Post AcmPwu85FaY5DR4Ukq by Nekoplanet@paquita.masto.host
(DIR) More posts by Nekoplanet@paquita.masto.host
(DIR) Post #AcmD9PXYzZvwhpcfiK by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T19:36:05.563Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
There are basically two irreconcilable camps in the Threads debate here.- Camp 1, understandably, wants nothing to do with Meta and view them as an existential threat to the Fediverse for plenty of well-precedented reasons.- Camp 2, also understandably, sees potential in connecting a managed platform that appeals to entities like news outlets and other services to the Fediverse, enabling us to access that information without requiring an account on a Meta-owned platform.Camp 1 will not cede ground because they view the issue as existential. Camp 2 will, I dunno, deal with it or move to a server where they can see what they want to see?But given the scale of Threads already, widespread blocking of it will create a pretty noticeably weird gap in the federation graph, and make onboarding for new potential Fedi users even more confusing. That part, by itself, kinda sucks.
(DIR) Post #AcmDWHE64Mufa5Q9Eu by Andres@mastodon.hardcoredevs.com
2023-12-13T19:39:13Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart - Camp 3, instance administrators of small/ medium communities that can't afford federating with a massive centralized instance used by 10 / 100 times the amount of people that the fediverse is used to.
(DIR) Post #AcmDWHs9fQxJaKA8g4 by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T19:40:12.281Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Andres I mean that's a totally legitimate practical concern for sure, although I would consider it separate from "the debate."
(DIR) Post #AcmDekd4dNq15a90Yi by Andres@mastodon.hardcoredevs.com
2023-12-13T19:40:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart fair enough
(DIR) Post #AcmEnLB4jRB8iFhx68 by Skoll3@nixnet.social
2023-12-13T19:53:02.856475Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart Google Chat was not ultimately good for XMPP wider adoption
(DIR) Post #AcmEnM8HBKX9frPENE by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T19:54:29.762Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Skoll3 XMPP is the EEE example everyone runs to, and I just don't think a single example establishes a precedent. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying it's insufficient evidence.
(DIR) Post #AcmFNlnRF1Wth71TNo by RVLara23@mastodon.social
2023-12-13T19:58:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart Think you nailed it. I'm in Camp 2 and being on one of the largest and most hated instances anyway I don't plan on moving and I'm looking forward to how this plays out.
(DIR) Post #AcmHK1RbJyHoyW9JUu by markhughes@mastodon.social
2023-12-13T20:13:03Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart and isn't this at least de facto what Camp 1 are concerned about?That Meta and the fediverse are incompatible and that whether or not you believe Meta's motives are good (Camp 1: 🤣, Camp 2: 🤗) it's impact will be harmful.
(DIR) Post #AcmHMFlv1QXHzUiUKG by distractal@mastodon.social
2023-12-13T20:12:46Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart I'm in camp 4, a combination of camps 1 and 2, that worries about the information pollution that might be wrought by Threads, finds Meta a disgusting company who has knowingly contributed to fascism across the globe, but also sees this integration as potentially a way to wrest social media control away from Meta and other "move fast and break things" orgs and buoy decentralized social media.
(DIR) Post #AcmIW6cjzNHGT7gZ1s by signalthirteen@mastodon.online
2023-12-13T20:32:22Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart Camp 2 here, but I do understand where Camp 1 is coming from. Mastodon might have seemed like an unspoiled village paradise and now we're talking about letting in a Walmart.I personally think the more people see Mastodon the more migration away from the junk food platform of Threads might make sense. I don't think we'll lose anybody in the other direction. However I've only been here for a year or so, so I am not as knowledgeable on this as I should be.
(DIR) Post #AcmIbPggXQv12d3rM0 by ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.com
2023-12-13T20:24:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart My worry is that once Meta gets it's feelers into ActivityPub, they'll user their size and power to start demanding/coercing incremental changes in the way ActivityPub works to fit their needs...And their needs are, and always will be, directly related to the acquisition of money/wealth.
(DIR) Post #AcmIbQz9iFHt4Ci7ma by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T20:37:08.841Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ShredderFeeder I do not believe size and power have a lot of impact on ActivityPub's governance, but I can't speak with authority on that.
