Post AitNsDzSBMWinPXJQ0 by elmussol@streams.elsmussols.net
(DIR) More posts by elmussol@streams.elsmussols.net
(DIR) Post #AihbPw3FndfSwk3GVs by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T01:27:04Z
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One reason why I'm no longer an Anarcho-Communist is the issue of criminals. When I was a AnCom I always had to rationalize the elimination of the police and prisons despite the continued existence of crime in ever-increasing impractical ways until I finally concluded that some form of police and prisons must exist during the transition into communism in order to maintain order and safety. Do you agree with my conclusion?
(DIR) Post #AihbnzibojfrGlrqTY by nus@mstdn.social
2024-06-08T01:31:21Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I think there are about a billion degrees between America's prison system and no prison whatsoever. And that a middle stance somewhere closer to "no prison" can probably be implemented. In my experience, a bunch of anarchists will default to saying something that basically describes a very reformed prison, but without giving it that label. But I'm always open to alternative viewpoints.
(DIR) Post #Aihd8BAR3oICWV4ViC by Rob500@ohai.social
2024-06-08T01:46:14Z
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@Radical_EgoCom But what about after the transition?
(DIR) Post #Aihed3nWbsrab9e23E by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T02:03:03Z
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@Rob500 After the transitional state, institutions like the police and prisons would wither away as they would no longer be necessary to maintain social order. In this envisioned future, people would self-regulate their behavior without the need for coercive institutions like the police and prisons.
(DIR) Post #AiiPdHrN1W1Q3Z3Mzg by traffopost@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T10:49:43Z
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@Radical_EgoCom How do we know that tomorrow you won’t become anarcho-capitalist? 😁
(DIR) Post #AiiPfdRtj6OfaqG5Ym by mazunki@fosstodon.org
2024-06-08T10:50:07Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I still consider myself an anarcho-communist, and both live up to the system of self-regulation and promote other people to do the same. I know it's a futile attempt until individualism disappears and moral agency is learned, so I push for these necessary things to (re-?)appearThe question I'd make is whether it's right to call myself an anarcho-communist while acknowledging that it would be a big mistake to get rid of the state at the current time because society is not ready.
(DIR) Post #AiiU6jTNpxxhua86qG by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T11:39:50Z
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@TanekRune Abandoning human rights, rehabilitation, and due process for major criminals doesn't seem like it would result in the best possible society.
(DIR) Post #AiijfVQ3ZwvBlyc4CO by M_el_viejo@lile.cl
2024-06-08T14:34:12Z
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@Radical_EgoCom without knowing how many generations would be necessary - and in a society permanently working in the same direction -To change or reduce antisocial behavior and correct mental illnesses of social origin, which generate common crimes, I think it would be better not to even consider such a hypothetical question.
(DIR) Post #AiiuqubXNdbYZ3cmEy by StonerMetal@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T16:39:31Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I generally consider myself a general leftist. I’m not sure exactly where all my beliefs fall within the spectrum because I can see valid points of each, but also some flaws. That said I know anything from the left would be much better than the inexorable crumbling into fascism that is currently going on.
(DIR) Post #Aij5ASr9FwcHq1t8eO by Sh4d0w_H34rt@cyberpunk.lol
2024-06-08T18:35:06Z
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@Radical_EgoCom to establish a societal foundation of justice, then yeah. Think of all those executives and ultra wealthy who have done significant social and environmental harms. With their power and authority stripped, should they not in some way pay for their crimes?
(DIR) Post #Aij7H9cnMAnQ80Uaky by abuseofnotation@mathstodon.xyz
2024-06-08T18:58:43Z
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@Radical_EgoCom One thing worth noting is that those things are actually pretty recent, so people managed to get by without them.
(DIR) Post #Aij7v2mYDV0sUP4nnk by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T19:05:57Z
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@abuseofnotation Police and prisons were created when human societies became too large to manage without some sort of dedicated group of people to defend everyone and a place to put people who need to be separated from society for everyone's safety. They weren't necessary before, but currently, they are needed.
