Post AcbslPxtoupqPRcjMO by garbados@friend.camp
(DIR) More posts by garbados@friend.camp
(DIR) Post #AcbnsTLt7uUhAbOAW8 by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T18:34:55Z
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open source is a methodology to me, like peer review only shittier because software development is a profoundly disorganized, immature discipline. it's better than the alternative of never showing or sharing your work, but it's not a panacea. it's just a tool.
(DIR) Post #AcbnsUIjb7Z876vAEy by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T18:35:44Z
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mainly i get mad at foss stuff because the culture of foss is so intensely misogynist, racist, etc.; this could be good if your boys club wasn't so childish
(DIR) Post #AcbnsVD6DYeUvvIB60 by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T19:05:47Z
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@garbadosCan you point me to an example? I want to know how exactly does it work.I'm not asking ironically. I didn't see serious examples of such problems.
(DIR) Post #AcboHtks68uUITCNGK by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T19:10:17Z
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@skobkin are you asking me to show you examples of prejudice in foss projects? serious question
(DIR) Post #Acbp36CLeVT0V0YdJw by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T19:18:56Z
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@garbadosYes.I really can't remember seeing that someone was judged by their race or gender in such projects.I only know a couple of examples when projects weren't participating in "canceling" someone because of their work for the project. But I personally don't think it's a big problem when everyone benefits from efforts even those efforts are from bad person.Still returning to the topic, I'm sure that we can find some examples. Just because there are a lot of projects and it's just a matter of statistics. But I'm more interested in the scale of this problem.I personally think (based on my observations) that it's quite a rare problem.
(DIR) Post #Acbp7TNNQ4JPXgnldQ by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T19:19:42Z
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@skobkin are you a cis pale-skinned man? serious question
(DIR) Post #AcbrlooHLcxNVgkcee by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T19:17:03Z
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@skobkin if so, two quick examples from my personal experience. these anecdotes don’t represent the totality of bigotry in our discipline; i find it remarkable, if i understand you correctly, that you’ve had no interaction with this bullshit.- gunjs: https://friend.camp/@garbados/108210309670867147- fallacies, comments: https://gist.github.com/garbados/f82604ea639e0e47bf44?permalink_comment_id=3479556#gistcomment-3479556
(DIR) Post #AcbrlpgW5yLGDu7wC8 by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T19:49:24Z
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@garbadosI see.Although I'm agreeing with the points you were using while provoking those developers themselves, I can also somewhat relate with the first case.Because it's not a first time when someone wastes the time of developers with useless changes. I'm not saying that reacting like they did (mentioning "lithium" meds for example) is the right thing to do. I'd personally would've just replied with something like: > Sorry, these changes aren't bringing any additional value to the project. To avoid wasting your time next time, it's better to discuss them in issues before working on actual implementation.I'd do that not because this potential contributor is a woman, gay or belong to any race, but because those changes are useless for the project. I'd say the same to anyone.Can't say anything about second example. It's just strange from both sides. I'm really not sure what you were trying to accomplish. I'd personally stood away from that even if I were strong "anti-woke" person myself. Because it's just looks like a bait.In the end I'm not sure how any of that is specific to FOSS itself. You will always meet people who don't agree with you or even try to tell bad jokes when you bring them something which is against their culture.I expected something like "why should we even bother checking this code written by a %any_attribute_of_a_person%". But what you had shown was more in the cultural plane.So even when I agree that those people were just rude and/or stupid, I'm not sure how it's related to FOSS itself.Maybe I'm one of those pragmatic "if it benefits the project then it doesn't matter who wrote that" guys 🤷
(DIR) Post #Acbru5yzNrL75Shv4S by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T19:50:55Z
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@garbadosYes.Why should it matter?
(DIR) Post #AcbrwG4yodkgyqXb0q by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T19:51:17Z
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@skobkin it's related to foss because it happens on foss projects, in foss spaces. your asking me to do your homework for you in this thread is itself a part of the overarching atmosphere of prejudice.
(DIR) Post #Acbs8JTxzOar0eybAW by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T19:53:28Z
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@skobkin because when you say "i've rarely seen it. it's never happened to me" reflects how you resist believing marginalized people when they tell you what THEY experience, which is itself part of the overarching climate of prejudice. of course it's rare to you: because it doesn't happen to you, and tech is already so sexist that there are dramatically fewer women in the industry. i wonder why there are fewer women in the industry? could it be sexists?? no, it must be the women who are wrong 🙃
(DIR) Post #AcbsSqfgIrMHjdFQfI by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T19:25:08Z
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@skobkin googling “sexism in open source” yields fruitful results, too. you could, if i may be so bold as to say, do your own research on why such a dramatic minority of programmers are women> only 2--3 percent of OSS developers are womenhttps://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3524501.3527602#:~:text=Open%20Source%20Software%20(OSS)%20communities,spaces%22%20focused%20on%20supporting%20women.
