Post AdJMdcLIfTSPUlV3IW by newt@stereophonic.space
(DIR) More posts by newt@stereophonic.space
(DIR) Post #AdHphkWYASkUFYve5o by mmu_man@m.g3l.org
2023-12-29T01:43:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nytpu so, it will never work with my CGA card? 😞
(DIR) Post #AdIRaac8PWpDkJYP20 by mjdxp@0w0.is
2023-12-29T02:31:51.693200Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nytpu ah yes, wayland is so much easier for developers!**as long as you're not trying to write a compositor on your own (which was completely realistic with xorg but no longer is for wayland), trying to port over large projects like desktop environments, using an operating system that doesn't have wayland like openBSD, making an app that uses keybindings, etc etc
(DIR) Post #AdIRabHFwdibnqnF7w by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2023-12-29T08:44:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mjdxp @nytpu it's easier for former Xorg developers
(DIR) Post #AdIRac238f9I8ygc40 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T08:48:37.077787Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @mjdxp @nytpu somewhat curious how making an X server is feasible while a Wayland compositor is not. there is exactly one X server in common use and like 4 wayland compositors :blobcatgoogly:
(DIR) Post #AdISDVXdCjz9J70NWK by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T08:55:25.292136Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu tbh it's more like three. GNOME, KDE, and the wlroots crowd. Thr latter two are mostly in sync. I suppose, the only reason KDE people have their own implementation is because it predates wlroots. GNOME on the other hand...I suppose, the only reason for this push to adopt Wayland is because Red Hat wants GNOME to be a completely separate desktop system.Red Hat: fucking up your L'Eunuchs system since 1995
(DIR) Post #AdISPvmpS3f8BE2O6y by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T08:57:55.882237Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu x has unfixable issues when it comes to process isolation. some of the early pros to wayland is actually being able to stop every program from becoming a keylogger.problem is .. idk. i don't honestly know wwhy the wayland devs are all morons. is the problem of splat textures together that insurmountable or is it truly the biggest brain trust who ever lived working on it?
(DIR) Post #AdImStxigmSETRpFFg by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T12:42:34.568918Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @wolf480pl @mjdxp @nytpu The issue is that in Wayland you cannot just write a window manager for your preferred working style, and you cannot just write a "compositor" in the X11 sense for some wobbly windows special effects. In Wayland, the parts window manager, compositor, and server all go in a single process.wlroots kinda helps there though.
(DIR) Post #AdIme8KTc4D0DZpFLs by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T12:44:36.786850Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@icedquinn @newt @mjdxp @nytpu @wolf480pl They cannot agree on simple things and bikeshed on everything forever.Which is why screen locking is still unsolved on Wayland, with multiple competing half implementations for specific DEs and decades old bugs with discussions.For the time being, using Linux means instead of relying on Wayland works - see physlock.
(DIR) Post #AdIn3j7vwA8vaFA8dE by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T12:49:13.819964Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @newt @mjdxp @nytpu @wolf480pl Also, screen recording on Wayland is unsolved too. Maybe 5 people on this earth could get this to work with pipewire, but I am not among them. It can't be hard but it just never works, best I ever got was succeeding at video and failing at sound.But admittedly screen recording is a shitshow on X11 too - either very low fps, or you actually hook a library into the to be recorded program to capture at OpenGL level.
(DIR) Post #AdInNWDhdOotLSIZTU by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T12:52:35.421610Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu >x has unfixable issues when it comes to process isolation. some of the early pros to wayland is actually being able to stop every program from becoming a keylogger.Yeah, no. It is not unfixable. It's just that Xorg devs decided that "fuck you we aren't gonna fix it". On the other hand, any program can become a keylogger by writing "LD_LIBRARY_PRELOAD=..." into your ~/.profile, because Linux has unfixable issues with filesystem access.
(DIR) Post #AdJL0fRx56n1stTUCO by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T19:09:38.103877Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@divVerent @mjdxp @newt @nytpu @wolf480pl I don't see why the compositor can't turn around and outsource the job to a subprocess. That's how X did it.
(DIR) Post #AdJLENgBwpEepCfrP6 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T19:12:07.295430Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu > FilesystemThere are numerous sandbox solutions to prevent that one. Flatpal's bubble wrap, fire jail, LSMs. X negates much of it.ESGHat wants Wayland and Flatpak to seal up those vulnerabilities. Especially on top of the immutable distros it becomes significantly more difficult enact chicanery.
(DIR) Post #AdJMdcLIfTSPUlV3IW by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T19:27:37.246736Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu of course there are. How many of them work reliably and transparently with user software? None.
(DIR) Post #AdJO0ty5P0vQm5JBGy by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T19:43:17.927726Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu I use several Flatpak programs. About the same level of bees as the Mac App Store, but a little better because you can use flatseal to work around some issues.
(DIR) Post #AdJOCl5GGAOAhBJn04 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T19:45:26.696295Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @nytpu @wolf480pl there is supposed to be a portal interface to make drag & drop and file browsers work, where it would automatically open holes on specific files through an interface to do so. Most people haven't implemented it though.That's also how Android works, but Google has a position to force people to support it.
(DIR) Post #AdJOP7ckHYJi4qsLXU by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T19:47:15.678692Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu that's cool and all, but..* Most flatpaks just set filesystem access to either /home or all* L'Eunuchs kernel is a fucking security disaster, with a new local privilege escalation exploit every couple of weeks* Adding insult to injury, many flatpaks ship outdated vulnerable libraries or other componentsI'm not saying that ideas behind Flatpak aren't sound, because they are. I'm saying that Flatpak (and Wayland) are just garbage and were implemented by retards and morons. At this point, I wouldn't expect anything else from Red Hat.
