Post AcOmMM19LDAVXz5bXc by cbt@snabelen.no
(DIR) More posts by cbt@snabelen.no
(DIR) Post #AcOmM6Tz6Ej7MmSPGS by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T16:31:50Z
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reading the #activitypub "standard" has changed my mind on whether for example #threads implementing it would be a good thing. i think it might break the #fediverse. the standard is so open and undefined that it relies on de-facto implementation details springing from the larger implementations. a big actor with endless resources could easily dominate it.
(DIR) Post #AcOmM7SFUAvsNgeXCK by 3dcandy@mastodon.social
2023-12-01T16:35:00Z
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@tomasekeli that is a risk indeed. But as I already know that many other instances will automagically block threads it will be fine
(DIR) Post #AcOmM8MG7vjfBOrGV6 by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T16:39:04Z
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@3dcandy with 15 million on the old #fediverse and 140 million on #threads and both implementing the #activitypub standard faithfully but mutually incompatible: threads would de-facto be the the standard. the test would be left behind.this is the essence of embrace-extend-extinguish
(DIR) Post #AcOmM9FCpdghvoZ996 by hopland@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T16:44:24Z
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@3dcandy @tomasekeli not "old", but segmented. That is that yes, Threads would be huge, and yes, platforms could federate with it, but most likely Threads will just become a rather gargantuan island that would just be ignored. Perhaps even Mastodon, Lemmy, Funkwhale, etc developers would go so far as to create extra functions for admins to isolate them selves even more from Threads.Expect people to respond, or we can chalk it up to FUDe.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMA9ZS4m4kcwA08 by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T18:54:31Z
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@hopland @3dcandy @tomasekeli jeg er helt uenig i alt som sies her. Ikke at threads ikke kan ha en dårlig effekt, men av analysen av hvordan protokollen funker, forsidene, baksidene, og at det som er sagt er det ultimate tilfelle med threads forventede tilstedeværelse.Edit: og da mener jeg uenig med det i tråden, ikke spesifikt hopland.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMB6PvHqVh8T9iy by 3dcandy@mastodon.social
2023-12-01T18:57:02Z
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@cbt @hopland @tomasekeli How do you disagree?
(DIR) Post #AcOmMC0mXivsVwqAa0 by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T19:02:34Z
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@3dcandy @hopland @tomasekeli A) practice right now for servers is not accessing all information at once, which is a benefit w threadsB) not having such strongly defined practices in the protocol has both advantages and disadvantages, and can work better in practice with changes like threads entering the scene as what works will persist and what doesnt gets left out as the protocol matures.And some more fundamental disagreements decentralizations and im actually positive to threads.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMChfyFFAeyuQRE by 3dcandy@mastodon.social
2023-12-01T19:05:10Z
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@cbt @hopland @tomasekeli but that is something that happens in many of these things especially with protocols. It is nothing new. It might help threads but I believe that it won't really as the extra users threads brings will be more beneficial than any disadvantages. If people don't want to federate with threads there will be instances for them to be welcomed
(DIR) Post #AcOmMDRlCu6gxuTEGm by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T19:10:36Z
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@3dcandy @hopland @tomasekeli it is positive if you think a decentralized ecology of providers is better for the common good.It is bad if you want the fediverse to be a small community of radical people having overly strong opinions and ties their identity to decentralization, anti-capitalism etc.I know this is a bit of a biased reading, but that is my view on the matter and shows where i'm coming from.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMEGSAQelV8BiHg by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T19:45:25Z
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@cbt in coming at this as a developer, and thinking about clients and servers that do not yet exist. when someone tries to add activitypub to their app they will choose the version of it with the largest impact. and, from a developer's point of view: if the standard is insufficient to implement it invites fragmentation. if the standard was more complete it would make compliant and incompatible impossible at the same time. that's the point of a standard.@3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMF1FMS5RqG55Dk by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T20:05:21Z
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@tomasekeli @3dcandy @hopland yes and no. You being a dev is why i was surprised seeing you write like you did. But devs have different specializations, and I see all the time people from the industry not making holistic evaluations.Technology only need to be good enough. Ideal solutions don't necessarilly do great either.Fragmentation has advantages and drawbacks. But the AT-protocol tries to address your concerns and should be fully compatible with activitypub over time.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMFlKb6wy9Bdt3I by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T20:11:51Z
