Post Ad6L3sGmocb3KH4ATY by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
(DIR) More posts by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
(DIR) Post #Ad4jBXlew0m8dlmDwm by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-22T17:59:50Z
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@lettosprey @scottsantens That sort of undermines the *universal*, doesn't it? UBI would be identical and require very little administration. Those who have special needs - for whatever reason - must have additional arrangements.There's another advantage to making things universal, in addition to the lower administration effort. It helps on the tax morale for most people. When you know that if you, or your aunt, or your kids, will be taken care of if need be, you pay your tax with a smile :-)
(DIR) Post #Ad4jG0uQWtNSBB0dZQ by scottsantens@hachyderm.io
2023-12-22T13:05:35Z
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It's so much easier to hate when you're constantly stressed out and barely scraping by. Seeing others get help while you don't only then makes it all worse.This is why UNIVERSAL basic income is so important. It makes sure no one feels unseen and on their own.E pluribus unum.#basicincome #ubi
(DIR) Post #Ad4jG20URpozaGqzey by scottsantens@hachyderm.io
2023-12-22T13:28:54Z
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There is data behind this too. When you are right on the other side of an arbitrarily drawn line that says you don't need any help, when you definitely do, that can destroy your faith in government.Many Americans live on that dangerous side of the line.https://www.scottsantens.com/should-we-provide-emergency-universal-basic-income-to-everyone-or-just-those-who-need-it/
(DIR) Post #Ad4t2DZ1gJbkun3koq by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-22T19:50:13Z
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@lettosprey @scottsantens 1/2 I don't think you understood what I meant. Universal basic income is “easy” to introduce because those against it can't argue that one has to define clear rules for who gets what etc.I'm addition to that there must be arrangements for those with specific needs. It's easier to define separate and targeted support with criteria for who gets them than it is to include all the rules and criteria into UBI. Keeping it simple makes it more transparent as well.
(DIR) Post #Ad4tWOtG8QVYjLupcG by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-22T19:55:40Z
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@lettosprey @scottsantens 2/2Tax morale matters. If I'm asked to pay 40% of my salary in tax I will be less happy to do that if my family and children are excluded from receiving any help on the account that we are too well off. This is one of the problems in USA, the attitude that those who pay most taxes should be excluded from receiving money from government. Essentially, in USA they're asking the rich neighbours to pay for the whole cake, but saying no when they ask if they can taste it.
(DIR) Post #Ad5d73ecY643WHvFVw by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T04:26:31Z
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@lettosprey Well, *I* still believe the effort to check some applications against a small set of rules is less than the effort to check all applications against a large set of rules.Seeing that some people need extra help is not the same as seeing them as problematic, at least not in my world. Many of us are in that category, at least at some point in life.Regarding tax morale: Why should "rich" families, for instance, not get a student loan or child support?Can you define "rich"?
(DIR) Post #Ad5dtUrYgtk9o24U6K by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T04:35:16Z
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@lettosprey UBI should be a no-brainer for a majority of the population, but it will never get support from a majority of the population as long as some people, like you, insist that it shouldn't be universal.
(DIR) Post #Ad67fUrAukoQME8GQK by bjoernstaerk@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T10:08:53Z
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@kjetil_kilhavn @lettosprey yes it needs to be universal in order to avoid the whole "now let's decide who deserves it" debate, which is destructive to any welfare system. you do also need means tested benefits though, on top of this, and there _is_ a hope among libertarians that UBI can be used as a tool to dismantle welfare states with. hand out some money, fire the bureaucrats and let everyone fend for themselves.
(DIR) Post #Ad6JPb6F8NS4XKMiBs by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T12:20:29Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk I on the other hand have no issue with the monthly child support even if I am sure my family could get by without it. Nor the fact that my family and I can benefit from public health care. But if you're so strongly against this «setup» that you never use public health care, pay extra voluntary tax equal to the amount you receive in child support and will send your kids to private schools and university that's your choice. Good for you, and I am not going to stop you.
