @peterkal Are you going to address my claim that a state of some kind is necessary to manage and protect a revolution, or are you going to just keep talking about how bad a proletarian state can be? I know that a proletarian state can potentially be bad, but it potentially being bad doesn't negate its necessity.
(DIR) Post #AjHzrq3lmyYDYXtiWu by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:50:38Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @ilfabbro @panos Also note that what they are saying is not that the workers state is bad but that the later non workings state was bad, different things. They forget the fact that by more effectively fighting opportunism you can avoid the capitalist Restoration and deepen the socialist construction. What happened to the USSR was not inevitable.
(DIR) Post #AjI1PBVp9MCjbHU5PU by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:07:46Z
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@panos @ilfabbro @peterkal A transitional socialist state has everything to do with creating a stateless, classless society. A socialist transitional state is necessary to achieve communism because after the abolition of the capitalist government, there will be a need to repress counter-revolution, educate the old capitalist ways of thinking out of people's minds through socialist education, and defend against other countries, all things that will require some coercive institution(s) to enact.
(DIR) Post #AjI1Wdg4pWuyyrpnX6 by ilfabbro@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T14:55:51Z
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maybe in Spain it was not a fully fault of SSSR as it was in Ukraine and other Russian regions, but for sure it didn't helped. Honestly I don't understand how people can still argue about the historical materialism, the necessity of an industrial society to make the condition of revolution possible after almost 200 years of events that just prove it was a totally wrong hypothesis @peterkal @j0nes @Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #AjI1WeUPoNBTUzNzzk by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T14:56:48Z
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@ilfabbro @j0nes @Radical_EgoCom If anything historical materialism and Marxism-Leninism are continuously proved right.
(DIR) Post #AjI1bcFVZKGfzwmRWK by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:10:04Z
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@ilfabbro @peterkal @j0nes The most I can do is suggest that you read about historical materialism to see for yourself how it's still relevant.
(DIR) Post #AjI21AmwI2C8MKbVXk by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:14:39Z
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@lorcon @peterkal @ilfabbro @j0nes Are you gonna explain why it was, or are you going to just claim it?
(DIR) Post #AjI23dnFQALqtavPlY by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:13:55Z
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@panos @ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom Lenin never said the state is the best thing happened, Marxists goal is its disappearance, he even said it's more of a bad that the workers revolution inherits, that doesn't mean the state is not necessary, the book which you used that quote was solely made to prove the state is a necessity. Also since we use Lenin to talk about theory here's more context.
(DIR) Post #AjI48eZKAJ50emvk6S by lorcon@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T15:10:41Z
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@peterkal @ilfabbro @j0nes @Radical_EgoCom DiaMat was an enormous epistemological failure. It was so in Russia, it was so in post colonial Africa and in Asia. Nowhere the élites that embraced ML theories nave achieved anything more than state capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AjI48fsVIU12iYuZdY by peterkal@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:17:33Z
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@lorcon @ilfabbro @j0nes @Radical_EgoCom How is dialectical materialism (basically consistent materialism)a failure?
(DIR) Post #AjI48ghCG0Z7Fmd3eS by lorcon@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T15:28:22Z
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@peterkal @ilfabbro @j0nes @Radical_EgoCom DiaMat is a failure because history is not a teleological system. Marxism has gave use some fine intruments to investigate the arcana imperi of capitalism but its failure are self evident in the history of xx century.
(DIR) Post #AjI48hIm0Ich8KD4Do by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:38:21Z
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@lorcon @peterkal @ilfabbro @j0nes Dialectical Materialism does not imply a strict teleological progression of history with a predetermined end. The fact that you think this is a sign that you need to read more on DiaMat.The failures of Marxism in the 20th century were due to many specific historical circumstances and in no way invalidate analytical tools of DiaMat or the other core principles of Marxism. Once again, I would suggest that you actually read on DiaMat and Marxism in general.
(DIR) Post #AjI4DBMy9fA7XqJLMG by j0nes@puntarella.party
2024-06-25T15:30:16Z
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@lorcon @peterkal @ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom Hystorical materialism really looks like fatalism.
(DIR) Post #AjI4DCOQLjv6ie01GS by j0nes@puntarella.party
2024-06-25T15:32:00Z
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@lorcon @peterkal @ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom Some kind of religion.
(DIR) Post #AjI4DDTmJJnU5XVoFU by j0nes@puntarella.party
2024-06-25T15:35:43Z
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@lorcon @peterkal @ilfabbro @Radical_EgoCom Like, we become good when we become rich.
(DIR) Post #AjI4DECRdFWgK4PTs0 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-25T15:39:14Z
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@j0nes @lorcon @peterkal @ilfabbro You really need to read about historical materialism before speaking on it.
(DIR) Post #AjI5yk9Ml7YwynBtlA by lorcon@mastodon.bida.im
2024-06-25T15:59:04Z
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@Radical_EgoCom @peterkal @ilfabbro @j0nes DiaMat imply a teleological successions in history and this is how it was used by third international parties. Marxism has some powerful tools - and i do not claim to discard them - but, again, the failures of this theory in the xx century are evident. And that failure were caused by the inherents problemi of DiaMat and not only by circumstances.