Post Ac3H6M4CDI92ASFMq8 by katrintheresa@cyberplace.social
(DIR) More posts by katrintheresa@cyberplace.social
(DIR) Post #Ac2varHgVuhwgPhDv6 by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-21T23:17:04Z
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*stares in My Entire Dissertation*https://futurism.com/openai-employees-say-firms-chief-scientist-has-been-making-strange-spiritual-claims
(DIR) Post #Ac2vyh9zo2l8EZSx8K by JenWojcik@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:21:22Z
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@Wolven Now I want to read your dissertation.
(DIR) Post #Ac2w3HLVD8i9cV29Uu by kcarruthers@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:22:10Z
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@Wolven 🤣
(DIR) Post #Ac2wMdj4E6a0X5HupU by Peternimmo@mastodon.scot
2023-11-21T23:25:43Z
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@Wolven not a cult...
(DIR) Post #Ac2xM3S3C5cBz2c5zM by breadbin@bitbang.social
2023-11-21T23:36:44Z
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@Wolven Chanting… yeah that’s fully ok crazy right there.
(DIR) Post #Ac2xd0j4a2iWSBf1w8 by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-21T23:39:51Z
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@JenWojcik Then you're in luck! https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/handle/10919/111528
(DIR) Post #Ac2xjuRULCxezaj1wu by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-21T23:41:05Z
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If you want to understand where a very large swathe of "AI" research and development are, today, then you very seriously need to engage with religious studies and mythology — and understand that I don't mean "mythology" in the pejorative sense of "falseness" or "fantasy;" I mean it in the sense of "animating beliefs," or "fundamental guiding narrative."https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/handle/10919/111528
(DIR) Post #Ac2y5nAk3Gs4ocKJkG by JenWojcik@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:44:09Z
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@Wolven Hell yeah! Thanks!
(DIR) Post #Ac2yAbCpy9c79PbCNs by mwl@io.mwl.io
2023-11-21T23:45:42Z
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@Wolven I cannot think of anything more mythological than "the creation of intelligent life." Even if you put "life" in quotes or define it broadly.
(DIR) Post #Ac2yC5Z0aO0taogCiO by dawnnafus@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:43:39Z
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@Wolven This!!!Been saying just this for quite a while! 100% agree. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053951717751552
(DIR) Post #Ac2yCDXAx5IiJRsqy8 by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-21T23:45:45Z
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@dawnnafus Very much same. Thanks for the link
(DIR) Post #Ac2yxlvusIk0bs8Eoi by guncelawits@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:54:51Z
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@Wolven Heuristic: “Ninety billion dollars can’t be right.”
(DIR) Post #Ac2z44Cjr5vd0z0BBQ by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-21T23:55:48Z
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@guncelawits that number makes me want to vomit
(DIR) Post #Ac2z6coS9ZyevhrWu8 by MichaelTBacon@social.coop
2023-11-21T23:56:14Z
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@Wolven Aw damn I totally am going to have to read that now. I was just earlier thinking today about AI and the trend towards sectarian behavior by its proponents, alongside Latour's "belief in belief" among other things. (On the Modern Cult of Factish Gods also came to mind.)Very glad to dive into someone who's already gone there full tilt!
(DIR) Post #Ac2z91zbVSQjbRE2TI by guncelawits@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:56:38Z
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@Wolven 👊🏻
(DIR) Post #Ac2zAC41XykN7zqaMC by violetmadder@kolektiva.social
2023-11-21T23:56:43Z
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@WolvenOhhh. Oh, wow.It's a cult that doesn't even know how to recognize a cult.In deciding we're all super scientific now and don't need religion, we're throwing an awful lot of spiritual and moral baby out with that superstition bathwater...
(DIR) Post #Ac2ztCKpNzxR03AOtk by redezem@aus.social
2023-11-22T00:05:10Z
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@Wolven @JenWojcik I’ve read the abstract and I like it already
(DIR) Post #Ac2zuduiKmXsp7dogq by brianstorms@mastodon.social
2023-11-22T00:05:19Z
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@Wolven Imagine a condo HOA governing an AI company
(DIR) Post #Ac32JAmzxHCTdxrBh2 by matthewmaybe@sigmoid.social
2023-11-22T00:32:20Z
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@Wolven đź‘€ https://sigmoid.social/@lumanai/111449472856294350
(DIR) Post #Ac37CJZNPYxqcR2CMS by MichaelTBacon@social.coop
2023-11-22T00:33:24Z
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@Wolven I'm loving this so far, by the way. The lit review has so many old friends in it where I want them to be but so many rich new perspectives that I hadn't come across before.
