Post Ad4U3tqDU2DPTGo01o by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
(DIR) More posts by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
(DIR) Post #Ad4ITXz8ATe5lSREUy by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-21T13:02:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Capitalism creates socioeconomic inequality by concentrating wealth and power among a select few, perpetuates systemic oppression, inherently exploits labor which leads to alienation and a lack of worker autonomy, prioritizes profit over social needs, and exacerbates environmental degradation and resource depletion. We aren't the problem. Capitalism is the problem.#capitalism #inequality #exploitation #anticapitalism
(DIR) Post #Ad4ITYkzIXvW9spS5o by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T11:56:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom But you still could have free markets without capitalism, which equals the state supporting the concentration of wealth rather than the other way around.The state matters. It’s bad when it stifles the market (communism), it’s bad when it lets markets run rampant (capitalism).
(DIR) Post #Ad4ITZdw0FsYuIXKjo by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T12:16:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gimulnautti Even in a free market without capitalism, the absence of a state does not guarantee the elimination of power imbalances and exploitation. Without a robust framework promoting egalitarian principles, market dynamics could still lead to disparities in wealth and influence, favoring certain individuals or groups. We need a classless, decentralized society where collective ownership and cooperation replace market-driven forces that are inherently prone to inequality.
(DIR) Post #Ad4ITaJPW33WyvwSO0 by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T12:18:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gimulnautti Also, communism is not "the state stifling the market". You're thinking of state socialist countries like the Soviet Union of China, which had capitalist economies and never achieved communism. A communist society wouldn't have a state.
(DIR) Post #Ad4ITb9WOIjvaYK4bw by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T12:31:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom A free market is still the best way to optimise production and allocate resources to it. It is impossible to arrive at an optimal solution via pre-planning. You lose the capability of reacting to change in externalities.Marx has to be credited though, he was the first to vision that society could be run through science & research only and thrive. His critique of elite power via capital was great, but he also missed important things like automation adding value.
(DIR) Post #Ad4ITbzzFEhuDGryO8 by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T12:57:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
There are two issues with what you stated:1. You did not specify the optimisation criteria.2. You assume false dichotomy between the market and central planning.Ad 1. The market as we know it is now driven by the function of maximum profit (for whom, it depends of the level, but eventually it is about maximising ownership rent). Thus, we may (and certainly do) experience conflicts of interests between various groups. "What is good for General Motors, is good for the USA" did not age well.ad 2. Centralised pre-planning is ideed very well within "market economy". All major players (corporate and govermental) plan ahead and put quite an effort to shape reality according to their plans. The core of capitalism - financial markets - are funded on planning both in terms of acquisitions, fusions in real economy and regarding futures, options and other derivatives. Let alone simple act of lending money.
(DIR) Post #Ad4MsyYiu2hLErT1VI by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T08:57:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom You can replace capitalism with socialism (and replace "profit" with "personal needs of elites") and it will still be true.
(DIR) Post #Ad4MszhGfl7wleTMSe by pleaseclap@urbanists.social
2023-12-22T13:27:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older @Radical_EgoCom That wouldn't be true, because although there have been corrupt and despotic countries that describe themselves as socialist, that's not a socialist value.Which contrasts sharply with capitalism, where the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few isn't merely permissible by the value system, it's the explicit goal and the fundamental ideal
(DIR) Post #Ad4Mt0gF13trol03V2 by pleaseclap@urbanists.social
2023-12-22T13:32:23Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@older @Radical_EgoCom If the situation of the USSR being both a global totem for socialism and also counter-revolutionary is confusing,consider that the world's foremost capitalist nation identifies with the phrase "freedom and liberty for all"
(DIR) Post #Ad4N86uS8dQHTsqcbI by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T13:51:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
You lose the capability of reacting to change in externalities.Hmmm... #ClimateChange #COP28
(DIR) Post #Ad4NolFoWpWolnB0yW by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T13:59:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Yeah, I know. I am just being nice. ;-)
(DIR) Post #Ad4U3tqDU2DPTGo01o by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T15:06:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
#Capitalism #Cannibalism
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn5I2ADvDpIcNUG by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T14:01:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @8petros @Radical_EgoCom Hey, thanks for engaging. I love an honest political debate!Yes. 1. Is the critical turnpike. The optimisation crititeria is the sole driver for what the market does. This is where the crux between central planning and free market’s optimisation capabilities is: Just the right amount of indirect control of what becomes profitable.The trick is to not believe either extreme is the final solution, those don’t exist.
