Post AdJhO0UrC4imoPMr6O by jason@logoff.website
(DIR) More posts by jason@logoff.website
(DIR) Post #AdJdeZ0wE7regO0qpM by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:36:44Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
A common assertion is that conferences shouldn't remove anyone who hasn't been convicted in court. This means that conferences can't remove people who scream over speakers, who drunkenly harass other attendees, who shit in the catering, and so on - this may be disruptive, may even be criminal, but even if you saw it happen they haven't been found guilty and so should be allowed to continue attending.I don't think people want to attend conferences run by people who sincerely believe this.
(DIR) Post #AdJeSLwl5LlKdMnbOa by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:43:02Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
"But they might sue us if we kick them out!" for what? Just say that they're not welcome. There's no need to say why. You're not obliged to say anything that they could argue was defamatory. Refund them if you want to avoid an argument about that.If people could easily win lawsuits over being kicked out of an event, every club on the planet that had barred someone for being an asshole would be out of business.
(DIR) Post #AdJeejCCTIquDMvGS0 by foolishowl@social.coop
2023-12-29T22:45:11Z
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@mjg59 It's almost unheard of for anyone to be convicted of sexual abuse.It's extremely common for people to be imprisoned for defending themselves against sexual abuse.
(DIR) Post #AdJfQgRa0SevZzz1g8 by dentangle@chaos.social
2023-12-29T22:53:35Z
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@mjg59 The standard of evidence required to convict someone in a court, backed by the full violence of the state and potentially resulting in a custodial sentence, is necessarily high. "Innocent until proven guilty" - sure.However, the standard of evidence required to reasonably believe that someone should be told to bugger off, is rather lower.
(DIR) Post #AdJhO0UrC4imoPMr6O by jason@logoff.website
2023-12-29T23:09:45Z
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@mjg59 shouldn’t people be screaming through speakers _now_?Make the conference useless until they comply.
(DIR) Post #AdJhcPBwAxBzSKNr5k by Albert180@freiburg.social
2023-12-29T23:13:34Z
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@mjg59 It's not that simple, especially if he is a member.You know, maybe make some effort about the local legal situation before giving wrong advice with an attitude There is especially a need to say why in Germany, but it's still possible to ban people without the need for a conviction though https://www.vereinsrecht.de/hausrecht-des-vereins-bei-veranstaltungen.html
(DIR) Post #AdJhmUTxMNyClCcZRw by rubinjoni@mastodon.social
2023-12-29T23:17:04Z
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@mjg59 Chasing people around the premises with large, battery operated power drill / dildo combo will probably get you permabanned.
(DIR) Post #AdJhw1robbDUuLKTBo by realhackhistory@chaos.social
2023-12-29T23:19:05Z
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@mjg59 I love being labeled a “totalitarian”, as I was by one of the defenders of the person who prompted your post, by someone who thought that the police and courts were the only arbiters of right and wrong that count, which in itself seems rather totalitarian to me.
(DIR) Post #AdJi7424tVqYoFOK9I by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T23:25:10Z
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@Albert180 sorry, I meant in terms of public statement. Apologies for not being clear there, but the context was whether there'd be anything they can potentially use as evidence of defamation afterwards.
(DIR) Post #AdJmjrmelhGRvmw5s8 by RealGene@mastodon.online
2023-12-30T00:18:13Z
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@mjg59 U.S. -centric but still relevant XKCD:https://xkcd.com/1357/
(DIR) Post #AdJmtOirfiOQhAhuVs by BenSpiers@mastodon.social
2023-12-30T00:19:09Z
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@mjg59 Most people don’t go to conferences. Hope that helps.
(DIR) Post #AdJpEUSxiEwEUwSEgS by nickm@abyssdomain.expert
2023-12-30T00:46:41Z
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@mjg59 Also, if the guy in question were gonna start suing people for defamation, he probably would have done so by now.
(DIR) Post #AdJsUVe1Omv8eGxQKO by Albert180@freiburg.social
2023-12-30T01:22:47Z
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@mjg59 It's not that simple, especially if he is a member.You know, maybe make some effort about the local legal situation before giving wrong advice with an attitude There is especially a need to say why in Germany, but it's still possible to ban people without the need for a conviction though https://www.vereinsrecht.de/hausrecht-des-vereins-bei-veranstaltungen.html
(DIR) Post #AdK80fxS5VpHDKqGfI by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-12-30T04:18:13.510043Z
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@mjg59 Weirdest is like even public services kick people out, while in many countries they could actually get sued if it was discriminatory.
