Post Aj5d9l4VCFGht8NpAW by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
(DIR) More posts by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
(DIR) Post #Aj3gEr2SLkqtOAd0SG by gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
2024-06-17T06:56:35Z
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"Just last week, we reported on an article in Wired that claims nearly half of all renewable energy is being used to power data centers. It isn’t powering schools or hospitals or disadvantaged neighborhoods. It is being used to make more money for Google, X, Amazon, and Facebook."https://cleantechnica.com/2024/06/14/concerned-citizens-seek-transparency-about-data-centers-in-virginia/
(DIR) Post #Aj3gEuRNhXZXwLJSDo by gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
2024-06-17T06:57:02Z
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"Virginia is ground zero for the data center industry — it has more than 300 of them. Together they process about 70% of the world’s internet traffic. Within the next five years, they will cover more than 26,500 acres, an area almost twice the size of Manhattan, and require the equivalent of more than four nuclear power plants’ worth of power."https://cleantechnica.com/2024/06/14/concerned-citizens-seek-transparency-about-data-centers-in-virginia/
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge0MCqByrWsrIBM by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
2024-06-17T19:28:00Z
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@gerrymcgovern does that really matter, though? If the prices charged to consumers are the same regardless of where/how the power is sourced, it’s irrelevant which source is powering which consumers.
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge1Cfh7wq9bPBxY by gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
2024-06-18T08:08:30Z
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@jeffmarkel It matters because building solar, wind and hydro have very major environmental impacts of their own. For example, every year, 14,000 football fields of tropical forests are cut down in Myanmar alone to make charcoal for the Chinese silicon smelting industry. Coal is also used for silicon smelting. So, if the overall energy demand is growing, which it is, we get coal, oil, gas, wind, solar and hydro.
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge2EpqZGzMbQQyG by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
2024-06-18T11:53:31Z
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@gerrymcgovern I feel like I'm missing something here, because the sum of generated power is the same, regardless of where the power is used. Whether it powers schools, hospitals, or AI data centers, it's the same amount of power being generated. It doesn't seem realistic to expect that there's going to be a one-to-one replacement of fossil fuels with renewables, with usage being static - energy use continues to grow. If most of that growth is from renewable sources that's a desirable outcome
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge2jfztwWuFr42i by gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
2024-06-18T12:33:36Z
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@jeffmarkel The sum of power is not the same, unfortunately. It's new demand. And in certain cases, if a data center comes to an area, the other parts of the community may not be able to build because all the local electricity has been taken up. In an area, there may be a solar farm. If the data center takes all the electricity from that farm, then the local school or hospital can't move away from oil. AI / data centers, have more buying power, so they can buy up new solar, wind, etc.
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge3EW9Ec4RuHh7A by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
2024-06-18T12:44:52Z
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@gerrymcgovern I promise I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but I still don't see the distinction. Yes, there's new demand, and if it's being met by renewable sources, that's a good thing. Is the suggestion instead that, absent the creation of new renewable capacity, the demand wouldn't exist at all?
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge3bCmslFaGtoTg by gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
2024-06-18T12:57:37Z
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@jeffmarkel No problem. It's called the "Energy Transition"--a move from fossil fuels to "renewables". But if we have growth, the renewables are only meeting growth demand, not replacing fossil fuels. So, it becomes the Energy Addition: Coal, Oil, Gas, AND Wind, Solar, Hydro. In fact, AI / data centers are growing so fast, they are keeping coal plants running that were due to be decommissioned, and also driving new gas and oil demand.
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge40jFzB4rQqCGG by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
2024-06-18T13:21:41Z
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@gerrymcgovern This should be a problem only if growth is happening BECAUSE of the additional capacity. If the usage is increasing anyway (making no judgements about whether those uses are desirable or not - it's irrelevant to the question) it should be a net plus. Obviously we want renewables to supplant fossil fuels, but (given that overall demand is increasing) we can do that only by increasing capacity of renewable sources much faster than demand is growing
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge4SjZrZyGHwYue by cy@fedicy.us.to
2024-06-18T17:08:51Z
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It's a problem because we can't switch to sustainable energy sources, and we will all die if we keep using coal. Doesn't matter what's causing the growth. Anything that prevents us from living sustainably spells our doom. Either we stop all that growth now, slowly, or it'll all collapse at once, taking us down with it.CC: @gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
(DIR) Post #Aj3ge58D5ekwKvLgYq by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
2024-06-18T16:38:51Z
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@gerrymcgovern with all that considered, I still can’t see that it makes a bit of difference whether the power being used by a school, for example, comes from a windmill or from a coal-fired steam turbine.
(DIR) Post #Aj5d9l4VCFGht8NpAW by jeffmarkel@mastochist.social
2024-06-18T18:11:17Z
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@cy @gerrymcgovern believe me, I totally get that. My original question, though, was why it mattered if the renewable- vs coal- sourced energy went to public goods or to industrial uses - it’s all via the same grid so the destination of any particular kwH should be irrelevant.
(DIR) Post #Aj5d9m4BUubmyRF5JQ by gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green
2024-06-19T06:36:49Z
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@jeffmarkel Basically, if we didn't have this new demand source (data centers) we wouldn't have as big a energy problem to solve. We must shut down coal asap but because there's so much new demand, coal stations are being kept open. Growth is killing us. @cy
(DIR) Post #Aj5d9mib4ew0zm9MIq by cy@fedicy.us.to
2024-06-19T15:39:15Z
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Reduce growth, reduce demand. Less productivity means less consumption to fuel that productivity. Seems simple to me. There's nothing stopping this other than propaganda.