(DIR) Post #AcmJ6oYW82G597DKQy by tappenden@infosec.exchange
2023-12-13T20:30:34Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart Yup. Widespread blocking won’t solve any of the problems camp 1 has… if anything, it’ll exacerbate them.
(DIR) Post #AcmK1WmwrKwoY30V4S by crossgolf_rebel@moppels.bar
2023-12-13T20:14:40.624Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart@infosec.town Have you ever talked to people who belong to Camp 1 and are victims of Meta and tried to understand their reasons?I can understand them very well. Not taking these fears seriously makes them repeated victims of Zuckerberg.Who am I to push these groups off the cliff again
(DIR) Post #AcmK1XZ9y5VoxZZ0DY by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T20:53:03.645Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crossgolf_rebel I believe this post made quite clear that I do understand their reasons, and even agree with them.
(DIR) Post #AcmLgruFLgiFs2hISe by buermann@mastodon.social
2023-12-13T21:10:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart Mastodon instances are "managed platforms", the difference is that Threads is managed by the dictates of whatever it is management thinks the market is dictating. Lies, for instance, are cheap to produce and sell very well, and so will remain at the core of meta's business model.
(DIR) Post #AcmLgstZfflkwFOH3I by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T21:11:44.520Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@buermann Is there a mainstream source of information or news that you consider trustworthy?
(DIR) Post #AcmPcVUL9hi908kuJs by ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.com
2023-12-13T21:37:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart I think what they'll do is once they're ingrained they'll make a small change that "breaks something" in their favor, or to add a functionality, and hope that outside users will lobby to have that change made industry-wide. threads.net is already blocked on my instance. I want nothing to do with anything and think Zuckerberg should go fuck himself with a Saguaro Cactus.
(DIR) Post #AcmPfO655nfGwjmYrI by jackwilliambell@rustedneuron.com
2023-12-13T20:21:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart On my little tiny one-person instance I intend to treat Threads like any other instance: if I see a lot of abuse or a lack of moderation I'll block it. (Which probably means I'll end up blocking it.)That said? I'm mostly in Camp 1; just with a 'wait and see with one finger on the trigger' attitude.
(DIR) Post #AcmPwu85FaY5DR4Ukq by Nekoplanet@paquita.masto.host
2023-12-13T21:01:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart I think that you misrepresent many of the camp 1.Is not that we want nothing with Meta, is that our community rules go completely against what Meta does.Meta allows "all discourses" moderation. We don't. Meta doesn't allow "nudity", even without CW. We do. Meta will always push for changes we're not willing to make, and we will push for changes they won't accomodate.Is not so much an existential treath as... We dont' federate with Truth Social, why should we with threads?
(DIR) Post #AcmPwux8BnNjlkxGK0 by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T21:59:27.071Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Nekoplanet With respect, I don't really think that's a misrepresentation so much as an extra step. Why do your community rules go against those things? Are they dangerous? Could people be harmed by abiding by those policies? The impact is the point.But if I have misrepresented, I apologize. This is what I have been seeing and hearing from my perch here, which is certainly not comprehensive.
(DIR) Post #AcmPwxihtscuLtEHku by Nekoplanet@paquita.masto.host
2023-12-13T21:06:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart I've been banned on meta platforms for posting a photo not dissimilar to this one with the subtitle "BONITO MUSSOLINI" (a pun on Bonito = Mackerel). The second strike came from a photo I posted 5 years ago of mickey mouse removing his eyeballs, a common reaction meme at that time.So... do you think Meta is going to seat at the federation and not try to bully us to change our ways or defederate US?
(DIR) Post #AcmQNC5H7MosQkIGg4 by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T22:04:14.617Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Nekoplanet Unlike many folks here, I don't think I know Meta well enough to understand its strategy, other than profit.That also means assuming bad faith is a reasonable course.
