Post AdJb1VVB9SrwaUPFLM by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
(DIR) More posts by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
(DIR) Post #AdIbem4YkWpZz3U2bY by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T10:39:49Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
You're running a conference and you receive reports of an attendee having sexually assaulted people. You have 3 choices:(1) you behave as if you believe the accusation. You make it clear that the alleged assailant is permanently banned.(2) you behave as if you don't believe the accusation. You make it clear that the alleged assailant is still welcome.(3) you choose neither, and imply that the alleged assailant is not welcome but do nothing to enforce that(3) is the worst choice here
(DIR) Post #AdIbnBcFfCLnWQFnxA by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T10:41:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Your attendees should be able to make an informed decision about how safe they'll be at your event. If you imply one outcome while allowing another you aren't giving them the information required to make that decision.
(DIR) Post #AdIby91Zdh3WfaK7Bw by kkarhan@mstdn.social
2023-12-29T10:42:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 +9001%
(DIR) Post #AdIcNFjJqSb0hql1P6 by chris@abraham.su
2023-12-29T10:49:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59Noone is safe
(DIR) Post #AdIdZUDvspVn5STS2S by solarisfire@mast.solarisfire.com
2023-12-29T11:00:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 I'd be calling the damn police...
(DIR) Post #AdIgTYPdhEKUCfoREm by SheDrivesMobility@norden.social
2023-12-29T11:33:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 🤝💜🤝
(DIR) Post #AdIh7xgx7zbcBmB8VM by xeniac@troet.cafe
2023-12-29T11:41:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 what about(4) investigate the accident, interview the participants, after that set your actions.
(DIR) Post #AdIhSwhzyiTRDlfqG8 by kenogo@chaos.social
2023-12-29T11:46:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@chris Surely safeness isn't a binary?
(DIR) Post #AdIhwj21OTLpUREtl2 by davidhaller@mastodon.de
2023-12-29T11:50:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 (4) call the police because sexual assault is a crime
(DIR) Post #AdIj2e6Yiy5DtwkTxo by djnavarro@hachyderm.io
2023-12-29T12:02:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 having been sexually assaulted at a conference I’m just going to straight up say no. 2 is considerably worse than 3
(DIR) Post #AdInh7qLyYfVXAj5u4 by WanderingTaoist@mastodon.social
2023-12-29T12:54:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59lol
(DIR) Post #AdIrnIfb2GmmfLtWXA by major@social.lol
2023-12-29T13:40:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 Do most conferences have the resources to investigate the situation fully?For example, if person A says person B assaulted them, B denies it, and there are no witnesses or history, what do you do?What if A said B did something, but B claims it was consensual?There are well funded lawyers and courts that struggle to pick apart these situations.
(DIR) Post #AdIs5ZPpVwNnoYEQl6 by zetasyanthis@dragon.style
2023-12-29T13:43:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 Sigh. I really hope this isn't #37C3.
(DIR) Post #AdItXaMbgOwAoieA4W by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-12-29T14:01:31.819660Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@major @mjg59 this. Ban him, he sues, nobody has any actual evidence against him and he has never been charged. He'll win in court and drain the conference's coffers. That's the real risk to the conference organizers IMO and my guess why they've done nothing.
(DIR) Post #AdIuKqZIDtibGS4Pqa by takao@shitposter.club
2023-12-29T14:10:44.259864Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @mjg59 @major the first question one should ask is why a person who is an alleged criminal is free to attend the convention in the first place. Was there even a conviction of is it just hearsay?Regardless of whether a crime occured or not, punishment should be left to the courts and not to private entities.
(DIR) Post #AdJ2PgVqMvlbI6Vi9w by rachel@norfolk.social
2023-12-29T15:38:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 actually my greatest worry when I’ve run CoCs at conferences before. The honestly only true resolution is going to be via the police and that absolutely requires the consent on the complainant, which might not be guaranteed. Without that police involvement, it can get legal very quickly from the accused
(DIR) Post #AdJVa9d7rZIxADGFrU by nf3xn@mastodon.social
2023-12-29T21:05:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 4. ...you award the assailant a Ph.D in Cryptography
(DIR) Post #AdJZg02SpsoiyG9iL2 by wolfram_roesler@mastodontech.de
2023-12-29T13:23:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SteveClough @mjg59 You’re violating basic human rights and basic democratic standards here, you know? In dubio pro reo. Innocent until proven guilty (by a judge) — you are demanding the opposite. Call the authorities and let them handle it, like any other offence.
(DIR) Post #AdJZg13Z3HI87xg6gy by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T21:51:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolfram_roesler @SteveClough what human right is being violated?
(DIR) Post #AdJZxZeNgbDCLDGs88 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T21:55:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@major if you're not able to investigate a situation sufficiently to come to a satisfactory conclusion that someone shouldn't be allowed at the event, don't run the event.
