Post AbwDemitqsFYlQjDIO by raintrees@noagendasocial.com
(DIR) More posts by raintrees@noagendasocial.com
(DIR) Post #Absk51NsNx3pfEbpp2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T01:21:12Z
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Should we let someone die who is unwilling (but otherwise capable) of doing what is needed to stay alive?
(DIR) Post #Absm13yN1E9uRUv3ui by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T01:42:55Z
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@freemo it depends
(DIR) Post #AbsnQylP6nfxlnmAzY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T01:58:48Z
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@mjambon on?
(DIR) Post #AbsnaT1hxe64EdvV2W by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:00:30Z
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@freemo on whether they can be helped, change their mind about it, and get better.
(DIR) Post #Abso5tgUtiBxtFza4G by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:06:11Z
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@mjambon and if they seem unwilling to hav etheir mind changed or make the effort to get better?
(DIR) Post #AbsoCHTlLJIlQR50CG by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:05:26Z
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@freemo it's the idea that people don't always know what's best for them as in "I don't need no education". This has been massively abused by various autocratic regimes and nanny states but it's not a reason to let people kill themselves just because they're going through a phase.
(DIR) Post #AbsoCIPXsTWSJe79GK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:07:19Z
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@mjambon This seems like a very different answer than your earlier one... So if someone "doesnt know what is best for them" shall we force them?
(DIR) Post #Absord6hpoLINQ0nEO by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:14:50Z
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@freemo I think it should be up to you to decide when faced with such a situation, not the law. Personally, I don't have firm rules for deciding this, possibly because I was never faced with such a situation.
(DIR) Post #Absp00LBKxIokbmBLk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:16:19Z
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@mjambon Well I never mentioned the law. But the idea here is to get a sense of what people think the guidline is, that way as a society we can decide on how it would be appropriate to handle various situations. That may or may not influence law.
(DIR) Post #Absp8ZP6r8xHoYhJh2 by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:17:54Z
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@freemo like most people, I'd probably spend more effort to rescue the people I know and love than strangers. It's unfortunate for those who are the most isolated.
(DIR) Post #AbspCaFpdWU9btGvIm by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:18:36Z
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@mjambon Would that even be rescue, to force someone to do what you think is best for them when they explicitly dont want it?
(DIR) Post #AbspUI4RytnGQYOL0C by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:21:50Z
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@freemo it depends. Ask them later what they think.
(DIR) Post #AbspZKMesfk8zNJHhQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:22:43Z
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@mjambon Good idea, before we do anything we should always check with the future first :)
(DIR) Post #AbsqOcvLdWzZJpztGS by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:32:00Z
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@freemo all decisions are based on how we imagine the future. My previous message was about confronting a past prediction with an actual outcome: "I made you live even though you didn't want it because I thought you'd feel better later. How are you now?"
(DIR) Post #AbsrO1g4DZozkt7wUS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:43:05Z
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@mjambon Sounds like a bit of a cop out to be honest.
(DIR) Post #AbssK0F5iBKU6H9f3Q by mjambon@qoto.org
2023-11-17T02:53:35Z
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@freemo I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "cop out". Clearly, I don't want a hard rule to decide whether someone lives or die. Such a situation seems important and rare enough that it deserves serious pondering when it happens.
(DIR) Post #AbuEPEYGKWKg4pyu7U by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-17T18:35:45Z
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@freemo No vote because: I think this is just a wrapper for the assisted suicide debate. If someone wants to end their life, they should be able to (get help if needed for a humane process). Ofc with offers of life affirming help, checking for snap decisions etc. as is prudent according to studies of the phenomenon. But not living is part of human decency, if that human sees it as impossible to lead a decent life - reasons are complex, and "i don't want to do the thing" does not do this topic justice.
(DIR) Post #AbuEYPEPzXY5o44aga by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-17T18:37:23Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven well no because there is the scenario where they think they are doing wbats best to survive when in reality they will die as a result
(DIR) Post #AbuFRTcvLrgrMhnMrg by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-17T18:47:21Z
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@freemo Ah, that was not clear from me from the text. Would need a bit of differentiation by how clearly the person is a functioning adult i'd say.
(DIR) Post #AbuyyqJyUWaLFCDSim by Gbudd@qoto.org
2023-11-18T03:17:36Z
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@freemo That’s a really interesting question! Putting my EMT hat on, if they’re competent they get to refuse an intervention but in practice those are hard calls.More generally it kind of depends on other factors. For example, do you let someone ignore a mandatory evacuation knowing they may want to be rescued later at greater risk to all concerned?It’s a thought provoking question. I’d lean towards answering “Yes” in the abstract and mostly in practice but I’m willing to believe there are circumstances where I’d be open to “No” and I can’t come up with a consistent limiting principle.
(DIR) Post #AbuzNb9m0fUlS4FUQq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-18T03:22:04Z
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@Gbudd It certainly isnt an easy question… I will have to give my response to you some thought.
(DIR) Post #Abv1DKH07vrE6KrK7c by Gbudd@qoto.org
2023-11-18T03:42:39Z
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@freemo I should clarify a bit too.When I’m out as an EMT it’s a relatively bright line. If they’re competent (alert and oriented, not a threat to themselves or others, over 18) they get to refuse medical attention. We might try to convince them but at the end of the day they get to choose.There are calls where that feels crappy but at least we have a decision making framework to fall back on.
(DIR) Post #AbvFOYfyJhuNJXmzCq by raintrees@noagendasocial.com
2023-11-18T06:21:34Z
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@freemo That is one's ultimate level of control over one's self, the choice to cease to exist. All else is based on that: To be, or not to be.From choosing to be, comes the understanding to allow others to be (do no harm to others).And why property rights are so important. Our bodies are the primary form of our property, all that we create follows from that.
(DIR) Post #AbvJNlvVxuNNwBwJqy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-18T07:06:14Z
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@raintrees Sure but here we are talking about someone who doesnt know their going to die, they just make bad choices they believe in.
(DIR) Post #AbwDemitqsFYlQjDIO by raintrees@noagendasocial.com
2023-11-18T17:36:48Z
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@freemo I do not expect all living beings to live maximum life expectancies. And the alternative costs (loss of freedom, autonomy, etc.) are too dear to too many.Harrison Bergeron is not a guide, nor 1984, nor Brave New World...Today appears to be the anniversary of Jonestown, speaking of possible bad choices people believed in...I am grateful to be alive! :)