Post Aj7GRb4NDI7dRymQIS by danielquinn@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by danielquinn@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #Aj6rLo6JLwQFH4pRx2 by soller@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T01:34:43Z
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I am unfollowing @aral. No matter my disagreements with GNOME folks in the past, COSMIC and GNOME are going to end up with the same accessibility backend, @accesskit, developed by the amazing @matt. Thanks to funding gathered by @gnome from @sovtechfund, rapid advances are being made in Wayland-compatible accessibility features. Let's stop concern trolling each other and instead work on building a better free software world for everyone.
(DIR) Post #Aj6rOsXVJ54JuR0qiO by lucasmz@hachyderm.io
2024-06-20T01:47:03Z
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@soller What is the context here? What did this guy do? đ¤
(DIR) Post #Aj6rOtW7fhYewRNGCW by soller@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T01:50:26Z
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@lucasmz I disprove of his comments in this thread and others: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/112638000448055991
(DIR) Post #Aj6rSQRPiWuvvFr5lY by thestrangelet@beige.party
2024-06-20T02:17:17Z
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@soller @lucasmz Definitely your prerogative to unfollow, but I'm sure there are quite a few things y'all agree on. I respect that he's advocating for folks that are are underrepresented in FOSS.
(DIR) Post #Aj6rSRZFWsmNPqWrcO by soller@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T02:19:39Z
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@thestrangelet @lucasmz It doesn't feel genuine when someone targets others who are supposedly on your side, calling them things like "ableist" for not having finished their work. It reminds me of having been called a racist by Lunduke for supporting DEI...
(DIR) Post #Aj6rVrnQT65NdCnB9E by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T05:54:14Z
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@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz Do you know how long Wayland has been default on Fedora? I just looked it up. Since Fedora 25. For eight years. I hadnât even realised. EIGHT YEARS, Fedora has been shipping GNOME with a broken screen reader!And hundred-million-dollar corporations like IBM & Canonical ship operating systems today based on GNOME with a broken screen readers.Why do I say âableist?â Because this can only happen in an ableist culture.#a11y
(DIR) Post #Aj6ry6w9liU0hLLNM8 by katanova@social.coop
2024-06-20T05:59:46Z
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@aral People who feel like they're being told they're bad people with bad intentions are going to be less inclined to do what other people want.It doesn't matter if you're right; if the people who you're trying to convince think you're a jerk, the people who you're trying to convince won't want to help. I've had to learn that lesson a lot of times.You can't control other people, you can only control yourself, and how you treat others.@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz
(DIR) Post #Aj6s2BFhfNqvEwQXoG by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T06:00:34Z
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@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz You can unfollow and publicly shame me for calling out a glaring accessibility issue in nearly every major Linux distribution on the planet. What you canât do is both do that and argue that there isnât an ableist culture in open source software because youâre literally perpetuating it right now by showing the next person exactly what happens when someone criticises the lack of accessibility in your community.#a11y #linux
(DIR) Post #Aj6sFDPuvg7dibQ6uO by jstark@tweesecake.social
2024-06-20T06:02:56Z
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@aral unfortunately I agree. #a11y accessibility to the basic operating system is important. Simple items like a basic screen reader are important and have been left to oblivion since sun left the game and all others failed to care about the barrier...
(DIR) Post #Aj6skFPPZcvOsBysEq by katanova@social.coop
2024-06-20T06:07:40Z
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@aral There are proven effective ways to persuade people to work together to solve and address problems. You are not using them.I'm going to bow out, though. No one likes to hear the kumbaya bullshit because no one wants to think about how they can change what they're doing themselves.Everyone wants to start with what everyone else is doing wrong. See? I'm doing it too.Fedi is a place to yell at other people, less so a place to collaborate.@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz
(DIR) Post #Aj6stRhBGHp3aMg74S by penguingeek@mastodon.social
2024-06-20T06:10:10Z
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@aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz The man said "screen reader is not working". He expressed the problems with Wayland.No one could prove the contrary, but they criticized the man.Aral seems right about this.đ
(DIR) Post #Aj6t2yq9Or9wzKQ7bU by gvlx@masto.pt
2024-06-20T06:11:55Z
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@aral,While I do understand your frustration, a negative message is... negative. There's no sympathy for that, and the real message will not carry forward. It would be much more interesting to petition IBM, RedHat, Canonical, Suse.com and others for a stronger support for a11y initiatives. And by that I mean *money for developers* (grants, scholarships, whatever).#a11y #OpenSource #Sustainability #Community #justBeNice
(DIR) Post #Aj6tWgMOfjqMMSfMxc by yatil@yatil.social
2024-06-20T06:13:06Z
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@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz This might be shocking, but deprioritizing the needs of disabled users over mainstream features is the definition of ableism. This is not a breaking change in a minor version that is quickly fixed, itâs years of excluding people. Itâs the result of a systematic ableist process in an ableist world, carried out by people with (probably, hopefully) unconscious biases of exclusion.@aral is right to call it out.
