Post Adb52An5wNFOxHL3cu by lispm@moth.social
(DIR) More posts by lispm@moth.social
(DIR) Post #AdaF9S8ycrm9BWiwRE by galdor@emacs.ch
2024-01-06T22:54:04Z
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@nytpu But OpenSSL is very portable, so as long as you distribute the shared library along your program it will work out just fine right?In a perfect world you would implement TLS, but that means implementing X509, ASN.1, and a ton of crypto primitives. So yeah, OpenSSL it is.
(DIR) Post #AdaIjTDsOJcIopsidU by galdor@emacs.ch
2024-01-06T23:34:11Z
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@nytpu Native? Linux has nothing of the sort, and FreeBSD uses OpenSSL in the base system.OpenSSL 3.0 is also much easier to use correctly, which is why I only target this version (see https://github.com/galdor/tungsten/tree/master/tungsten-openssl/src).At the end of the day it's not like you have a choice.
(DIR) Post #Adb2RYdC8kSWGu7Xg8 by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T06:36:24Z
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@nytpu @lispi314 there were a bunch of cheaper Lisp commercial implementations, they are all gone. Surviving as a tiny independent development tool vendor in a tiny niche market is a lot different from what you expect it to be.
(DIR) Post #Adb4dddxWvBjCUMmie by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2024-01-07T03:09:13.625579Z
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@nytpu @lispm They really need to fix their prices to be realistic.Even *Apple's* dev stuff isn't that absurdly priced.
(DIR) Post #Adb4djbLNYf3g7BmTY by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T06:07:30Z
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@lispi314 @nytpu it's "absurd" to compare the business of a 3 trillion dollar company to a tiny company in a niche market who has a handful of people. Apple's dev stuff is financed by high hardware prices. You pay more for a RAM upgrade, than the independent dev tool costs. Apple sells you a $1000 stand for a monitor. Lisp companies (and we only have a few surviving) need to be realistic, to not get out of business. Their prices are more realistic than your expectations.
(DIR) Post #Adb4dnia4apKRibcJM by lispi314@udongein.xyz
2024-01-07T07:09:56.177481Z
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@lispm @nytpu Their prices are ensuring no one new will come to them.That's not exactly a recipe for growth, and it works for surviving only so long as their current customers do.Paying more than 5x what I paid for my computer in order to be able to make binaries just for that architecture and maybe another? Not a very attractive proposition.
(DIR) Post #Adb4dozdKg3sOtakWu by zyd@emacs.ch
2024-01-07T07:27:13Z
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@lispi314 @lispm @nytpu I'm convinced these last Lisp companies rely entirely on Lisp whales to keep going. Some old heads that are willing to pay absurd amounts of money (idk why) or companies too lazy to hire Lisp programmers to do rewrites. When the whales go so will these proprietary compilers.
(DIR) Post #Adb4dpk4Y1CyivJpui by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T07:41:22Z
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@zyd @lispi314 @nytpu (Some old heads) "When the whales go so will these proprietary compilers." - actually currently we see non-proprietary compilers go away a lot. Mostly SBCL is left, all the others are maintained by very few people, if at all.
(DIR) Post #Adb4dqZpRabnJRXAaO by zyd@emacs.ch
2024-01-07T07:52:15Z
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@lispm @lispi314 @nytpu Besides SBCL there is CCL, ECL, Clasp, and ABCL. And though I wouldn't consider it a user implementation, SICL. From what I can see all are decently maintained though I will agree that they are maintained by a small amount of people. Such is the case in a niche language with specialized skills (compilers). At least their maintenance isn't tied up and dependent on profit and/or a few high paying customers.
(DIR) Post #Adb4drKycIK3ffap4i by screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-01-07T08:01:03Z
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@zyd actually, I think these conjectures answer each other. There are a bunch of nice compilers which have specific heritages and advantages with long histories and active maintenance by people with different mechanisms.Looking at the company I dug up as an example, there are also international companies that offer specialised lisp image products that package it with Your Choice Of Either Franz Or Lispworks.This is what our ecosystem is like.@lispm @lispi314 @nytpu
(DIR) Post #Adb4dsHp5VOUcB7onY by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T08:03:50Z
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@screwtape @zyd @lispi314 @nytpu I would think that Franz pays for Allegro CL partly with ACL customers and partly with their own database offering, which is written in ACL.
(DIR) Post #Adb4dtSqhzoAGfI8ci by iska@catposter.club
2024-01-07T08:30:53.924Z
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@lispm@moth.social @screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org @zyd@emacs.ch @lispi314@udongein.xyz @nytpu@tilde.zone I should add that the database IS actually good, and is probably the reason people are willing to pay the ridiculous prices.https://franz.com/products/allegrocache/AllegroCache_White_Paper.pdfHowever, for random object (record) read, AllegroCache performed 7 times faster than MySQL
(DIR) Post #Adb4dtpXLdxLP1uFzE by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T08:07:07Z
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@screwtape @zyd @lispi314 @nytpu they seem to be able to finance some new things. The recently released Allegro CL has now its complete IDE & GUI as a web app in the browser.