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn6czBoH9yZQcme by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T14:16:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gimulnautti @8petros The very concept of a market, with its inherent profit-driven optimization criteria, is inherently flawed. Both central planning and the free market perpetuate inequality and fail to address the fundamental issues in the current socio-economic system. A more radical departure from the existing structures is needed rather than seeking a balance between two flawed systems.
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn7WdqsnMlBT4XA by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T14:26:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom @gimulnautti @8petros Markets existed before money; barter, exchange and service were all ways of buying and selling.
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn7bxX7351fxJp2 by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T14:06:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @Radical_EgoCom And 2. i hope to have answered. Your assumption was wrong.You don’t know me, and i’m just a random guy on the internet, so it’s easy to make mistakes.But i’m no neoliberal. I’m a hard-center democratic pragmatist. There is no dichotomy between central planning and the markets.Perhaps I am using terms you consider are words of the enemy. Hopefully I have cleared your suspicion by now.
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn8EbDRxOxW2B3A by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T14:33:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@simon_lucy @gimulnautti @8petros While historical forms of exchange existed, they often operated within communal or cooperative frameworks. The transition to money and market systems has led to inequalities, exploitation, and class divisions. Such structures, like the private ownership of the means of production and the accumulation of capital, undermine the principles of equality and solidarity.
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn8pT0NRonrHcW0 by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T15:20:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom @gimulnautti @8petros And at the same time powered societies to work collectively and individually, to develop communication, technology and all the other steps that the human population went through. Packaging all the evils, labelling them and putting them in a box, kicking them into the sea is all well and good but you've kicked everything else in as well.
(DIR) Post #Ad4Yn9bK8RjFCHfq6q by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T15:27:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@simon_lucy @gimulnautti @8petros While capitalism has contributed to technological advancements, it has also perpetuated inequality, exploitation, and environmental degradation. An alternative system, such as a stateless, classless society based on common ownership and cooperation, could achieve progress without the negative consequences associated with capitalism.
(DIR) Post #Ad4YnAFjiC3TDca76G by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T15:41:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom @gimulnautti @8petros Capitalism isn't really a thing. It's used as a crutch to fulminate against all that's bad. We have some terrible practices we've distorted much that makes sense.I would destroy Stock Markets of all kinds but capital would still need to be raised and companies formed, cooperatives assembled and there need to be mechanisms for that. How surpluses are managed is an important thing and so are taxes but neither are evil.
(DIR) Post #Ad4YnAyl0o4FTFe4H2 by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T16:02:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Capitalism is built upon the ownership rent. Resources that are gathered are not capital, as long as there is no owner / landlord / investor who expect to be paid just because they own something. This is called also passive income, which conveniently is self-explaining. The epitome of capitalism is "money makes money".Cooperatives, by design, do not provide dividend. Resources are pooled, but the surplus (and voting power) are redistribute either equally, or on the involvement basis - not according to "capital" share.And yes, capitalism is the thing. From the root I mentioned, the whole ideology emerged. We need to talk about it and analyse it, so we know how to change.Not Talking About Capitalism - comic by Stuart McMillen about capitalism
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYupx1w4AzDEmGW by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T11:35:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older While it's true that certain implementations of socialism have fallen into the trap of prioritizing the personal needs of elites, the core principles of Anarcho-Communism aim to eliminate hierarchical structures and ensure collective decision-making, making it less prone to such deviations. The emphasis is on common ownership and egalitarian distribution of resources, with the ultimate goal of meeting the needs of all individuals rather than serving elite interests.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYvfLwpBPYdHpNw by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T11:40:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom Your use of a word "certain" implies that there are implementations of socialism which have not fallen into this trap, do you have any examples?
