Post AhvcIXGBeyn8lznd68 by foone@digipres.club
(DIR) More posts by foone@digipres.club
(DIR) Post #AhvboWFopriuxwJYeW by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:42:42Z
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Properly photographing a 3.5" floppy disk for archival is annoyingly complicated. The label has THREE sides!I've already built an automated system to take a picture of the front of a disk, but really I need to take THREE photos if I want to get the whole thing.That means either three cameras or I need to rotate the disk 90° and then 180°, which is going to really stress the limits of my mechanical engineering skills.
(DIR) Post #Ahvc3uMBVLfK3wd71U by Whovian9369@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:44:23Z
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@foone Small turntable that just spins it while you do a long exposure?
(DIR) Post #AhvcIXGBeyn8lznd68 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:44:24Z
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So the front is easy. The disk slides down a slide, it's stopped by a servo, I take a picture with a camera aimed down at it.The back... Either I flip the disk, or I have a camera under the disk which takes a picture aimed up.And the edge is the worst. I can't have a camera aimed at it unless I either move the camera out of the way of the disk, or I make the disk move in an L shape
(DIR) Post #AhvcIaCkiCpJuDDQf2 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:45:28Z
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How about this: I stick with the "stop disk and aim down" method, but I do it on a transparent surface, and I add some mirrors.Then the disk can be photographed from three sides at once.
(DIR) Post #AhvcIbhd8t7WYGfbQe by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:46:21Z
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The only downside then is that the focus can't be exactly right, since the back/edge will be further away. I'd need to either adjust the focus while taking pictures or have some of the sides slightly out of focus
(DIR) Post #AhvcIcwCYCN0NkUkmO by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:47:19Z
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And the question of where to place the mirrors gets tricky. I'm not 100% I can even place them appropriately without getting really complicated with multiple mirrors, or having the mirrors be in the path of the disk
(DIR) Post #Ahvcy1m17IURHWTMnI by NireBryce@hachyderm.io
2024-05-15T21:46:41Z
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@foone there might be an easy way to do this with some mirrors
(DIR) Post #Ahvday7mcKG1G5Dprs by alexhammy@hachyderm.io
2024-05-15T21:48:08Z
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@foone if you can guarantee ordering will stay the same, you can run them through and flip them all as a stack and run them through again.
(DIR) Post #AhvdujifssdmNEu5wW by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:48:43Z
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Mirrors could also cause a slowdown: if I can't mount them well enough that the motion of the disk and drive mechanism doesn't shake them, I've got to add an additional delay while I wait on the mirrors to stop vibrating so I can get a clean picture
(DIR) Post #AhvdumCWerhu4OsxkW by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:51:38Z
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If I can rotate the disk sideways I might be able to solve the edge problem. Then I could just have a second camera that aims at the edge.I could rotate it sideways with some static obstacles, but I may need a servo mechanism or something to do a 180 flip to get the back, unless I do the transparent glass thing.The disk comes out, it whacks into a bumper and rotates 90° sideways, and three separate cameras photograph it at once, then something ejects it?
(DIR) Post #AhvdunsOQgn7GXTue8 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:52:34Z
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The problem is that all possible answers for this problem (other than "don't worry about the edge and back") are either going to be tricky to design and fiddly to operate, and expensive in terms of cameras.And some solutions are both.
(DIR) Post #AhvdupP2kmVE05lVB2 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:55:42Z
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The best designed option would probably be a sort of carrier that rotates. It'd have to grab the disk by the edges, but if it could move the disk from the original orientation, to 90° for the edge pic, then 180° for the back pic, it could then rotate to like 270° to drop the disk.That might be the most reasonable option.It would require variable focus on the camera, since the surface it's photographing is closer for the edge picture.
