Post AiIFBgIXpToCT0k8f2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by futurebird@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AiHMtumNr2rSdtmOP2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T09:41:46Z
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I have a soft spot for Libertarians even though I shouldn't and they don't deserve it. When I was a kid I had a weird neighbor who was always giving me Libertarian books... I wish I still had some of them they were WILD. He was a thorn in the side of the local, school board as well insisting that if they had an event at the school that involved politics Libertarians had to be included. And in defense of the guy, he was about as likable and earnest as a Libertarian could be. 1/
(DIR) Post #AiHN6nQMVozvaycaVU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T09:44:09Z
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This was the 90s and I think Libertarians weren't as horrible back then. You still had people who were more like anarchists with dreamy notions of freedom from "the state" involved. At some point that all dissolved and they just became another flavor of right wing reactionary. And I was a little sad to see the Trumpers taking over their convention this year. That is the death nail of anything ever was. (But really Rand Paul was the death nail.)2/
(DIR) Post #AiHNPJlezy9j7TPo5Q by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T09:47:28Z
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My weird Libertarian neighbor passed away back in 2005. I'm glad he didn't have to see this. I'm also glad he's not around to hear me say that I think they deserve this fate. American Libertarians used to sincerely care about freedoms in their own strange way. They would explain to you how you needed to hire your own private police (which sounded awful to me even as a teen) but somewhere in all those bad ideas was a commitment to a combination of freedom and tolerance. Where did it go?3/3
(DIR) Post #AiHO3mD0fsF6uZV3ui by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T09:54:44Z
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@futurebird There was a real "left libertarian" movement. A lot of it was queer, and a lot of it died before AZT.The survivors and most of the rest of it either went to the Democrats for survival, with a few going anarcho-leftist of one sort or another.That left the "right libertarians" who no longer had to bargain with the left and, well, we know how that went.
(DIR) Post #AiHPZ6mWKqaVeEc7Yu by HauntedOwlbear@eldritch.cafe
2024-05-26T10:11:35Z
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@futurebird yeah, I knew some US libertarians via the internet in the late 90s and many of them weren't too philosophically different to black flag anarchists. Lot of queer kids and kindhearted alternative subculture types.In the years that followed, a lot of them switched over to more European style anarchism, and a couple of them sadly came out as unconscionable arseholes who'd only ever been paying lip service to notions of personal liberty, which seems to be where the dominant strain of US libertarianism ended up.
(DIR) Post #AiHPu1xhRxBWmUorYW by billiglarper@rollenspiel.social
2024-05-26T10:15:24Z
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@futurebird Thank you. It's nice to read something positive about folks that don't share one's own political views for once.
(DIR) Post #AiHQ43VsXMVoUKaQXw by faassen@fosstodon.org
2024-05-26T10:17:05Z
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@futurebirdThere's this guy Eric S Raymond who was extremely influential on the early open source movement who demonstrated this trajectory to me. He devolved from a quirky "freedom!" libertarian into a, well, a LOT worse over the years. Perhaps it was always in him - there were definitely signs. But the angry, ugly screeds came later.
(DIR) Post #AiHQHz0Y5IpCZMZbfM by ohyran@social.piewpiew.se
2024-05-26T10:19:43Z
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@futurebird I have no idea about the US political scene but liberterianism exist I think more as an instinct or urge in general that can be added to almost anything.A sort of underdog fury at being told what to do by strangers with power, a cheeky "pfft they SAY you shouldn't make moonshine, so I have a small still in the backyard"Its when it gets in to the area of weird right wing economics that I get the feeling its awkwardly naive at best, and horribly subservient to power at worst.
(DIR) Post #AiHQNDRhpd3ynPlryi by ehproque@paquita.masto.host
2024-05-26T10:17:32Z
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@moira @futurebird i don't understand. You don't mean plain anarchists?
(DIR) Post #AiHQNECV1eUf8XfEum by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T10:20:41Z
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@ehproque @moira "Anarchists"Is a big umbrella of a word wherein you can find very different philosophies. At the moment the term seems to be used more by those who sincerely support the idea of popular distributed power. People skeptical of concentrations of power, especially the state, but not limited to the state.
(DIR) Post #AiHQfFeoLfqGroV7ce by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T10:23:58Z
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@billiglarper We used to have so many more interesting conversations about the best way to ensure power was distributed not concentrated, to create a world with as little coercion as possible... They were always right about everything the government does being backed by violence. And right to point out monopolies of violence. But in this political moment I'm kind of focused on preserving the little bubbles of freedom that even let such conversations happen. No time for the big ideas.
(DIR) Post #AiHQyTPRRVoV1KTg9o by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T10:27:26Z
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@futurebird @ehproque and while I don't call myself an anarchist, I am, as you put it, "skeptical of concentrations of power," and definitely not limited to the state.I had a lot of arguments with state-focused people and often made some inroads by talking about how non-state actors pick up characteristics of states as they gain power.
(DIR) Post #AiHRN24sCNIhUZZG2i by mensrea@freeradical.zone
2024-05-26T10:31:52Z
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@futurebird i think the problem with the libertarians is when it really got going, they did correctly identify there was a problem, they looked in the right direction to find the problem, and then totally misunderstood it. they also had a very naive view so the movement was easily co-opted
(DIR) Post #AiHSeEMhrn0ATjfpWC by cwicseolfor@urbanists.social
2024-05-26T10:46:12Z
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@futurebird @billiglarper Texan here with the same experience, as they tended to be the remaining ideological conservatives post 9/11. The commitment to principles (vs. cults of personality) was often there, albeit frequently next to gaping blind spots about unequal access to power in the present day.The political culture pivoted to strict with-or-against-us cults of religious fervor starting 9/11 through tea party up to the last admin. All emotion, no thought.