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYwONFRCBoGLmYi by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T12:09:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older One example is the Soviet Union, where the bureaucratic class enjoyed privileges at the expense of the working class, leading to a concentration of power and wealth among a select few. Similarly, there is China with its market reforms, where the Communist Party's ties with the business elite contradicted socialist principles, emphasizing the concentration of wealth and power.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYxJnnv8IgNDe4W by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T12:17:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom I'd like to see any examples of the opposite. Implementations where there's no concentration of power in one hands and where the power is not handed over from one to the next generation in the same family.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYy8UlRgNDaw85Q by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T12:25:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older There are instances, such as the Spanish Revolution of 1936, where worker self-management and collective decision-making were emphasized. There are also contemporary examples of horizontally organized cooperatives and communal structures, like the Mondragon Corporation in Spain, a federation of worker cooperatives that operates on principles of worker self-management and solidarity, or the Rojava region in northern Syria, where a form of democratic confederalism has been implemented.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYyhwde2SzXWRLE by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T16:42:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom No, these are not instances. None of these examples are states. And the same things were emphasized when the Soviet Union was created and look where it ended up.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gYzN4Akvr34lHRA by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T16:55:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older Why do you think I'd give you examples of states? I'm an anarchist. I provided you with examples to show that it's possible to have workers collectively control production and decision making without it turning hierarchical. And the Soviet Union did not do the same thing. As I previously stated the Soviet Union devolved into authoritarianism due to its hierarchical nature, but the examples I provided were non-hierarchal and some decentralized.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gZ02XgY6p7iAP5M by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T17:08:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom None of these examples has anything to do with anarchy (or communism of any degree). Failed attempts to achieve some declared targets do not count either.Everything that is wrong with capitalism is very well known but every attempted solution ends up even worse in reality so far.
(DIR) Post #Ad4gZ0epOCjZ2S4ylE by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T17:27:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
This is the same kind of conversation that was happening long time ago between staunch feudalists and early proponents of capitalism. :-)
(DIR) Post #Ad4hyN9wxrim1MIJCS by Benaresh@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T12:22:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older @Radical_EgoCom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative
(DIR) Post #Ad4hyNzhrR7absVds8 by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T16:46:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BenareshGood example of what is possible in a capitalist country. Not an example I was asking about though.@Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #Ad4hyOseZ94dMIDWW8 by Benaresh@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T17:16:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@older @Radical_EgoCom Currently Rojava exists and is stately inspired by Bookchin. Its an Anarchist state that exists despite Autocratic regimes attempts to destroy them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria
(DIR) Post #Ad4hyPkBM7tM2JGGx6 by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T17:22:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BenareshSeriously? Rojava is your example of successful implementation of socialism?@Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #Ad4hyQVgVVtCPdUCzg by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T17:45:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
And why exactly not?
(DIR) Post #Ad4iiVgRbX4jmLUduq by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T17:54:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
To be precise:- Rojava is not state;- neither it is anachist, while it is supported by many anarchists;- Rojava founding doctrine is apoism, which, while it certainly is informed by bookchinism and anarchism (among many other ideologies), is genuine local phenomenon, culturally very Kurdish.Please accept this perspective from the translator of "Democratic Confederalism", who spent many months with Kurdish friends, watching their praxis and listening to their ideological reflection.
(DIR) Post #Ad4iyuI9sYvsjWx6ky by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T17:49:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petrosBecause it is neither successful nor socialism.@Benaresh @Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #Ad4iyv2b5u4z3YgC8m by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T17:56:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Successful so far - against so many odds. And socialism indeed. The term is spacious enough to contain many varieties.Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Socialism
(DIR) Post #Ad4k2yUAKSJCqu4X8i by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T18:04:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petrosWe must have quite different definitions of success. In my view just the fact that something exists doesn't mean that it is successful.@Benaresh @Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #Ad4k2zG1SWadFKSkjY by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T18:09:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Well, such is a nature of Internet conversations. Very rarely people think of setting common terminology conventions beforehand.Now is a good moment, I believe, to ask you:Do you consider capitalism successful? And if so, why? Beyond the fact it exists, of course.
(DIR) Post #Ad4kFMw3Fcwm9n1eEK by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T15:55:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@simon_lucy @gimulnautti @8petros Capitalism's inherent flaws, rooted in exploitation, persist even with stock market dismantling. A radical shift to collective ownership and abolishing private property is vital. Merely addressing distortions is temporary; the focus should be on a creating a classless, stateless society with equitable resource sharing through common ownership of the means of production.
(DIR) Post #Ad4kFNeMasOONDl2Ia by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T18:08:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom @gimulnautti @8petros As I said Capitalism is not a thing. It's a Shibboleth.
(DIR) Post #Ad4kFONNtUPAcqozTM by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T18:11:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Capitalism is a - relatively simple - socioeconomic ideology. Pretty viral at that. You may say it is a teapot, but it doesn't change reality.
(DIR) Post #Ad4kaCCKMs3Ww7ZNKq by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T17:23:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @8petros @simon_lucy @Radical_EgoCom Yeah. It’s great to talk about capitalism. Talking about things demystifies them, and surprisingly often people dont want to talk about an issue because they DON’T want an explanation for itThey would rather build their dreams and hopes around an issue that they want to believe in and cannot explainMost of us want to have a god & faith. This is equally true of neoliberalism & capitalism
(DIR) Post #Ad4kaCwlaDCdG9ISie by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T18:14:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Most of us want to have a god & faith. This is equally true of neoliberalism & capitalismAny sources?