(DIR) Post #Aj6tiWCsFUM8LTr81Q by vger@fidget.place
2024-06-20T06:19:20Z
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@aral Thanks for standing up. Just earned you my follow đ @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz
(DIR) Post #Aj6tp7gnnmJgKk0IxE by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T06:20:36Z
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@vger Ainât no way Iâm sitting down on this, ever :) đ
(DIR) Post #Aj6uHGE5ehCKv0zVy4 by heydon@front-end.social
2024-06-20T06:24:45Z
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@katanova @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz This is just a pretentious way of saying "shut up" and the motivations behind that "shut up" are clear.
(DIR) Post #Aj6uKabcLEQ2zdaDEu by furry@furry.engineer
2024-06-20T06:26:01Z
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@aral While it is true that accessibility on Linux sucks i don't think that someone wanting to unfollow you for saying what do you think about Linux accessibility is the reason to start throwing shit at each other because that's probably how this ball will roll
(DIR) Post #Aj6ujwUY6gou6wMlTE by Lehmanator@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T06:30:51Z
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@aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz the distinction between ableist as a pejorative vs. ableist as a systemic injustice is an important one. Discussion about the other -isms is similarly railroaded by this.It *is* ableist, but I dont fault individual devs for it, but this is a good opportunity for them to gain perspective on decision-making as it relates to disabilities.A group of morally righteous individuals sharing a blind spot will probably result in injustice as an emergent property
(DIR) Post #Aj6wnhADEo4Xdelryy by katanova@social.coop
2024-06-20T06:29:37Z
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@heydon I hope you find something worth being kind for.
(DIR) Post #Aj6wnhyCEy3S8g9mtM by heydon@front-end.social
2024-06-20T06:32:41Z
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@katanova I have, my career is in making digital products accessible. Your tone policing and lack of self awareness aren't going to stop that.
(DIR) Post #Aj6wqlLo7wF3UdeoQy by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T06:54:33Z
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@heydon đ
(DIR) Post #Aj6zwoAUrd7ppcwPPU by mindful@mas.to
2024-06-20T07:29:12Z
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@aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz so what is the solution here, yell at Gnome loud enough?
(DIR) Post #Aj75D88wrfO4Bfoqu0 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:28:03Z
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@gvlx No sympathy for criticism of eight years of excluding disabled people from your operating system = sympathy for eight years of excluding people from your operating system.Petition hundred-million dollar corporation to care about making their products accessible? I beg to differ. You *regulate* them. You *fine* them if they donât.(Of course, under capitalism, all that is, to varying degrees, theoretical.)So, no, sorry, I wonât be whispering âplease sirs, be kindâ anytime soon.
(DIR) Post #Aj75GfccqeFgt8O944 by xinit@mastodon.coffee
2024-06-20T08:14:23Z
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@gvlx In all seriousness, how do you phrase "this package in your distribution isn't working at all for anyone in any circumstances" in a positive light?The companies involved in creating distributions aren't charities. IBM, Canonical, RedHat, etc, should be working on this already. @aral#TonePolicing #NowNowJustBeNice
(DIR) Post #Aj75O9z0Mhr14uQZMm by heydon@front-end.social
2024-06-20T06:27:33Z
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@gvlx @aral In what world could a (legitimate!) concern or criticism be phrased positively? They are negative by definition. You just want to silence critics.
(DIR) Post #Aj75OB8G5mqmdtlTQe by xinit@mastodon.coffee
2024-06-20T08:03:25Z
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@heydon "I'm really impressed by how much the screen reader has continued to offer the same utility release after release""It's really notable that where other products might seek to just comply blindly like the sheep they are with accessibility laws and requirements in their commercial products. Where Fedora really excels is in going their own way, despite big government over-reach"At a guess. @gvlx @aral
(DIR) Post #Aj75OBrzLlQivj9zhw by heydon@front-end.social
2024-06-20T08:25:59Z
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@xinit @gvlx @aral That would be literally saying different things. Try to phrase "the screen reader has been broken for 8 years" positively.