(DIR) Post #AdKdmx8UcXD2yCVT16 by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T10:12:37Z
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@mjg59 if this is about 37C3; JA has been asked to leave (thrown out) as soon as it was known he was there. This is basically as early as possible within the way the Congress works (not asking for ID when buying or presenting a ticket; volunteers at the door).
(DIR) Post #AdKe3VVKbj6qC95C3k by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T10:16:29Z
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@claudius What would have happened if he refused to leave?
(DIR) Post #AdKeRDms8AaYCEaxUG by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T10:20:28Z
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@mjg59 I do not believe this hypothetical will lead us anywhere. But for the sake of argument: The people organizing #37C3 have successfully defused situations before. I remember @HonkHase showing creativity and social skills in dealing with a group of posers years ago. This is not the first time people have been thrown out. "Asking someone to leave" is the polite version of throwing someone out.I am pretty sure that a number of more extreme measures could and would have been taken.
(DIR) Post #AdKeYVjdncZft6YlCi by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T10:21:57Z
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@claudius @HonkHase So making a statement that "We will do everything within our power to prevent this person from attending the event" would be a thing the organisers can say?
(DIR) Post #AdKfU8lzKWSxT48aQ4 by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T10:32:25Z
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@mjg59 Again, I do not think this discussion can lead to anything of value. I'm stopping here. Have a nice day.
(DIR) Post #AdKfdWTgZ7djaq3Bh2 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T10:32:37Z
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@claudius @HonkHase "This person is not welcome" without providing photographs of that person to your registration volunteers and a request that they not allow them in (along with a procedure for handling the situation if that person refuses) is not a meaningful restriction, as we've seen this year. More could have been done. A rapist was permitted to spend a day at the event. You don't want that person there? Do the work to prevent it, don't require attendees to do so.
(DIR) Post #AdKfliRnwjyp274rI0 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T10:33:42Z
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@claudius If you think there's nothing an event can do to prevent a rapist from being allowed in then yeah I don't think we reach agreement fuck off you're certainly adding nothing of value
(DIR) Post #AdKhTqOnqNIeOGHN8y by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T10:51:42Z
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@mjg59 you are putting words in my mouth. Please do not do that.
(DIR) Post #AdKheb6n2AD89XyuAa by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T10:52:04Z
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@claudius So clarify what you were saying
(DIR) Post #AdKjkMs74vGNe0znMG by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T11:10:44Z
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@mjg59 within the framework of the community, which values privacy and anonymity, it is exceedingly hard to make 100% absolutely sure that someone undesired can't buy a ticket and enter the location. Even with measures like ID checks, there would not be a 100% guarantee that someone like him couldn't enter. Hackers being hackers, I'm sure it would quickly become a sport to circumvent measures like that.So we're back to "someone saw and identified him" - just with surveillance for everyone else.
(DIR) Post #AdKjkOkO6cGvSdOeau by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T11:12:35Z
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@mjg59 all that aside, I would also welcome an official statement barring JA from this and future events.
(DIR) Post #AdKkKcFXNi81lMEjKa by pjacock@fediscience.org
2023-12-30T11:12:19Z
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@mjg59 Doesn’t having a code of conduct which attendees must agree to simplify this?
(DIR) Post #AdKkkpxL2liBnmE9i4 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T11:15:08Z
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@claudius Scanning barcodes isn't a 100% guarantee that someone can't enter with a fake ticket, so why bother? The orga has decided to impose a minimum bar that makes it hard for someone to enter without paying - the choice to not impose any minimum bar around rejecting unwelcome individuals is a *choice*, not inherent
(DIR) Post #AdKl4iEHTtITd5d5A8 by cstross@wandering.shop
2023-12-30T11:26:11Z
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@mjg59 SF fandom's solution is for [well-run] science fiction conventions to have a published code of conduct; by becoming a member you agree to abide by it: if you break it, your membership is withdrawn and you have to leave the premises. There's a procedure for reporting and enforcing and staff should know who to point complainants at to deal with such matters.When the con committee implements this properly it works well. Caveat: SF conventions are mostly amateur-run events.