(DIR) Post #AcbsSrb6rLIObk7IB6 by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T19:57:11Z
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@garbadosAh. This matter is a serious problem I'd say.But I'm not sure that main reason of that is just a sexism in FOSS itself. I'm more inclined to consider more deep social culture problems. For example I really know examples of mothers saying to their daughters something like "why do you even want to become an engineer, just go study X as every girl does".It begins far earlier than FOSS itself starts. I personally would like to see more women in the software engineering, but for cultural reasons it's not so popular. And it's sad. We need to reform many institutes starting from the schools before this changes.
(DIR) Post #AcbslPxtoupqPRcjMO by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T20:00:31Z
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@skobkin elevating the scope to broader societies doesn't relieve anyone of responsibility. we can say, we must overthrow the wretches of capital and colony! but unless you personally are organizing a new red army, it's hollow words. what are YOU doing to combat prejudice in YOUR industry? because right now you're just in my mentions, wasting my time, getting me to google stuff for you, in a manner that is so profoundly typical of the industry's bigotry.
(DIR) Post #AcbtLRYHOjkHkuooaG by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T20:07:04Z
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@garbadosSorry, but now you're being biased a bit.No. I didn't say anything about myself.I regularly read discussions and mail lists. And I didn't see a lot of it there. I'm excluding myself from the equation exactly because I'm not being subject of such behavior. So I'm not trying to extrapolate my own "0 cases" to "0 cases at all"..And no. I don't think neither women are wrong nor industry is sexist. As I said in adjacent thread reply, I myself see a lot of reasons far from FOSS which greatly reduces the number of women developers even before they could've tried to participate in it.
(DIR) Post #AcbtmhFb8eyEGN4l60 by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T20:11:58Z
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@skobkin just because the industry exists under patriarchy, it isn't sexist? is a man who beats his wife not sexist, because he lives in a patriarchal society? how can marginalized people of numerous backgrounds identify this as an industry-wide problem, but you and your specific non-experience warrant this manner of doubt?
(DIR) Post #AcbuAafLGwY0n5VjKy by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T20:16:19Z
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@garbados What am I doing?I'm respecting my colleagues of any gender, race or anything and not considering anyone's attributes when working with them on anything.I'm sorry that you feel that I wasted your time, but there's a principle called "burden of proof". So when I see something strange from my PoV, I ask to provide more information on the subject.In your case I was surprised by the fact that you were specifically pointing on the FOSS itself while from my PoV sexism (and any other *ism) is not specific to FOSS, but a part of societies culture.If you think that this for some reason mean that I'm supporting such behavior or deliberately wasting your time then it's sad, but ok. I'm getting used to being seen as an enemy when I'm asking qustions and not just agreeing from the start or proposing more in-depth view on the problem.Thank you for your answers anyway.
(DIR) Post #AcbuH9KVJ0iA2JtKrY by garbados@friend.camp
2023-12-08T20:17:29Z
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@skobkin what are you doing? you have been in my mentions all day, asking me to do your homework for you. wake up dude
(DIR) Post #AcbuyMals8XRcZ6eem by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T20:25:18Z
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@garbadosSorry, now you're starting to make less logical sense.Beating anyone is wrong be it a wife or husband. And even after that this could be caused not by sexism. If a man in a gay couple beats his husband is it a sexism? Sounds like a stupid question, right?> how can peopleYou know, here in Russia a numerous people thinks that Ukraine is a Nazi state. Does this fact alone mean that it's true or that there are litelally no nazi in there? I think that this thread will not lead any of us anywhere. Let's end it with no hard feelings?
(DIR) Post #Acbv2itCufiNvvoBsW by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T20:26:06Z
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@garbadosOk, I will not waste any more of your time. Sorry for asking.
(DIR) Post #Acbx8AUvtPCquqB8KW by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-08T20:49:28Z
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@garbadosYou also removed my following? Ok.I just don't understand how are you planning to change anything for the better if you're not ready to talk even to people who are ready to listen and not trying to offend you.Anyway, have a good day.
(DIR) Post #AcbzqsGOjajFInpDt2 by gminks@mas.to
2023-12-08T21:19:58Z
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@skobkin @garbados well thank goodness you came along to fix the problem.
(DIR) Post #AcdWbz1QoatNZ7I9bc by nasamuffin@jorts.horse
2023-12-09T15:01:45Z
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@skobkin @garbados lmao but the gender ratio in all of software is so much better than the gender ratio specifically in FOSS so this argument doesn't even make sense no I'm not going to link you stats, use a search engine
(DIR) Post #AcdqSF6k9V0PdqPQeG by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-09T18:44:05Z
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@a @garbados Making cringe (by PR author's own opinion) changes renaming something to "pets" is not. At least from my point of view.I can be very wrong, but I won't accept such PR unless I see solid arguments.
(DIR) Post #AcdwOTJty8iYHq9Iky by skobkin@lor.sh
2023-12-09T19:50:37Z
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@a I'm sorry. As I was blocked, I can't see entire thread, so it's hard for me right now to find that PR again.Can you send me the link?