Post Ac2sZLrVYVOh4p2ffE by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
(DIR) More posts by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
(DIR) Post #Ac2eI8ClgFI6RGsfzc by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T20:03:22.895548Z
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#Poland truckers blockade of border crossings with #Ukraine is a complex issue in which I have an impression none of the parties involved say the whole truth. The protests were recently joined by transport companies from Slovakia and Hungary.[^1] And then they were joined by Polish farmers, who in summer protested against sales of Ukrainian grain in Poland.Poland truckers demands boil down to restoring system of licenses for Ukrainian transport companies to operate in EU or at least enforcing the existing rules.[^2] Currently, as I understand, according to European Commission the licenses for Ukrainian transport companies were removed in the EU-Ukraine association agreement.[^1] But the liberalisation had several important limitations, most importantly Ukrainian companies cannot legally move loads between EU countries.[^2] Which, Polish truckers argue, they do all the time, ignoring all existing certifications and licenses, which are enforced on Polish companies. And because neither Ukrainians salaries nor technical standards need to satisfy the same EU requirements as Poles, they are much cheaper and as result they took away a lion share in the transports inside EU. In addition, Ukrainian ministry of transport did not mutually liberalise access of EU truckers to Ukrainian market.[^2]I checked some #Ukraine Radio NV interviews about the protests, but they’re disappointingly shallow. They say the protest is driven by a “tiny organisation with ties to Russia”, but it’s not - it’s organised by ZMPD, one of the Poland’s largest.[^3] They admit Polish truckers are refused access to Ukrainian online system and harassed by road police, and they don’t really refer to the core issues by Poles. At the same time another article calls the Polish truckers “far right”, illustrating this with a post by their spokesman Rafał Mekler who explains the core issues in quite a detail, which is entirely skipped in Ukrainian article. Of course, Mekler also makes a few racist allusions towards Ukraine’s minister of transport who was allegedly born in Kabul.[^4]All that is really sad and disappointing, granted that it not only stops strategic goods flowing to Ukraine right now, but also undermines the future cooperation with Ukraine in EU.[^1]: https://www.rp.pl/dyplomacja/art39440821-protest-na-granicy-polski-z-ukraina-polski-rzad-popieral-umowe-ktora-go-wywolala[^2]: https://www.money.pl/gospodarka/polscy-przewoznicy-walcza-o-przetrwanie-ukrainskie-sluzby-traktuja-nas-jak-bankomaty-6965073155885824a.html[^3]: https://www.obozrevatel.com/ukr/ekonomika-glavnaya/analytics-and-forecasts/ukraina-ta-polscha-pozivatimutsya-do-strajkariv-yaki-zablokuvali-kordon.htm[^4]: https://www.obozrevatel.com/ukr/ekonomika-glavnaya/economy/polski-ultrapravi-zablokuvali-kordon-z-ukrainoyu-perevizniki-namagalisya-domovitisya-ale-situatsiya-ne-pokraschala.htm
(DIR) Post #Ac2jJoNYrZuJIeY9ey by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T20:08:09Z
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@kravietz Just truck drivers and farmers being truck drivers and farmers: selfish, egocentric and ruthless... Nothing new. They care about no one else. They're happy to let their neighbours die to make a point. 🤷
(DIR) Post #Ac2jJpK3M6hAE3urpY by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-21T20:24:29Z
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@joaocosta With such dismissive takes you're refusing to understand the social tangle, without a proper understanding you'd resort to sweeping it under some carpet, not the best way to address the issue.That's why empathy/compassion are paramount to dealing with such complex social/political issues.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2jJq8OKwxekBT4IC by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T20:41:00Z
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@polezaivsaniI'm sure Ukrainian people will address the issue just as you say, because they have no other choice but to be diplomatic and patient.So I'll call the issue of Polish, Hungarian and other farmers blockade as it is: selfish, dangerous, greedy and ruthless. They don't care that they're safe because Ukrainians die every day fighting, keeping russian war criminals at bay. All they care about is to make a point and ignore all consequences. Their approach is disgusting.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2jJqubRhWf9i1ZRI by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T20:59:41.700004Z
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@joaocosta The Polish and Slovak truckers say they lost all orders to Ukrainian truckers who bend the rules, and that’s why they are spending time on the border - they don’t have anything else to do. I don’t know if that’s true but if it is, then it’s hard to accuse them of “selfishness”. The truck drivers aren’t soldiers, they’re making money. And if they are unwilling to make money in a way respecting other players on the market, nobody will make any.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2jJrGa7z6gFsJ7hI by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-21T20:34:01Z
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@joaocosta case in point, there was a paper on how some Asian farmers operated community owned rice fields with horizontal organisational structures only, and they did in about the most efficient way possible. Don't have the reference at hand.