(DIR) Post #AcmSVFToZm1NBfjy4G by mattontech@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-12-13T22:20:46Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart feels like a schism is inevitable
(DIR) Post #AcmVutGk4sQXh2XoTw by raptor85@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-13T23:03:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @ShredderFeeder as we've seen before though if you're a large enough majority of some piece of tech (web browsers, etc) you become de-facto standard even if you're not playing nice. We could very well see the situation a year or two in where threads starts adding their own extensions and the choice for other servers is comply or defed, pissing off their users who won't understand why they suddenly lost 3/4 their friends list.
(DIR) Post #AcmVuu1tFa8o3GbSyG by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-13T23:06:21.112Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@raptor85 @ShredderFeeder Is it the case now that Fedi servers must implement every aspect of ActivityPub?
(DIR) Post #AcmZsxqiTe3F8UhxcO by ShredderFeeder@shredderfood.com
2023-12-13T23:37:08Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @raptor85 That is an awfully good question, I have no idea. I only have a 10,000 foot view idea of how it all works. ;-)I should hope we'll all be able to say "No thanks, we're not gonna do that" to any stupid attempt by Facebook to monetize it...
(DIR) Post #AcmfQTxWc8Oe39h88O by buermann@mastodon.social
2023-12-13T23:53:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart The top content in Meta's networks are not mainstream sources but Shapiro, Bongino, the Occupy Democrat twins, and a long tail of desperate 'influencers', none of whom have any editorial standards let alone editors. The corporation is at odds with mainstream sources and suppress them if they don't cough up the dough for promotional traffic, while whitelisting popular misinformation hubs from moderation to farm the clicks.
(DIR) Post #AcmfQUsxAcKkvGYzeC by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T00:52:53.663Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@buermann And this is exactly why being able to access Threads accounts from Fedi is so interesting. Say I have a news source I trust like the Los Angeles Times, or individual journalists who write for that organization. From Fedi, I can choose to follow those sources and interact with them, without dealing with the rest of that dreck.I wish those outlets would come here. But if they don't, It'd still be cool to choose to have that material in my timeline.
(DIR) Post #AcmhE9Ea2iZ4Cpv0N6 by raptor85@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-14T01:10:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @ShredderFeeder not exactly, the problem is breaking changes, and there's often monetary incentive to make breaking changes. Say at some point all threads posts require a new field they want to use for tracking/etc on all posts, and their service rejects if it's not there or incorrect. It's not "required" but you effectively can't communicate with threads without it, so any servers not wanting to defed will HAVE to include it. Basically the ActiveX strategy.
(DIR) Post #AcmhEAA0bCVB4wmrsu by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T01:13:04.216Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@raptor85 @ShredderFeeder Again, I am not part of ActivityPub governance, so I can't speak with any authority. It may be a risk, but I also think it is simply too early to know how exactly Meta intends to make use of ActivityPub. For all we know, it's entirely a move to avoid antitrust litigation in the EU.
(DIR) Post #AcmhZTN8MiuqkC5VFA by deltatux@infosec.town
2023-12-14T01:16:09.146Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart personally I find that there's still value in federation with Threads. Even if you make it a "limited" federation, at least it gives users the choice if they want to see content there or not.There are going to be government agencies, news agencies and other organizations would establish themselves on whatever platform that they believe is where the mainstream is. As much as we constantly make noise to have them come to the fediverse or "Mastodon", that's not where your average users are as much as we try to say otherwise. Most people are on either Threads or Twitter for microblogging, for the most part. Other platforms are still niche.These organizations still provide vital information about local communities and safety information, no matter how problematic the platforms themselves can be, there's still valuable information there.
(DIR) Post #AcmhgBMTj7ZUucyqye by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T01:18:09.420Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deltatux This is essentially my position, but with the understanding that for a huge chunk of Fedi, that will simply be unpalatable. and that to achieve this, I may have to move to my own instance.
