Post AbkasfwhGsaDPjegF6 by jscholes@dragonscave.space
(DIR) More posts by jscholes@dragonscave.space
(DIR) Post #AbkOn4WXmK20SEz3dA by tante@tldr.nettime.org
2023-11-13T00:44:53Z
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"Here's an AI to write Alt-Text for your images" is exactly what @danmcquillan argues is the "management of austerity" at the core of current "AI" systems: Marginalized (in this case blind) people get a shitty version of the real thing because we can't be bothered ("can't afford") to give the real thing.Writing alt text is not some annoyance that you should automate half-assedly. Write the fucking description of you post an image. It's just part of what you do when posting a fucking image.
(DIR) Post #AbkQNCOm4sp5Fy8lBw by luvcraft@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T01:02:35Z
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@tante @danmcquillan as someone who writes alt text religiously, my preference would be to meet in the middle, with an AI system that tries to figure out what's in an image, and then you can edit the description to improve it. Like the current "detect text from image" feature, which is usually about 70% correct, and then you clean up the result. This helps people with vision disabilities AND people with typing disabilities.
(DIR) Post #AbkTctjjWuq9sD7ZUO by maxthyme@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T01:39:02Z
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@tante @danmcquillan Literally if I feel too lazy to add a description then I'm too lazy to post an image because it's a dick move otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AbkWLAxd3I3rwWrU6y by msbellows@c.im
2023-11-13T02:09:22Z
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@tante @danmcquillan And also, the world's energy and water resources shouldn't be squandered just because you're too fucking lazy to write your own alt text, ffs.
(DIR) Post #AbkYlPXTfmx8atGd60 by stefan@stefanbohacek.online
2023-11-13T02:36:35Z
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@tante @danmcquillan I am a strong proponent of image descriptions (I made https://alttexthalloffame.org), but I am wondering if image recognition-based AI tools can serve as:a) a stepping stone towards wider alt text adoption, andb) a tool for those who may not be able to easily provide image description because of their own disability, physical or otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AbkZZWU27zK4bwYFaS by matt@isfeeling.social
2023-11-13T02:45:38Z
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@tante Respectfully, I strongly disagree. Of course high quality personalized alt text is great. What if you’re not good at writing alt text? Or what if you have cognitive limits that make writing effective alt text challenging? Or what if you just can’t find the words and want a starting point? Fuck them, I guess? Or maybe there’s more nuance than you post implies ✌️
(DIR) Post #AbkZk1oQVDRqfi6EFs by jannem@fosstodon.org
2023-11-13T02:46:34Z
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@tante @danmcquillan Automated Alt text generation can write it in the language of the reader. The poster can write it only in one of the languages they know.
(DIR) Post #AbkasfwhGsaDPjegF6 by jscholes@dragonscave.space
2023-11-13T03:00:15Z
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@tante @danmcquillan Out of curiosity, have you asked any blind people about this? I'd like to share my opinion as someone who can only detect light and shadows, and see nothing else.One of the models that can provide detailed, useful visual descriptions at the moment is GPT4. For me, it has quickly gained a place as one of the most liberating, empowering technological inventions of my lifetime. Never before have I been able to gain an understanding of what an image shows, and ask targeted questions to independently expand that understanding.I've used it to identify products, in a fraction of the time it would've taken to locate and scan barcodes or labels. It's taught me things about my environment that would be unlikely to come up in conversation, helped me learn about the appearance of friends and family as we share time together, provided guidance about devices and software that I would've otherwise needed help with, and the list goes on. Yes, I've used it to fill in the gaps when people don't write sufficient alt text too.Putting specific examples aside, there are now fewer occasions on which I need to rely on someone else for their input. You may not think I should feel like a burden in the first place, and that's fine. I have many people in my life who are happy to facilitate support, but focusing on my relationships (or lac thereof) would be missing the point. I now have a choice. If waiting four hours for a friend to finish work is inconvenient for me, if it's the middle of the night, or if I'm just not in the mood for social interaction, I have options. Options that have never existed to this degree in the multiple decades that I've been unable to see.Sometimes it's wrong. I am always aware of the need to fact check, and not make critical decisions based on, what is conveyed. But here's the thing: part of my professional life involves teaching people to write alt text. It is too hard, and takes too long, to do it right. It represents a dead end to the person reading it, because that's all they get. Frankly, the descriptions people are getting back from these tools blow the majority of alt text written by humans out of the water.So, by all means use it as a starting point, to create descriptions that can be massaged and improved. Question and ridicule all claims of a completely hands-off, human-free pipeline, which are ableist and unrealistic. Castigate those tools and models which provide useless descriptions, as well as the people who rely on them. But please don't outright dismiss something which is giving some human beings such a sense of joy and freedom as they've never experienced before. And if/when you receive responses from other blind people saying they don't care about these tools for whatever reason, please try to remember that everybody is unique in their circumstances, and that one set doesn't invalidate another. CC @weirdwriter
(DIR) Post #Abkf6DVQCs1r51bs4e by crashglasshouses@tsukihi.me
2023-11-13T03:47:35Z
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@tante @danmcquillan it's literally just OCR. expecting everyone to write alt-txt all the time is pretty ableist. you can reply to an image without alt-txt with the description you would write if you were posting the image.
(DIR) Post #Abki6DAvjdkZuwiLB2 by congusbongus@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-11-13T04:21:11Z
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@tante depending on everyone doing the right thing (in this case, always writing alt text) is not a sustainable or scalable solution, because humans are not perfectly good. We need systemic solutions, like the right incentives, curb cuts and so on. “AI” in its current form is flawed but at least it’s an attempt at addressing human flaws.
(DIR) Post #AbkmVD0BuqIER7rlM8 by ayoubabedrabbo@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T05:10:34Z
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@tante @danmcquillan what percent of internet users use alt text?
(DIR) Post #AbkogscHjbQwaxNRyK by unearth@mastodon.nz
2023-11-13T05:35:02Z
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@tante @danmcquillan Hard agree. Alt text is an act of care, and I have yet to see any image auto-texted remotely adequately.
(DIR) Post #AbkqIHhLXoQf3M9104 by mnl@hachyderm.io
2023-11-13T05:53:01Z
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@tante @danmcquillan @levampyre I use llms quite often to write alt text, because I know they will get the 80% of the description of the scene with much clearer language than I do. I fill in the 20% imparting the meaning i intended that comes from me, and now have so much more time to do so.The assumption that AI = fully automated is not how people I know use these tools. That and the hostile language you use I think is detrimental to critical discourse.
(DIR) Post #AbkqIKa0pXLRzTjhU8 by mnl@hachyderm.io
2023-11-13T05:53:02Z
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@tante @danmcquillan @levampyre If I think my alt text is better now, and you somehow (or others here) tell me to write the “fucking description” when I “fucking post an image”, do you think I’ll somehow do a better job by myself, even though my aim when using ai was to do a better job in the first place? Does my intention to do something is think is better warrant the anger in your words? Who are you trying to reach? What actually offends you?
(DIR) Post #AbkqV7K9QUqOdvPjMG by andrej@trees.social
2023-11-13T05:53:42Z
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@tante https://dragonscave.space/@jscholes/111401003619300434
(DIR) Post #AbktD7TsP7d1mO4ZcW by magdalenahai@mstdn.social
2023-11-13T06:25:44Z
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@tante @danmcquillan this! Also: well written alt texts are a pleasure to read and can give more info about the picture for us who don't need alt-texts as well.
(DIR) Post #AbktfB0yrIOMqdw49Y by rye@ioc.exchange
2023-11-13T06:21:52Z
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@tante @danmcquillan make the user experience good. I like how Vero had a few categories it helped bring some context about how to write. Clues 🕵️♀️ help lead a good UX. Also I feel the experience for self on mastadon is clunky and generally not intuitive. These are self statements.
(DIR) Post #AbkupiwDghDUuQImDA by festal@tldr.nettime.org
2023-11-13T06:43:50Z
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@tante @danmcquillanOnce they started calling it "creative industries" it was pretty unavoidable under capitalism that industrial automation would be applied. With the explicit goals of reducing labor costs, both by replacing and deskilling labor. And it works.https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/study-finds-chatgpt-drives-down-173825149.html
(DIR) Post #AbkwYlqLpf6yuBbJ0i by aoe@berlin.social
2023-11-13T07:03:14Z
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@tante @danmcquillan Recently I found the possibility to use #Alt4me and #Alt4you. It's simple and useful:1. not everyone feels fit to write an AltText. This is where the hashtag #Alt4me comes in. Someone may step in and the original poster can complete the post.2. when I see a great picture or funny cartoon without AltText, I kindly reply with my description to help and tag it with #Alt4you.We can always help each other.
(DIR) Post #Abkz6Q47VZfJ7HDJRY by tante@tldr.nettime.org
2023-11-13T07:31:39Z
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@jscholes @danmcquillan @weirdwriter I do think that these systems are great as support systems for those affected and I am glad they can be used that way. I think that the "information supply side" though can't and shouldn't rely on this crutch: We as people who can see have the responsibility to ensure that we provide alt-text in these cases. If you use tools to help you write a good one I don't care but it is your responsibility as a poster towards users who can't see (or need/want alt text for other reasons) that you shouldn't get to "outsource" to a crappier version. So I support people affected to use "AI" to help them participate and be in society. But I don't think that society gets to just point at some "AI" to be allowed to stop thinking about and caring for people with needs.
(DIR) Post #Abl2SfVr3WLBG6UGfY by farandula@mstdn.es
2023-11-13T08:09:15Z
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@tanteYour point is understandable but also not fair at all. Do you write a "simple English" version of each of you posts? Do you ask people to read aloud themselves? (default screenreaders have awful voices).Are you going to translate your post to all languanges or do I still have to use a shitty AI to read chinese? This response is not an automatic translation, is me writing shitty English because l literally can't do better without some assistance and/or more time investment than a native speaker. AI would probably do it better than me. Everybody has limited access to content in some way. And you never are going to achieve such awareness that 100% describe in detail each image they post (and not everybody have writing skilks). You could try enforce alt-text and people would look for workarounds. Automatic description is better than no description, I think (sometimes is better no picture at all, but that is another topic)@danmcquillan
(DIR) Post #AblluFQe7nuoPFZlbM by Wraithe@mastodon.social
2023-11-13T16:38:26Z
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@tante @esther @danmcquillan Hilarious sidenote; I recently did an alt text for a post that didn’t have any; it got twice as many reposts as the original article and _6 times_ the number of likes.I felt a little bad about it, especially since the original poster finally put up an alt text reply about a day afterwards, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(DIR) Post #AblmkXGT3a74mVkPq4 by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-11-13T16:48:06.094944Z
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@tante @danmcquillan alt text for an image is already the shitty version of the real thing
(DIR) Post #AbnNO9idoDdiqb4qSu by guacamayan@journa.host
2023-11-14T11:13:18Z
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@tante @danmcquillan ok but most of my images are screenshots of text and I'm glad to have an optical character recognition system built into this app... Which is a form of AI...
(DIR) Post #Abo7Eq7LufhBL88D3o by RonniesaurusHex@disabled.social
2023-11-14T19:47:01Z
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@tanteI'm really appreciating the conversation this has started.
(DIR) Post #Ac0TKTe9RbHhhqgYNM by johncarneyau@mastodon.social
2023-11-20T18:50:59Z
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@tante The most helpful thing they can do is *require* alt-text by default. The next most helpful thing would be offer the option of pasting in OCR-ed text.