(DIR) Post #Adb529rJPD1i44IuYq by screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-01-07T08:07:52Z
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@lispm oh I bet it's not a coincidence that Medley has that and Allegro as well.@zyd @lispi314 @nytpu
(DIR) Post #Adb52An5wNFOxHL3cu by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T08:09:09Z
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@screwtape @zyd @lispi314 @nytpu Medley does something different. Medley gives you something like VNC in the web. Allegro CL connects itself to the web browser.
(DIR) Post #Adb52BgOclU1inDDpA by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2024-01-07T08:35:25.649437Z
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@lispm @screwtape @zyd @lispi314 @nytpu Tooting my own horn: https://applied-langua.ge/~hayley/il/ldesdl.html
(DIR) Post #Adb5XtKkNiKS4yCh1s by screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-01-07T08:10:22Z
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@lispm (thanks for the clarification, I've never actually looked at web medley)@zyd @lispi314 @nytpu
(DIR) Post #Adb5Xu4pcNByNtlUrQ by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T08:14:41Z
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@screwtape @zyd @lispi314 @nytpu It's a nice way to check it out, though. https://interlisp.org/software/install-and-run/
(DIR) Post #Adb5p2WXSwNRVMtcUS by screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-01-07T08:34:01Z
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@iska there's also ridiculous prices and ridiculous prices. I know a few people who like to remind me that when a company hires a person to perform a role, thousands of dollars for that person per year is not much. ...ugh enough corporate commentary from me@nytpu @lispm @lispi314 @zyd
(DIR) Post #Adb7AwmhaKFA1uSyu0 by screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-01-07T06:56:45Z
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@lispm @nytpu @lispi314 @zoerhoff @jackdaniel what's the current account name of the Quebecian I'm trying to remember? They are super on the mastodon contrary to what their website says, I'm sure I've looked at this name recently.
(DIR) Post #Adb7AxpvfoQ3ICz4ZU by screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org
2024-01-07T07:01:37Z
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@lispm @nytpu @lispi314 @zoerhoff @jackdaniel Last try before anyone unfriendsters me for being curious.@mapcar do you know anyone who has been involved with Franz, or would give friendly commentary about it? (Withstanding I'm librebrained)
(DIR) Post #Adb7AydYhI7Nm8Chvc by jackdaniel@functional.cafe
2024-01-07T08:29:45Z
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@screwtape @lispm @nytpu @lispi314 @zoerhoff @mapcar Regarding friendly commentary - they cosponsor european lisp symposium and donate to common lisp foundation, they do innovate and evolve by providing new software products and, I think, they are only vendor capable of providing enterprise support for big clients. From Lisp viability perspective they do good fo CL, even if their offer to individual devs is not good.
(DIR) Post #AdbNwbiWoYJZrDGK36 by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T10:47:37Z
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@zyd @lispi314 @nytpu CCL struggles because it lacks core developers. People who can hack on internals and are able to port a native compiled Lisp system to new platforms. People who are willing to invest their time and capabilities, plus they need to see that they are getting fair amount of income for it.
(DIR) Post #AdbNwcZhcqqiW88mvo by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2024-01-07T12:07:19.190690Z
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@lispm @zyd @lispi314 @nytpu I wrote the parallel GC for SBCL on donations (and recently a peer bonus from Google). I wasn't very fast at writing it as I'd work on it when I had spare time from university, but it definitely still works out to a low hourly rate. (Also slowed down now that I graduated, as there's less to do and the remaining optimisations are trickier.) However I appreciate that it's risky work as it was an untested GC design, and somewhat niche in that you might not have any GC performance issues, so the demand is low in this domain. But ITA/Google uses SBCL, so there are employed maintainers.
(DIR) Post #AdbNwczw3JphpUPjou by lispm@moth.social
2024-01-07T10:49:28Z
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@zyd @lispi314 @nytpu Some money seems to be available. Recently there are currently new ideas how to find and fund dev(s) for a new port of CCL.I would think that excellent developers in the US can earn from 100k USD per year upwards... moving to niche tech for a one time time-limited gig then is a challenge...See the recent discussions on the Clozure CL mailing list for the renewed interest in getting a port done.
(DIR) Post #AdbOcIxSwzE1q78Fii by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2024-01-07T12:14:51.726605Z
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@lispm @lispi314 @nytpu @zyd Not that I was trying very hard to get money (then, now my plans changed and I am going to have to pay rent, so past me made a mistake there) - it's pretty fun to hack...most of the time, and looks nice on a résumé. IME though funding isn't so plentiful.