(DIR) Post #AcmhixHoVy2W7y7YaO by buermann@mastodon.social
2023-12-14T01:17:43Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart That would be a distinct benefit. I don't know why the flagship lefty rags haven't kept a presence here while contining to supporting traffic on xitter when they could trivially follow the LA Times' example of cross-posting everywhere.https://press.coop/@latimes
(DIR) Post #Acmi919sjztTfKq2a0 by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T01:23:22.265Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@buermann One stated reason is that the culture here was so anticorporate that it prevented useful engagement. And I saw it happen—to say nothing of the normal Fedi scolds about how to present content. It's exhausting, and for minimal benefit for those outlets
(DIR) Post #AcmlgrXZJ3Y3XokPom by buermann@mastodon.social
2023-12-14T01:48:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart The minimal benefit for leftwing outlets would be helping community controlled social media become a viable alternative for their followers so they could keep some faint hope alive of taking the keys back from Zuckerberg Inc's genocide algorithms.How could the "I demand you put content warnings on all political posts" folks that can't figure out the mute button be any worse than a sea of bargain basement brownshirt bluecheck trolls being promoted to the top of all your replies?
(DIR) Post #AcmlgsQW0lV6IESISm by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T02:03:05.794Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@buermann Okay first of all, I hope we're not including the LA Times in "leftwing outlets." But anyway.It's not so much that it's worse, but maybe just as annoying plus dealing with all the other weird nuances of using Fedi, like choosing an instance, navigating fediblocks, maybe even running an instance, convincing readers to look there...it is more than most outlets bargained for from social media.
(DIR) Post #AcmpgQ9rVrh0R6hiLI by buermann@mastodon.social
2023-12-14T02:46:33Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart Oh no, the LAT floats from one billionaire's pocket to another. Present ownership seems like an improvement over either the predator Sam Zell or mercenary Heath Freeman."convincing readers to look there"I'm only arguing for a minimum maintenance presence here so when people do take a look around they don't immediately leave due to their conspicuous absence, surrendering opportunity after opportunity to build something better whenever the silos take another piss on their users.
(DIR) Post #Acmz9oaeeY3wCFKLBo by deltatux@infosec.town
2023-12-14T04:29:22.943Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart ya, I get why they make their stance to oppose federation but at the same time, it's my understanding that a lot of flagship or "major" instances are open to federating. The main Mastodon instances (Mastodon.social & Mastodon.online) seems to signal in the past that they're open to federation. Right now I'm seeing that pixelfed's creator is actively playing with the only Threads account that's being federated right now (in its limited capacity).Not sure what @jerry's thoughts are regarding Threads federation. I know some regional instances are either open to federating or open to limiting/unlisting Threads so it won't flood the public/instance timeline but still give people the choice to see Threads content if they so choose to.Personally tried running my own instance, even with running Akkoma which is quite lightweight for single user instances, I can't even find the time to keep up with sysadmining these days because life lol. So I'm hoping the instances I'm on are open to federating with Threads (either fully open or even limited/unlisted is good too).
(DIR) Post #Acmz9pLnpFmCYTNzg8 by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T04:33:59.548Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deltatux Untagging Jerry because the poor guy has made his stance clear enough on other posts, but yeah you and I are on the same page here.
(DIR) Post #Acn0Ko1jBhOVaZnM7E by deltatux@infosec.town
2023-12-14T04:43:21.941Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart ah ok, I think I might have missed it, so was he for it, open to limiting or not looking to federate?
(DIR) Post #Acn0Kop0EUoG3Oqhv6 by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T04:47:11.151Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deltatux infosec.exchange/@jerry/111575098089860174
(DIR) Post #Acn0jceuagafZTxMie by deltatux@infosec.town
2023-12-14T04:50:30.467Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart ah thanks so much, good to see that it was recently addressed, thanks!
(DIR) Post #Aco9gvhcQLByVjyPbM by benmontour@infosec.exchange
2023-12-14T18:03:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @deltatux On the same page here too. I like the ability to follow somebody if they chose to be on Threads. But I also don't want to see the volume of noise that Threads generates drowning out everything else. It is nice to be able to keep up with something there without needing to be subjected to having a Meta account or seeing ad’s and such other promoted things (do they do that there? No idea honestly, but I assume so.)
(DIR) Post #Aco9oMwRY1y71DSGDA by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T18:08:04.765Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@benmontour @deltatux Precisely. As I've said elsewhere, it would be rad if government orgs and news outlets really maintained presences here. But if they don't, I still want (need?) access to that information.As for ads, this is definitely the honeymoon period where they're trying to build the userbase. The ads will come later.