(DIR) Post #Ac37CN0mc7fZIIsczo by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T01:27:03Z
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@MichaelTBacon Hey thank you for that! I really appreciate it
(DIR) Post #Ac3EeRlREl85oz2P3Y by conductor@hachyderm.io
2023-11-22T02:50:36Z
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@Wolven And everyone at OpenAI seemed pretty content to tolerate literal ritual worship of AGI until Sutskever turned on Sam Altman.They're leaking it to make him look foolish now, but I see no evidence any of them were concerned about this a week ago.
(DIR) Post #Ac3FMRyBpkG9CVz6fo by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T02:58:38Z
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@conductor They all have metaphysical commitments they don't want out in the open. Religious, ritual, and mythic belief and structures undergird ever single part of the "AI" project.
(DIR) Post #Ac3GzDMeAcgH9OTLay by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T03:16:48Z
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(Relatedly, if you don't recognize that Altman's and Sutskiver's metaphysical commitments are the same and that their actions toward building "AI" therefore arise from the same place, then you're still missing the crux of it)
(DIR) Post #Ac3H6M4CDI92ASFMq8 by katrintheresa@cyberplace.social
2023-11-22T03:17:59Z
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@Wolven I need to read these articles. Bookmarking them.
(DIR) Post #Ac3HphSVWaq3XsEyUy by conductor@hachyderm.io
2023-11-22T03:26:17Z
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@Wolven For sure. I think the shamelessness with which they openly and proudly talk about clearly metaphysical ideas like superintelligence, singularity, and alignment maybe caused me to underestimate how much more they were not trumpeting openly.
(DIR) Post #Ac3Jtou7z5WXhhFgoa by Jackiemauro@fosstodon.org
2023-11-22T03:49:26Z
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@Wolven also helps explain the instinctive “ick” I get from these guys that wouldn’t be warranted if they were just building a new technology in a secular framework.
(DIR) Post #Ac3QQ1hYXVH8Nx713g by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T05:02:31Z
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Also also, way too many of you are still taking this as "those poor benighted deluded fools who believe in the spiritual" rather than understanding what I'm actually saying:All "AI," from the beginning, has and has always had religious and mythological resonances woven through it. The term "metaphysical commitments" is a particular philosophical phrasing which speaks to what people think the fundamental nature of reality is like, and also the fundamental nature of any particular Part of reality. That is, what framing of reality you are *Committed* to based upon what you say you are doing or what you say you think is possible.We every single one of us have metaphysical commitments.And we are every single one of us doing work with valuative and religious connotations, every single time we engage in any part of the world, but most especially technology.Hope that clears things up.
(DIR) Post #Ac3QtHyH80UpF6syxs by bullfinch@ioc.exchange
2023-11-22T05:07:44Z
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@Wolven Its interesting to hear the sense of wonder that goes into their voices about AI without understanding much about how it works. In some respects, its like Frankenstein and the nowhere-near-as-smart monster.
(DIR) Post #Ac3VYU6NKafSYSZctk by burgerdrome@aus.social
2023-11-22T05:59:55Z
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@Wolven I've been following your work on this since hearing you on Stuff They Don't Want You To Know bloody YEARS ago, your conceptualisation of eg search engines as oracles completely reframed my approach to tech. No real point here just wanted to say keep up the good work
(DIR) Post #Ac3WTIQhOtdSrPAaYK by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T06:10:20Z
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@burgerdrome Thank you for that; I appreciate it
(DIR) Post #Ac3dlj1lwq6sFCFGee by xdydx@mastodon.social
2023-11-22T07:32:02Z
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@Wolven @JenWojcik Did you see also this? https://www.programmablemutter.com/p/look-at-scientology-to-understandI've now read more about #AGI and #religion these last two days than I wanted to consume in a month.