(DIR) Post #Ad6KrQTsJAMDfJFihE by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T12:36:43Z
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@lettosprey If the government gives me 25 NOK in child support and asks me to pay 350 NOK in tax, have they really filled up my pockets?Now, if the government gives me and everyone else in Norway 100 NOK as basic income but also asks me to pay a tax of 455 NOK instead of 350 NOK, have they really just given me more money to fill up my pockets?The introduction of UBI can't be a separate discussion, it must be part of a larger reform - including more meaningful tasks for many NAV employees.
(DIR) Post #Ad6L3sGmocb3KH4ATY by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T12:38:58Z
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@lettosprey When did I write that it was unfair that people who need extra help get extra help?
(DIR) Post #Ad6LnINuZFVvLq3cXY by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T12:47:11Z
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@lettosprey .My argument was that with UBI covering the basic needs, other support could hopefully have simpler rules. If the rules are 'simple' people can understand why they don't qualify and someone else does.One of the problems with our current social security system is that the rules are complex and sometimes seemingly random and stupid. For instance, why does there have to be a deadline for applying for parental leave money? A deadline which is not related to when you take leave.
(DIR) Post #Ad6MjgieFb2fcRbIRc by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T12:57:44Z
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@lettosprey I guess anything and anyone who is not aligned with your view seem bizarre. Good luck with that.
(DIR) Post #Ad6NR5fVMiTNRxpHeK by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T13:05:34Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk Of course I go to the doctor every month just because it is available. In fact I go there twice a week just to make sure I get my tax money back.Good for you that you're OK with paying more than others. How much do you think a system deciding what each of us should pay after visiting a doctor would cost? Should it be based on your income last year, last month or next month? Should it factor in the number of pets and children? Whether you are divorced? Smoker? Drinker?
(DIR) Post #Ad6OuD8YmBFcxvrkiO by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T13:22:02Z
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@lettosprey Perhaps you just need to get out more and see that the world isn't only about you? In fact the world is mostly not about you. In fact there are poor people in India and other countries who need the money more than your friend, so we should stop giving her money and send it to those who need it more. Right? That's logic to you, isn't it, because the money should only go to those who need it most?
(DIR) Post #Ad6PLkDXtMVbNiKKye by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T13:27:01Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk Facts probably don't bite on you, but facts show that since Alaska started paying everyone an annual amount of 1000 to 2000 USD the inflation there has been lower than in the rest of USA. Employment has increased. Health in the population has improved. You can read more about the positive effects from UBI on the web site of the original poster.You're assuming that people will not be willing to pay more tax. That assumption is perhaps your largest problem.
(DIR) Post #Ad6RpJJQglQWX5IyUi by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T13:54:46Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk As I expected you haven't read anything.
(DIR) Post #Ad6RwN7suKRaO7GwJE by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T13:56:03Z
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@lettosprey As far as I recall it wasn't me who was arguing against UBI. In fact, it was you.
(DIR) Post #Ad6SFdCnLjpFl6kijQ by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T13:59:31Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk You cannot look at statistics from another country and assume it will apply here. Correct. But can you conclude that it will not apply, like you have?Since I am not so selfish that I only care about my close friend it matters to me that UBI could help on average. But then again, that's me - saint-like and all.
(DIR) Post #Ad6Sej9ONneTR97ySG by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T14:04:04Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk So now it matters what the source of the tax income is too? Ran out of other arguments?
(DIR) Post #Ad6TKvyD6sgPMJ1UrA by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T14:11:41Z
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@lettosprey Well, if you have paid any attention at all I think it is important that tax payer morale is high. Otherwise, people will try to avoid paying taxes.It is *you* who keep insisting that only those who need it most must receive anything. Is there anything else you have repeatedly stated that you want me to explain to you?
(DIR) Post #Ad6Tr0e7GDRF7xv2B6 by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T14:17:29Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk So you don't want tax money from oil. Probably not weapons either. And you dislike private health care and schools, so they are gone too. I am sure there are others you dislike as well. Tell me, how do you plan to get enough money in to finance your grand plans for you and your friend?I believe that as long as there is oil and gas activity (how long is a different discussion) they should pay taxes. If you want to let them keep all the money you are in a minority.
(DIR) Post #Ad6W7rzKu2PN6i0nCK by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-12-23T14:42:57Z
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@lettosprey @bjoernstaerk I feel special.