(DIR) Post #Ahvdur10l6T308XKzo by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:57:51Z
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Or just a second camera mounted roughly parallel that is on fixed focus for the edge picture. That might be easier/cheaper to do, actually.(since multiple fixed focus cameras for raspis can be cheaper than one camera with a motorized focus)
(DIR) Post #Ahve8IPGELopiZHxwW by WooShell@chaosfurs.social
2024-05-15T21:50:19Z
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@foone May I suggest a PCB holder that is commonly used for soldering? That should work with the size of a floppy disk.. and I'm sure you could attach a servo to the axis to spin it automatically.
(DIR) Post #Ahvek0KTtBC6en2A5Y by NireBryce@hachyderm.io
2024-05-15T21:54:57Z
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@foone it would take work to make a tool that could un-distort the pictures, but you could have like, a toaster-like holder with cutouts for the label, put disk in door-downmirrors on the sides, flat on the tableand then in some fixed setup, take two pictures, one at each known focal distance (mirrors, labels), and then have the computer stitch them together into one long label with your custom tool (one may exist without much tweaking i dont know the space)
(DIR) Post #Ahvek3CRDXXjYiIHT6 by NireBryce@hachyderm.io
2024-05-15T21:56:15Z
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@foone alternatively, I wonder if there's any fresnels or mirrors themselves that will let you get it the same focal distance as the fold of the label
(DIR) Post #Ahvev3nDLuC2aGkHTc by wonka@chaos.social
2024-05-15T21:55:29Z
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@foone Can't you arrange the stack of disks and the pathway they take so that the edge is on the side of the pathway?
(DIR) Post #AhvfIAXqPkMWBZZjyC by lolcat@digipres.club
2024-05-15T21:57:20Z
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@foone Turntable? With the floppy sitting in the middle, on its side edge? With the camera fixed in position, the top edge will be a little closer to the lens, but can be rescaled?
(DIR) Post #AhvfgEtjsgOcdXIIEq by clairely_undaunted@mastodon.triggerphra.se
2024-05-15T22:01:56Z
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@foone take a picture of the whole stack for the edge
(DIR) Post #AhvfuFCtWrT9eIvqbY by robryk@qoto.org
2024-05-15T22:05:54Z
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@foone With some more mirrors you could get all 3 distances to be closer to equal (getting them exactly equal is not that helpful given that even one side is not at a constant distance from the focal point, unless you arrange for some lens arrangement that has an effective focal point very far away).
(DIR) Post #Ahvg7Zo0FtwnIae97g by robryk@qoto.org
2024-05-15T22:07:22Z
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@foone If you let the disk fall/slide into a slot shutter-side-first (and stop it there for a while, presumably with another servo) you could probably use the same camera for front and side.
(DIR) Post #AhvgjOktmtp222EHLs by Thorsted@digipres.club
2024-05-15T22:14:37Z
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@foone I wonder if a 180 degree wide angle camera could get a decent pic that could be processed and separated into 3 images. Super useful if you get this figured out!
(DIR) Post #Ahvh0f2yTA3XTwup4y by fbartho@mastodon.social
2024-05-15T22:18:12Z
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@foone 3 cameras, and a shelf made of glass.
(DIR) Post #Ahvh7wjn5vHWNLPsvo by ekuber@hachyderm.io
2024-05-15T22:20:04Z
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@foone wouldn't focus and vibration be mitigated by fast shower speed and high f stop? Then what you need is either high ISO or a lot of light. Alternatively you could see if you can automate your set up to use focus stacking for the different planes.
(DIR) Post #Ahvh80GrxOWXKnuqPI by ekuber@hachyderm.io
2024-05-15T22:22:33Z
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@foone there are some cheap used DSLRs with autofocus that might be easy to drive for this purpose, cheaper than a new cheap camera.
(DIR) Post #AhvhFiqWct43boH4LY by PJ_Evans@mastodon.social
2024-05-15T22:24:29Z
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@foone I only ever used the front side of the label. Edge is too small to use..