(DIR) Post #AdJa7pNM4fUc0aCFtI by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T21:57:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @major sues for what? Refund their attendee fee and get on with life.
(DIR) Post #AdJaDkekXATJ6o9pSK by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-12-29T21:58:37.631686Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 @major defamation?
(DIR) Post #AdJaRBAPHO9d5vMrJI by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:01:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@takao @feld @major the threshold for "does this person's attendance improve the quality of the event I'm running" shouldn't be "has been convicted of a crime" - for instance, if someone repeatedly interrupted speakers and I wouldn't want them there, despite it not being a criminal offense
(DIR) Post #AdJaaQFsYDzwUpKotM by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:01:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @major "you are not welcome at this conference" isn't defamatory.
(DIR) Post #AdJaaR8pFvwzFF2hXM by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-12-29T22:03:25.139373Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 @major yeah they're gonna have to supply a reason for why they're specifically excluding him, it's not so simple.
(DIR) Post #AdJae8mRSohvSQL4a0 by lain@lain.com
2023-12-29T22:04:19.225197Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 how can anyone make an „informed decision“ based on a ruling by people you do not know anything about, about people you don’t know anything about, in a „he said she said“ situation
(DIR) Post #AdJak8jSYVMF2tnwZs by Hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net
2023-12-29T22:05:56.605859Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Past behaviour has suggested that this person doesn't understand the concept
(DIR) Post #AdJam4zvPXpY2iQmu0 by Hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net
2023-12-29T22:06:17.322412Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Or just doesn't care
(DIR) Post #AdJaqKpQUkISIbY8Bs by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:05:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @major no they aren't, it really is that simple.
(DIR) Post #AdJavTfB4idv9CCx0K by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:07:59.607094Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
If this happened in a nation of laws – not sure where that applies – you could have them report the crime, and have them sort it out. If they won’t even report the crime then nothing happened.
(DIR) Post #AdJb1VVB9SrwaUPFLM by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:06:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lain your attendees should know whether someone is allowed to be at the event or not. They should not be left with a statement that implies one while actually the other is true.
(DIR) Post #AdJb2eoS1HTJkoy8jw by lain@lain.com
2023-12-29T22:09:03.234840Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @mjg59 it was probably Germany so that’s bad
(DIR) Post #AdJbGssAXeVzPlUYzI by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:10:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain that's a policy you can have, and it is at least a consistent one. But OJ Simpson was found innocent of murder in court, and clearly did kill his wife. Courts decide whether the power of the state should be used against someone, not whether a thing happened.
(DIR) Post #AdJbMxlTGaAEKAG2O8 by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:12:57.752176Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
That’s a choice. You either go with the rulings or have mob rule or make exceptions. Numbers always win in the end.
(DIR) Post #AdJbavWAPuU5PTl2lU by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:14:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain is it mob rule for you to refuse me entry into your home even though I've never been convicted of a crime?
(DIR) Post #AdJbawGxbvulkbePhY by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:15:28.482419Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
What does this have to do with forced organ donation farms in the US?If you don’t want a civil process just say so… a conference isn’t your house.
(DIR) Post #AdJc9cWv0OAieheW4O by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:19:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain you have a human right to choices about your body, you don't have a human right to attend a privately run event.
(DIR) Post #AdJc9dU7SHWjcJLnLU by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:21:44.731718Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I would say fuck you and not attend your convention if it was me. You’re basically making the case of no due process in a criminal act, and trying to pawn it off as a moral imperative. Didn’t Germany already do this before?
(DIR) Post #AdJcKNOTcajstfph0y by wolfram_roesler@mastodontech.de
2023-12-29T22:21:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 @SteveClough Article 11 in the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial".https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
(DIR) Post #AdJcVQ2s6TTKJ1zbwO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:23:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain you see an attendee at a conference you run shout a racist slur and punch someone. They are arrested, bailed, and released until trial. They have not yet been convicted of anything. As a conference organiser, you would allow this person to continue attending the rest of the conference?
(DIR) Post #AdJchp86fLaNZxM9Me by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:27:56.082815Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Code of conduct is a common rider, but those often need a lot of evidence more than heresay as well… as that can put the org in legal crosshairs as well. Regardless you already made up your mind.“I don’t trust all women” especially after me too and seen it be weaponized against people that never even met the alleged victim. If you let that happen people will feel like they’re fish in a barrel and stop showing up after they get the message.
(DIR) Post #AdJcq8BngdXp0Y2s7c by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:27:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolfram_roesler @SteveClough you're saying that a bar kicking out a loud drunk person is violating their human rights?
(DIR) Post #AdJdBhUTdHuEZe4AM4 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:31:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain if you agree that the threshold isn't actually criminal conviction (which it clearly isn't!) then any disagreement we have is only over whether a specific judgement call is correct, not whether that judgement call should have been made in the first place
(DIR) Post #AdJdoZP9d5d0n26weO by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:40:21.109705Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
No, I think it’s bullshit and going by heresay without a legit investigation is just going to lead to court battles and everyone ditching the event in the future. It’s pretty easy to pay someone $20 to end the event next year otherwise. In fact someone should do that and target one of the people running the event “as a joke”.This kind of stuff happens all the time and events that ran for decades are ended forever. My point was if you don’t have written documentation on how you handle this ahead of time you’re already fucked, and making a call that chooses a side without evidence or some type of trusted third party is doomed.
(DIR) Post #AdJepziFP1E6ctHiJE by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T22:45:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain when someone gets kicked out of a club for making people uncomfortable, nobody argues that the club had no right to do that and the club doesn't get sued. Based on who a club kicks out you might choose to visit a different club in future, as is your right.
(DIR) Post #AdJexSDPpQfd3LQ824 by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T22:53:10.278165Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Making poor analogies and talking around the issue is just a “muddy the waters” technique meant to make things go around in circles. That’s like the third time…
(DIR) Post #AdJfkg8eqoJGQOfQLA by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T23:00:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain I'm demonstrating that there's no reason to believe it'll result in court battles or everyone ditching an event.
(DIR) Post #AdJfkh45PIFNIVXHqy by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T23:02:03.376256Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
That’s where you’re very wrong as getting kicked out of a conference ties into job viability more often than not.
(DIR) Post #AdJgfQTBmP4CKpKUlM by __Styx__@piaille.fr
2023-12-29T23:04:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 I believe in (1) they can even ban permanently ** until culpability is proven false by local justice systemThus giving the "If the attendee is confident in his innocence, he'll come back later when everything is sorted through"If they can't even choose this it's underwhelming to me
(DIR) Post #AdJglIdNpDVHlqtmBk by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T23:05:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain that doesn't mean there's an actionable claim
(DIR) Post #AdJglJQItKdSDZmqRM by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2023-12-29T23:13:22.484990Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
That’s a good one.
(DIR) Post #AdJiOBaU3gnPACeHa4 by wolfram_roesler@mastodontech.de
2023-12-29T23:29:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 @SteveClough Moving the goalposts? I was under the impression that the discussion is about alleged sexual abuse in absence of obvious evidence. If you watch someone with his hands on the wrong butt, feel free to beat the crap out of him, but that's not what OP was talking about.
(DIR) Post #AdJiZooaYHU40jnEAK by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T23:30:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolfram_roesler @SteveClough why are you beating someone who's entitled to the presumption of innocence? They haven't been found guilty.
(DIR) Post #AdJjXTvZL7wsbYVX60 by wolfram_roesler@mastodontech.de
2023-12-29T23:42:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 @SteveClough Yes, you're moving the goalposts. That's not what I was talking about. Goodbye, troll.
(DIR) Post #AdJkRnL8Ltgn1mJk7E by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-12-29T23:53:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolfram_roesler @SteveClough You asserted that it was a violation of someone's human rights to exclude them from a conference if they hadn't been convicted. But you've also said you think it's fine to beat someone who hasn't been convicted. You haven't explained why you think there's a difference between these two scenarios.
(DIR) Post #AdKx6lFKQz2x10rY6C by etchedpixels@mastodon.social
2023-12-30T13:49:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 1 Gets you bankrupted for defamation, and if you were not planning ahead in your T&C breach of contract (and possibly even then under fair contract regs) 2 gets you blacklisted. So there is enormous pressure on events to do the worst thing.Option 1 is also complex. Someone accuses every attendee of abusive behaviour do you ban everyone for life? If they accuse 1, 10, 50 ? Safeguarding is hard and much best practice doesn't appear to be carried over from places it's well established
(DIR) Post #AdO4VhqlTqqGsK5wW0 by spv@mastodon.spv.sh
2024-01-01T01:56:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjg59 @thendrix @lain i love the oj exampleowned some con who was like "but trump can't be prevented from the ballot because hje was never convicted" and i was like "well oj was never convicted either, tell that to ron goldman" and it was greaaaaaaat
(DIR) Post #AdO5xEitT1qwbO6XQ0 by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2024-01-01T02:14:30.770250Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Hope the mob takes you to live out your dream. You one of the people saying burn it down in 2020 until it came to your house too?
(DIR) Post #AdO6CHlIS39CN1P8CG by spv@mastodon.spv.sh
2024-01-01T02:15:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thendrix @lain @mjg59 no, actually in 2020 i was an ignorant, uninformed 13-year old racist who made a fool of himself and then learned a thing or two about the world. if you're lucky maybe that'll happen to you too one day.
(DIR) Post #AdO6CITbnIaoaS8WGW by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2024-01-01T02:17:13.450653Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Yeah, you’re human waste. Thanks for admitting it.