Post AdK6saZS8JuEEfCFWK by gkrnours@mastodon.gamedev.place
(DIR) More posts by gkrnours@mastodon.gamedev.place
(DIR) Post #AdDBp7d9snlb8s8nDs by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-26T19:38:59Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
Due to the extremely large number of basic functions "systemd" has usurped from other parts of the OS, a natural and interesting project would be to see if systemd can now exist independently apart from Linux, or rather, to ascertain what is the most minimal alternate kernel that could serve as a life support system for successfully running systemd. Since calling this "System System" would be absurd, the most logical name for such a project would be "d OS", or "DOS". In this Mastodon post I will
(DIR) Post #AdDNUw6YE1oP3N1vO4 by danirabbit@mastodon.online
2023-12-26T20:04:34Z
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@mcc I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, systemd/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning systemd system made useful by the systemd corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by @pid_eins
(DIR) Post #AdDNV7P2De8K5slLE0 by Ace6V8h03hxzselrPM.jeff@mk.magicka.org
2023-12-26T22:09:13.070Z
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@danirabbit@mastodon.online @mcc@mastodon.social @pid_eins@mastodon.social i actually like systemd because my issue tracker isn't flooded by pro systemd weenies when i add an openrc init script shim complaining that i dont support init freedom.
(DIR) Post #AdK6saZS8JuEEfCFWK by gkrnours@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-26T19:43:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mcc GNU/systemd
(DIR) Post #AdK6sbyeu5f8b7ztRo by SetOfAllSets@mastodon.social
2023-12-26T21:46:52Z
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@gkrnours @mcc systemd/systemd, now we just need systemc to replace glibc
(DIR) Post #AdK6sdPzXx7X4BnEgq by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-26T21:47:34Z
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@SetOfAllSets @gkrnours I think that's musl
(DIR) Post #AdK6secR5AfWn4cgj2 by DrHyde@fosstodon.org
2023-12-26T21:57:32Z
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@mcc @SetOfAllSets @gkrnours naaaah, musl is actually useful
(DIR) Post #AdK6sg1HsG8r8RG36G by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-26T22:01:53Z
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@DrHyde @SetOfAllSets @gkrnours You know no one has at any point yet given me a reason to dislike systemd except "it is not old thing" and I didn't actually like old thing. I guess I kind of liked Upstart but certainly not the weird script mess that predated it. Whatever that was called. Boot.d or something
(DIR) Post #AdK6sgzuEsdCARcSaO by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-27T20:19:22Z
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@mcc @DrHyde @SetOfAllSets @gkrnours I think it's commonly reviled by a Kind Of Nerd for arguably being partly to blame/praise for the ongoing trend of reducing variance between the most popular linux distros.I have an alternative theory that this is actually many long time power users experiencing a decline in their own patience. The trend of uniformity they claim to observe could just be their cognitive dissonance over their preferences drifting to towards more turnkey distros.
(DIR) Post #AdK6shsUxuIetlA3g8 by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-27T20:28:56Z
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@aeva A thing I could identify as a potentially legitimate problem is that since components of systemd probably communicate "directly" rather than over defined, stable interfaces, once a job has entered systemd it may be very difficult to make it leave. For example imagine systemd is very good at job A and bad at job B. A new, improved B-doer project could be very difficult to introduce, where pre-systemd it would have been feasible, because of tight coupling between systemd and its D module.
(DIR) Post #AdK6side8c0vFzDiAS by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-27T20:29:13Z
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@aeva Hypothetically. I guess. The only specific example I seem to get of systemd components that could be performed better elsewhere is init.d, which I absolutely do not want to use. Get that out of my life.
(DIR) Post #AdK6siv161uO7rLaF6 by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-27T20:27:52Z
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@mcc @DrHyde @SetOfAllSets @gkrnours even the most stalwart linux evangelist's patience isn't immune to being needled by the same irritating problems again and again for years, but there's all this investment in the identity so the only viable compromise is installing fedora or ubuntu or gnome 3 or whatever and then complaining loudly about how their freedoms have been silenced by systemd or whatever
(DIR) Post #AdK6sjq5fpYuys3ACe by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-27T20:38:31Z
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@mcc I've heard gnome 3 has or had systemd as a required dependency for a while.My meaning is more there are still distros where you can still pick your init system and preferred permutation of system administration utilities, but doing so is fundamentally at odds with having a very predictable stable system, because the job of distro maintainers is made much much harder with that kind of combinatorial explosion.
(DIR) Post #AdK6sku1igIyHMtoye by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-27T20:43:00Z
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@mcc so my theory is users who used to be perfectly happy connecting to their wireless network via bash commands and running niche window managers and customizing every single gui toolkit to look like an acid trip run distros that let them do that. until they get fed up with all the recurring self inflicted little problems and switch to more predictable distros that shocked pikachu make it much harder for them to do that
(DIR) Post #AdK6sku1igIyHMtoyf by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-27T20:30:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aeva I will also note, for the record, that I have had two different linux systems nuke themselves because a part of systemd decided to destroy itself, *but* it is not entirely clear to me if this should be blamed on systemd per se or if it should be blamed on Ubuntu.