(DIR) Post #AdJOpN3bWZXJTIxGmu by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T19:52:24.666643Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu :blobcatgendou: I see your goalpost move from "doesn't exist" to "configured it wrong" and disqualify it.
(DIR) Post #AdJP5x9r4PM84NmmFk by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T19:55:09.735361Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu it's not the configuration, it's the overall design that is a problem. It fails to solve the security issues miserably while adding a tonne of nuissanse of its own.I mean, why stop at flatpaks. You could say that all Eunuchs have filesystem isolation in the form of chroot(). This would sound ridiculous, but there are people actually claiming exactly this.
(DIR) Post #AdJPRtxVe3AAWDTdSq by idiot@shitposter.club
2023-12-29T19:59:23.814510Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nytpu >Entire problem with screen tearing is a low-end hardware problem>Fast enough graphics cards with fast enough monitors can just brute force frames and you never see tearing>Wayland mandates vsync because tearing is...... LE BAD!>Doesn't run well on low-end hardware
(DIR) Post #AdJPcg05sk90Pfp8Ea by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:01:19.947517Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu it's not a security systems fault you told it to let everyone in your house. Disqualified. :blobcatgendou:
(DIR) Post #AdJQzb4kSVEpklUgxE by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:16:41.628588Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @newt @nytpu @wolf480pl It _can_, but it _doesn't_. Basically, on X11 it was outsourced by default (but X servers with builtin window managers exist).And that is why it is currently in practice harder to have custom window management on Wayland. Wayland was MEANT to bring forth GNOME world domination, alternate compositors were seen as a bad thing to happen (see also: client side decorations, which could only work well in a single-DE environment).But indeed - someone definitely could make a "W server" that outsources window management and decoration to a subprocess with a clearly defined protocol. No such protocol has been defined yet though, so there we are. wlroots, being a library and not a protocol, comes closest.
(DIR) Post #AdJRB89PpGoPWIB0zo by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:18:45.214890Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@divVerent @mjdxp @newt @nytpu @wolf480pl I thought client side decorations had something to do with the compositor trying to stay out of some crosscutting concerns
(DIR) Post #AdJRQizx6uoi8yBc00 by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:21:35.748107Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @newt @nytpu @wolf480pl Yeah, the point was to allow applications to put stuff in the title bar.But thing is: they _shouldn't_.
(DIR) Post #AdJS9BJlBGECiUeLVA by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:29:35.939152Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nytpu @mjdxp @divVerent @wolf480pl @newt i thought it was neat that they put buttons up there, but i've come to hate it if they do more than one or two.makes the fucking drag handle hazardous to actually drag.
(DIR) Post #AdJSB7FfGkFogXelmK by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:29:57.956395Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nytpu @mjdxp @divVerent @wolf480pl @newt so just usual gnome/redhat retardation
(DIR) Post #AdJU4YpCYPvI5DHSWe by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:51:11.173339Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @nytpu @mjdxp @newt @wolf480pl Chrome does it for a while on X11 already, using title bar space as tab bar. I hate it (and turned it off).Adding extra icons for e.g. sound muting is nice though, but that should IMHO be drawn by the compositor and be requested declaratively by the application (or even not requested at all, but the app should request sound access and that should auto add the icon).
(DIR) Post #AdJUG5isa2hrIep0RE by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:53:16.656726Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nytpu @icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @newt Which is dumb, because the decorations are not what the app developer wants - they are what the end user wants to deal with the window.Special snowflake applications putting their close button in the other corner should be actively prevented, not encouraged.
(DIR) Post #AdJUZMuCv4oe5qJQVE by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:56:44.866138Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@divVerent @mjdxp @newt @nytpu @wolf480pl i suspect there are ways to get custom titlebar elements and that there would be an element of nontriviality to them.in a general sense this is not the compositor's problem. all a compositor is supposed to do is stack image sandwiches on top of one another. so window decorations are mostly a case of asking for a texture sheet, writing to it, and doling out rectangles from the sheet "somewhere."
(DIR) Post #AdJUc7L1FvH2gEAEtc by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:57:16.215006Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @mjdxp @icedquinn @wolf480pl @nytpu These Linux issues are definitely fixable, which is precisely what happens on Android.The two ways to fix it are either namespaces (see also: flatpak, snap), or a separate system user ID for every app/user combination.The usual desktop Linux experience is a desktop OS where each application acts on behalf of the user. Only because of this you can even go and rm, mv, etc. around in your home dir.But it does not have to be that way, as the above examples show.
(DIR) Post #AdJUlNSIhW9vH1z9w8 by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T20:58:38.581268Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @wolf480pl @nytpu yeah, that's why I think Windows is a much better OS. You just need to configure it properly.
(DIR) Post #AdJUngLrPsyYST4XFg by divVerent@blob.cat
2023-12-29T20:59:21.621239Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @newt @nytpu @wolf480pl The point is, in Wayland's design it has to he the compositor's problem, because the compositor process houses the window manager and window management controls are there. Plus, consistency rules and can only be achieved by _some_ system component doing decorations (and because static linking exists, it cannot be a client side library).All for splitting compositor into parts though.
(DIR) Post #AdJUs3EoGfMKb4rEO0 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-12-29T21:00:07.571372Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@divVerent @newt @mjdxp @nytpu @wolf480pl android and ios have a restricted paradigm of a single program holding the window and input system.
(DIR) Post #AdJVryxuFlUzIeTxAG by newt@stereophonic.space
2023-12-29T21:11:06.181220Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @mjdxp @divVerent @wolf480pl @nytpu no, both have limited window management. You can connect your android phone to a larger screen.