Post Aiv5ZfXC8iahrVEytU by ngons@mathstodon.xyz
(DIR) More posts by ngons@mathstodon.xyz
(DIR) Post #Aiv4U82x7RYebDtCxE by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:23:55Z
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Which of the following must a computer have? (choose as few items as you possibly can for it to be a valid computer)
(DIR) Post #Aiv4udLtLfwvDkO252 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:28:40Z
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dats ... you know "dats" individual datas...
(DIR) Post #Aiv581v1K1DjB3Co4G by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:31:05Z
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@alexocado Technically a Turing tape is a UI I guess, but that feel like we are going around in a circle now.If the "tape" can't be read and it's doing a program is it really a computer?
(DIR) Post #Aiv5Fm97qbi8ZnUqh6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:32:29Z
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the 0s are "dis" and the 1s are the "dats"everyone knows this 😆
(DIR) Post #Aiv5NZHJZeFez42i12 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:33:52Z
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@alexocado oooh I think we already have those!
(DIR) Post #Aiv5XWGFe90mWRI4WG by cammerman@mstdn.social
2024-06-14T13:35:42Z
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@futurebird It's easy for me to imagine a computer whose direct inputs and outputs are not exposed to users.I can also imagine a computer that receives a clock signal as an input. (Maybe AC itself could do in a pinch, you can always step-up the frequency.)But memory and processor seem to me to be what fundamentally makes a computer.
(DIR) Post #Aiv5ZfXC8iahrVEytU by ngons@mathstodon.xyz
2024-06-14T13:35:49Z
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@futurebird Fun fact: if you want to say ‘this & that’ in Swedish you say ‘Ditt & datt’.
(DIR) Post #Aiv5bHTmXxHNpsPfSS by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:36:05Z
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@futurebird memory just slows things down, so I only allow registers. Don't even get me started on I/O.
(DIR) Post #Aiv5kRUShBJpUT6ENM by nclm@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T13:37:55Z
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@futurebird I feel for output, you could have either memory or interface, but not none? Either the result is stored and you can access it later (maybe using another machine). Or the result is displayed/printed/readable and in that case you don’t need memory.
(DIR) Post #Aiv5mV04cJ4AxHrlmS by adriano@lile.cl
2024-06-14T13:38:05Z
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@futurebird dats a good bit. Dats a good byte. Dats a very nice megabyte.
(DIR) Post #Aiv5rn66l6mkWzDDiy by danblondell@masto.nyc
2024-06-14T13:39:23Z
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@futurebird Fuggedabou-bit!
(DIR) Post #Aiv61n5rd0z1PlrmQC by llewelly@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T13:41:15Z
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@futurebird according to lore, "data" is actually plural, because Noonian Soong made more than one.LOL! (or LAL, whatever.)
(DIR) Post #Aiv6TzxrMso1RQZaGe by cheddarcrisp@hachyderm.io
2024-06-14T13:46:18Z
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@futurebird Am I taking the question too literally by using the definition of a Turing machine, which would require a processor and memory? Or do the CPU registers and cache not count as memory in your question?Also clockless processors exist, though they’ve gone nowhere but the idea is fascinating.
(DIR) Post #Aiv6WQGUYQpxaeRa8O by kithrup@wandering.shop
2024-06-14T13:46:45Z
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@futurebird ... "memory" is a tricky one, maybe.
(DIR) Post #Aiv82qtDCU9bNxaAE4 by scrottie@anarchism.space
2024-06-14T14:03:38Z
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@futurebird Ladder logic style analog computers (typically built out of relays) that directly control equipment (output, but not an UI) have and need none of those, but the "Vote" button doesn't submit when none are checked. In EE terms, there's "sequential logic" (clocked, implies remembering intermediate state) vs "combinational logic" (unclocked, no saved internal intermediate state). The simplest computers compute a linear function. Pretty sure you know that =)https://ladderlogicworld.com/relay-logic-vs-ladder-logic/
(DIR) Post #Aiv9F49boE6TxBdj3w by janbogar@mastodonczech.cz
2024-06-14T14:17:08Z
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@futurebird Definitely none of those.I would say it needs to have a user manual, be deterministic and have no hands.User manual to show that someone knows what it does in enough detail to check validity of its computations or to change what it does.(Partial) determinism is also necessary for the same reasons.And no hands condition is there to keep up the mind-body separation, so that it's easier for us to reason about it. Machine with a computer in it isn't itself a computer.
(DIR) Post #AivAF1qeTvmykyJpuy by justafrog@mstdn.social
2024-06-14T14:28:24Z
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@futurebird Though, I wasn't being entirely honest.The ram is really optional, too, if the processor has registers.I just don't like working without ram.
(DIR) Post #AivBY70NdHWgCsX5VI by cammerman@mstdn.social
2024-06-14T13:38:07Z
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@futurebird As I think about it more... Maybe the question of whether a computer needs memory comes down to whether registers count as memory? I'm inclined to say they do.
(DIR) Post #AivBY8Tq9EgYmXK83s by natevw@toot.cafe
2024-06-14T14:08:32Z
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@cammerman @futurebird yeah that's part of it, and same with the clock — not sure how you have a processor without one. so three interrelated low-level options and one really high-level one.maybe I'm biased still working through the @mwichary box set, but afaict colloquially in our house a computer is one with a hardware [alphanumeric] keyboard? (vs "phone" or handheld game/synthesizer/"Alexa"/etc.)
(DIR) Post #AivBY9ZY5UqWAX0CbA by natevw@toot.cafe
2024-06-14T14:13:02Z
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@cammerman @futurebird like the kids were fighting and got temporarily banished "everyone off the computers" — but one honestly didn't think twice continuing to use his already-programmed micro:bit as a little gameboy thing (and I opted not to call him on it and get in this very debate with him as to what counts as "a computer" 😆 — his device certainly had a clocked processor with integrated RAM, connected to an interface intended for human usage. but they use "a computer" to program **that**…)
(DIR) Post #AivBtVNGDxiLrpR5GK by rrb@allthingstech.social
2024-06-14T14:46:56Z
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@futurebird Depends on how you define memory. State machines have no data, per se, but retain state. Those are Chomsky type 3. You can use those for regulating all sorts of embedded systems. Then you have stack machines, and tapes. I would, personally, only use term "memory" as of Chomsky type 1 and lower.
(DIR) Post #AivC14FKy73234KsWe by xorn@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T14:48:17Z
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@futurebird I think that would depend on what you mean by 'computer'. Analog computers have been used to solve complex problems but they don't necessarily have instructions in he same sense as a Turing machine and don't require a clock. By a much older definition of 'computer' a clock was required but it was only to tell the computer when their shift was over.
(DIR) Post #AivCkUHV1BzlpF0Mr2 by xenolon@hachyderm.io
2024-06-14T14:56:30Z
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@futurebird How is the answer ever not all four?
(DIR) Post #AivCuigaJilzOdcLya by MartyFouts@mastodon.online
2024-06-14T14:58:20Z
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@futurebird The smallest embedded systems require one input device, one output device, a processor, read only memory and a clock. They are used in process control systems to control the behavior of the system in response to measurements taken at the input. The ROM contains the program that processes the measurements and outputs control commands to the output. Computers may not need a user interface but they do need I/O.
(DIR) Post #AivD5ZTOuT700dcpMW by sandbender@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T15:00:07Z
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@futurebird IMO, unless we're getting to really unconventional architectures and definitions:Yes: Processor - going to call this obvious, inviting the relevant jokesClock - I don't think this is reasonably separable from the processor-unit. I wouldn't even count it separately. No:Memory - at least some kind of processor registers necessary, but you can definitely build stream-processing computers rather than a proper main memory. UI - can be external, as in a mainframe
(DIR) Post #AivEiaULAYEEPDEVqi by bluelinden@hachyderm.io
2024-06-14T15:18:32Z
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@futurebird what is a CPU with a user interface? a calculator. what about memory with a user interface? a light switch. user interface with a clock? a clock. a user interface with memory AND a clock? an alarm clock. just a clock and memory? probably a metronome.a CPU and memory? a computer.
(DIR) Post #AivFx5HZZfDtv6jmwS by australopithecus@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T15:32:23Z
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@futurebird Babbage's designs really only had a processor and I/O, and technically the O is only necessary for it to be useful to the human. But in addition to the bare minimum of a processor, I would also argue that a variable input system is strictly necessary for it to be considered a computer, rather than a machine.Also, the mere fact of existing in time and space with a physical state definitely doesn't count as having a clock or memory *system*.
(DIR) Post #AivHkc1iiiJZcPVGm8 by a40yostudent@iosdev.space
2024-06-14T15:52:33Z
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@futurebird memory and clock, but not for these reasons
(DIR) Post #AivObeFLnT7BZmYFay by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:09:20Z
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@futurebird i would really love to grasp why people run this kind of questionaires; is it to educate themselves, or others? to attract attention? to do a statistical survey? any way i turn this in my head it makes little sense.especially since (as noted by the other commentor) phrasing (and definitions i dare say) can drastically change everything about... well, any question and answer =)
(DIR) Post #AivRAwHyuJMjZrjnpQ by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:18:26Z
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@futurebird also, i really hate how lightheartedly people treat definitions and tend to not even notice how this erodes their understanding of the subject. example: a clock (wikipedia: «…is a device that measures and displays time»). can one build a computer (wikipedia: «a machine that can be programmed to automatically carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations») without one? sure. because of an error in naming. one needs to syncronize events, not count time.
(DIR) Post #AivRAxbrzqrvfq3CT2 by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:23:10Z
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@futurebird thus: one can build a computer without a _clock_, but not without some mechanism of syncronizing events. a simple tact generator, or even just a mechanical way of assuring some events happen in precize sequence and some others (nearly) simultaniously is required. is it a clock? well, in the context of _electronical_ devices it is customary to call a tact generator «a clock», so to build an electrical (analog or digital) computer one does need a «clock», yes.