(DIR) Post #Ad4lIA6DX0uTAZfzH6 by older@mstdn.social
2023-12-22T18:16:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petrosI consider scandinavian model successful. It is not perfect but is is working better than anything else so far. People are happier and living better lives.@Benaresh @Radical_EgoCom
(DIR) Post #Ad4lIApwmzUPSP4VYO by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T18:22:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
The we do not share the definition of success, indeed.
(DIR) Post #Ad4okCfTsFv36iEWZs by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T18:11:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@simon_lucy @gimulnautti @8petros Capitalism - an economic system characterized by private ownership of the means of production, profit-driven enterprises, and market-based allocation of resources. In a capitalist system, individuals and businesses operate for their own self-interest within a competitive market, with minimal government intervention.☝️ Definition of CapitalismStop saying it isn't real.
(DIR) Post #Ad4okDbGPQ8jzvGfdw by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T18:30:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom @gimulnautti @8petros You can label it anyway you like but it isn't an ideology.It doesn't require private property to decide how surpluses are used and distribute and to decide how to 'invest' some of the yield or save it, it requires some kind of control but that ownership might be expressed as shared or held in trust but the processes are exactly the same.
(DIR) Post #Ad4okEOBTXGuRe9jtY by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T19:01:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
You will forgive me, I hope, that, in this respect, I trust Stanford University (and several actually capitalist sources) more than a random worshipper from the net.
(DIR) Post #Ad4ov1jwqPBmOsU4CO by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T18:22:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @8petros @simon_lucy @Radical_EgoCom You seem to be engaging me as the enemy here. Instead of trying to have a conversation, you seek to fight.You still don’t want to see that I’m on your side.It you can’t fathom faith-based eoliberalism and capitalism is in the same vein to what you’re saying, perhaps we have nothing further to say. This confrontational anger, is the rot that takes the left down time & again.
(DIR) Post #Ad4ov2O0RTEQP7E3dY by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T19:03:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Nice try. :-) Well, I can totally live long and happy life without further contact with you. Have fun.
(DIR) Post #Ad4pPdJJire3bucbCK by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T18:23:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @gimulnautti @Radical_EgoComIt isn't an ideology, it isn't a single thing and doesn't have a single cause. Resources were captured, managed and maintained long before there was fiat. There was no rent, there were mutual responsibilities and fealties. Surpluses of grain, goods were shared and distributed but they were also controlled and traded. Frequently traded in the name of whoever had control.That isn't an ideology.
(DIR) Post #Ad4pPe7ehhuY82Aney by Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T18:25:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@simon_lucy @8petros @gimulnautti Capitalism is not just an economic system but an ideology shaping values, power relations, and societal norms. It influences individual behavior, cultural beliefs, and global interactions, reflecting a comprehensive worldview.
(DIR) Post #Ad4pPewhdukCgM3ZE8 by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T18:51:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Radical_EgoCom @8petros @gimulnautti When do you think this belief system began?Do you believe, like Marx, that there was some original time when resources were shared, no one individual was in control and somehow they all got on?But then somehow private individuals captured the resources and the populace voluntarily gave up their rights? And then by the magic of capitalism it self replicated.
(DIR) Post #Ad4pPfXvPWWCXnTIFE by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T19:08:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Mate, get back to school and learn about enclosures and the industrial revolution. You are a shame to your fellow believers, not knowing essential facts about your own cult.
(DIR) Post #Ad4pSk2f9U05M9JWXA by simon_lucy@mastodon.social
2023-12-22T19:06:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @gimulnautti @Radical_EgoCom I don't worship anything. But thanks for not adding anything to the conversation apart from ringing Stanford's name like a bell.
(DIR) Post #Ad4qa6Q4S1i2jxKw0e by gimulnautti@mastodon.green
2023-12-22T19:10:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@8petros @8petros @simon_lucy @Radical_EgoCom There you go. You are not looking for friends, you are looking for enemies. You put words in people’s mouths and paint their picture as one. Have a good life but don’t blame others when you can’t win on the political field. Everyone needs allies, even you.
(DIR) Post #Ad4qa76xsY1KszPBrs by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-22T19:22:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Please note, that it is you, who tries to keep this conversation going, not me.
(DIR) Post #Ad6E3MtclKO2LM2mno by 8petros@petroskowo.pl
2023-12-23T11:15:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats