Post AbaXwYZXfeuc3dWs2S by trinsec@trinsec.org
(DIR) More posts by trinsec@trinsec.org
(DIR) Post #Aba9XvB65Y8o1poc5o by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:07:02Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
I think I am very unusual in the sense that I believe abortions should be tax-paid, free to everyone, and pregnancy tests should also be free.... BUT I also think abortion should be very limited, to something around the first **10 weeks** at most.I've had both right and left leaning folks loose their shit over that. Always entertaining#Abortion #Healthcare
(DIR) Post #Aba9olPNfHtQeSWlIe by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:10:06.175481Z
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@freemo This position isn’t one I support, but it’s one I’d vote for because relative to where we are in the #USA, it’s in the right direction.There are prolifers who won’t vote for anything other than a complete abolition of abortion. I’m not one of them.
(DIR) Post #Aba9rCTryuCnC6mylE by jbschirtzinger@gleasonator.com
2023-11-08T02:09:22.654613Z
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@freemo Probably because this position--in that you are subsidizing other people's sexual relationship to taxpayers--is about as wise as levying a tax on sex itself.
(DIR) Post #Aba9rDfbYlBcsnHrgu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:10:31Z
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@jbschirtzinger Yea there is a fair argument against such a cost to tax payers... generally I would agree with you here. But its the only ethical alternative I can think of that doesnt violate the rights of the mother or fetus.
(DIR) Post #Aba9xyT0U14Vl3cDj6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:11:45Z
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@realcaseyrollins It is the only solution Ic an think of that addresses both sides of the concern on abortion.... It addresses a womans right to choice, as well as ensuring the fetus has protections on its life that are science based (protected once neurons develop)
(DIR) Post #AbaA23yzutzQ1XWqDQ by jbschirtzinger@gleasonator.com
2023-11-08T02:11:19.365500Z
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@freemo What about the rights of the fetus?
(DIR) Post #AbaA24umS4D6ukYzHU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:12:29Z
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@jbschirtzinger Thats exactly why a 10 week period was picked, since the fetus has no neurons yet it doesnt have rights. Once there are neurons forming (which happens around that time period) it has all the protections and rights... thats the point.
(DIR) Post #AbaADl9hk4Kv6h783l by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:14:36.968769Z
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@freemo Science-based might be a bit much, as scientifically, life begins at conception. Your position is based on an opinion on when a human being begins to have personhood, rather than a purely scientific stance.
(DIR) Post #AbaAI59HLlEkGyyZbU by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:15:24Z
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@freemo Dear Dr. Freemo: You are entitled to your own views and opinions.Sincerely, Monica Andrews, Editor-in-chief, #FreePeoplesFreePress News
(DIR) Post #AbaAJcemFlscUBRZOC by jbschirtzinger@gleasonator.com
2023-11-08T02:13:35.178567Z
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@freemo I'm not sure the fetus would agree with you as I don't think neurons are the cut off point of what constitutes alive. Unlike say, someone who is brain dead and isn't likely to come back, it is the nature of a fetus to unfold and develop into a person.
(DIR) Post #AbaAJdZUqtFZK5yrnU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:15:39Z
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@jbschirtzinger How could a lump of cells with no brain or nurons in any way disagree with me? It has no thought on any level with which to disagree... which is the point.It has nothing to do with what constitutes "alive".. its not intending to be a metaphysical or philosophical discussion. Its about suffering and a sense of self. If you have no conscious, no thought, no means of expierncing suffering. It has no more consciousness than a barnacle.
(DIR) Post #AbaARKbnEvVopLiw6K by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:17:03Z
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@realcaseyrollins who said anything about "where life begins"... a barnacle has no brain and is clearly alive... I see nothing wrong with killing it.Plants, barnacles, and all sorts of things are alive but we recognize killing them isnt an issue since they have no brain to have sense of identity, thought, desires, nothing... Its no different than removing a tumor which also has no brain or thought.
(DIR) Post #AbaAVv3xe4n92x5RR2 by jbschirtzinger@gleasonator.com
2023-11-08T02:17:08.712683Z
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@freemo You seem to be overlooking the concept of "a soul" and those can talk with or without bodies and get quite pissy when they are unjustly deprived of a fleshy vehicle through something like say, killing or murder.
(DIR) Post #AbaAVw6pksgSI9RFYG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:17:53Z
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@jbschirtzinger The "soul" can get as upset as it wants, it can hitch a ride on the next meat puppet if it wants.
(DIR) Post #AbaAafKRZWfLhD3kwa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:18:45Z
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@realcaseyrollins to be doubly clear personhood and "life" were both concepts I in no way addressed or even see as relevant. What matters is self-determination, consciousness and though. of which you need a brain to have any of those.