(DIR) Post #Aj75OCcmXmrPGr3Me0 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:29:50Z
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@heydon (@xinit @gvlx was being sarcastic â you know what they say about good parody being indistinguishable from the truth and all that) ;)
(DIR) Post #Aj75WI0AR4FgGSqc9Q by xinit@mastodon.coffee
2024-06-20T08:31:40Z
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@aral Really? Oh, my bad there,. The #JustBeNice tag did induce a sort of dysphoria, but I paid it no attention. @heydon @gvlx
(DIR) Post #Aj75n7dwCYnT3qTbRg by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T08:34:33Z
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@xinit @heydon @gvlx Oh no, it was me fucking up the post. I was trying to tell Heydon that you were being sarcastic :)Apologies for the confusion.
(DIR) Post #Aj75rngnohOwci2zAm by xinit@mastodon.coffee
2024-06-20T08:35:26Z
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@aral Ah, so @gvlx is still wrong. Got it :D@heydon @gvlx
(DIR) Post #Aj75zGw3TlhzM5kCjA by anantagd@ieji.de
2024-06-20T06:21:11Z
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@katanova @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz I'm a blind person. I am forced to use microsoft, google and apple products because those are accessible and Linux, a FOSS flagship apparently, isn't. I'm done begging the sighties.
(DIR) Post #Aj77xddcIg1R5yT6pM by heydon@front-end.social
2024-06-20T08:58:58Z
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@aral @xinit @gvlx Sorry @xinit, that was good satire!
(DIR) Post #Aj787tU2F4G38QsRBw by Mindiell@mamot.fr
2024-06-20T08:59:12Z
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@anantagd @katanova @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz What about Orca screen reader ?
(DIR) Post #Aj787uQAkulK2k4roG by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T09:00:49Z
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@Mindiell Orca. Is. Broken. On. Wayland.Broken. Kaput. Doesnât work.Wayland has been the default on Fedora for eight years.Orca has been broken by default on Fedora for eight years.Do you see the problem?@anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz
(DIR) Post #Aj78BmSyH1bYWvEUUa by dick@annihilation.social
2024-06-20T09:02:02.664166Z
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@aral @Mindiell @anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz dont use fedora genius
(DIR) Post #Aj78F3LXyBHjkgJvbU by dick@annihilation.social
2024-06-20T09:02:39.161726Z
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@aral @Mindiell @anantagd @katanova @lucasmz @soller @thestrangelet omg it doesnt work on my precious fedora i cannot possible use anythign else
(DIR) Post #Aj7A7uFLbYB7PU8mIa by Mindiell@mamot.fr
2024-06-20T09:23:10Z
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@aral @anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz oh ok, from what I understand we should help Orca to be better.I can see some files didn't change for lot of years :/
(DIR) Post #Aj7GBLg6fdMx56gKAK by f4grx@chaos.social
2024-06-20T06:40:34Z
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@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz the patchwelcomism is real and quite annoying.
(DIR) Post #Aj7GNYdSK02qk6GOdE by katzenberger@mastodon.de
2024-06-20T06:44:32Z
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@sollerAs I see it, @aral has been calling out ableist behaviors, not arbitrarily labeling people, and most certainly not @matt (prove me wrong).The worst part of ableism in software development is to treat accessibility as yet another "requirement" in the list that consistently gets ranked down, kind of a bonus of grace. Like with pushing out Wayland fully knowing that this will exclude people.It seems to be hard to imagine for some what this means for people depending on features like e.g. a screen reader that is fully functional, and works during installation already. And sometimes this ignorance shows in very disappointing statements and replies.@thestrangelet @lucasmz
(DIR) Post #Aj7GRb4NDI7dRymQIS by danielquinn@mastodon.social
2024-06-20T06:54:19Z
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@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz I can sympathise with that, but the sticking point for @aral I think is that this isn't just unfinished work lacking a few features, but rather unfinished work that's remained unfinished for so long *while still being used as the default* for years. This decision, that an unfinished product lacking fundamental #a11y functionality was "good enough to ship" is an ableist one.
(DIR) Post #Aj7GV55E4z9DPAq9c8 by JohannaMakesGames@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-06-20T07:53:36Z
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@soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz Ableist is neither a slur nor a description of your intention. As with other types of discrimination, it can happen without intending it. I dare to say its probably mostly ignorance and indifference. The outcome is the same though, disabled people can't participate and thats a bad thing for them and society.
(DIR) Post #Aj7GYFSjwiPsSrLhTc by mattb@hachyderm.io
2024-06-20T08:42:50Z
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@soller @aral @accesskit @matt @gnome @sovtechfund I'm going to join you.
(DIR) Post #Aj7GYGT8CkK7aMXWj2 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T10:34:38Z
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@mattb Donât let the door hit you on the way out.@soller @accesskit @matt @gnome @sovtechfund
(DIR) Post #Aj7Glj711Lm8BZc9gG by anantagd@ieji.de
2024-06-20T09:22:51Z
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@yatil @gvlx @aral People had to chain themselves to the Capitol for ADA to happen
(DIR) Post #Aj7Gowfd4Ghn6YL6lE by anantagd@ieji.de
2024-06-20T09:20:01Z
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@gvlx @aral I already know there is no sympathy for disabled people. Our mere existence is negative. And so is our messaging, appartently.
(DIR) Post #Aj7GyLsugujvua2RuK by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-20T10:39:54Z
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@dick Yes, dick, that is definitely the actual fix here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with the rest of the class.@thestrangelet @soller @lucasmz @anantagd @Mindiell @katanova
(DIR) Post #Aj7IaccD2GPWl72OVU by leean00@discuss.systems
2024-06-20T10:58:06Z
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@aral @Mindiell @anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz Isn't Orca for Windows?
(DIR) Post #Aj7IhUncUeeyXreWR6 by svenja@fedisabled.social
2024-06-20T10:57:54Z
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@anantagd @gvlx @aral yeah, it often feels like that, no matter how we try to express our Needs.
(DIR) Post #Aj7RAu7oDBIv7ed6wq by aardrian@toot.cafe
2024-06-20T12:23:49Z
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@gvlx While I hate to pile on, itâs important to understand that the messge is from frustration with the ongoing and genuine harm that these kinds of barriers introduce.It is valid to be angry and suggesting otherwise is dismissive of that community experience as a whole. That dismissiveness is part of the problem. Your lack of sympathy as well.Historically, accessibility affordances only come after using this kind of advocacy. Which sucks.@aral
(DIR) Post #Aj7qFSm3pI02b6jBrc by wpeckham@pgh.social
2024-06-20T17:15:08Z
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@aral @Mindiell @anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz Yes, the problem is that you are using fedora. You need either something much more stable, or something rolling release that doesn't break orca. Orca runs fine on Manjaro.
(DIR) Post #Aj8xUvirNAqlYnVrVI by thestrangelet@beige.party
2024-06-20T02:30:07Z
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@soller @lucasmz It's the exact opposite of what Lunduke did. By supporting DEI, you are supporting the underrepresented, just like Aral is with a11y.
(DIR) Post #Aj8xUwqhBWiD3OBdM8 by soller@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T02:38:29Z
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@thestrangelet @lucasmz It isn't the opposite. Aral is twisting words to claim people are not supporting accessibility. Everyone involved wants it to be better, so why throw around words like ableist?
(DIR) Post #Aj8xUy1MpKqIgmBfd2 by katzenberger@mastodon.de
2024-06-20T07:40:21Z
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@soller @aral is pointing out the simple fact that companies with a quite decent overall budget are pushing out essential software that excludes people who had been better supported before. As everybody trying out accessibility features under Wayland vs. x11 can easily experience.Nowhere is he posting blanket statements like your "people are not supporting accessibility". These are your misrepresentations of what he is saying.Quote him correctly.@thestrangelet @lucasmz
(DIR) Post #Aj8xUyFBzvtxNeeiB6 by soller@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T02:40:29Z
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@thestrangelet @lucasmz I want to clarify that Lunduke is an actually bad person who I blocked completely. Aral is a good person who is just doing something I disagree with. There is a difference, but the tactic being used is not that different in my opinion.
(DIR) Post #Aj8xUyxrJrd9cBYNnc by mmstick@fosstodon.org
2024-06-20T10:13:50Z
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@katzenberger> From the actually-what-youâre-referring-to-as-ableism-is-GNU/ableism departmentQuoted the blanket statement.Not only that, but the post complains that a Fedora maintainer said that patches are welcome, and yet the first instinct in response to that is to want to block them? Not a productive attitude.If you care about the problem, then instead of calling people abliest, go help the people who are working on this problem. GNOME is backing AccessKit, which will be in COSMIC.
(DIR) Post #Aj8xUzVXIeZLIdJHI8 by katzenberger@mastodon.de
2024-06-20T20:15:55Z
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@mmstickI really admire your text cutting skills, your deliberate effort to make this look like a blanket statement.You are very well aware whom exactly @aral criticized in this post, and for what specific reaction.
(DIR) Post #Aj8xV0PXwPN86LW0au by ragectl@hachyderm.io
2024-06-21T04:06:25Z
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@katzenberger @mmstick @aral every linux distribution? is that blanket enough?
(DIR) Post #Aj8xV1Ah775OSZZf5E by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-21T06:11:06Z
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@ragectl @katzenberger @mmstick Quote me correctly: âa glaring accessibility issue in nearly every major Linux distribution on the planetâhttps://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/112647420910468423GNOME and KDE, the two major display environments, both default to Wayland.- Fedora, RHEL, etc.- Ubuntu- OpenSUSE- Any other distribution that defaults to default behaviour of GNOME & KDEPopOS doesnât, but apparently System76 decided this is their hill to die on anyway. đ¤ˇââď¸#a11y #linux
(DIR) Post #Aj8yH5t2sxE6z5F9wO by ragectl@hachyderm.io
2024-06-21T06:19:55Z
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@aral @katzenberger @mmstick in that case, I was referring to the statement here https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/112638007852850343 so you're quoted correctly
(DIR) Post #Aj8yg8zoSkPBrnLzbE by ragectl@hachyderm.io
2024-06-21T06:21:36Z
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@aral @katzenberger @mmstick so now that we've clarified that you're not just talking about IBM and Canonical
(DIR) Post #Aj8ygADJw0nvdygIIC by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-21T06:24:25Z
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@ragectl @katzenberger @mmstick Not that it needing clarification but, sure. I believe Iâve been very clear and consistent about what the problem is.
(DIR) Post #Aj9J0rRku6RCbRa02K by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-21T10:12:16Z
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@ragectl @katzenberger @mmstick No, without the rest of the sentence my words are out of context as the rest of the sentence qualifies it.âEvery Linux distributionâ is not the same as âEvery Linux distribution that ships with Wayland by default â and thatâs almost every major Linux distributionâ and you know it.Anyway, now the context has been added in this thread so I donât see any reason to bikeshed this further.
(DIR) Post #Aj9O3LzennFPgyRdfE by mmstick@fosstodon.org
2024-06-21T11:08:40Z
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@aral @ragectl @katzenberger System76 isn't dying on any hill. We have been committing part of our COSMIC resources to accessibility work so that COSMIC will have functioning accessibility on release. In fact, we are currently in the process of upstreaming our AccessKit work from libcosmic into iced right now.At the end of the day, complaining about problems on here won't achieve anything. If you want to see improvements in accessibility, then do what we're doing. Contribute, submit PRs, etc.
(DIR) Post #Aj9c5L1QmdHCcJ7BXU by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-21T13:45:55Z
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@mmstick @ragectl @katzenberger Clearly complaining on here archives one thing: it sheds light on the unchecked ableism inherent in the IBM/RedHat/Fedora/Wayland/GNOME/KDE world that allowed a screen reader to be broken on at least one major Linux distribution (Fedora) for EIGHT YEARS. How many features, details, etc. were created in that time?And again, you guys didnât ship a broken screen reader so I donât know why youâre leading the charge to shut me up but sure, whatever.
(DIR) Post #Aj9jeAzikzbbKbsGWW by mmstick@fosstodon.org
2024-06-21T15:10:32Z
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@aral @ragectl @katzenberger No, it sheds light on your desire to falsely accuse volunteers of doing things they aren't.Fedora is not Red Hat or IBM. It is a community project that is sponsored by Red Hat. Same goes for most Linux projects: community-driven with some sponsored contract work.If you actually cared about accessibility, you wouldn't be here bullying people with virtue signaling. You would be getting involved and sponsoring accessibility work. That's how open source works.
(DIR) Post #Aj9mHbHn8iJk4iFlMe by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-21T15:39:43Z
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@mmstick @ragectl @katzenberger You know what, Michael, you can take your âvirtue signalingâ and shove it.Gives me a very good idea of the kind of culture you guys have at System 76 if those are the terms youâre using. And Iâll be very happy not to have anything to do with it in the future. To think I was recommending you guys to people. Wonât be making that mistake again.Goodbye.
(DIR) Post #AjA1QYnBHMlCG9fL3g by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2024-06-21T18:29:49Z
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@Notsonoble @ArchyD @gvlx You want block? Be fossbro.
(DIR) Post #AjABYzZYarzlAvx7k8 by ahoyboyhoy@fosstodon.org
2024-06-21T20:23:28Z
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@aral @mmstick @ragectl @katzenberger lmao, bye Becky and your virtue signaling