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@cbt if there are many products bearing the "activitypub" stamp, but they are incompatible with each other - what is a user to do? they cannot trust that the standard will allow them to talk to people on other servers. @3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMGb5UgLmjhrDiy by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T20:13:03Z
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@cbt and i am not talking about defederation here, which is a social thing that happens within the network. i am talking about two wires that both say usb not working the same way.@3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMHNea7CNAKa0QK by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T20:13:31Z
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@cbt (and i know the usb standard has similar issues) @3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMIDPTgbBkqnL60 by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T20:28:47Z
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@tomasekeli @3dcandy @hopland yes, i agree that the fediverse should have had central organization, standarization and brand/identity. Its one of the great things about the matrix protocol.And while I think matrix/element is more technically successful, there is no denying that activetypub is much bigger, as it is just good enough on the things that matter.But you also concur that without fragmentation the protocol or things like linux would not survive until today either.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMJAFwtfchMKKoq by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T20:32:45Z
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@cbt technology should diverge, within protocols and standards.the protocol isn't tech - it's an agreement, a contract, describing how things that work very differently can talk in the same language.tech should vary, i think, and people - but the protocol should be precise and completean incomplete protocol (or open to interpretation) leads to fragmentation.and then the standard and protocol should evolve with needs.@3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMK0inpdbK4sEb2 by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T21:08:04Z
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@tomasekeli @3dcandy @hopland i think this is a overly strict definition that I don't see the purpose of even mentioning. Even if my wording was wrong it should be the core message that should count, unless you are not just trying to artificially disqualify voices and ideas.But as well as protocols being agreements its hard to argue that it doesn't have technological components to it, as well as technology being a very wide concept also encompassing things like technique, process and practice.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMKrtc8AjyzkhTk by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T21:17:29Z
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@cbt there are no rules, but the word does have a common meaning. if you don't think that common meaning fits - let's call it something else, but activitypub is supposed to be "an open, decentralized networking protocol".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_protocol@3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMLbyqn2GHvJVJI by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T21:26:46Z
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@tomasekeli @3dcandy @hopland you can have a more concrete or more loosy-goozy protocol, each with their advantages and disadvantagesThis is the part i reacted the most to, the onesidedness of talking about the protocolAnd i feel like considerations like these are considerations devs would have to contend with every day when developing products and technology? Im not sure why this is something you'd disagree with or not be familiar to youThere is probably a good reason, i just dont know it
(DIR) Post #AcOmMM19LDAVXz5bXc by cbt@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T21:09:12Z
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@tomasekeli @3dcandy @hoplandRegarding the last part:there are no rules that say a protocol should be anything. It is just what it needs to be.You should know this being a developer. It's just a tool not a ideal concept.
(DIR) Post #AcOmMMIsHJLYQxNlAW by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T21:31:10Z
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@cbt my point is this: 1: based on such a loose protocol there can be mutually incompatible implementations that stay within the standard. 2: companies have resources to implement the standard and become part of the fediverse3: they can then change their implementation (gradually if need be) to push others out of the "de-facto" activitypub sphere4: we have seen big companies do this before5: devs will have to use the de-facto standard to reach users6: users will suffer@3dcandy @hopland
(DIR) Post #AcOmMOF34VTURfbjU0 by tomasekeli@snabelen.no
2023-12-01T21:33:01Z
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@cbt devs will use the de-facto biggest standard to reach the largest group of people with their stuff. it's either that or deal with the largest group bothering them because the thing doesn't work for them even though it says it's activitypub@3dcandy @hopland