(DIR) Post #AdKlDtRPAKsv0Z967E by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T11:32:40Z
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@cstross Despite there being a great deal of precedent, tech events appear extremely unwilling to learn from any of it and so we keep ending up with the same justifications for allowing that fucking person to show up again because what if they're sad they're not allowed in?
(DIR) Post #AdKlOvz43GEK529dXk by Thebratdragon@mastodon.scot
2023-12-30T11:34:05Z
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@mjg59 attending a conference or event is a priviledge, not a right.
(DIR) Post #AdKmRv4M0bQG4AcFea by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T11:50:21Z
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@mjg59 this is also done to make sure the capacity of the location is not exceeded. As shown by the fact that there are ways to not pay for a ticket if your circumstances demand it. And, yes, this is not 100% secure and probably not 100% just. It just works well enough to make an event possible.
(DIR) Post #AdKmb29B3xzgckDa76 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T11:51:20Z
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@claudius So implementing additional controls that aren't 100% secure is still worthwhile if it reduces the probability of a rapist attending
(DIR) Post #AdKmuvBGfnIEoHgA3U by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T11:52:06Z
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@mjg59 To stay within your example: you check everyone for tickets because there is *a lot* more demand than capacity at these events (let's assume roughly every other person got a ticket). Checking for ID because 5 out of 50.000 people are barred from entry is a very different calculation, IMO.
(DIR) Post #AdKmuw39RSOXVOtC2i by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T11:54:01Z
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@mjg59 especially since the measure you would suggest (checking ID) is itself easy to circumvent AND would exclude a part of this community that actually does deserve to be there.
(DIR) Post #AdKmuwqQUFoHyDwXqa by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T11:55:31Z
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@claudius If you want to explicitly assert that it's more important that people be able to attend without ID than rapists be excluded then say that up front
(DIR) Post #AdKn3gGhUDHPANOfPU by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T11:55:47Z
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@mjg59 checking for a ticket is also a great example on your part, because many of the smaller gatherings don't really do much of enforcing tickets. I have never been asked to present my wristband at any of the smaller conferences.
(DIR) Post #AdKn3h5ORjpThb79QO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T11:56:30Z
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@claudius "We do nothing that would prevent a known rapist attending" is not a great flex for an event
(DIR) Post #AdKnF3rc6EhnX15bKC by AT1ST@mstdn.ca
2023-12-30T11:58:33Z
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@mjg59 I'm immediately reminded of the trope of clubs barring people not even for being annoying or trouble, but for...being minors.As I recall, they never get sued for keeping them out.
(DIR) Post #AdKnOKyDroeBC1bUxM by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T11:59:33Z
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@AT1ST I'm being defamed by you refusing me entry for not having ID that showed I was over 21 even though I was over 21
(DIR) Post #AdKnWuydsX5VBNtLTE by mwl@io.mwl.io
2023-12-30T12:01:03Z
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@mjg59 @cstross The tech con I help run has a simple CoC.We enforce it. We have booted people out and refused registration.It works. All you need are ethics and the guts to use them.
(DIR) Post #AdKo6qxcI06d9OXzCC by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T12:08:16Z
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@mjg59 I reject your single-minded framing of privacy. I do not think that we will reach any kind of consensus here. That's sad, because we also agree on a lot of things. I agree that JA should have been banned from future events. I agree that it should not be up to a single, possibly traumatized, person to raise this particular issue (because this one in particular is widely known) via some kind of official channel. These are points where I think more could have been done.
(DIR) Post #AdKod7MErQANGvRtFA by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T12:13:25Z
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@claudius Being explicit that you value privacy over the safety of your attendees is a legitimate choice, even if it's not one I agree with. But that's something you should communicate clearly so people can make a reasonable choice about whether they want to be there as a result.
(DIR) Post #AdKp2zxwxvOtsNQeiO by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T12:18:51Z
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@mjg59 again, I reject this framing. But the focus on privacy and anonymity of this community is widely known. This should not be a surprise to anyone, especially not to someone attending this conference.
(DIR) Post #AdKpD4I3k6FwBRdWgy by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T12:19:27Z
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@claudius So there's no harm in making that explicit
(DIR) Post #AdKpWzigRgMtneaj9U by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T12:24:46Z
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@mjg59 that's something you'd have to take up with organizers of #37C3, but I don't think they'll read this thread of ours. They are likely occupied with something else for the next few days.
