Post AdRS3zWNAPbfwlknDM by tripu@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by tripu@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AdRNfV7Q9RWotA9Jqa by dans@mastodon.me.uk
2024-01-02T16:04:11Z
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@neil Am I being naive to think that it's not considered assault in most reasonable countries?
(DIR) Post #AdRNfVqnQjpB9tNYZc by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T16:17:06Z
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@dansI don’t think it’s reasonable. A kiss in public: sexual assault, a criminal offence?/cc @neil
(DIR) Post #AdROTxPfECix7Yk3Ye by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T16:26:14Z
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@dansIn #Spain, the idea that a kiss like that (in public, without consent) could be considered “sexual assault” and a “crime” has been contrasted with several very recent cases of other (female) personalities forcibly kissing someone on TV. It is obvious to everyone that behaviour like that should not be punished with prison time or some other very harsh conviction./cc @neil
(DIR) Post #AdROhMiATqI7Lan4Gu by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T16:28:35Z
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@neilThat’s what I mean, yes./cc @dans
(DIR) Post #AdROhrE71dfXzLy0EC by dans@mastodon.me.uk
2024-01-02T16:28:43Z
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@tripu Three men passing judgement on this is not a good look. Justifying an action because a woman has done something similar is unacceptable.
(DIR) Post #AdRPrD5DEVDIKrpMYq by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T16:41:39Z
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@dansOur sex is irrelevant, as is the “look” (?) of this thread. Let’s discuss arguments.I’m not justifying “that kiss”. I found it horrible and reprehensible, and was expecting Rubiales to be sacked immediately, at the least. I’m confronting that with comparable acts where our intuition tells us “that should not be punished with jail time; that person should not face criminal charges”, as a useful heuristic.
(DIR) Post #AdRQSSeqI0gJM1FvAO by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T16:48:22Z
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@neilI’m out of my depth here: isn’t there an important qualitative difference between “crimes” and other ways of breaking the law, such as offences and felonies?To me, intuitively, an unwanted kiss belongs in the latter categories.Honest question: what are the mildest crimes, and the worst offences (under, say, US/UK/Spanish law)? I mean, as points of reference./cc @dans
(DIR) Post #AdRRcjDpesbjZs57gW by dans@mastodon.me.uk
2024-01-02T17:01:22Z
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@tripu Disappointingly, there's more than a touch of misogyny in your posts and linked blog, so I have to take the view that what happened at the WWC was not serious or a crime. cc @neil
(DIR) Post #AdRS3xGhXhsmxaPFVg by dans@mastodon.me.uk
2024-01-02T16:53:27Z
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@neil @tripu I'd also not consider any sexual offence as 'mild' in the way @tripu is trying to differentiate. My point about three men discussing this is that as 40-something, white, presumably straight based on profiles, Western men, we are the definition of privilege.
(DIR) Post #AdRS3zWNAPbfwlknDM by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T17:06:20Z
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@dansAbout “our privilege”: then we have a fundamental disagreement about epistemology and rules of discourse, and you are right: it would be impossible for us to discuss this. Not because we are white and straight, but because I need to know those traits won’t be taken into consideration at all, while you seem to place great importante on them./cc @neil
(DIR) Post #AdRUMcuvdEbZFiFlho by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T17:32:07Z
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@dansFor the record (since he blocked me):He accused me of “misogyny” with no specific claims or arguments.He says that I think that what happened at the WWC “was not serious”, but I said in public back in August that it was “horrible” and that I felt “disgust” and “shame”. I even said to him a moment ago that “I found it horrible and reprehensible, and was expecting Rubiales to be sacked immediately, at the least”. So I have to presume bad faith on his part./cc @neil
(DIR) Post #AdRVNx26QZ6VsrnvxA by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T17:43:34Z
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@neilI think that’s the crux of our differences here. IANAL, but under Spanish law “criminal offences” are punishable with prison while all other types of offences carry suspensions, fines, community service, etc. Also, only criminal offences leave a trace on the criminal record of the person convicted.
(DIR) Post #AdRag1hWJHuFLRcDPU by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T18:42:52Z
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@neilMe too.
(DIR) Post #AdReb1Df4ZyYDhW6YS by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T19:26:48Z
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@neilIf “non-consensually kissing someone” were a criminal offence an left a criminal record, wouldn’t many/most people be criminals and carry a criminal record for life?The specific incident at the WWC was particularly bad for a number of circumstances (power dynamic between boss and employee, and millions of people watching in real time). But the act itself (someone non-consensually kissing someone else) happens quite often. I was young once. Ask teenagers flirting (or thinking they’re flirting). I’m not saying it’s OK. But, isn’t it very disproportionate to call it a crime?
(DIR) Post #AdRiSX7lTurwNiy53o by tripu@qoto.org
2024-01-02T20:10:02Z
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@neilOh, dear. Why is it so difficult to discuss stuff dispassionately?What I’m saying is that many people I know (good, non-violent, non-sexist people) have at some point in their lives kissed someone without been given explicit consent to do so beforehand. I have even witnessed that, and I did not call the police. In those instances I have in mind, the “victim” themselves definitely didn’t think much of that — and not because they were afraid of the “perpetrator”, brainwashed or delusional. No violence ensued. More often than not, there were awkward laughs. At most, a shout and an expletive. If I told you about those incidents in detail, I think in most cases you would find the situation more “cute” or “embarrassing” than “offensive”.All I’m saying is: those were not “sexual assaults” in the least, those people are not “criminals”, and surely their employers don’t need to know about those incidents.Is all this really so alien to your own experience and so far from your expectations about flawed human interactions?I promise this is my last answer to you in this thread, unless you tell me that you want to continue.