(DIR) Post #Aij85LksWwMGEGCzPU by noisenerd@mastodon.social
2024-06-08T19:07:48Z
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@Radical_EgoCom My knee-jerk reaction is to disagree, mainly because I don't see the police as actually maintaining order and safety... but I do also see the point of what you're saying.The problem as I see it is that people can't be trusted with power over others, but without power over others, police are basically just asking you to be nice... and if that worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
(DIR) Post #Aik7uMGeTkrtn6myTA by abuseofnotation@mathstodon.xyz
2024-06-09T06:40:31Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I'd argue against that. What are large societies? There were large cities since ancient times.
(DIR) Post #AikQJcEO3wDpiPvHc0 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-09T10:06:47Z
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@abuseofnotation Some form of police and prisons existed in ancient cities that were at the size where it was necessary.
(DIR) Post #AikR4PjuK89uaFyv0C by abuseofnotation@mathstodon.xyz
2024-06-09T10:15:13Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Maybe at some cities at some times, but not universally AFAIK
(DIR) Post #AikRqNAdB72WW4Ljua by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-09T10:23:55Z
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@abuseofnotation That doesn't negate my point that they're currently needed.
(DIR) Post #AikRw6pKr7XBZ77l8y by abuseofnotation@mathstodon.xyz
2024-06-09T10:24:56Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Perhaps they are, I don't know
(DIR) Post #AikcQCiYWBEO41wTS4 by lukiworker@mastodon.de
2024-06-09T12:22:25Z
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@Radical_EgoCom start thinking outside of identities you can be on your idenitiy journey aslong as you need like I do, and speak of roles.
(DIR) Post #AipLLcL8UAAP3cpxtQ by Erebus_Amauro@ohai.social
2024-06-11T19:04:40Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Agree but most probably in a way we can't conceive in our present situation. First of all, punitivism and all means of getting the poor and oppresed behind bars should be eliminated, and with this a lot more things that would make some not recognise it as actual prision.
(DIR) Post #AipNAOVrklH2tfdGLo by Sine_Nomine@mstdn.social
2024-06-11T19:25:02Z
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@Radical_EgoComthere are only criminals because of capitalismonly crime because capitalism causes shortages of goods & servicesThere is only prisons to deal w the disease of capitalismDo not desert your ambition for a better world Capitalists & capitalism want you, me & everyone to give up hopeDO NOT GIVE UP!capitalism has had its day, Communist is next up More people see now that capitalism is not the answer, greed is not good, sharing isHumans share, sociopathic capitalists don't
(DIR) Post #AipWhHteGzApWJW38K by JellyLorEm@mastodon.social
2024-06-11T21:11:51Z
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@Radical_EgoCom open to anybody answering, I'm curious what the solution to not having prisons and police would be? i won't argue with you or anything, I'm just trying to learn
(DIR) Post #AisUnU5ZPCfJnY7kgK by sockpupp3t@social.vivaldi.net
2024-06-13T07:34:41Z
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@Radical_EgoCom this is hard. There are always elements in society who resist change, the corrupt and the powerful who want to maintain their status quo, and also those who refuse to contribute to the community, but just take from it.But police and judicial systems are part of what needs dismantling. They will resist, armed and legally protected.I have never read anything that explains how this transition can be accomplished, the difficult bit is always skipped over.How do you dismantle a proto-fascist system without widespread chaos and revolution?
(DIR) Post #AismnzKx1Z41t4hyiW by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T10:56:29Z
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@sockpupp3t You can't dismantle any state without revolution. Reforms are inefficient because they are at the behest of the very system they seek to dismantle and will always be stopped by those in power. The way you can dismantle a proto-fascist system without an overabundance of chaos is with a well-organized revolution where the current system is replaced with a socialist state that will inevitably wither away as the conditions for a stateless classless society are created.
(DIR) Post #AitDCezEQ9lWosySzA by gooba42@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T15:52:16Z
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@Radical_EgoCom Bad actors will always exist and we are always going to need some way collectively to discourage them from acting on their worst impulses.That doesn't have to be overwhelming force and violence but it does have to counterbalance the rewards for acting badly.