(DIR) Post #AdKqAnB0V3sATtogIy by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T12:30:50Z
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@claudius Do you think they should make it explicit?
(DIR) Post #AdKr5d1cumGhVIWwwC by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T12:42:19Z
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@mjg59 As I mentioned above: I believe the CCC is known for their focus on privacy. It is your framing of "over security" that is incomplete, at best. For some of the participants, privacy is central to their security.
(DIR) Post #AdKrGQyc3FxZJyH0G8 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T12:43:46Z
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@claudius if it's well known then there's no problem in making that prioritisation explicit?
(DIR) Post #AdKrdkVXbLtQYXnChU by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T12:48:17Z
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@mjg59 in all seriousness: you're talking with someone so far removed from making any such decision. And I think for someone who has already been told to "fuck off" (your words), I've taken enough time to debate this point. I will now, as you requested, fuck off. Have a nice day.
(DIR) Post #AdKrmRN07mKHo8wUim by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-30T12:50:13Z
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@claudius I have literally no idea why you chose to involve yourself in the discussion in the first place if you're not willing to actually comment in any meaningful way
(DIR) Post #AdKrwlUw8yx185Zrwe by claudius@darmstadt.social
2023-12-30T12:51:36Z
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@mjg59 Sorry, but I can't help you find meaning in my comments.
(DIR) Post #AdKsvqX02ploP8fUQa by zdl@mastodon.online
2023-12-30T13:02:42Z
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@mjg59 I don't think people sincerely believe this. I believe they say this only for a select group of people they know are toxic pieces of shit because they match them.
(DIR) Post #AdL3xbOyMjWnYXxB2W by The_Turtle_Moves@mastodon.online
2023-12-30T15:06:09Z
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@mjg59 you hear the same standard applied to Congress and the White House. The thing is, the law has different standards for different situations, balancing the costs of false positives and false negatives.So criminal is 'beyond a reasonable doubt'Civil is 'preponderance of evidence'Getting a search warrant is 'probable cause'Removal to federal court is 'colorable defense'Getting into a convention probably should be at the lower end of the scale... Notably lower than 'firing an employee'.
(DIR) Post #AdL5yLiYMeb96ub1JA by ncweaver@thecooltable.wtf
2023-12-30T15:26:20Z
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@mjg59 @cstross Plus there is a too big tendency to say "That asshole-bomb did good work" as if that somehow forgives the damage they've done. You can do the good work without the damage.
(DIR) Post #AdLJjF85yVo1h0Ea48 by Aphrodite@chaos.social
2023-12-30T18:02:12Z
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@mjg59 Almost six years ago, org I help fell into that trap.We acknowledged error, we apologized, committed to do better, showed actionable and measurable processes and progress and actively welcomed feedback.But this.. So many indicators of org failure are present, far beyond that error in accepting certain inputs and outputs. The metaphorical SOC is flashing a lot of red lights.
(DIR) Post #AdLlkrBEmomwi8GHui by nh@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-30T23:17:05Z
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@mjg59 @claudius As somebody who isn't particularly familiar with this drama, I think that's pretty reasonable?An ID check doesn't actually ensure there are no rapists. It helps towards not having rapists *that a particular part of the community knows about*, but:1. It seems that that goal has been achieved successfully without ID checks in the end, and2. What about people who aren't as well-connected in the community? They may know of bad actors but don't get to do anything about it.
(DIR) Post #AdM0qhM3jF6NHtZDFo by dulcedemon@beekeeping.ninja
2023-12-31T02:05:38Z
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@mjg59 People who make that assertion make me laugh in an unfunny way. Since we're specifically discussing hacker conferences, the demand for a criminal conviction or other legal reprisal is utterly ridiculous. A conviction is hard to get under the best of circumstances. It's practically impossible within the hacker community. Almost everyone uses fake names. Without the abusive person's real name, there can be no legal recourse. Anyone who reveals that name to the victim is branded a snitch.
(DIR) Post #AdM4cvxl1FyWM8tNAm by nfgusedautoparts@en.osm.town
2023-12-31T02:48:31Z
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@mjg59 the conferences i attend generally have rather well defined codes of conduct. disruptive or offensive behavior is policed.