(DIR) Post #AiHWaMS2GEoKDOZoEC by billiglarper@rollenspiel.social
2024-05-26T11:30:17Z
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@futurebird I get you. Here in Germany, things where never that great (there were always populist tendencies and assholes), but you could actually have discussions with folks. Libertarianism (Ayn Rand style) was never much of a thing. But center left and center right folks mingled quite a lot. The state chief whips of the two big parties actually did school visits together to answer questions and encourage action. Now it's all culture war and fake outrage. š
(DIR) Post #AiHXnRUSw7frYwVynA by CurtAdams@urbanists.social
2024-05-26T11:43:49Z
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@futurebird I was a left libertarian until Enron started turning out the lights in California in the 90's.
(DIR) Post #AiHZQW3tyPAQzNHkxs by jonquass@techhub.social
2024-05-26T12:00:57Z
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@futurebirdMy personal take on this is it sounds like your old neighbor liked thinking about freedom as freedom "from" things. Freedom from oppression and violence from the state.Now, we have the freedom "to" version of libertarian. They want to be free to do whatever they want, and don't care if it conflicts with your freedom "from" them.
(DIR) Post #AiHZVCC5Gm1cojLNyq by jonquass@techhub.social
2024-05-26T12:02:53Z
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@futurebirdI just recently got into a big debate with some anarchists on masto about whether they should vote or not. Interesting to hear how conflicted the community seems about it in today's environment where voting is under attack.@ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHZYxLMQOtFuyTaHw by Timpostma@mastodon.world
2024-05-26T12:03:39Z
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@futurebird sorry I cannot vote in tj United States i am Canadian
(DIR) Post #AiHZev7JcFVEkYkalU by AlexanderKingsbury@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:04:16Z
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@futurebird It didn't "go" anywhere. We're still here. A lot of us still believe that, say, weed should be legal, borders should be essentially open (with the possible exceptions of things like wanted criminals or highly infectious people), etc. We've been for legalizing drug use way longer than Biden ever was. For free speech, generally against war, for free markets for many decades now.
(DIR) Post #AiHZxswfujkZW6ohRw by paulc@mstdn.social
2024-05-26T12:08:05Z
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@futurebird my memory of Libertarians from the 70s and 80s was different. Lots of racism. Job of police was to defend private property . Dislike of democracy (limit voting to property owners). My libertarian friends couldnāt understand why my anarchist friends disagreed with them. To his credit, one L friend spent hid time as a lawyer defending small people once he was disillusioned about people he respected.
(DIR) Post #AiHa3fiE1kVGDFojGi by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:08:36Z
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@jonquass @ehproque @moira I think it is weird how some people take see voting as reflection of who they are. As identity. Confusing voting (which I see as my opportunity to give the behemoth a kick that may or may not send it moving in a better direction or at least steer it away from me and my friends) with swearing allegiance. Pledging fealty. They act as if voting for someone is saying you love them, agree with everything they do forever, will marry them & kiss them. I don't get it.
(DIR) Post #AiHaAJ7cPs1aB1rJPU by Tracey_Writes@c.im
2024-05-26T12:10:03Z
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@futurebird i did learn recently, although I'm not aware of all the details so if anyone wants to add more feel free, that libertarians used to basically just be anarchists, or at least a subset of anarchists. Then you had this more right leaning group come along and they purposely named themselves libertarians because of the anarchist group, but their ideals were very much in opposition. I'm not sure exactly when this happened, but I imagine it caused a lot of confusion for people who called themselves libertarians to have two groups calling themselves libertarians and doling out a lot of conflicting information. It wouldn't be hard to image a lot of people getting pulled in both directions.
(DIR) Post #AiHaa2KtRrMde5Kw2i by dogfox@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:14:58Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira People need to feel like they belong to something. Some people get weird ideas about how that works.
(DIR) Post #AiHamlrnzXV6KdnrNo by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:17:11Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira I'm not going to vote, and most anarchists do not vote. We oppose the state, not just one bad politician.Voting in the next election, assuming that anyone reading this would vote for Biden, is not an expression of fealty but it is an approval of genocide. Biden is now officially a genocide supporter and a vote for him means that you think that this is not disqualifying.
(DIR) Post #AiHawjzzn7FzR0O7wu by angst_ridden@toot.community
2024-05-26T12:19:03Z
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@futurebird I recently suggested here that voting was like āchoosing your enemyā. Theyāre both against you, but you choose the one who is less harmful. I was amazed at the leftists falling over themselves to surrender even this tiny bit of power, calling me names, flat out misreading what I had written, and lecturing me on irrelevancies. The Left is too pure to nudge the balance towards the evil status quo and away from people who literally will send them to concentration camps.
(DIR) Post #AiHbGGSBLklRaosisC by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:22:41Z
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@richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira No it's not an "approval of genocide" nor is it an approval of anything else any canidate represents since even if only a few thousand voted and everyone else did as you would: abstaining-- ***the election would still be valid under the current laws***We do not have a law that says that "if too few people vote the state is no longer valid"You can say it feels like that *should* be true but it's just a feeling. It's literally not how it works.
(DIR) Post #AiHbVTVJ6wZuPab2AK by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:25:26Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira I didn't say the election would no longer be valid. Of course it'll still be valid, just as no protest can be valid because it will end with a cop hitting you with a baton which settles the matter.What I wrote is that people know that Biden is carrying out genocide and they are going to vote for him anyways. We went from "never again" to "sure, I'll go along with this genocide".
(DIR) Post #AiHbxxNZd3ibB0YnIG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:30:36Z
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@richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira So abstaining is a personal action, and personal actions can have whatever meanings we want. If it's a big deal to you, if you can't shake the feeling of surrender to "the system" ? Yeah, I can understand how some people might *feel* that way. I simply hope there will not be so many overcome in that manner that I will need to abandon all resistance for survival. Still as you don't vote *for* the republican I won't blame you for what happens.
(DIR) Post #AiHcDMrNAu00XyqZpQ by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:33:20Z
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@richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira If the group of people intent on doing you harm are pushing a form of protest maybe it's not such an effective form of protest?It's not an effective form of protest. It will make protesting even harder. It will elevate people people who will crack down on real protests and pass laws to make protest illegal as they have already started to do.It's shooting nearly every protest movement in the foot. It's not helpful.
(DIR) Post #AiHcVrcTY8bt9vhNLs by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:36:23Z
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@futurebird Every US protest ends with a cop's baton. There is no form of protest, effective or ineffective, that will not. Similarly, every election season ends with an election, and all the cops that we have make that a valid election.People have moral responsibility for their decisions. If they want to vote for genocide, OK, but it is a voluntary action and they shouldn't blame it on the cop who is going to ensure validity no matter what.@jonquass @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHcZP8HPDAzxzGMpU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:37:20Z
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@richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira I don't understand what you mean by this.
(DIR) Post #AiHcfLlKqf4nFgMknQ by RogerBW@emacs.ch
2024-05-26T12:37:37Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira It's particularly perverse in a two-party system, where the winning side can say "we won by a huge margin, therefore we have a mandate to fulfil the wildest dreams of the sort of people who go to party conferences". No, they just disliked the other lot more than they disliked you, and you know it.
(DIR) Post #AiHcuvuyhmlnjKJ5wO by angst_ridden@toot.community
2024-05-26T12:41:15Z
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@futurebird it also show a profound lack of understanding of history.
(DIR) Post #AiHdY88TDLQSurJBL6 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:48:12Z
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@angst_ridden This whole "voting for Biden is approving genocide" line is insidious since many Americans don't pay enough attention for foreign policy. They feel insecure about how little they know, if they are conscientious people willing to (rightly) question US military policy. They think: "Maybe the right move is to not be a part of it."It would *feel* better to not be a part of it. But, that is all. It feels better.Use every lever of power you can reach. Abdicate nothing.
(DIR) Post #AiHe48xRh13kjUPuF6 by angst_ridden@toot.community
2024-05-26T12:53:11Z
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@futurebird absolutely! The Right understands power. Theyāll vote for a candidate they hate if that candidate will advance their agenda in any way.I wish there were a viable leftist candidate on the ballot, but thereās not, so I have to vote to minimize the harm. I donāt have any illusion that thatās improving the world, but even slowing the harm is worthwhile.
(DIR) Post #AiHe9BVFenUC4gdJFg by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:54:06Z
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@angst_ridden Voting strategically does not make you a bad leftist, or a "shit lib" ... it does not mean you have given permission to the state to do anything. Equally important don't think that voting is going to solve everything. (or even solve much) Don't see yourself as just a "voter" or a "consumer" there are other ways to shape the world around you.
(DIR) Post #AiHeMas0ecSKVufib2 by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:57:04Z
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@futurebird I mean two things:1) I've protested in many different ways since I was a teen (maybe 45 years). *All* effective or ineffective protests end with police beating people up in the US. There is no magically effective form that does not.2) After the election, you can't act as if you don't accept it in any meaningful way, because, in the end, cops will beat you up. I don't accept democratic legitimacy for genocide and neither should anyone else.@jonquass @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHeQvlau49wTujtRY by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:57:27Z
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@angst_ridden I know many people who are real organizers and they wish that we didn't have to talk about voting so much or worry about it. What I've heard most often is:"Just pick the one that will make our work easier for us PLEASE ... but, if that's too psychically harmful for you, FINE. In that case don't spread this vague notion of shame around when when there is real work to do."And if we have to deal with Trump again we will. The costs will be high but we will do it.
(DIR) Post #AiHehqGKcZRwKjBEqu by jonquass@techhub.social
2024-05-26T12:27:51Z
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@richpuchalskyYeah, this is the kind of thing that is interesting. Voting for a person is voting for everything they've ever done and said somehow?I vote for the best direction we should go in, I don't vote for perfection.@futurebird @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHehrBlB3O3Cq36Mi by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:29:26Z
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@jonquass You're not going to be voting for "everything they've ever done and said." Biden has a policy of genocide. In his next term, he plans to continue that genocide. This is really not a difficult topic to consider.@futurebird @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHehsDvKUiCPq4LNQ by jonquass@techhub.social
2024-05-26T12:37:45Z
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@richpuchalskyOkay, so in the trolley problem, you'd let the trolley kill anyone in the way because you don't want to touch the controls.If it helps, I will be voting for genocide noatter who you vote for, and even if you don't. They will happen, and it's not *your* fault. Its okay@futurebird @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHeht3KFNpQzG7OUq by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:41:55Z
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@jonquass I don't know why you want to boast that you're voting for genocide. A real "are we the baddies?" moment.People love to see elections as trolley problems because it makes the only decision the constrained decision of a moment where you decide whether or not to flip the switch. I plan to continue to resist no matter what happens in the election. After all, either winner will be a likely genocideur.@futurebird @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHehtkZeaQJ9OLvuK by jonquass@techhub.social
2024-05-26T12:42:35Z
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@richpuchalskyI said you're also supporting genocide by not voting. And you made this constraint by focusing on genocide.I'm done with this, take care not voting! @futurebird @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHehujXztCECUscwi by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T12:47:46Z
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@jonquass "I said you're also supporting genocide by not voting." Yes, if everyone is automatically enrolled into the system, and the system can only produce one result (genocide), then everyone, by existing, is responsible for genocide. So sure, if my being alive is taken as support, then I am alive. I don't think that is the same as voting for genocide and telling everyone else that they have to as well.@futurebird @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHehvhSP97PCIuTKK by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T12:59:57Z
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@richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira You are still responsible if you don't vote. We all are.
(DIR) Post #AiHejqP940B7LyG1o0 by NoFlexZone@blacktwitter.io
2024-05-26T13:00:22Z
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@futurebird @angst_ridden if voting is material support, then voting for a genocidaire js material support to a genocide.W t h are you on about
(DIR) Post #AiHexX75aJCDZpL624 by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T13:01:59Z
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@futurebird @angst_ridden I'll stop arguing about this but no, this is not a distinction between "real organizers" and unreal online people, and phrasing support of genocide as "you poor dear I guess this is psychically harmful for you" is not a good thing to do.
(DIR) Post #AiHf4St7gzWUV270xk by jonquass@techhub.social
2024-05-26T13:02:58Z
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@futurebirdTurns out they were a troll, I blocked them finally. Dunno what they're on about.@richpuchalsky@mastodon.social @ehproque @moira
(DIR) Post #AiHf70qQPjFIOQ45h2 by angst_ridden@toot.community
2024-05-26T13:04:01Z
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@futurebird exactly!
(DIR) Post #AiHfG4p6zS7rL5lyfg by ShiitakeToast@beige.party
2024-05-26T13:05:53Z
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@futurebird @angst_ridden one other thing about the ādonāt voteā crew: politicians hear you say ādonāt voteā and stop listening to anything else they say for two main reasons:1. The number of people who think about politics but refuse to vote is very small (compared to people who arenāt interested and donāt vote). Politicians are self-interested and non voters donāt bring them anything, so they donāt listen. 2. Despite being self-interested, most politicians, regardless of party, actually do believe in the system of elected representation. If you say ādonāt voteā they think youāre out for chaos, not improvement, and they write you off as a terrorist. On the other hand, if you tell them youāre a concerned voter, they start to listen.
(DIR) Post #AiHfQ5CyPjbdQdhmwS by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T13:08:59Z
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@NoFlexZone @angst_ridden It's a case where you get a small, constricted, often mediated chance to have some influence. Use it or not. Seems foolish to waste? But I wouldn't want you to suffer guilt or psychic harm... so waste it if you must. We will work around your needs ... as always.
(DIR) Post #AiHi5z45qQGQRkew9g by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T13:38:35Z
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@maggiejk https://sauropods.win/@futurebird/112462140300894154
(DIR) Post #AiHnTSbGhQWYTmBrm4 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T14:39:19Z
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@Virginicus @richpuchalsky They would have to be stubborn anarchists who refuse to dirty their little hands with yucky statist ballots.
(DIR) Post #AiHnkcR7NicBuPcmfo by StephanieMoore@mastodon.online
2024-05-26T14:42:13Z
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@futurebird just wanted to pop in and say how much I enjoy following you and listening to discussions you foster. Youāre honest and on point without being dismissive. Thanks for being just real, honest discourse.
(DIR) Post #AiHnxIdMJnQyFzOesS by IPmonger@hachyderm.io
2024-05-26T14:43:48Z
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@futurebird @angst_ridden Iām not necessarily convinced that being in America and benefiting from the economic situation here isnāt sufficient to create complicity in the negative actions taken by the government. In any case, if you have an opportunity to potentially improve the situation, it seems likely that taking advantage of said opportunity is the best course of action.
(DIR) Post #AiHoACq7Akz23DW8pM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T14:47:04Z
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@IPmonger @angst_ridden If just not voting could clean our souls wouldn't it be tempting? Maybe that's why so many subscribe to that fiction. :/We are in the heart of a warlike empire, the place where are the weapons are made, the center of the beast.
(DIR) Post #AiHoDOTcMWdV0mVyFc by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T14:47:10Z
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@futurebird @Virginicus We would overthrow the government and kick the fascists out, after which there would be no government. We can't do that for the US as a whole, but if you're going to analogize that to strange edge cases, then we can.
(DIR) Post #AiHoaaDirkM85u8a7U by scrottie@anarchism.space
2024-05-26T14:49:37Z
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@futurebird imo that's a reminder that authoritarianism relentlessly co-opts anything it can. I think there's parallel there to the think-tank created "neoliberal" project. "Freedom" was co-opted to be freedom for companies from regulation instead of freedom from corporate influence and externalized costs. This was an incredibly calculated and incredibly successful ploy whose planning is also incredibly well documented. The present day co-opting of the language of social justice imo is the same.
(DIR) Post #AiHotjBdkkz7PBIBAe by rvinson@liberdon.com
2024-05-26T14:55:24Z
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@futurebird @IPmonger @angst_ridden
(DIR) Post #AiHpchp3fj62CnB1gO by carrideen@c18.masto.host
2024-05-26T15:03:32Z
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@futurebird @IPmonger @angst_ridden Yeah, there is a genuine obsession among many leftists with saying at least their hands are clean, because they simply never share any kind of community with anyone who benefits from oppression. But if you live in the US, you do benefit from oppression, just like British people in the 18th century benefited from slavery even if they never met an enslaved person. Better to have a voice and work for justice than to congratulate oneself for having clean hands.
(DIR) Post #AiHqJqjuOXPoJSLBXU by martin_piper@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T15:10:48Z
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@futurebird if it's any consolation it looks like trump got booed out of there. Also it looks like rfk is helping to split the trump vote. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/26/politics/rfk-jr-nominated-libertarian-party/index.html
(DIR) Post #AiHqdAegZZ4HaB6viq by carrideen@c18.masto.host
2024-05-26T15:08:43Z
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@futurebird @IPmonger @angst_ridden I've been accused by clean-handsers of suggesting that shared complicity is saying none of us are really guilty when I mean the opposite. Our complicity is a shared obligation to work for liberation all the time, and not to get high and mighty about accusing allies of hypocrisy. Identify the enemies of justice and fight them together, and also work on yourself too, finding ways to act more justly.
(DIR) Post #AiHqdBp0EgunCSwgRU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T15:14:47Z
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@carrideen @IPmonger @angst_ridden I mean also, I'm not going to point and yell at someone who has a real connection to these events & "just can't vote for him" but the people I know who have said that have also said "don't know if I'd feel the same if I weren't in NYC, where it's unlikely to matter" & they have even "I feel like I'm being selfish."(!)Someone who has LOST people. How does this person have more willingness to think about the consequences than those with no direct connections?
(DIR) Post #AiHqyQkxu5DvbKBYUi by carrideen@c18.masto.host
2024-05-26T15:18:46Z
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@futurebird @IPmonger @angst_ridden I think you are absolutely right that voting feels like allegiance to them. That's the Trump model--vote to tell him you love and support and would give your first-born to him. We should think of voting more like, "Who is more likely to respond to pressure from people like me?"
(DIR) Post #AiHt6XheA0WBN0d41A by zombiewarrior@social.vivaldi.net
2024-05-26T15:42:35Z
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@futurebird @angst_ridden not voting for biden, also voting for genocidehttps://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.htmlif you don't want to support genocide i guess move out of this christofacist racist darwinian experiment
(DIR) Post #AiHvia4M0jq5caW396 by jason@logoff.website
2024-05-26T16:11:54Z
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@futurebird knell
(DIR) Post #AiHw0w8Gif9NGH6FF2 by JeffreySmith@mastdn.social
2024-05-26T16:15:14Z
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@futurebird @jonquass This is well and simply put, and lacks the patronizing flavor of so many arguments deriding people in anguish over the Pres. Biden's ongoing support for a genocide. It is morally understandable to want to honor the Palestinian victims of this onslaught by not voting. However, if not voting elevates someone to the presidency, who would support genocides against not just Palestinians, but against Ukrainians, Uyghurs & Tibetans, that doesn't seem to honor Palestinians.
(DIR) Post #AiI0CZsbgBlvXPa2nA by darcher@hachyderm.io
2024-05-26T17:02:04Z
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@futurebird @richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira > We do not have a law that says that "if too few people vote the state is no longer valid"Which is quite odd, when you stop and really think about it.Seriously. Both as a matter of common sense, and when expressed formally in all the common variants on "rules of order," you want a quorum threshold. Quora are a bedrock feature of virtually every collective decision-making system, but mysteriously absent from the state. Why is that?
(DIR) Post #AiI1m5lDEuHiVIcVf6 by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T17:19:46Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque for reals. Iāve never got to vote for someone I actually like for President and most certainly never will. I, too, vote to choose my opponent, and can acknowledge less bad is better than more bad.Speaking more personally, hoping you get the opponent who isnāt actively trying to kill you has been the point of queer voting most of my life. Being able to take an aesthetic position (yes, Iāve peeked further down this thread) means youāre sure youāll survive no matter who is in power, and we donāt and have never had that - regardless of what some people might pretend.
(DIR) Post #AiI6mpajLBQ6PttB7A by johnmark@freeradical.zone
2024-05-26T13:25:57Z
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@richpuchalsky @futurebird @angst_ridden Real people are going to suffer under Trump, and you're enabling that. What does that make you? Also I'm not voting for Biden, I'm voting for a coalition of voters represented by Biden.
(DIR) Post #AiI6mqgnG7rdozjXCi by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T13:28:45Z
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@johnmark "Real people are going to suffer under Trump"I guess that Palestinians are not real.If you're voting for a coalition of voters that are OK with genocide, then I can only repeat that there is no democratic legitimacy for genocide. @futurebird @angst_ridden
(DIR) Post #AiI6mrantsfQchwGVU by johnmark@freeradical.zone
2024-05-26T14:09:29Z
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@richpuchalsky @futurebird @angst_ridden Because one of the coalitions has proved receptive to the Palestinian cause. Policy takes years to unwind, and we've been staunch Israel allies for decades now. No one is going to unwind that in the time span that you want. We don't have solid allies in the region, and abandoning Israel would mean we're left with zero. And may I remind you that it was the previous president who moved the embassy to Jerusalem, stoking more unrest.
(DIR) Post #AiI6mse1zMqJt0SMAy by johnmark@freeradical.zone
2024-05-26T14:10:08Z
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@richpuchalsky @futurebird @angst_ridden So we're in the unenviable position of trying to convince Israel to be less bad.If you don't see a clear difference in those positions then I don't know what to tell you.
(DIR) Post #AiI6mtPBA4YaFEW0fI by salad_bar_breath@todon.nl
2024-05-26T14:25:13Z
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@johnmark Maybe you could be in the position of telling your man to stop genociding and actually pretend like he wants to win this election against Trump, or do anything that actually fucking helps people such that progressives are motivated to vote for him. Trump is going to win because of Biden and his block of petty bourgeois middle class America that makes a decreasing portion of the American population feels entitled to constant catering. Not because of the people you choose to shame for not voting instead of shaming your party into being something worth voting for.If Project 2025 gets underway and I lose my hormone access or get thrown in the camps, I promise it will be your fault, not anyone abstaining from voting. @richpuchalsky @futurebird @angst_ridden
(DIR) Post #AiI6muH3vjeswLj2eW by johnmark@freeradical.zone
2024-05-26T18:06:02Z
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@salad_bar_breath @richpuchalsky @futurebird @angst_ridden I and the rest of the Democratic coalition want to protect the right of trans people. Full stop.I'm sorry, but we will not be able to put together a better coalition in time for this election. No matter what happens, I will always fight for your right to health care and to thrive. Ane I will shame people - those who brought us Bush (Nader supporters) and Trump (Bernie supporters) and Biden (Bernie supporters, again)
(DIR) Post #AiI6mvBmWr1pmGGL3o by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T18:15:49Z
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@johnmark @salad_bar_breath @richpuchalsky @angst_ridden I was a Bernie supporter. Like the vast majority I voted for Clinton. How is dredging this up helping? You say "coalition" but that last paragraph isn't about that at all. Trump was elected by the people who voted for him. We could argue about if Clinton being dismissive and overconfident hurt more that some people being stubborn, but that was not the main issue. You should stops saying this kind of thing. It's not helping either.
(DIR) Post #AiI6zEJHGPNyYSdbAu by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T18:11:33Z
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@johnmark JFC, I was trying to ignore this but it has now gone from "anarchists suck" (understandable, given liberal beliefs) to "Bernie supporters suck". These are the people asking others to join their coalition.@salad_bar_breath @futurebird @angst_ridden
(DIR) Post #AiI6zFh47S0YqWm6tM by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T18:18:07Z
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@richpuchalsky @johnmark @salad_bar_breath @angst_ridden I don't find the "anarchists suck" stuff "understandable"
(DIR) Post #AiI7E1m29gFm1C90oC by cerebrate@schelling.pt
2024-05-26T18:20:06Z
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@futurebird @richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira Insofar as thereās a theory here, itās not legalism, itās legitimacy. For a representative democracy, legitimacy is strongly tied to the notion that the representatives actually are.Basically, drive down the voting percentage enough and it will *look* like a ridiculous fascist farce as well as *being* a ridiculous fascist farce.No more legitimacy.
(DIR) Post #AiI803TD9QflBCF1v6 by eva_chaos@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T18:29:30Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira Not all adults have a well-developed sense of self. Some people need to be in a "club" long past adolescence.
(DIR) Post #AiIB6QrjNc6JL6RWWO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:04:17Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @moira @glyph @richpuchalsky Some people who claim to be anarchists do that. I find any blanket statement about anarchists is probably wrong.
(DIR) Post #AiIBC5OS7sEsTwRb7I by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:05:05Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @moira @glyph @richpuchalsky Five Baptists? Six opinions. Five Anarchists? Twenty five opinions. Five Anarchist Baptists? Just go home.
(DIR) Post #AiIBJRWMFrVf8VeLkO by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T19:06:18Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @futurebird @glyph @richpuchalsky I'm saying that I have _observed_ that anarchist (and in some cases other types of leftist) disparagement of voting - often vocal - has this effect.This is not saying it is the _intended_ effect, I am saying it is the actual effect as I see it.I've had to do repair work on people so affected, so have experience in this.This is not scientific study, however; it is simply, as I have repeatedly stated, my own observation.
(DIR) Post #AiIBYboyF0vhQRaUGO by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:09:17Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @moira @richpuchalsky @glyph I think this was just about the kind of people in our own circle, left leaning people with varied amounts of time to engage. I didn't take it as an explication for that larger problem with many more causes. But it has an impact on people who generally agree with left leaning goals. A vague sense that participating is pointless, and when someone outspoken and smart seeming seems to agree it's easier to take that path.
(DIR) Post #AiIBuHmdQBdteOpbDU by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:13:20Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @glyph @jonquass @richpuchalsky @ehproque @moira Not seeing how that is the case. Both points are addressed in their own way clearly in the posts by solarbird. Are you just arguing because you see this as an argument. It is starting to feel that way.
(DIR) Post #AiICXPBzoBozvILavA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:20:19Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @richpuchalsky @glyph @moira When I tell people voting is among the weakest bits of power they can exercise I worry it sound daunting. Because voting isn't easy in many places, and processing the political world is draining. Which I could dismiss as whining, but then I consider how much most people have on their plate. So I also like to point out that visiting your sick neighbor is also an important act. Teaching young people to be compassionate . . .
(DIR) Post #AiIClJZXV8q6XvzZIG by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:22:51Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @richpuchalsky @glyph @moira But also voting, going to school board and and "neighborhood council" meetings (if only to try to break them up, or convert them to better purposes)There are many ways to engage. Anything that builds human networks outside of the "sanctioned" channels can be good. Even something like a board game night can become a point for organizing. I don't think it helps to make people feel any more helpless.
(DIR) Post #AiIDDKVhbgrhZ2YWy8 by sun@shitposter.world
2024-05-26T19:28:04.550986Z
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@futurebird to influence the candidates you can only work in the two parties. So if you want better candidates you have to give one party or the other a stamp of approval by giving them your full participation, which cements their power. by the time the actual vote comes you get a few candidates who have already been through the party wringer and aren't that much different. Basically, voting without participating in a party regularly is borderline meaningless.
(DIR) Post #AiIDmJXpBoLQhjELuS by lonerfanatic@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T19:34:04Z
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@futurebird @HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @moira @glyph @richpuchalsky I think that lecturing a group of people, most of whom have spent their lives making devil's deals with politicians in exchange for far less than the bare minimum, is arrogant to a degree I can't describe. If you can compartmentalize voting in favor of genocide from actual support, good for you. Just don't tell me it's the moral choice. Voting is no longer useful, I vote for guillotines.
(DIR) Post #AiIEcvw3hLx8pVelYu by johnmark@freeradical.zone
2024-05-26T19:43:46Z
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@futurebird @salad_bar_breath @richpuchalsky @angst_ridden Fair. I'm not exactly doing my part to expand the big tent.
(DIR) Post #AiIErXUkqiRRNBqkmu by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T19:46:25Z
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@futurebird @HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @richpuchalsky @glyph State and local politics is 100% where you can do your best work.I can go poke at city council pretty easily.A group of about 20 of us who actually would show up and wear T-shirts got us vastly improved transit buildout approved a few years ago.It's the kind of thing that's going to take a lot of cars off of roads and was another step towards getting us off oil which will eventuallyguess whatget us out of the middle east, because the only real reason we're there is oil.State and local is where you have the most leverage and hey guess what that includes voting since, after all...... we got the transit build out by _popular initiative_, which is to sayvoting
(DIR) Post #AiIFBgIXpToCT0k8f2 by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T19:50:04Z
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@moira @HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @richpuchalsky @glyph Getting 20 people in teeshirts is a lot of work. But it's also something that can be done and that CAN have a huge impact if applied at the right level. And those victories nourish the soul.
(DIR) Post #AiIFnpjFDNPKigQM7c by Jackiemauro@fosstodon.org
2024-05-26T19:56:55Z
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@futurebird @moira @HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @richpuchalsky @glyph Yea not voting is very easy. Which is clue number 1 it probably isnāt going to achieve any kind of goals. Sustained, in person organizing is hard. And effective. Giving politicians the silent treatment until they come around to your position or the system collapses isā¦not my preferred approach.
(DIR) Post #AiIGZwHOA8ZWw7KjLc by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-26T20:05:40Z
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@violetmadder @moira @darcher @richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque Well what I'm doing is offering free math tutoring and trying to get the building's recycling policy changed. How about everyone else?
(DIR) Post #AiIGsFcYzQuI8SyAQi by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T20:08:52Z
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@futurebird @HeavenlyPossum @jonquass @ehproque @richpuchalsky @glyph It is!But as you note - it's _doable_. It's something a lot more people think they have a shot at doing.You won't always win but you will know you've actually been in the fight.
(DIR) Post #AiIHL5quO8mQEjQs1g by moira@mastodon.murkworks.net
2024-05-26T20:13:58Z
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@futurebird @violetmadder @darcher @richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque People who follow me are probably a little sick of seeing all my bike map shit.What's the bike map shit about?Promoting biking as a viable option, showing people they can actually get places. Showing where those places are and how to get there.Particularly the MEGAMAP - a map the size of most people's commutes.Who have I been shopping these maps to?Bike stores, which have a vested interest in selling bikes and biking. They love them. They think they're fantastic and that I should sell them, but I don't, because that would restrict their availability, which would make them less effective at what?Promoting biking, which means what?(1/2)
(DIR) Post #AiIJMzTlFsS8xQdbgu by richpuchalsky@mastodon.social
2024-05-26T20:36:55Z
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@futurebird I've kind of checked out of this thread out of a sense that I've said everything I have to say, but there's a foundational difference in "make people feel any more helpless". As an anarchist I believe that electoral involvement is worthless -- anarchists do not believe that the state should exist. I instead suggest other things people can do. But if "electoralism is worthless" == "making people feel helpless" then yes, people should expect anarchists to do that.
(DIR) Post #AiIOpggwgVEmrHJ98K by ianhecht@saskodon.ca
2024-05-26T21:37:54Z
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@futurebird @ehproque @moira This seems like such a weird American thing. Those of us in social democracies see the way power, used for the good of the people, can work well if properly directed. The alternative seems to be corporatism...
(DIR) Post #AiIxIMCZLEfi9JwRmq by linebyline@bytetower.social
2024-05-26T14:56:22Z
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@angst_ridden @futurebird Case in point: Trump. Until he won the nomination, if not the presidency, Repiblicans *loathed* him. Kasich called him a threat to democracyā¦and then immediately promised to vote for him anyway, to beat the Democrats, for the sake of The Party.I'll give the abstainers this, though: It's a genuine problem that our harm reduction strategy has created a party that is guaranteed our votes as long as they're plausibly less fascist than nazis.
(DIR) Post #AiIxIMwIbDFeR9Ky48 by linebyline@bytetower.social
2024-05-26T14:59:32Z
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@angst_ridden @futurebird (It's just that not voting at all means the nazis will definitely win. It's true that voring for the lesser evil gives you more evil, not less, just slower. It's just that our only options right now are slower evil or faster evil and that's not that difficult a choice.)
(DIR) Post #AiIxINMB2zx3jPRdOy by grumble209@techhub.social
2024-05-27T03:16:03Z
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@linebyline @angst_ridden @futurebird You can look at things a couple of different ways:a) the GOP is running a fascist for presidentb) 1/3 of the USA supports a fascistIf you frame things as problem (a), then the logical solution is to vote for the Dems and hope next time the GOP leadership goes a different way.If you frame things as problem (b), then voting isn't a solution to anything. Voting Dem in 2020 made the fascists appear at the Capital on Jan6. Voting Dem is 2024 will likely create more fascists who will do even more violent assholery. Ultimately, historically, you have to defeat the fascists with power and/or violence.It's bad news that problem (b) exists. It's even worse news that we have to solve both problem (a) and (b).
(DIR) Post #AiIxIO6cGL6A3RAimm by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-27T04:04:18Z
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@grumble209 @linebyline @angst_ridden b isn't a big surprise or secret or anything. look at how well the civil rights movement went over, it's nothing new.
(DIR) Post #AiJC56Ri6mvcpcA6To by Simplicator@federate.social
2024-05-27T06:49:55Z
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@futurebird Some of it is our stupid 2-party system. If we had a modern parliamentary system, people could vote for the parties they actually want & then the MPs would compromise to form a coalition govāt. Instead here we put it on regular folks to compromise & join 1 of the 2 permanent coalitions. Itās too much for lots of people
(DIR) Post #AiJQRCP02hJd29KAzY by grumble209@techhub.social
2024-05-27T09:30:48Z
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@futurebird @linebyline @angst_ridden I agree. My sadness is that a lot of the pro-Biden voices act like re-electing the man will solve problem (b)., and that, by extension, criticizing Biden is somehow a pro-fascist activity.I'm hoping the rest of 2024 and 2025 will be less violent than, say, 1967.
(DIR) Post #AiJW8wqziDJrK76DYG by voxofgod@jorts.horse
2024-05-27T10:34:23Z
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@futurebird @richpuchalsky @jonquass @ehproque @moira Yeah, that doesn't scan Fully participate In an unfair, sham of institutional process designed to silence your vote and kill you or you are responsible?That's more of a chimera or a juggernaut than the specter of heaven and salvation for if you pray
(DIR) Post #AiJc4tNhHRyB7VqRcm by marshalla99@thx.gg
2024-05-27T11:41:05Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira and that's why political parties love football clubs and organized religion. Brainwash the masses into accepting tribalism as normal.
(DIR) Post #AiJtsdIr1zC0xFsqoq by norgralin@hachyderm.io
2024-05-27T15:00:08Z
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@futurebird yeah. The pre tea party libertarians had that one small silver lining. I was wondering what happened to libertarians in the past 8 years. Did Trump siphon off the pure racists? Iām suspecting that and the more sensible woke up and moved left. Leaving a husk of fanatical believers so gross no one in their right mind wants to be involved with them.
(DIR) Post #AiKU3uNPUOWPRUgryq by jcape@hachyderm.io
2024-05-27T21:37:07Z
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@HeavenlyPossum @richpuchalsky @moira @ehproque @futurebird @glyph @StryderNotavi @jonquass What about the people in swing districts that abstained or voted for a protest candidate? How much are their votes worth?
(DIR) Post #AiKU3vok8FynuYUDDs by futurebird@sauropods.win
2024-05-27T21:46:09Z
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@jcape @richpuchalsky @moira @StryderNotavi @jonquass This guy was creeping around my neighborhood w/ gang leaders who have had people murdered he might pardon or promote if in power... a kind of threat to throw the Bronx back into the kind of chaos we faced in the 70s due to police corruption. One of many material consequences. Don't need to convince me it's a flawed system. It still matters. If you can help: great. If you can't that's fine too. We will figure it out.
(DIR) Post #AiMfYTNtNowyW5c3Fo by MisuseCase@twit.social
2024-05-28T23:04:21Z
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@futurebird @jonquass @ehproque @moira I think Americans may have had too much of reality shows where you vote for your favorite.Thereās a lot of political science research that says people tend more to vote *against* things and candidates anyway, rather than *for* them. Or at least they frame it to themselves that way.