Post AcF3DhG2kyNESLuk52 by ech@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by ech@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AcEqXsUfOPuBgv2yCe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:17:17Z
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Over the years I have had hundreds of left-wing people block me for sincerely asking for the facts in a situation, a situation I agree with them on... I cant recall a right-winger ever doing that (not that they dont have a ton of other issues).As someone who has and still does lean left I have to say every day i become more and more ashamed of the way "my side" behaves... its depressing to see.
(DIR) Post #AcErJn4Ur5Hum6eWOG by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:26:00Z
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@freemo That's why one should generally not say "i am left", it's worth to figure out what the actually relevant term is to avoid wrong associations. I fail on this too, from time to time. *takes a breath* I'm for universal unalienable human rights and for working together to minimize suffering.
(DIR) Post #AcErW6cE16d2rfIjOS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:28:12Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Not all of them say they are left explicitly, but it is quite obvious.
(DIR) Post #AcErp8hgTg8AqIvkjA by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:31:39Z
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@freemo On second thought, maybe we can express this more along the lines of "the more aligned with sides, the more gatekeeping and demanding conformity without explanation". Reject sides. Embrace content.
(DIR) Post #AcErwKorpUskRjimqO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:32:55Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Yes that is true, and being polarized is never a good idea. But in this case im pointing out thee difference between the sides and how they manifest.Blocking people for fact seeking and asking questions to understand is very much a uniquely left thing.
(DIR) Post #AcEsB5IDq5RidSU8Ui by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:35:37Z
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@freemo Hmm, who associates with authority (right) is usually who sends hateful messages, picures of dead people, requests for k-y-s, symbols associated with Nazis. Seen all of those. Thus: i would like to re-frame that blocking is a good thing. Block me anytime before you do one of those.
(DIR) Post #AcEsMmJMEq8XEvamQ4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:37:42Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Authority isnt right, thats up.... right is conservatism (prefering traditional values), not authoritarianism.
(DIR) Post #AcEsNfODSThe3vHw80 by robryk@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:37:53Z
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@freemo Sadly, we keep conditioning each other to interpret things we say in an indirect fashion. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfLdFZ4my9g (comedic fiction, but the mechanism is IMO real) and consider why would the passengers be alarmed by an announcement that tells them something they are pretty sure is true.
(DIR) Post #AcEsQMCdFcfJQM9Xl2 by arinbasu1@social.arinbasu.online
2023-11-27T17:37:28.571482Z
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Being left of centre does not necessarily imply openness of mind.
(DIR) Post #AcEsQQYl3Ijyw8XGng by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:38:19Z
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@arinbasu1 Thats kinda my point, if anything it appears to suggest a rather violently opposed mind to any sort of contradictory thought.
(DIR) Post #AcEsrGkfcqzOKwuHOC by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:43:15Z
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@freemo I have a problem with "conservative", i think it's a lie. Based on conserving what was, it cannot accurately express what those people are doing. What i do find common to the people we talk about is a disposition to top-down decision making (Führer Principle, lol, dict.cc actually translates it like that). Thus i used authoritarian. So either "conservative" means to keep power inside a circle that common people cannot get into (conserving class structure) or it's an outright lie. I guess conserving class structures could be sugarcoated as prefering traditional values, i just refuse to use "conservative" here.
(DIR) Post #AcEsrVk9t2UaphmaAq by arinbasu1@social.arinbasu.online
2023-11-27T17:41:26.402066Z
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… And criticism for the sake of criticism. Perhaps to appear holier than thou or whatever (sigh) … :-)
(DIR) Post #AcEsrWbKhL1jUcf33Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:43:15Z
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@arinbasu1 Criticism for the sake of criticism I think I find fairly common on both sides of the spectrum, at least at the more extreme ends.
(DIR) Post #AcEt7JufdjCSm6EocK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:46:06Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I have a very different take.While I know publicly the definition of left and right is largely "old fashioned vs new" I find in practice thatisnt too useful or even accurate. For me I define left vs right as values that focus on the individual rights above the rights of the group, and with the left caring more about the collective good even if that sacrafices individual freedom/rights.We see this in almost all aspects, taxes (the left is more ont he side of evening out wealth and redistribution), immigration (caring more about the individuals here now than the collective good of those in need around the world), etc
(DIR) Post #AcEt8RJBd4oE07EruS by arinbasu1@social.arinbasu.online
2023-11-27T17:45:43.045760Z
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Everywhere. Its power play. Criticise, deny, dehumanise.
(DIR) Post #AcEt8SEGCsSkr7wRs0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:46:18Z
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@arinbasu1 yup, no arguments there.
(DIR) Post #AcEt8TjqavK7XNjBk8 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:46:22Z
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@freemo Ah, maybe we have a bit different views on this because we come from different places. Don't forget a lot of what i know of "right wing" is associated with nazis. Like actual nazis, in the third reich. They sure were authoritarian.
(DIR) Post #AcEtJ5GVvQpcox43NI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:48:15Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Could be some of that.But super right wing being associated with a socialist party seems weird, though I agree it was very right in **many** ways it isnt really a great example of what the right is.
(DIR) Post #AcEtKku6bEhaFZNcsy by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:48:34Z
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@freemo Hmm, i think i see where you're coming from. Would be cautious though, as it would lead to wrong results if applied to asian cultures. Guess we need to allow for more diverse categories instead of smushing much into one... which i am fine with. Seeing enough complexity is a must have to understand.
(DIR) Post #AcEtYlXT2HwEH0TJkO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:51:03Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Can you give an example where the result is wrong in asian countries? They would be considered old fashioned, and thus conservative, but in terms of practice many of them are really left wing countries as they are communistic with very significant social welfare programs and laws which prefer the "greater good" over indivdual rights (like making tattoos illegal in certain spaces).So I'd argue they are legitimate extreme left wing in nature despite being old fashioned and in fact a great example of how my definition is more useful and applicable.
(DIR) Post #AcEtZEYX9P1SGiC4w4 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:51:11Z
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@freemo Socialist... lot of lies there, too. The moment someone takes "we should work together and share" as a motto and then installs a dictatorship, that person is just a dictator with a different camouflage. Most of them use some kind of camo, that's just practical. After all, if you shit into everyones cup and try to dominate them with pure violence, that's not realistically sustainable.
(DIR) Post #AcEtg2EbMNp85677SK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:52:22Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Sounds like your associating the left with "It must be something good"... Nothign about left vs right has anything to do with dictatorship (thats up and down). So a left-wing dictatorship is still left wing, just like a right wing dictatorship is still right wing.
(DIR) Post #AcEtpu1ejd6lWAlQFE by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:54:12Z
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@freemo I'd say it is more complicated than that. You know the meaning of "ask culture"? A strong emphasis on what is good for the group, ask culture and different structures from before could change a lot. I'm not saying i have a clear picture, just see lots of little hints about stuff working out differently if we look at another culture. So sorry, your ask for a clear example is a legit question, but i cannot give you one on the spot.
(DIR) Post #AcEu4FuKAy49RAB8Nc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:56:46Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Perhaps you cant think of one because your assertion was wrong? If we cant articulate a stance more often than not its because your stance was not founded on logic or reality.. in the case where its just an inability to express it,then its worth investing the time to try and come back when you can. Because if you cant explain it you should probably chance it.
(DIR) Post #AcEuHpyLOnaD3SXEXo by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T17:59:15Z
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@freemo I cannot bring together the equalizing (evening out wealth is what you named, i would probably expect a bit more in the equality/equity area: as an opposite of the nazis euthanasia of the disabled) that you rightly named with dictatorship, sorry. At that point, a dictator would have to not take any personal gain... so it is theoretically possible, but i cannot think of an example.
(DIR) Post #AcEuRKtPo4c7Yjl78S by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:00:58Z
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@freemo Nah, it's just a new thing to think along those lines with respect to culture. Not thinking about that often, so i don't have prepared statements - call me an unsafe database usage! As i said your ask was legit, and now i think this topic needs to rest a bit for my unconscious to do its thing.
(DIR) Post #AcEuhTmcWIxHlXHK1A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:03:51Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven But you drew a conclusion despite admittidly having not given it much thought... I hope you see the problem in that.But yes you should think it over and come to a clarity of thought on it and hopefully be willing to change your mind as you do (if it is warranted)
(DIR) Post #AcEv0ImzcTfFAdQb7Q by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:07:16Z
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@freemo I think you misinterpret what i do. I do not draw a conclusion, i remain doubtful and consider the matter not settled. Sorry, can't provide a clear end here. If this was a work thing where we needed a decision, we'd have to make a deadline and push it to an actual conclusion until then. Since we are not, we can be more relaxed, right?
(DIR) Post #AcEv44jBqDf2ibRrg8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:07:56Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven its not what "you do" its what all humans do and have to fight against... most people go in with their mind made up whether they know it or not... you and I are no different.
(DIR) Post #AcEvLyypwvig6ZJ2Aq by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:11:11Z
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@freemo Sorry, don't understand. This is nothing that needs a decision right now, i can not make up my mind if i want to. Is the concept of "This topic currently has no clear answer" so alien? If we were forced to decide something now, we'd obviously go with your view, but we are not...
(DIR) Post #AcEvRmtzlhkiNnoFbk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:12:14Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven huh? who said you need an answer now.. if anything the opposite, the fact that you presented it without having through through it is more the concern than not having an answer.
(DIR) Post #AcEvyB4jQdSWcaHB7g by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-27T18:17:57Z
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@freemo You might have a little high expectations for spontaneous social media discussions... And i find it helps to discuss half-clear thoughts to get a better idea. I could just shut up about the things i am not 100% sure of, but then i would generate new understanding at a fraction of what i get now. In any case, i am not saying "i am right", just "i'll need to think on this some more". Maybe you'll get some new interesting thought from me some time, maybe just "you were right", maybe it gets forgotten with apocalyptic stuff all around. Who knows. What i do know is that not everything i say is the result of a long thought process, aka as final as possible. I do have creative thoughts that sometimes are just crap ^^
(DIR) Post #AcF0usxSpacVKl7ssS by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-27T19:13:32Z
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@freemo Blocked here on non-nazi Mastodon? If so, two theories:I would think you run into very few righties. For various historical reasons, culturally this place is dominated, politically, by the identarian left. One of my least favorite things about the id-left is they sorta don't tolerate dissent. In US politics it's probably the most significant anti-free-speech group. (speech is violence, etc, etc)Second: we righties here on Mastodon can't really afford to block anyone, we're getting blocked so much that if we did we'd have nothing in our feeds.
(DIR) Post #AcF1OQ0H33oeDhWTxo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T19:18:50Z
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@ech Blocked here on non-nazi Mastodon? If so, two theories:It has not been an expiernce limited to mastodon in any way. I would think you run into very few righties.Both here and in general I probably run into at least as many if more righties. The reason for it here is that the left is so quick to block people that myself not being an extreme lefty but a moderate has me blocked by the majority of the left and triggered pretty much the whole of the right. So I hear from the right quite often. For various historical reasons, culturally this place is dominated, politically, by the identarian left.Overall I’d tend to agree there is somewhat more left than right on the fedi. But that means little when it comes to my view of it which is clearly tinted by my personality. One of my least favorite things about the id-left is they sorta don’t tolerate dissent. In US politics it’s probably the most significant anti-free-speech group. (speech is violence, etc, etc)Agreed, which is why we have such extreme polarization, if you are even remotely moderate you will be attacked. Second: we righties here on Mastodon can’t really afford to block anyone, we’re getting blocked so much that if we did we’d have nothing in our feeds.I mean there are plenty of right-wing instances, explicitly so.. The problem i find is that the right is complete garbage on here just like the left is.. so you probably dont want to hang out with that crowd as it constitutes some of the most obnoxious instances, most of the free speech instances where hatespeech is the norm.
(DIR) Post #AcF3DhG2kyNESLuk52 by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-27T19:39:21Z
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@freemo “free speech instances where hatespeech is the norm” yeah this is what I was getting at by saying “non-nazi Mastodon”. There are certainly plenty of instances like that.And a certain population of non-hate righty instances/users/content, of course.But if you browse like mastodon.com/explore unlogged-in or whatever, I feel like it definitely has a id-left tilt, at least relative to US’ overall political distribution. Just a guess, I suspect maybe you don’t see this usually because (a) don’t browse there and (b) are blocked by lots of them by this point anyway 😂
(DIR) Post #AcF3L9uQd7BrLOMWAa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-27T19:40:29Z
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@ech yea sadly there are few moderate right wingers on mastodon, and im sure part of that is because they are treated like extremists by showing any hint of a right lean.