(DIR) Post #AcoAoLCE8ZRXYkO7DU by benmontour@infosec.exchange
2023-12-14T18:18:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @deltatux Thankfully we here outside of Threads won't be subjected to those. While still maintaining the benefit of being able to keep up with activity there.
(DIR) Post #AcoTtUzr1cOiX2m2IS by failedLyndonLaRouchite@mas.to
2023-12-14T21:34:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart I probably don't understand thingsbut it seems to me that if any mastodon user or server did 1/10th of the stuff meta does, or at least 1/10th of what it is accused of, it would be defederated in a heartbeat
(DIR) Post #AcoTtW6ctvPPyKwxUW by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T21:53:06.099Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@failedLyndonLaRouchite And everyone and every server is welcome to do so.Perhaps your question, although unasked, is "Why is Threads different?"The opportunity cost for Fedi, losing access to what may be a massive community and userbase, as well as vital information, is a cost not presented by blocking any other server.Now one might come back with "Any community that supports $x is not worth dealing with. And again, individuals and servers can make that call.My original post, so long ago, was mainly to point out that regardless of where you stand on it, the widespread defederation of what might be the single largest user of ActivityPub makes the Fediverse even harder to navigate.
(DIR) Post #Acoe1cMiVkw1FByg4m by bloc@hachyderm.io
2023-12-14T20:08:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggartYou might want to read up an insiders view on this: https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.htmlI think there is good reason to keep them away with a stick. @raptor85 @ShredderFeeder
(DIR) Post #Acoe1dGj9Vjo2uBPNY by raptor85@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-14T23:44:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloc @mttaggart @ShredderFeeder yep, this has been a common tactic in the proprietary software world forever, every time a big proprietary software giant "Embraces" an open source protocol it's generally pretty quickly followed by the next two steps, "Extend" and "Extinguish". Microsoft even coined it as a strategy, embrace than extend open standards with proprietary extensions in order to phase out competition.
(DIR) Post #Acoe1dvUhwLc5LFxvE by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-14T23:46:36.269Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@raptor85 @bloc @ShredderFeeder I would really, really, really like it if someone using EEE could find an example that wasn't XMPP. It's the only one I ever see, and a single event does not a pattern make.
(DIR) Post #AcofwPls6oD6dzOGIq by raptor85@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-14T23:52:06Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @bloc @ShredderFeeder 1. Web Browsers (IE/NetScape, IE had HTML extensions that when used broke pages in other browsers, and extensions like activex that could only run in IE that they pushed hard). They killed SO many browsers and held de-facto monopoly of the internet for a LONG time2. Java was almost entirely killed by MS's extensions that made java applications ONLY compatible with windows, ironically google more or less saved it with android 1/X
(DIR) Post #Acog4AaqQKBvt4vkOW by raptor85@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-15T00:08:42Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @bloc @ShredderFeeder 3. Messenger apps, mostl used to use the same protocol, microsoft as well, they started including msn messenger with windows, extended the protocol, then cut off AOL and all the other third parties.4. Office Docs/XML, extended to rely on windows components to render correctly 5. RSS, google reader gained super-majority of the market, killed off all competition, pushed integration to their other products, then killed it off, nearly killing RSS entirely.2/X
(DIR) Post #AcohKpnZ5jC8GpOGoq by mttaggart@infosec.town
2023-12-15T00:23:42.944Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@raptor85 @bloc @ShredderFeeder Thank you! I really appreciate the time you took to respond; I learned a lot.
(DIR) Post #AcohdxDlibGGnFlQgK by raptor85@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-12-15T00:25:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mttaggart @bloc @ShredderFeeder 6. IRC, Slack integrated IRC, gave it multimedia extensions, became an EXTREMELY popular client for it, then killed IRC support migrating to their own proprietary protocol.7. kerberos, microsoft extended the protocol to break support of standards compliant implementations on linux/unix systems.and the list goes on and on, obviously microsoft has long been the biggest user of the strategy, all the way back to lotus notes :/