(DIR) Post #AhvhVmNvElzTDWYI2i by unnick@wetdry.world
2024-05-15T22:36:46Z
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@foone is this an elaborate joke that everyones in on
(DIR) Post #AhvhmKPqTj9zObLJU8 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T22:42:27Z
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@unnick no, I'm just rambling to myself about ideas for how to better do floppy disk archival
(DIR) Post #Ahvij1YsDpc00OYPHE by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T22:58:51Z
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For reference, this is how the floppy copier works now. The disks come out the hopper and get injected into the drive, then ejected down this slide.
(DIR) Post #Ahvj5IkJ0mK3flWXKK by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T22:59:35Z
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The servo arm stops them right here, and the (not currently attached) camera takes a picture of them. Then the servo rotates to drop them in a box.
(DIR) Post #Ahvj5LY0axGiMUnG4m by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:01:58Z
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My idea is to replace this slide & stop-servo system with a rotating cylinder carriage. It'd have grooves down each side where the floppy can slide, and it's stopped from sliding all the way down by the enclosing 3D structure. Then it can rotate to different positions for different photos, then finally to a position that lets the floppy fall out the bottom
(DIR) Post #AhvjIOaoaHCtZTKQGe by JLab8@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-05-15T23:00:23Z
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@foone just peel off the label and scan it. 👍
(DIR) Post #AhvjWdVLwGV7sEZ1qS by mmu_man@m.g3l.org
2024-05-15T23:02:51Z
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@foone flopp'in, flopp'out!
(DIR) Post #Ahvjn6zS52EnxFUz0i by artandtechnic@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:03:28Z
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@foone Looks like it might be possible to put two - and possibly three - small cameras on the chute.
(DIR) Post #AhvkuOrs6qmZNmzad6 by ketmorco@fosstodon.org
2024-05-15T23:25:34Z
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@foone i bet they say "whee!" when they go down
(DIR) Post #Ahvl20WwToUkDYpXXM by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:25:39Z
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Quick first pass/mockup. The floppies slide into this, and then it's embedded into a larger structure that can use a motor to rotate it. One camera, three positions of the carriage, and then it rotates to drop the floppy out.
(DIR) Post #AhvlGrDzMPZlhU2uMS by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:25:57Z
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@ketmorco of course!
(DIR) Post #AhvlOfiC35JyJJtrdY by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:30:08Z
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time to print it and see how it'd work.
(DIR) Post #AhvlmX3xrAX2R8SdPM by artandtechnic@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:29:58Z
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@foone Nice!
(DIR) Post #AhvlviXOYzACdBbfmK by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:30:42Z
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@JLab8 how am I going to make a robot that peels off the labels?
(DIR) Post #AhvmBb0qJDOVvSx5I8 by vfig@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-05-15T23:31:04Z
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@foone for single camera use, you could ~double that radius with the floppy sitting between one edge and the center, so that when rotated both sides and the edge of the label are the same distance from the camera.
(DIR) Post #AhvmKZFyCtrP5OJ13w by The4thCircle@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-05-15T23:36:32Z
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@foone How many floppies are you photographing that you need to automate the process?
(DIR) Post #AhvmbfmZCJlgFRi12G by dannotdaniel@mastodon.social
2024-05-15T23:40:34Z
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@foone if the discs are at any time stacked you could take a picture of all the labels on the edges at once and then use software to carve it up? you just have to sync that image with the front and back images
(DIR) Post #AhvmiMHk5OhHo1Tl6e by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-15T23:43:16Z
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@The4thCircle 50 at a time, thousands over time.
(DIR) Post #AhvoCFHMnaSEic7Oxk by SvenGeier@mathstodon.xyz
2024-05-16T00:00:20Z
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@foone @The4thCircle I'm almost certain for the money you're spending on multiple cameras and 3d printed gadgets you could just hire a couple poor slobs on fiverr and make them take the pictures by hand...
(DIR) Post #AhvoY6OIWe7FWUmZO4 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-16T00:06:43Z
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@SvenGeier @The4thCircle where's the fun in that?