(DIR) Post #Ac2jf4p6v14oNlZlaK by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T21:03:26.727016Z
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@joaocosta Why block thousands of trucks before trying to talkWhy do think they haven’t tried to talk? When looking at the sources I saw a clear pattern of the Polish truckers actually trying to talk, for months. First they expressed their concerns to European Commission when it extended the unlicensed transports in June 2023. Then they negotiated with Ukrainian ministry of transport through the Polish counterpart. Then they said they were ignored on all levels and they will resort to blocking the border. They said it a month ago already.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2k9h1TSUizXjxRMe by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T21:02:35Z
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@kravietzSure. And they couldn't have raised their grievances in a civilised way with their unions and the authorities? Let's not be naïve, there's something else going on here.Don't they understand the damage this is causing? Are they idiots?@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2k9hqWOhYe63qCvo by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T21:09:05.842933Z
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@joaocosta Don’t they understand the damage this is causing? Are they idiots?You could just as well ask exactly the same question to the Ukrainian truckers who break the agreement with EU, and the Ukrainian road police who forces foreign trucks to pay bribes, and Ukrainian ministry of transport who causes them all kinds of problems - are they idiots, don’t they understand the damage they’re causing? As you’ve probably noticed, I’m 100% for Ukraine against Russian aggression, but these behaviours are precisely the “Russian world” Ukraine is fighting against. As I said before, Ukrainian road police aren’t soldiers, and their enemy isn’t EU truckers - they’re just corrupt, greedy bastards, who can’t get USSR out of their heads, even if it’s hurting their country.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2kAtHfMDe7rO6PsO by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-21T20:49:43Z
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@joaocosta Sure they're selfish, just as most everybody else. You'd get much more leeway if you where to understand their motives, which I'm sure are not of pure selfishness.Admittedly, I have no idea what the involved parties have on their minds. Just rooting to not resort for any extreme judgements, which rarely help.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2mnVeHMmHZl6Dpr6 by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T21:10:48Z
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@kravietzExcellent. Perhaps Ukraine should close the taps on russian gas then, given that, as you say, the guys in Eastern Europe are hollier than thou, and have been let down.Guess who's still funding the Russian war budget?@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2mnWSyKIpeIJwJs0 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T21:38:41.530138Z
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@joaocosta I don’t quite understand why you insist that abusive practices by some Ukrainian businesses and government officials (customs, road cops) are OK, when they’re clearly not OK?@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2mpuruZQiiYWkKI4 by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-21T21:15:19Z
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@joaocosta> Guess who's still funding the Russian war budget?I'd wager it's India, maybe China would come second. EU iiuc isn't the biggest buyer of their fossils no more.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2mpvZ9ydJaieyrhY by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T21:20:47Z
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@polezaivsani"Despite promise to wean off Moscow’s fuels, Spain and France are second and third largest buyers of liquified natural gas behind China.Europe’s second-largest purchaser was France with shipments worth €1.5 billion arriving in its ports, while Belgium followed closely behind buying €1.36 billion worth of Russian LNG.Some of Kyiv’s most ardent backers in Europe, including Estonia and Lithuania, also continued to send money to Moscow for LNG."https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/18/eu-sanctions-loophole-russia-gas-putin-moscow/ @kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2mpwPcpZHZLNWlTk by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T21:21:57Z
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@polezaivsani @kravietz So what do you guys think? Shall Ukrainians close the taps that fund Putin's war? Is that a good enough reason? Or are cheap potatoes on trucks more important? 🤷
(DIR) Post #Ac2mpxGndroi0IPEMS by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-21T21:27:59Z
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@joaocosta I'd like to think that whoever would be making a call on this, would have a detailed understanding of the effect this would cause on both sides of the pipe.If there weher a valve to turn this war off, I'd be shutting it already.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2mpy0ssWgEJDy2C0 by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T21:32:25Z
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@polezaivsaniI'd agree with you, but then I'm reminded of just how powerful fossil fuel lobbyists are, and how powerless and compromised politicians are to get rid of them. It's all very weak, very shortsighted and clearly far from what's needed to squeeze the Russian budget.Anyway. I don't trust those guys blockading roads. There's a clear parallel with Brexit vibes and, ultimately, it benefits Putin and his murderous regime. That's a bad, bad strategy for Poland.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2mpypvojVsrXqnlA by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-21T21:38:39Z
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@joaocosta Back to truckers, the less understanding there would be here, the wider the gap of misunderstanding, the easier it'd be for Putin to abuse it for his own cause. That's a prominent tactic of theirs to try and exploit any conflict to tear social fabric apart.Countering it alone is a terrific reason to seek to understand each other's motives better. @kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac2sZLrVYVOh4p2ffE by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T21:50:45Z
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@kravietzI'm not. What I'm saying is that blocking the border is a reckless, selfish and damaging approach, and not the way to sort this out. It's a lose lose situation, therefore, stupid and shortsighted.That Ukrainians are desperate and do stuff like that is understandable. That Polish, Hungarian and Slovakian do it is not. There's got to be a better way.If only they were as efficient at blockading goods and electronic parts in and out of Russia, eh?...@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2sZMq7v7t26pP59M by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T22:43:22.125168Z
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@joaocosta That Ukrainians are desperate and do stuff like that is understandableYou apply an entirely unjustified generalisation here. There’s Ukrainians in trenches on the front line, there’s Ukrainians under Russian bombs in Kherson and Kharkiv, and there’s Ukrainians partying in Odessa or Lviv, and Ukrainians taking bribes, Ukrainians hitting soldiers on streets while driving drunk in Kyiv or Ukrainians selling humanitarian donations.Justifying actions of the second group by the suffering of the first group is completely wrong. Because it’s in the first place Ukrainians who feel betrayed by the actions of the second group, and seeing how unfair it is. Ukrainians who illegally sold grain cheap or illegally made transports around EU belong to the second group and have nothing to do with “desperation”.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2slobGXAhxgIO7AO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T22:45:37.560042Z
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@joaocosta that blocking the border is a reckless, selfish and damaging approachIt is. But to understand why they resorted to such a “damaging approach” you have to remember that first their complaints were consistently ignored for nearly half year by Ukraine, Poland and European Commission. This ignorance - entirely unjustified - is what led directly to the ongoing blockade.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2wBscGWZorWpyZ7o by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T22:56:29Z
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@kravietzI do understand their approach. And I think it is reckless, selfish and stupid. It is also illegal. As I said earlier, it's typical of those guys to adopt a bullish approach: erect a wall, close the border, shut the doors, close the gates, etc.We're getting nowhere. 🤷Thanks for the chat.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2wBtvndR2Tbi7gDA by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T23:23:56.146450Z
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@joaocostaThe only reason why people are getting nowhere is when they, rather than trying to solve the problem, they just blame each other of being "reckless, selfish and stupid".This is precisely the case with the border crossing and, earlier, the grain.If EC, Polish and Ukrainian governments listened to the concerns and responded to them, we would never even read about these scandals in the news. Instead, for months, they denied the problems and apparently hoped that they "resolve on their own".That's why they got the blockades today. And while I understand everyone's anger at the people at the border, I don't understand why everyone is not equally angry at the greedy idiots who caused it.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2wn3fqNJGwXQNTDU by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T22:50:17Z
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@kravietzHow do you know? Do you know them? Their stories? Their motivations?And even so, every country has corrupt people taking advantage of situations. Corruption in Poland, Hungary and Slovakia is huge. Do we close the borders on them? No.A few bad apples is no reason to close borders between countries forcefully, especially not with a country at war, at a disadvantage, with a wrecked economy, fighting against your enemy alone.Blocking those borders is wrong. Simple.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2wn4aux6vTOR53B2 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T23:30:40.337241Z