(DIR) Post #AdK6slz1hZtldAFKPQ by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-27T20:59:53Z
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@aeva @mcc I mostly just think that the UI change (command names and argument naming/ordering) wasn't handled very well. Sure /etc/init.d/foo start wasn't intuitive, but I mess up some or all of the following without googling (I'm writing this without googling:)service mysqld restartsystemctl mysqld enablesysctl anythingjournalctl anything -xfce"Everything is literally just a file" isn't stellar, but it exposed its intentions and you could use text editors to fix things
(DIR) Post #AdK6snSqCDLEDvCeWG by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-12-27T21:04:56Z
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@wilbr @aeva @mcc yeah so its service <servicename> <subcmd> but systemctl <subcmd> <servicename> and it does trip me up going between alpine and systemd-linuxen but its hard to be mad about eitherservice basically just forwards the rest of its command line on to the /etc/init.d/foo script (so doesn't care or have to validate at all) while systemctl implements the subcommands itself (because they're not just shellscripts! and many of them are unrelated to service units!)
(DIR) Post #AdK6soRSYppZFvZ40O by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-12-27T21:05:55Z
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@wilbr @aeva @mcc but on the whole everything systemd is a text file, its just often a different text file
(DIR) Post #AdK6spHvPlnXse6xma by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-27T21:11:16Z
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@erincandescent @aeva @mcc I think there's also a limited number of relearnings people have the energy for, like boomers have adopted iPhones but their parents didn't even want to get a cell phone and tended to max out at flip phones. It's entirely possible that I'll just max out at kludging anything newer than service foo bar, my brain needs to be filled with other things.RIP the filesystem as much beyond a registry and siloed data dump I guess? I'll never memorize wherever systemds files are
(DIR) Post #AdK6sq5CSZDILTAJaS by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-27T21:13:01Z
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@erincandescent @aeva @mcc (there's also subtleties like I'm pretty sure mysqld is actually mysql but only sometimes, and if you're really lucky it's mysql[d].service, just a lot of fiddly new bits that don't add up to less fiddling for the user than before
(DIR) Post #AdK6sqhq8u7cHJFAoa by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-12-27T21:17:09Z
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@wilbr @aeva @mcc I'll never memorize wherever systemds files are/etc/systemd if you created them, /usr/lib/systemd if your distro shipped themthere's also subtleties like I'm pretty sure mysqld is actually mysql but only sometimesthats your distro's choice/fault, nothing to do with systemd, in fact during the transition the recommendation was to replace /etc/init.d/foo with /usr/lib/systemd/system/foo.servicebecause the latter would automatically override the former when using systemd as init
(DIR) Post #AdK6srRDQCPyY2TPXc by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-27T23:54:57Z
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@erincandescent @aeva @mcc ah so that's where all my beloved init scripts went.I miss the days of "if you want to reconfigure your system just browse /etc, if you want to back up your system config but not software you can just copy /etc" (not just as whatever you customized but the whole system)If apache moves httpd.conf to /usr/lib/httpd/conf/httpd.conf I might just exit sysadminning entirely
(DIR) Post #AdK6ssHgH8NxAl1JJo by erincandescent@queer.af
2023-12-27T23:59:26Z
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@wilbr @aeva @mcc we're two very different people here because I dispise installed config files (because they make tracking what configurations I changed on my system hard)But I'm also an enjoyer of all of NixOS, Kubernetes, and Alpine in diskless mode
(DIR) Post #AdK6stCkqw2U1litHM by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-28T01:23:43Z
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@erincandescent @aeva @mcc for systems as cattle, sure, let's keep defaults and customizations separate. But for systems as pets toys and tools, one of the charms of *nix has been that (with preinstalled packages) you can go totally offline and explore/modify the system using little more than ls and less, and maybe grep for the truly adventurous. The systemd direction seems headed more towards a windows registry thing where undiscoverable defaults exist in places mortals shouldn't tread
(DIR) Post #AdK6stMgG1ykWYMoka by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-27T23:58:06Z
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@erincandescent @aeva @mcc oops, time to hang up my hat
(DIR) Post #AdK6stvm9Y3GHOmqS8 by mcc@mastodon.social
2023-12-28T01:25:17Z
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@wilbr @erincandescent @aeva if it were me I would simply document the defaults as well as the systems for changing them
(DIR) Post #AdK6sumazAIovDV1ma by wilbr@glitch.social
2023-12-28T01:31:51Z
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@mcc @erincandescent @aeva for sure, and man pages are good, I'm just mourning my trusty machete and walking stick (less and ls)If you ever catch me browsing around /usr like it's a shopping mall, call the retirement home because it's time ;)
(DIR) Post #AdK6svZW3HQzMwO62C by aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-30T03:57:25Z
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@wilbr @mcc @erincandescent @aceattorneybot render
(DIR) Post #AdK6swCrgyuTKynWMq by aceattorneybot@gameliberty.club
2023-12-30T04:05:52Z
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@aeva @wilbr @mcc @erincandescent Here's the court session