(DIR) Post #Ahvr9vPbzbbGNxYmrg by jpm@aus.social
2024-05-16T00:35:56Z
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@foone 2 mirrors, make your own periscope that unwraps the edge and back so it can be photographed from the front (tricky to design)
(DIR) Post #AhvurnvdTdVNmQ9bSC by evana@hachyderm.io
2024-05-16T01:17:42Z
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@foone what if you put the disk on its side and used a single 45° mirror for each of front / back / side? You could have a trapdoor at the bottom to drop the floppy out once it's photographed.
(DIR) Post #AhvzlntXBoyZhy83w8 by august@mastodon.social
2024-05-16T02:12:33Z
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@foone surely you can use more mirrors and/or fiber optics to make the focus of all three sides the same.
(DIR) Post #Ahw7fd4DKjFO1RguMC by cabbey@phpc.social
2024-05-16T03:30:45Z
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@foone should be easy: two mirrors, one for the front, one for the back, the edge is directly exposed to the camera. Both sides are then the same distance away. With enough light and a good lens you should be able to get enough depth of field to cover the length to both sides and the edge. Worst case the edge is slightly out of focus. It’s probably the least relevant anyway.
(DIR) Post #AhwAgAZz2DNdp0V504 by mathiasrudolph@mastodon.social
2024-05-16T04:14:35Z
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@foone could you maybe slide the disk down already 90° rotated to the left or right? Then you could have one of the sides transparent or have slot there to take a photo of the top of the disk?
(DIR) Post #AhwCbuW70pUikrmofw by bifo@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-05-16T04:36:17Z
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@foone What's the failure rate on Shinji floppies?
(DIR) Post #AhwFhVLtmqcQJ9MtTU by happydisciple@mendeddrum.org
2024-05-16T05:10:22Z
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@foone Can you get a bright enough scene so you can stop down the camera to get a big enough depth-of-field?
(DIR) Post #AhwMvAMFL7QqvbzZsO by The4thCircle@mastodon.gamedev.place
2024-05-16T06:32:04Z
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@foone Okay yeah that's a lot.
(DIR) Post #AhwN21FBchJQgmxRNQ by fabian@mastodon.schle.nz
2024-05-16T06:33:04Z
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@foone You don't have to have the pivot point for rotating the disk in the center of it. If you put the pivot point right next to the edge you also want to photograph, both sides and the edge will be at the same distance to the camera.
(DIR) Post #AhwSqOSs3x4uxOCMC0 by altareos@mstdn.social
2024-05-16T07:38:24Z
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@foone clearly the solution is to only have 5¼" and 8" floppies so that they only have 2 sides max. hope this helps.
(DIR) Post #AhwrjQBfl1ZZ7tvTQu by ppxl@social.tchncs.de
2024-05-16T12:17:05Z
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@foone maybe collect a couple and scan all of them at once on a flatbed scanner then sort the small side out later to each disk picture set?
(DIR) Post #AhxXdAqG5v4Ts3c5QW by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-16T20:06:47Z
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@altareos that's on the todo! but those are harder. I already have a floppy-handling machine for 3.5" disks, 5¼" and 8" is gonna be way harder
(DIR) Post #AhzdKzzuf91t4BlX28 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:18:27Z
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My proof of concept print is done.
(DIR) Post #AhzdYMpH6A65dGAF2u by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:19:46Z
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So it gets photographed at this angle, rotates to this, then to this, and then to opening-down to drop the flop.Rinse, lather, repeat.
(DIR) Post #AhzdhtpjkMd2bpvSJk by artandtechnic@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:21:10Z
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@foone Looking good!
(DIR) Post #AhzdqCbLqs7r8M9jtY by Thorsted@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:21:14Z
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@foone Does it cover up the holes, making it hard to know type?
(DIR) Post #AhzdyhKZU6pykvMHPE by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:25:40Z
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@Thorsted Yeah, but by this point I've already imaged the disk, so I know what format it is
(DIR) Post #AhzeOs6A4cfXgE6Bm4 by jtlg@mastodon.lawprofs.org
2024-05-17T20:32:02Z
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@foone mad genius!