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@joaocostaYes, I know life story and motivation of pretty much every corrupt road cop in Russia and Ukraine.It starts with their parents bribing teachers to pass school exams because they're too dumb to pass them on their own. After school they pay a bribe to get a job at police. Then they work at the road stopping random cars and extorting bribes. They keep 50% and 50% goes to their officer. The officer does the same with his boss etc. Some units set a constant amount they need to pay, which forces them to work really hard and be really merciless in their extortion. Of course, the word "forces" is figurative because nobody forces you to work as a road cop. It's just greed.That's how it works in Russia and Ukraine. One of the main causes for the war is to make sure Ukraine no longer looks like Russia in this aspect.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2wyCGukSuYOD1onI by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T23:32:41.218454Z
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@joaocostaAnd no, it's never about "a few bad apples". It's about what people and governments *do* with these bad apples. In Russia they protect them and make them princes. The point of the war is that it doesn't happen in Ukraine.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2x6CGidzTAhEkfLs by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T23:32:39Z
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@kravietzI'll tell you why: because no one dies when someone smuggles grain or food cheaply into a country. It happens all over the world with all sorts of products. But people do die when supplies are cut and blocked for weeks during the most brutal and difficult war since WWII.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2x6D0nseKh0AJTBQ by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T23:34:06.999289Z
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@joaocostaDoes anyone die if cheap grain is not exported from Ukraine to be illegally sold in Poland at dumping prices? @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2xKcxAECcXVlUBd2 by tom_andraszek@mastodon.social
2023-11-21T23:32:40Z
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@joaocosta - did you know that Ukrainian railways were blocking the transit of goods to Poland from 30 Nov 2021 until almost the start of the war?You have zero empathy for Polish farmers and truckers whose livelihood is in danger by illegal import of food to Poland, by illegal blocking of Polish truckers in Ukraine (12 day waits for permit to leave), by illegal activities of Ukrainian truckers in the EU.Such attitude turns Poles from the most supportive to lukewarm, or hostile.
(DIR) Post #Ac2y2HAsYvRuhuiLh2 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T23:44:36.989090Z
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@tom_andraszekI didn't know about this railway ban... It comes our Poles have really demonstrated a lot of patience and solidarity in 2022, even against their own interests.And I recall a quote from the Parafianowicz book I quoted recently. He's interviewing one Polish minister who was on a war room meeting in Warsaw in April 2022. Head of Polish border force stood up and delivered his update, mentioning that the bribes have returned on Ukrainian side of the border. Everyone laughed that this clearly indicates the situation in Ukraine is back to normal.My support for Ukrainian army is full and unconditional. But this doesn't mean I don't despise corrupt officials in any country, including Ukraine. Or even especially in Ukraine, because if you can't respect your own country even at war time, how do you expect anyone else to respect you?@joaocosta
(DIR) Post #Ac2yEBGkLOeJrp8SIa by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T23:41:38Z
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@kravietzThe point of the war is to stop an imperialist regime from taking over former Soviet lands. Blocking supplies to Ukraine makes it harder. Simple.But yeah, for us blissful superior saints in the EU, where corruption only ever happens to others, it's a great reason to lecture the people actually dying to defend those values.Poland, Hungary and Slovakia lecturing Ukraine on corruption would be like Lukashenko lecturing Putin on democracy. Laughable hypocrisy. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac2yEC9L4QJmb8g3OK by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-21T23:46:46.257505Z
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@joaocostaDidn't know Gerhard Schroeder was Hungarian 🤔 To me he's the world reference point as it comes to corruption, don't you agree?@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac30RkC20bezr3WcZU by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-21T23:47:27Z
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@kravietzDefinitely!@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac51OpHF8dyR1Z3UBc by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-11-22T23:31:51Z
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@kravietz @polezaivsani @joaocosta Turns out it could be more complicated than that: https://social.kyiv.dcomm.net.ua/@September_UA/111456523589452510That's no definite proof of Russia's involvement of course, a lot of people who take part in such protests maintain ties to their local political parties who might've been friendly towards Russia, before the war some could even appear on RT using it as an extra opportunity to be heard, but that's still something to consider. Russia's agents in Europe are extremely cunning!
(DIR) Post #Ac56qk1Mm0zWbNl8fQ by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-23T00:32:54Z
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@m0xee I'd love for @kravietz to chime in on whether that sounds legit.The part about Kremlin's impostor do seem to enjoy the asymmetry of the consequences they face around EU. Within Russia such agents would be round up or otherwise exploited w/o any regard for civic norms. Their Russian puppets are subject to the kind of due diligence they don't deserve. Hope they get so much derision to turn their ill gains into fool's gold. Schwap 🪄.@joaocosta
(DIR) Post #Ac5l2133nqBIlNTz5k by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T08:02:59.030519Z
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@polezaivsani @m0xee What they write about “Konfederacja” in general is largely true, although linking Mekler to Korwin-Mikke visiting Crimea etc is a bit too far stretch - it’s a classic non sequitur. In other words, the article suggests that the sole reason for the protest is because #Russia told “Konfederacja” to go and block the border crossing which is a bit infantile in this case. The whole article dedicates plenty of attention to these possible conspiracies but makes literally zero mentions of the actual demands… except for this one phrase, using scare quotes:demanding “fair competition”At the same time if you look at what #Mekler and the Polish transport companies say, they mention very specific issues with Ukrainian companies in EU - he doesn’t rant about Volhynia, “Ukrainisation of Poland” and other such propaganda topics typical for “Konfederacja”. His criticism is quite specific and technical. They don’t even demand removal of Ukrainian companies from EU market, just equal requirements for them and existing EU companies (see the screenshot). Interestingly, the below screenshot from Mekler was posted by Obozrevatel[^1]… except the article doesn’t discuss these issues at all either.So I find the fact Ukrainian media willingly ignore the actual issues and reduce all the argument to “Russians told them to protest” which is disingenuous.[^1]: https://www.obozrevatel.com/ukr/ekonomika-glavnaya/economy/polski-ultrapravi-zablokuvali-kordon-z-ukrainoyu-perevizniki-namagalisya-domovitisya-ale-situatsiya-ne-pokraschala.htm@joaocosta
(DIR) Post #Ac5tou3VOEnwtkVrXc by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T08:24:47Z
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@kravietzThis is clearly biased in favour of Mekler, and fails to note Mekler is pro-Russian, has visited occupied Crimea and met with the Russian puppet leader there, is a member of the pro-Russian Confederation of Freedom and Independence, which is also closely linked to another pro-Russian organisation, All-Polish Youth, which helped recruit fighters for "DPR" and "LPR".As I wrote elsewhere, this business stinks of Russian subversion.https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3790330-russian-intelligence-could-be-involved-in-blockade-of-border-crossings-with-ukraine-in-poland-investigation.html @polezaivsani @m0xee@librem.one
(DIR) Post #Ac5tousuJ7vBTAYuf2 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T09:40:55.710462Z
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@joaocostaIt's not Mekler who visited Crimea, these are two different people. Korwin-Mikke is a prominent old-school politician who had supporting Putin for years, to he extent that he became toxic for "Konfederacja". In the last elections they actually had to put him aside as he was losing them votes as support for Ukraine in Poland is very high. He is the one who visited not only Crimea but also Chechnya. Mekler is primarily into transport business and a regional activist of the party. He publicly denied he ever was in Crimea after this accusation was raised by Ukrainian journalists:https://twitter.com/MeklerRafal/status/1727...So they either made the same mistake by mixing Mekler with Korwin-Mikke, or they are intentionally misleading the public — or Mekler is lying, but that would be trivial to prove.On the contrary, he was saying the same thing since May (!):https://twitter.com/MeklerRafal/status/1654...He says that while Ukrainian drivers operate in EU with no permits and even under some kind of political umbrella (understandable at war time), Polish drivers in Ukraine are being fined by Ukrainian services for lack of permits, which should have been removed under the same EU-Ukraine association treaty. Notably, he uses no "geopolitics" or other bullshit arguments Russians love, he's just talking business.Nobody in Ukraine so far replied to that, they just seem to ignore it, which understandably pisses of Poles. And saying "let's not talk about it, because we're at war" is the worst way to deal with the problem because war is irrelevant to what Ukrainian customs are doing on the western border.Russia of course loves this conflict, but to me it's rather clear it's not Russians who created it.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac5tovpkmKzcPg5uNs by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T08:31:13Z
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@kravietzThat the concerns are legitimate is nothing new. Fascism always starts with genuine concerns and unfairness. Their criticisms are often justified, but it is their actions and solutions that show their true intentions.In this case, as discussed elsewhere, blocking the border is not acceptable. It is illegal and detrimental to Ukraine's fight against Russia. So, naturally, it now appears that the people pushing for this blocade are pro-Russian and on Russian payroll. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac5uEwesKrhwV2PUrw by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T09:45:45.247258Z
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@joaocostaIn response to the "fascism" argument which only wins you the Godwin's prize, I can only ask the same question I always ask to the proponents of "talking with Russia to end the war": so what do you propose the Polish truck drivers should do when facing unfair competition by Ukrainian companies inside EU and repressions inside Ukraine? 🤔@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac5vhAt97ayohE6skq by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T09:58:39Z
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@kravietzThey should take it in stages: if they're being ignored, protest. Get polititians on their side. Raise it in parliament, go on TV etc. There are so many ways to get voices heard before deciding to forcefully close the border with a neighbouring country. It's extremist, and out of proportion. Hence the suspicions I have, because, as we know, Russia tries really hard to isolate Ukraine.That's the Lenin and Stalin playbook: control the logistics to dominate a country.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac5vhBhq57WtERpMlk by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T10:02:31.822891Z
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@joaocosta They should take it in stages: if they’re being ignored, protest.Great advice! They’ve been doing it since May. Didn’t work. Now what?@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac61eg4FLEzCFiUj7g by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T10:17:45Z
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@kravietzNo they haven't. Everytime truck drivers have a problem, they block the roads. This is common practice everywhere in the world, no problem: macho men "taking back control" as though they own the road.But there is a problem when a country at war heavily reliant on the few borders they have left have them shut.They did this last year too, about some veterinary stuff. It's always the same. Inconsiderate, reckless, lawless and selfish behaviour.https://interfax.com/newsroom/top-stories/82890/@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac61egogYa8IZkDoVU by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T11:09:18.113148Z
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@joaocosta No they haven’t.You’re either not reading, or ignoring what is being said. I have provided you with detailed evidence that they did specifically what you recommended.The protests started in May 2023 (!) but nobody blocked any roads yet - there were numerous appeals, petitions, in October they issued warning (!) about upcoming blockade which was going to start in early November (!), which they then pushed forward to mid-November, hoping there will be some agreement reached. There also were numerous talks on the Polish-Ukrainian government level, meetings with Ukrainian transport minister, all long before the November blockade started. This is what you recommended:There are so many ways to get voices heard before deciding to forcefully close the border with a neighbouring country.This protest was happening 100% per your recipe, so why you suddenly complain it happened?There was plenty of opportunities to resolve the issue. The protesters say Ukrainian authorities simply ignored them or denied to acknowledge the problem, which - after reading rather ignorant reports in Ukrainian media - I consider plausible.I understand you may be experiencing a cognitive dissonance with the whole situation and struggling to put everyone into “good vs bad” boxes, but sometimes it’s just much more complex than that.The cultural problem here is that Poles are just like Ukrainians - when faced with aggravated injustice, they won’t sit and wait passively for situation to “resolve itself” like Russians do. They just go into the streets and then they don’t give a shit. That’s precisely what Euromaidan was about. Telling these protesters they’re driven by Moscow is just as effective as telling people on Maidan they were driven by CIA. Ignoring them, like Ukrainian authorities do today, is the best way for the protest to only escalate.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac640XoKv62uvMbiwi by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T11:30:06Z
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@kravietzIncorrect.There was a 🇺🇦🇵🇱 agreement in late April. In May, the EU allowed, exceptionally, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and Slovakia to restrict imports of grain from Ukraine.This expired in September, and was not renewed. Hungary, Slovakia and Poland governments said they'd extend the ban unilaterally against EU policy, so Ukraine filed a complaint in the WTO.Then, new negotiations started, and Ukraine withdrew the complaint. Negotiations are still ongoing. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac640YaY1qbvKtAE5o by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T11:35:38.224695Z
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@joaocosta You don’t seem to be fully understanding the problems you’re talking about. Grain exports are grain exports, transport companies are transport companies, unrelated topics.They only became somwhat related in November when farmer organisations declared they will join the transport organisations in their protest, but as I understand to make their problem more visible.Attitude of Polish and Ukrainian government in the grain case was by the way quite similar - they just denied any wrongdoing, although I must admit in Ukrainian media there was much more honest discussion about how Ukrainian companies illegally sell grain into Poland, hurting local producers, which caused the protests.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac640aQhBRuz2uZO0u by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T11:34:20Z
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@kravietzTo say no one was doing anything or listening and therefore an extremely selfish measure of blocking the border for weeks and weeks in both directions was needed is not only false, it is completely biased.What do the governments of Slovakia, Hungary and the hauliers organisation in Poland have in common? A pro-Russian stance.If you can't see how extreme what they are doing is, I don't know what else to say...@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac64bDNhq5uoHHdZ9E by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T11:42:17.553171Z
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@joaocosta To say no one was doing anything or listeningBut this is 100% what was happening. You quoted Nayyem who admitted there are problems in the times of customs check on the border and said he’s ready to speed that up under the condition Polish side does the same. But he completely ignored all other topics, such as Ukrainian companies running transports without permits across EU and also Ukrainian authorities forcing bribes from Polish drivers. That’s a textbook definition of “ignoring” and “denial”.And I kind of understand why he did - it’s the same mentality as Polish government officials who think 100% inside their box. He’s a minister of transport, he may not have an official instrument to prevent Ukrainian truckers from running illegal rounds in EU… so he chose to pretend the problem doesn’t exist.So the Polish truckers chose the only instrument they had at their disposal and we are where we are. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac65bCdAjIjJu7QgIS by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T11:53:29.885179Z
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@joaocosta What do the governments of Slovakia, Hungary and the hauliers organisation in Poland have in common?Another things these countries have in common is that they share the border with Ukraine, and that’s the only common denominator here. The transport companies protest was organised by transport companies in respective countries, not by their governments.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac6Hx09P0ghb1CfKls by joaocosta@mastodonapp.uk
2023-11-23T13:43:58Z
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@kravietzSo is Romania, whose border is almost as long as the other three combined. But Romania's government didn't decide to unilaterally break EU policy.And yes, the governments of those three other countries bordering Ukraine decided to unilaterally extend the ban. Transport companies don't make national border policy. After the complaint to the WTO, the Polish government backtracked, so the truck drivers decided to impose their own blockade. All very civilised, no doubt. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac6Hx1POKj5Ov59cKe by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T14:11:54.565985Z
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@joaocosta I’m not saying the ban is good or desired. By biggest worry is the stubborn stupidity on both sides of the border that led to this blockade. And no, it’s not caused by a “Russian conspiracy”, although Russia very much welcomes it. Hanlon’s razor applies.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #Ac6NCDJ8sFzjwHIJmK by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-11-23T15:10:48Z
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@kravietz @polezaivsani @joaocosta > "let's not talk about it, because we're at war" is the worst way to deal with the problemExactly, it's not "but it's the war, look the other way!", it's precisely the opposite: it's the war and that's why it's important to not lose allies.There was this case when a Russian man got killed by a shark, and a lot of Ukrainians and sympathizers were making fun of it — and I could perfectly understand why, but at the same time I thought it was a really bad move.
(DIR) Post #Ac6NOkL7t6GHrRCNFI by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-11-23T15:13:02Z
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@kravietz @polezaivsani @joaocosta Not jus because it's immoral to make fun of a dead person, but because this person had nothing to do with the war in the first place. As cynical as it may be, moral questions are irrelevant in this case — Ukrainians and sympathizers shouldn't partake in such things as it makes them look bloodthirsty in public's eyes.Ukraine has been winning the PR war so far and as no one wants Ukraine to lose, it's important that it stays this way.
(DIR) Post #Ac6NRUXl4fNRjqPrXM by m0xee@social.librem.one
2023-11-23T15:13:33Z
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@kravietz @polezaivsani @joaocosta Public support shouldn't be wasted on petty shit like that and that is why Ukrainians shouldn't look bloodthirsty and Ukraine shouldn't look corrupt beyond redemption and an untrustworthy ally. Sorting these things out is just as important as armaments — because Ukraine relies on its allies a lot for those armaments.
(DIR) Post #Ac6QX7YxjCp447M5PU by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-23T15:21:57Z
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@joaocosta, you seem so rash in attributing any oblique move to Russian hand. You're giving the bastards too much credit, they aren't as powerful.Then you ignore the real causes which might exacerbate the problem further.I'm not privy to Polish transportation business, but I very much doubt Kremlin could make it happen. They may have helped it happen, and then it's best to address the root cause, PL-UA business relations, rather than make Kremlin look more powerful than they are.@kravietz
(DIR) Post #Ac6RxMAg8ZAcr74Rcm by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-11-23T16:03:33.818575Z
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@polezaivsaniAnd while Russians might have tried everything at their disposal to weaponize the conflict of business interest, *both Ukraine and Poland had well over half year to deescalate!* The only thing needed was to sit down and find a compromise. Instead, they simply lost it by walk over and now blame it on conspiracy — that's what annoys me most, because the whole scandal was entirely avoidable.@joaocosta