(DIR) Post #Ac3e8wp8otd3h1PVtA by rood@aus.social
2023-11-22T07:36:17Z
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@Wolven that's what scares me about getting into any brute force technology like this. You're painting by numbers in a (natural world) machine that spent eons painting heavily reviewed art into reality.Thinking I'm going to embrace and extend through technology is as toxic as corporations just looking for profit in a natural world.Pandora's box is not a character arc. It's a doom cult.
(DIR) Post #Ac3l7OafJTGquQqXlQ by jakob@pxi.social
2023-11-22T08:54:25Z
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@Wolven @dawnnafus this lens is quite useful in other domains of society, too, where a construct of belief structures can become more relevant than the thing itself.Understanding the foundational mythology of "democracy" in the context of post-democracy or governance breakdown was a recent example I came across.In your research, did you find some patterns what happens when mythology is threatened? Something like "When Prophecy Fails"?
(DIR) Post #Ac3qDWutlhQsF13SSm by PoppyPorter@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-22T09:51:25Z
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@Wolven yes, you’re making me think about where AI is being used. It has crash landed in areas that are intimately connected with religion, the spiritual, and the expression of ourselves as human, that of art. It makes me think what is art for if an AI can just produce an image or text in seconds? Then I think about the lion man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-man why was that made, what calls a person to make it? AI is not just tech, & shouldn’t be thought of that way.
(DIR) Post #Ac3sNaLA5tgvfCGHku by jpaskaruk@growers.social
2023-11-22T10:15:42Z
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@Wolven This feels a lot like the time a friend with poor grasp of boundaries informed me that I was the most "spiritual" person he knows, and I told him to take that sign off me.The trip is, he argued with me about it, at one point he defined "spiritual" using the dictionary definition of "intellectual" - he was not wrong about my characteristics, just abusing language to forcefully graft his personal religion onto me.Your talk of religious connotations is equally sloppy.
(DIR) Post #Ac4I2MJvcdjiuODwpc by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T15:03:14Z
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@jpaskaruk or you could actually read what i and others have written, both in the pholilosophical and religious scholarship, recognize that you can be influenced by and steeped in things you don't consciously accept of believe, and understand that people know different things than you. Have a good one!
(DIR) Post #Ac4INGedsoMlPvsn32 by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T15:06:45Z
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@jakob @dawnnafus in my dissertation, i point to some of the reactionary violence that can happen along axes of epistemic threat, ontological shock, and existential threat.
(DIR) Post #Ac4IY1T0gsNhV0ZQ1I by Wolven@ourislandgeorgia.net
2023-11-22T15:08:56Z
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@kbusse there's a lot of good work by Beth Singler, Kanta Dihal, and Sarah Dillon on this. Starting with them will get you some great places
(DIR) Post #Ac4JNyybCAVkpj7cwa by jakob@pxi.social
2023-11-22T15:18:22Z
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@Wolven @dawnnafus do you engage in qualifying the mythologies (I think there is some overlap with world views) akin to something Schurz tried with his force triangle? true/false vs right/wrong vs beautiful/uglyDoing so works pretty well to predict outputs: say, interpreting fascist ideology as a primacy of aesthetics, where it is morally right to commit atrocities and truth conditions yield to a higher power of a predetermined beautiful natural order of things.https://philpapers.org/rec/SCHWUR
(DIR) Post #Ac4Kmlq9Gy31HlYMLI by zenkat@sfba.social
2023-11-22T15:34:01Z
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@Wolven This looks amazing. Def on my reading list.
(DIR) Post #Ac4X00O7h4u7cUWPJY by cypherfox@mas.to
2023-11-22T17:50:53Z
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@Wolven Eight months ago I wrote a brief post about language models and such, which included this:“I don’t like calling it AI; people layer too much meaning into that term. We have a fear of demons, and dark bargains for all our history, and all our cultures. LLMs are not that.”What I hadn’t anticipated is that the OpenAI folks _bought in_ to that framing, either consciously or not.Your dissertation looks _fascinating_ although reading papers outside my area of expertise is always fraught.
(DIR) Post #Ac4srspM7Q2sqTn9lo by macedotavares@pkm.social
2023-11-22T21:55:21Z
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@Wolven I first saw this in Eliezer Yudkowsky and the LessWrong crowd. In that instance, however, I had the feeling that all the dramatism was used to push their utilitarian let’s-donate-to-MIRI grift.