(DIR) Post #AhzehfawmkW8P4Sj0C by powl@chaos.social
2024-05-17T20:35:15Z
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@foone cool stuff, but needs to refocus on a very small part of the photo for the slim side, that could be a problem
(DIR) Post #AhzgS28vNtPjbs1iee by fernsehmuell@chaos.social
2024-05-17T20:44:20Z
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@foone couldn’t you just use 3 cameras and put in on a sheet of glass?
(DIR) Post #AhzkigQdlovp0IVYGm by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:55:11Z
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@kerio A big lens? I talk about setting up a mirror system earlier in the thread. I'm not sure what you mean by a big lens, though. I need to photograph three sides of the object at once.And I'm not gonna do this destructively, especially because I have thousands of disks like this. I don't want to destroy them all!
(DIR) Post #Ahzl46uKW9krCwc0v2 by mctwist@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2024-05-17T20:55:48Z
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@foone I have been looking for something like this for 20 years. Would you happen to release the prints as well as full instructions on how to replicate it? Got me loads of disks that I'd like to copy, but stopped because manual work...
(DIR) Post #AhzlVcV9A1Hn0rwzWC by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T20:57:51Z
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@mctwist I intend to release my designs once this is more finished, yeah.The big problem is that it depends on an existing floppy copier which you need to retrofit: so it's not a from-scratch solution. I don't know if I'm going to get to a design I can build from scratch, but it'd be nice
(DIR) Post #Ahzq0uZSQbb9qf8wIi by ftg@mastodon.radio
2024-05-17T21:27:01Z
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@foone Nice jig.First thought it was styrofoam and meant to hold one (1) floppy disk inside a sealed can for long term storage.
(DIR) Post #AhzqZDHFNvrFi7yvia by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T21:34:35Z
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Next step: Widen up the slide area a bit so it's smoother (ideally I'd have metal or something here, but maybe I can sand down the 3D printed surface), add holes for rods to hold it at the right width, a mount for a bearing on one side, and a servo motor on the other side.
(DIR) Post #AhzqZH6l8rqTal6bvU by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T21:34:49Z
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but the purpose of this print was just to hold it in my hands and confirm I wasn't completely off base with this idea
(DIR) Post #AhzqZJ3HukFzcZUrnE by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T21:35:29Z
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The servo motor might not be the best way to go, it might be better to use a geared system with a stepper motor, but that's more complicated. So I'm probably going to build it with a servo motor and only look at the stepper motor option if that doesn't work out
(DIR) Post #Ahzt562Y1lsERMRA92 by f4grx@chaos.social
2024-05-17T22:17:48Z
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@foone Why not smaller rails, moved by a servo? To avoid the dual camera you can put the camera on a sliding carriage moved by another servo (via a lever) to adjust the focus when imaging the side. two positions 1.75 inch apart are enough.
(DIR) Post #Ahzt58b0WccuMoZi8O by f4grx@chaos.social
2024-05-17T22:23:37Z
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@foone took the time to draw a hard to understand crap diagram. I'm sorry if thats useless.
(DIR) Post #AhztzEdlEtObKWc1IG by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-17T23:17:32Z
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@f4grx I think that's mostly what I'm doing, I think? I just designed it as circles to make it easier to support and test. Aside from the moving the camera to avoid focus. I might end up doing that if it's simpler than adjusting focus.
(DIR) Post #AhzuPbBc2JMsmh17ui by RealGene@hachyderm.io
2024-05-17T23:24:07Z
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@foone PTFE film for extra slippiness.