(DIR) Post #AitDqLfTfNFOUHewMq by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T15:59:27Z
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@gooba42 Realistically, I don't see how these bad actors can be repressed without some form of police using some level of violence and force to an extent.
(DIR) Post #AitEbhQ4c1RfYj25ya by nemo@urbanists.social
2024-06-13T16:07:57Z
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@Radical_EgoCom We live in a society, and societies by definition have rules. In large scale societies, you need some degree of specialization, including people who specialize in enforcement of the rules. In other words, police.That doesn't mean you have to accept every version of law enforcement, though, especially if it exists to protect the ruling class and has no obligation to help the people
(DIR) Post #AitFk2nF84D07SPg36 by gooba42@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T16:20:43Z
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@Radical_EgoCom I think that's where I land, I don't favor it *as* violence but I don't believe it could be excluded entirely.
(DIR) Post #AitGbH4ilAzXlHyERk by RinostarGames@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-06-13T16:30:18Z
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@Radical_EgoCom The only revolution anyone needs is within. Nothing else will work. Be the example, spread the inner revolution. Oppressive systems can only exist so long as we play along. We have to train each other to recognize whatever oppression comes our way and avoid it with humor. Violence isn't necessary. When more and more of us reject the systems of power, they will fail. It will take a long time and seem very slow, but it's the only real fix.
(DIR) Post #AitHRbADJeuh7jUQO8 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T16:39:47Z
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@RinostarGames This is a very naïve and foolish take. Pacifism is a position that only unaware privileged people who don't understand the nuances of the real world can hold. It may upset your privileged fragile feelings to hear this, but violence is sometimes necessary, and the world is more complicated than "murder is always bad."
(DIR) Post #AitI71aZyLrcx9Zk0m by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T16:47:11Z
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@burnoutqueen @RinostarGames There's a huge difference between wanting to pursue the least violent avenue (which is logical) and pacifism (which is illogical, as it fallaciously generalizes every single possible scenario and concludes that all of those scenarios would be better without violence, which is an impossible conclusion to make unless you know every single things about every scenario that will ever exist).
(DIR) Post #AitIoKqiEt9J8im2Qi by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T16:55:00Z
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@burnoutqueen @RinostarGames Not at creating socialism. Nonviolence can only go so far, and while nonviolent methods can be useful, ultimately, the creation of socialism will require a revolution where the working class will have to forceful overthrow the bourgeois ruling class. How much violence will be required will vary depending on the circumstances (the Russian Revolution, for example, was relatively peaceful in terms of people who died during the overthrow of the Tsar).
(DIR) Post #AitJd5I7qINJelnLvs by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T17:04:12Z
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@burnoutqueen @RinostarGames Reforms will not create socialism. Besides it being intuitively obvious that the ruling class won't just let their power be reformed away, there are also historical examples of reformist trying and failing to create socialism through reforms (the SPD in Germany and President Salvador Allende in the 1970s).
(DIR) Post #AitKcZGqzgNiIiWABk by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T17:15:18Z
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@burnoutqueen @RinostarGames What you've described only further proves my point. If reformists try to create socialism through reforms, then when they're inevitably attacked by the ruling class through the police and military, they'll have to defend themselves with a military force equal to the states and enact their reforms against the wishes of the state and their supporters. That's a revolution!
(DIR) Post #AitLQOmYGUAOFY6axM by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T17:24:20Z
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@burnoutqueen @RinostarGames Besides the fact that it would be very difficult and unlikely to undermine every single attack before it happens, what exactly do you think "undermining an attack" entails? It entails violence. That's the reality of class "war." It isn't called "class war" just to make it sound cool; it's because it's an actual war.
(DIR) Post #AitNsDzSBMWinPXJQ0 by elmussol@streams.elsmussols.net
2024-06-13T17:47:24Z
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What happened to the military are workers/peasants in uniform and the police are implacable class enemies?
(DIR) Post #AitNsFBBlDVYU62CLg by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2024-06-13T17:51:41Z
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@elmussol I applied logic and reason and concluded that some form of policing will be necessary to keep people safe, and some better form of prisons than what we have now will be necessary to separate dangerous people from the rest of the population.