Post Adb63sJDj6N6ATjySW by siderea@universeodon.com
(DIR) More posts by siderea@universeodon.com
(DIR) Post #AdavEyP0JTNmkuXFVA by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T02:19:17Z
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my thermonuclear take is that the issue here isn’t whether it matters that we call AI “AI”but that Mastodon’s culture is poorly socialized and people here have a hard time doing constructive conversationThis is frequently lamented as “replyguyism,” but I think that’s imprecise. Something happened along the way to mislead people here that derailing the conversation makes friendshttps://simonwillison.net/2024/Jan/7/call-it-ai/
(DIR) Post #AdavEzPOZVI1sPj4ka by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2024-01-07T03:58:30.311257Z
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@danilo That presuposes all interactions have as a goal to make friends.Sometimes your goal is quite simply to speak your mind, whether or not it is accepted, and nothing more.Arguably, anything else invites self-censorship in the longer term.
(DIR) Post #AdavF25IcfzuAxLZLM by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T02:24:08Z
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The way to make friends on the internet is, in the words of Twitter viral dude visakanv, to support the OPWhich is not to say be a sycophant. Sometimes entertaining a bid means to take it seriously enough to disagree. But to do so in a way that PASSES THE VIBE CHECK is what matters.something happened to the culture here that just lobotomized any ability to read vibes lmao
(DIR) Post #AdavF5UZx908kECIfA by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T02:29:06Z
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it’s funny because this is even baked into the product identitiesTwitter at its best was a harmonious jam session of the mind. When it worked, it was jazz. To be sure, it was also among the most dramatic PvP platforms in internet historyMastodon is much more people bleating a horn in your ear at max volume.Going viral on Twitter inspired anxiety over context collapse.Going viral here is the dread of “good lord am I going to be exposed to truly socially awkward shit for the next day”
(DIR) Post #AdavF8c8LVpKQWksM4 by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T04:11:26Z
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Bingo@siderea nails it in this threadWhat I would add is that, to my digital social mores, and to common sense, my finite cognitive bandwidth is ipso facto MY space, and anyone who is boorish in occupying it earns anything from an eye roll to outright loathingAND THAT IS AS IT SHOULD BEhttps://universeodon.com/@siderea/111712696674235908
(DIR) Post #AdavFCDSxATJbBFESe by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T04:23:55Z
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MySpace: a place for friends.Twitter: what’s happening.Mastodon: one of those conveyor belt sushi places but it’s a never ending parade of targets for your misplaced sanctimonyalso Mastodon: waithttps://techcrunch.com/2023/11/22/mastodon-tackles-the-problem-of-reply-guys-with-its-latest-feature/
(DIR) Post #AdavFFbKMuLE63QpZQ by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T04:25:06Z
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Reminding people they’re about to make a first impression IS the core of it, though
(DIR) Post #AdavGynPouaWYWuUlc by danilo@hachyderm.io
2024-01-07T04:07:19Z
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@lispi314 thank you, this is such a common format for failing the vibe check that I can automatically filter it in the futureFolks can speak their minds on their own TL. Part of social skill is knowing when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em
(DIR) Post #AdavGzos0zLVjKbAfo by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2024-01-07T04:16:07.540807Z
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@danilo I find myself most disinterested in such skills then.In any case, this result illustrates the point I meant to express better than I ever could've made it.
(DIR) Post #AdavH8eDBzAT6sgHoG by immibis@social.immibis.com
2024-01-07T04:17:02.252246Z
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@danilo @lispi314 Is this a filter just for what you see or for everyone sees?
(DIR) Post #AdavH9NaTHSpNbuWXI by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2024-01-07T04:18:38.963795Z
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@immibis That only affects the client of the user adding & applying the filters.
(DIR) Post #Adb5ByV2Ug4FjLZDtY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2024-01-07T08:36:56Z
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@danilo> Mastodon’s culture is poorly socialized and people here have a hard time doing constructive conversationThe author of the link you posted doesn't seem to think so 🤷♂️"My link to this post on Mastodon has attracted thoughtful commentary that goes well beyond the straw man argument I posed above."https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jan/7/call-it-ai/
(DIR) Post #Adb5rXiGTar4ocZfmq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2024-01-07T08:44:39Z
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@daniloMaybe the phrase "the way to make friends" needs some thought? There are many different ways to make friends. Each one working better for some people than others.
(DIR) Post #Adb63cCbbvZcDKWSvY by glyph@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T03:23:04Z
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@danilo personally I have had the opposite experience. Perhaps I was too late to Twitter to ever experience the jazz and instead got only the excruciating cacophony. But in both cases, there are definitely two types of people: repliers who regard the replies as *their* space, and those who regard it as *the OP’s space*. On mastodon if you encounter the posting HOA, they very much regard your posts as intruding on *their* experience; any reply they give is therefore fair game.
(DIR) Post #Adb63d9S58e39q3SeO by glyph@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T03:23:05Z
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@danilo I do a lot of replying on here (I’m doing it now!), and sometimes I might be a *bad* guest, but I try to view myself *as* a guest in someone else’s replies, and I seem to have a lot of success with that. When someone very obviously sees replies to someone else’s post as their own space where the OP has already intruded, it leads to a lot of conflict and just generally incomprehensibly rude behavior.
(DIR) Post #Adb63e1KqnkLqxGUdc by glyph@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T03:23:06Z
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@danilo Prior to social media, this was much clearer given the affordances of blogs. The comments on A’s blog are very clearly A’s space. If B is being an ass there, they get booted and nobody is confused about why. But on both Twitter and Mastodon, it’s annoyingly vague and there’s no social consensus. I think mastodon might benefit from giving this sort of control to posters, so that people can curate their own audience interactions without running their own patched single-user instance.
(DIR) Post #Adb63emq0BkCEHUQgC by irenes@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T03:26:21Z
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@glyph @danilo fundamentally we think the structural decision in the platforms that reinforces the current state of things is that everything is flatlike in terms of navigation features and data model, everything is basically just tweets/toots. replies to tweets and toots are themselves tweets and toots. all replies are of the same type (compare BobaBoard and Tumblr). thread navigation features try to make a little sense of it, but that requires extra attention to get anything from.
(DIR) Post #Adb63feilqqUvOhSfQ by irenes@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T03:27:24Z
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@glyph @danilo the result is that social norms which would be obvious if a stranger were walking into your home and shouting at you, or even interrupting you as you walked past them on a public sidewalk, are not immediately obvious to everyone and must be actively constructed.
(DIR) Post #Adb63gTli3g9TiaEEa by irenes@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T03:29:15Z
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@glyph @danilo this flattening isn't an accident; it had to be actively invented. older platforms didn't do it to the same degree. the likely core motivation for it is that it drives engagement. more than that, though, someone could even have invented the flattening thinking of it as a good thing for society; erasing distinctions is part and parcel with cyberneticism, which was an active driver in the structure of the early internet.
(DIR) Post #Adb63hRg7JbKTWc4cC by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T03:53:42Z
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I want to start off by saying I agree completely – nay, ardently – with this observation that conversation on the Fediverse is largely pathological because there is no sense of people having spaces that are theirs. There's two important parts of this.There's the "flatness", as you've put it, @irenes: the user experience here simply doesn't communicate that there are different spaces one is moving between. Or perhaps it is more accurate to say there *aren't* spaces.🧵@glyph @danilo
(DIR) Post #Adb63iXO3ZlHrWI99U by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T03:58:17Z
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@irenes @glyph @danilo In any event, users haven't got a prayer of having any sense that they are in somebody else's space – much less realized they should moderate their conduct accordingly – unless they come from some other online world, such as blogs, and carry over that paradigm.Another way of putting this is that there are no visible *boundaries*. Good fences, the poet wrote, make good neighbors. Boundaries aren't just for keeping people in or out, they're lintels and doorways.🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb63jROhKZ4fEUsSG by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:00:17Z
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@irenes @glyph @danilo Boundaries let us know when we're supposed to toggle our behavior from one mode into another. When you enter the library, you lower your voice. When you enter the house party, you go to greet the host. Visible boundaries let us know when we're free to treat a place like our own, and when we are to conduct ourselves as guests in somebody else's space.We don't have those here.🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb63kDxmlPf5rDf9c by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:02:39Z
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@irenes @glyph @danilo And the thing is, there are plenty of people out there in the face-to-face who even when they have all the signposts and fences in the world are still a little confused by the idea that different spaces, different contexts, actually have different norms and require different conduct.So my theory as to how and why this happened here is a little different. I think it was something of an accident, but it was glommed onto by users who LIKE this.🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb63l1EpYpPYgH0xU by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:04:34Z
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@irenes @glyph @danilo I mean, this problem here is directly inherited from Twitter. The people who built this thing built it to be like Twitter in this particular way.I think that this flatness of Twitter and now of Mastodon is actually regarded as a feature by a certain population of users.I think that out there are users who *like* the idea of not having to be a guest in other people's spaces to interact with them, who *like* the absence of boundaries. 🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb63m330Jryka7yPw by glyph@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T04:06:03Z
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@siderea @irenes @danilo I want to be clear that the tone I am saying this with is reverence and enthusiastic agreement with everything you've said in this thread, but if I may "yes, and" a bit: there's a very fine line between the absence of boundaries (very bad) and the absence of arbitrary hierarchies of power (very good) and unfortunately a lot of design decisions that get you one also get you the other
(DIR) Post #Adb63mmQHcAL1JMD8y by irenes@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T04:13:23Z
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@glyph @siderea @danilo absolutely agreedso we've chewed a lot on this and we think that current platforms make access decisions in a kind of ongoing, forever-until-changed kind of waywhich does not at all match social patterns that work well in physical reality. when you invite someone to a party you're hosting that is a one-time decision. you aren't making a binding ruling on who they can hang out with elsewhere or later, only on this one event.
(DIR) Post #Adb63muvlyyHRhL0PA by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:07:54Z
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@irenes @glyph @danilo Personally, I loathe it. But that's just me.I said above there were two parts to the pathological nature of conversation here caused by the lack of boundaries, one being that people can't *tell* when they've moved into somebody else's space because there is no boundary in the UX to tell them that they have. The other one is that users have zero authority over their own space. They have no moderator tools, so it's a real question whether it's THEIR space.🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb63na3J5rfVEZqV6 by irenes@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T04:15:42Z
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@glyph @siderea @danilo we need to create online spaces whose metaphors facilitate these recurring, one-time opt-in things, rather than ongoing ones. make it an active decision who you spend time with.hard block will always need to be there (for example, for the angry ex-partner threat model), but the goal should be to architect everything so that it's very rarely needed
(DIR) Post #Adb63ohBA59wxcv3FQ by glyph@mastodon.social
2024-01-07T04:19:59Z
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@irenes @siderea @danilo 100%. Hard blocks are really the only *structural* option for moderating one's space here, and they are an all-or-nothing nuclear option. "Go home and think about what you've done, you're drunk" should not be the same signal as "all future communication should be through my lawyer, I never wish to hear from you again". People discover boundaries through minor sanctions, so if you have to take it from 0 to 100 in a single infraction nobody can ever learn anything.
(DIR) Post #Adb63onCnfypGJjrdo by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:10:28Z
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@irenes @glyph @danilo This means people who would like to keep order in their own space have no way of doing so. Users have no defense against anything they think of as bad behavior. Well, nothing except verbal assertion and aggression.
(DIR) Post #Adb63pVW8vQRTkTFi4 by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:30:23Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo Ooh, if we're making shopping lists, I have some items to add.Over on DW, which has probably the best boundaries model ever implemented (still missing some things I would like), I have the option of setting users to pre-moderation. I can set the default for my entire space to pre-moderation, I can set the replies to a single OP to pre-moderation, I can set certain groups of users to pre-moderation, & I can set individuals to pre-moderation.
(DIR) Post #Adb63qNktGoKBxqZFY by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:32:37Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo The thing about moderation tools is they're not just about moderating an individual's interaction with me, and this is an example of that.My number one use of pre-moderation is to deal with commenters who are well meaning but hijack my threads.I don't just do this because I don't want to interact with them. I do it bc I don't want them to turn my conversation to some other topic.
(DIR) Post #Adb63rLfIWjVBlsPdA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2024-01-07T08:46:46Z
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@siderea> My number one use of pre-moderation is to deal with commenters who are well meaning but hijack my threadsYou use Mute Conversation for this?@glyph @irenes @danilo
(DIR) Post #Adb63sJDj6N6ATjySW by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:34:45Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo Like, there are people I know that if I ask a question "how do I do this in PHP" will start a flame war about PHP in the comments, thereby all but guaranteeing I will not get any answers to my question.I can put those people on pre-moderation, and then they can make their comment about PHP being a fractal of badness – which it is! – and I can prevent it from consuming all the oxygen in my room.
(DIR) Post #Adb63uLm8ZbUUyx2ie by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:36:06Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo By these means I don't have to exclude these people from conversation. I just vet their comment first. And it means as they get the hang of doing this conversation thing, and I have to worry less and less about their conduct, I can take the pre-moderation off their account.It allows them room to grow.
(DIR) Post #Adb63wIet8IaXtVa8e by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:40:59Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo But relatedly there's something else I want which I don't have over there.One of the fundamental problems, oh, pretty much everywhere is a specific enduring confusion about boundaries and privacy: that THE way to have boundaries is to "make things private", i.e secret or invisible.Like here on Mastodon (as on Twitter) you can restrict who follows you and then restrict the visibility of your toots to only your followers.🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb63yDPlbICUD4QF6 by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:46:26Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo Allow me to point out this confuses READ operations and WRITE operations!If what one wants to do is regulate people commenting in one's space, one wants to regulate who can WRITE in one's space (and how they do it), not who can READ it.What we really need are tools to allow Write control, as much as Read control. One shouldn't have to make one's content private to have some say in how people interact with you in your space.🧵
(DIR) Post #Adb6402qxq26A2913g by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T04:49:19Z
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@glyph @irenes @danilo DW allows me to say "pre-moderate everyone I don't follow" (a W perm). DW allows me to say "only show this to logged in users on this arbitrary ACL list." (a R perm). DW DOESN'T allow me to say, "allow anyone to see this, but pre-moderate everyone except logged in users on this arbitrary ACL list." (a W perm).So I can't set up a public conversation among known knowledgeable commenters.
(DIR) Post #Adb6V0gmg4dRydhXhw by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2024-01-07T08:51:43Z
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@glyph> When someone very obviously sees replies to someone else’s post as their own space where the OP has already intrudedIntriguing. I've never thought of threads as being owned by anyone. To me it's a shared space, owned by everyone in it, so everyone has an incentive to make it a good place to be.I would go so far as to say the idea that a thread is "owned" by anyone is the biggest cause of rude behaviour here in my experience.@danilo
(DIR) Post #Adb72T9BtLgznKwVvc by siderea@universeodon.com
2024-01-07T08:57:49Z
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@strypey No because it doesn't actually work for that. I was speaking of using DW's screening feature. @glyph @irenes @danilo
(DIR) Post #Adbw2cbhKuErQIOv32 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2024-01-07T18:28:49Z
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@siderea> it doesn't actually work for thatOf course it doesn't, sorry for the distraction.I must stop posting when I'm tired. For me it's pretty much like posting drunk : P@glyph @irenes @danilo
(DIR) Post #Adbw6ne8Eb4woqX1Ie by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2024-01-07T18:27:46Z
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@siderea> it doesn't actually work for thatOf course it doesn't, sorry. I must stop posting when I'm tired. For me it's pretty much like posting drunk : P@glyph @irenes @danilo
(DIR) Post #Adcf6YTH9QAfgwi9RI by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2024-01-08T02:54:16.947396Z
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One thing I really love about the fediverse is that I can post what really are long-form essays about things and people respond and give feedback, in the same timeline as someone posting 4chan greentext and pictures of cute girls doing silly things.