(DIR) Post #AivRAydgAbuUrju9vU by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:26:57Z
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@futurebird but non-electrical, mechanical computers (within the above definition) are also perfectly possible. does a mechanical computer have a «clock»? it usually doesn't. however, there _must_ be some other way of ensuring the sequenciality or simultaneity of certain events, how is that achieved? and is the mechanism that does it (which can be just a system of levers) called a «clock»? no. so, can one build a computer without a clock? =D
(DIR) Post #AivRAyw744ehmuWseu by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T17:38:10Z
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@tivasyk by clock I just mean a crystal. I don’t know how to make a computer with out one.
(DIR) Post #AivRB0kqIwpRQXGuMy by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:28:29Z
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@futurebird but more importantly: what will you do with the answer since it's meaning depends completely on how you and the respondents understand and define things? do those answers still carry any bit of meaning?i've come back to the question about the meaning of such questionaires =(
(DIR) Post #AivRZ0jY29w8JQ6swC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T17:42:29Z
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@bob_zim @rrb but what is the point of going through a bunch of states based on rules if you don’t write anything? I guess the program itself might count as reading things— but no writing? wouldn’t that make a wind up toy into a computer?
(DIR) Post #AivRpO8SnHxhWcZcBs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T17:45:26Z
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@tivasyk I’m curious about how common usage and expectations differs from what I already hold to be true. I am curious about what I might be missing in the way I answer these questions since simple questions that are really very complex are common things I encounter at work.
(DIR) Post #AivSPXqw8u6E5VcH8i by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:51:50Z
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@futurebird now i think i'm in love with your answer. thank you.
(DIR) Post #AivT2AegKCMbR3Io2y by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2024-06-14T17:58:59Z
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@futurebird it is perfectly possible to have a tact generator _without_ a «crystal», which is also an error in naming, but even in the context of electronics, without a quartz oscillator. look up «one transistor oscillator», those were ubiquitous before quartz ones. it is thus perfectly possible to build a computer, albeit probably a much slower one that we're used to, without such a [not] «clock» = [not] «crystal» = «quartz oscillator».
(DIR) Post #AivTwCUWgWQjLZGkWu by rrb@allthingstech.social
2024-06-14T18:09:01Z
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@futurebird @bob_zim You said "must a computer have" you did not specify a given use. And, for example, there are lots of cybernetic (in the Wiener sense) of applications where you could just do a feedback control to stabilize a physical device.
(DIR) Post #AivU8HkMyF977bRTiC by rrb@allthingstech.social
2024-06-14T18:11:18Z
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@futurebird @bob_zim Feedback control, for example.
(DIR) Post #AivgX9BBA1g1EtbU7E by sneako@techhub.social
2024-06-14T20:30:14Z
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@futurebird pls pls pls ignore this if it is at all bothersome to the conversation but if you consider computers other than Turing machines, for example some of the old analog ones that were used for certain calculus-related applications, there's no clock and there is nothing following a list of instructions either
(DIR) Post #AivgymcicGXZOMfAMi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T20:35:15Z
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@bob_zim @rrb Is this like that model of th UK economy that used water? I’m on the fence if that counts as a computer or not. We discuss it every year. Every year I change my mind.
(DIR) Post #AivhQrFszNkRriN0zI by rrb@allthingstech.social
2024-06-14T20:40:19Z
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@futurebird @bob_zim Once you said "UK economy" and "hydraulics", my mind started switching back and forth between "trickle down" and "pissing contest." Until I realized they are the same thing.
(DIR) Post #Aivr1oNlX4f3G0key8 by IngaLovinde@embracing.space
2024-06-14T22:27:49Z
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@futurebird @bob_zim @rrb it's more interesting than that: what is the difference between the program existing and the program being executed?What is the difference between the initial state of the game of life, and its execution? Is the game of life a computer, or are only its implementations?What is the difference between uploaded mind being executed, or just stored?What is the difference between uploaded mind being executed on real-world hardware, or us imagining that it can be executed on non-existing hardware? For the mind itself, maybe it's not much of a difference. For us, it's the ability to interact with us; i.e. output.So "computer", in order for this word to be useful in an ordinary everyday context, is a thing that takes a program and gives its result back to us.
(DIR) Post #AivuhJpRoskSWRBQsi by andrewfeeney@phpc.social
2024-06-14T23:08:53Z
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@futurebird So this computer can only write 1s?
(DIR) Post #Aivvn6GhFZIe9mFWjo by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-06-14T23:21:13Z
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@andrewfeeney It can also only read 1s so ... it's gonna be a hard time getting anything done.
(DIR) Post #Aiw4g5yop5Sgp4cckK by bignose@sw-development-is.social
2024-06-15T01:00:44Z
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Given that this is a question of language usage @futurebirdof course "what are the essential properties of a thing to call that thing a computer"is a different question from "what do people mean when they say a thing is or is not a computer"