Post AcjUI2jCIDmgJ7t1Xc by dynode@mas.to
(DIR) More posts by dynode@mas.to
(DIR) Post #AciyIHU0EmLFXHqheK by kevinrothrock@infosec.exchange
2023-12-12T05:46:12Z
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The Russian govt’s direct involvement in writing history books — including books about the ongoing war in Ukraine — is indescribably creepy. On Monday, the Science & Higher Ed Ministry announced a working group to write the official history of the “Special Military Op.” Yuck. https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/6395331
(DIR) Post #AciyIISGciY0YC2paC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-12-12T06:05:20.915940Z
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@kevinrothrock Creepy, but it works. In 50 years you’ll have a significant fraction of Western historians fighting to death for the phrase “liberation of Mariupol”, just like they today speak of “Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe” or “free housing in USSR”.
(DIR) Post #Acj8c48EaLMlSfjvNY by kevinrothrock@infosec.exchange
2023-12-12T06:59:54Z
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@kravietz Soviet liberation from the Nazis is a real thing, albeit fraught with much context and caveats. I question how much work by Western historians you've actually read, judging by this description you've offered.
(DIR) Post #Acj8cKHgWyQtYcHhKa by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-12-12T08:00:30.880520Z
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@kevinrothrock It is a kind of half-truth, granted that Soviets first invaded most of Eastern Europe, some during Bolshevik 1918 Westward offensive, some during 1939 joint offensive with Nazi Germany, then were kicked out by their former ally, and then kicked out Germany with the help of their new Western allies only to occupy most of Eastern Europe until 1990.You call it “caveats”, I call it “occupation”.And yes, there’s a significant amount of Western historians who unironically speak of “Poland joining the Warsaw Pact” or “free housing in USSR”, which I have already mentioned.
(DIR) Post #AcjDpgev9XBqUFLKuO by t_mkdf@ruhr.social
2023-12-12T08:12:41Z
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@kravietz @kevinrothrock liberation from Nazi occupation didn't mean freedom in Eastern Europe.It meant leaving death row for a communal cell.(liberation from being a Nazi did mean freedom in Austria and Western Germany...)
(DIR) Post #AcjLwgLNWRjXAa359M by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-12-12T10:30:23.407998Z
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@kevinrothrock And if you want a sample of the Western historians that I’m talking about, I recommend reading the archives of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes where endless debates are being fought for the last decade or so to either delete or rename the article, based specifically on opinions of Western historians who believe Soviet communism wasn’t homicidal, and even if it was it wasn’t intended, and even if it was then it was necessary etc etc.
(DIR) Post #AcjUH5AliaBhbGKCBc by kevinrothrock@infosec.exchange
2023-12-12T11:35:22Z
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@kravietz These are reasonable debates to have. If you don't like academic freedom, maybe Russia is more for you than you realize.
(DIR) Post #AcjUH63MRbrAKZrnHM by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-12-12T12:03:41.122217Z
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@kevinrothrockIf you look at the archive of these debates, currently reaching 60th volume, you will promptly see patterns repeating through the whole decade.E.g. in debates on about intentionality of Holodomor some people endlessly repeating the same cherry-picked historic arguments e.g. the natural drought (a fact) while ignoring others (dekulakization, restriction of movement, confiscation of grain, sale of grains abroad — all also facts). This style of debate is anything but "reasonable", it's simply form of denialism.As a matter of fact you see exactly the same kind of style of debating in Holocaust denialism, where authors like Jürgen Roth (incidentally, very popular in Russia) argue that Auschwitz was merely a "labour camp" and couldn't be a true "death camp" with so few crematories... except he ignores the presence of massive Auschwitz-Birkenau subcamp which had them more than enough.Whether you want outright and ahistoric denialism to be protected under the free speech umbrella, is a matter of individual taste. In many EU countries such denialism is specifically excluded from free speech protection due to the legacy of Nazism and Bolshevism in Europe.
(DIR) Post #AcjUI2jCIDmgJ7t1Xc by dynode@mas.to
2023-12-12T11:50:54Z
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@kravietz @kevinrothrock So tankie amateur "historians" exist, what else is new?Think you're barking up the wrong tree here...
(DIR) Post #AcjVAf0eBBe0fm5lpo by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-12-12T12:13:46.276052Z
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@dynode I’m not talking about amateurs - that’s an important distinction on Wikipedia, where you need to produce some kind of published and usually academic sources to be considered WP:RS.I don’t want to even touch that swamp again, but if you dig through the archives you will find people quoting actual historians, not very prominent, usually somehow aligned with socialist or left-wing, who happily engaged in denying, dismissing or at least justifying regimes in which millions of people have died as result of state policy.Examples of prominent figures (although not historians) doing the same are Jean-Paul Sartre, who defended Stalinism well into 1980’s, or Noam Chomsky, who initially denied, then questioned and then simply justified massacres such as these performed under Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.@kevinrothrock
(DIR) Post #AcjfrDFsFDeYaV8xcm by dynode@mas.to
2023-12-12T14:12:06Z
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@kravietz @kevinrothrock Again, what is your point? Tankies gonna tankie.What is your actual issue with Kevin's post? 🤔
(DIR) Post #AcjfrED4h70ZY6qEts by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-12-12T14:13:29.397092Z
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@dynode I have no issue - just explaining why they do it even if it’s indeed “creepy” - it simply works for some audience.@kevinrothrock