(DIR) Post #Ai0KQWRtjUEtBojfPs by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-18T04:23:02Z
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@ratfactor very nice work on the model. Yeah, I've considered this! I'll see how well the servo can move the whole thing when it's not balanced evenly
(DIR) Post #Ai0MZnzc4fwE7D3ley by marcel@waldvogel.family
2024-05-18T04:46:51Z
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@foone I don't know the actual copier mechanic: How about an old-fashioned linear CCD sensor mounted above/below the drive entry and scanning the disk when it enters/leaves the drive?That leaves more options for scanning the top, including scanning them in the hopper in bulk (requires on opening) or by moving another linear CCD across the drive slot while the disk is being copied.(Your nice rotation device prototype would go unused, however 🤷)
(DIR) Post #Ai0MwXcf6XNQ0LALdw by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-18T04:50:52Z
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@marcel I've thought about that! The issue is illumination + moving it steadily. But it's definitely something to look at
(DIR) Post #Ai0srcD3orsDJfszgW by JessicaTaylor@chaosfem.tw
2024-05-18T10:48:57Z
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@fooneI'd look into UHMW (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene) it's what industrial grade systems would likely use here.You can buy strips and probably secure it like your thinking the metal.
(DIR) Post #Ai1FoHPwxv3EuLIGCO by david@fedi.machaj.info
2024-05-18T15:05:33Z
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@foone Have you considered painting it green, and putting it on a green background, so you can easily remove everything in the image except the disk?
(DIR) Post #Ai1TTIxjQQZEyZzGGO by slim@mastodon.tn
2024-05-18T17:38:22Z
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@foone this does not solve the out of focus edge problem. One solution is to have the cilinder radius be double the floppy height. This way the edge is exactly at the center, so when you rotate, the subject is always at the same distance from the camera
(DIR) Post #Ai3IeTbFVPapyOW0si by shyra@bitbang.social
2024-05-19T14:46:59Z
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@foone a high aperture number will take care of that
(DIR) Post #Ai5cpmC76APiECLNaK by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-20T17:39:56Z
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My first rodded-prototype failed for the very out of character reason of forgetting how big 3.5 inch floppy disks are
(DIR) Post #Ai5dArsr8mCTxFOTAG by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-20T17:40:33Z
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(actually the reason was "Amazon sent the wrong rods and I'm still waiting on the right ones")
(DIR) Post #Ai5dRB4rXxWU7Fmpk0 by k1m@chaos.social
2024-05-20T17:42:44Z
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@foone May I share unsolicited printer advice? It looks in this photo as though the nozzle is partially clogged and is causing extrusion issues. You may get better results / less fragile prints if you get a needle or nozzle unclogger folks sell.
(DIR) Post #Ai5eAMQgBgHOM2XJ7g by foo@fosstodon.org
2024-05-20T17:56:44Z
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@foone So with Amazon being the highest authority on retail these days, it would be safe to say you're waiting on rods from the gods?
(DIR) Post #Ai5lMofdiDDZ66Q6O8 by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-20T19:18:13Z
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@k1m yeh, it's a known problem. These were done very quickly when I didn't have time to clean the printer. I'll definitely fix it before I do the actual prints.
(DIR) Post #Ai5n3syffswirTQHQG by dtelder@mastodon.nu
2024-05-20T19:35:52Z
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@foone Wanted 4 inches, ordered 4 centimeters, blamed usual suspect. ;)
(DIR) Post #Ai5tlXkCa337TRr7HU by k1m@chaos.social
2024-05-20T20:51:42Z
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@foone As long as you know how / know it's an issue. Good luck with your floppy label digitization project.
(DIR) Post #Ai624IcDqt07gkZtFw by altareos@mstdn.social
2024-05-20T22:23:26Z
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@foone is it the 1.1 missing mm from the imperial/metric conversion?
(DIR) Post #Ai62XRquaXRGjaLdWi by altareos@mstdn.social
2024-05-20T22:25:45Z
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@foone is it the 1.1 missing millimetre from the imperial/metric conversion?
(DIR) Post #Ai62tBp4rmvhOFrCoi by foone@digipres.club
2024-05-20T22:34:32Z
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@altareos yeah. 3.5" floppy disks were designed by sony, who actually designed them as 90mm disks