(DIR) Post #AbaAcny2QOln4EbEzA by jbschirtzinger@gleasonator.com
2023-11-08T02:18:27.020014Z
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@freemo I'll be sure to send all those upset souls your way and you can explain it to them in a very "scientific, logical way". ;)
(DIR) Post #AbaAcolJTCBXX3ean2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:19:07Z
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@jbschirtzinger Just another weekend for me, send them my way :)
(DIR) Post #AbaAhvqEZnTew7OUyG by mia@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-08T02:20:07.041781Z
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@freemo @realcaseyrollins Depends what race it is.
(DIR) Post #AbaAlo4jOPg40a1St6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:20:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mia It is the tour de' france@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #AbaApoWHgN4gXqoyGW by mia@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-08T02:21:32.510274Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @realcaseyrollins Cyclists can have abortions.
(DIR) Post #AbaAzPfkv1BoNWpR8S by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:23:14.160086Z
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@freemo Here’s where we disagree; I think it’s a common idea among both the religious and secular alike (generally speaking) that killing people is wrong because they’re living human being. There are a LOT of people who still have problems with assisted suicide and pulling the plug on someone who’s on life support.I’ve never heard anyone say “killing people is wrong because they have neurons”
(DIR) Post #AbaB2ytCRKG2TDonGy by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:23:54.258824Z
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@mia @freemo Human!
(DIR) Post #AbaBA9w5lbyyl3at3w by mia@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-08T02:25:13.099261Z
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@realcaseyrollins @freemo :doubt:
(DIR) Post #AbaBC1f5V9J1fuWwfA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:25:30Z
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@realcaseyrollins When has anyone ever been faced with a human being with no neurons to even ask that question? Only time I can think of is fetuses before 10 weeks old... and most non religious people seem ok with that.
(DIR) Post #AbaBDyPgY9siBBFqxE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:25:53Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins Ahh the only race where everyone looses :)@mia
(DIR) Post #AbaBHTO5qQXt75B96G by mia@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-08T02:26:32.434282Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @realcaseyrollins "We're all human, just don't look at South Africa right now."
(DIR) Post #AbaBKN0E2YPGBBOct6 by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:27:02.010558Z
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@freemo Haha that’s true. But nonetheless, if most people think killing is wrong because of the person’s will or the neurons they have, they’d cite that as the reason. But they don’t.Not saying you can’t hold your opinion, just saying I’m surprised since it diverts a bit from the type of answer that most people would give.
(DIR) Post #AbaBMV5mvxHvqf0vsu by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:27:22.322319Z
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@freemo @mia True 😆 😭
(DIR) Post #AbaBRK1XVuYAy4KGH2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:28:17Z
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@realcaseyrollins Most non-religious people would say killing is wrong because it violates self-determination, a person has a right to exercise their own will and not be robbed of that. Or at least some variation of that.If someone doesnt have neurons then they have no will.
(DIR) Post #AbaBZyk40aeBZNHO5Y by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:29:51.233990Z
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@freemo I don’t think that’s what most non religious people would say to be honest.
(DIR) Post #AbaBgBBeeQspu98qPI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T02:30:57Z
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@realcaseyrollins To put it even simpler, I think most people are against killing because they put themselves in the victims shoes, and recognize that the idea of their sense of self, their understanding, their awareness being replaced with annhilation, emptyness, blackness, is scary. They want to be protected from that and by extension wnat to protect others form that.If a person has no neurons then they are already in blackness, they have no thought or desire, those fears are moot as there is no death of consciousness as consciousness doesnt exist yet. The consciousness is already dead as consciousness needs neurons.
(DIR) Post #AbaC44TFH1wG1ZlIwK by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-11-08T02:35:16.711370Z
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@freemo Hmm…I don’t know if I buy that because most atheists oppose killing people but support killing animals, especially for food. Is there something about human neurons that make them special or more capable of sentience or free will than animals?
(DIR) Post #AbaCtjV6U7ak2sGW1Y by hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info
2023-11-08T02:44:38.382308Z
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@freemo abortions should be allowed up to the first 960 months
(DIR) Post #AbaFGBb4u5Y1SotUxM by TammyGentzel@awscommunity.social
2023-11-08T03:11:05Z
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@freemo From that perspective, would you be willing to share why you believe something that might become an independent living being is more important to protect than someone who is already an independent living being?
(DIR) Post #AbaFTwWHl1YGkyDDPc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T03:13:33Z
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@TammyGentzel Its not, thats why 10 weeks is picked.. both the mother and fetus have their rights protected. Mother can still have an abortion, child is protected.The reason both are equally important is because once the fetus has brain cells and is capable of thought on any level (around 10 weeks) there is now at a minimum an ethical gray area, and at worst an ethical violation. This setup ensures all ethical concerns are addressed.
(DIR) Post #AbaG9B68ScxVqKdw9Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T03:21:00Z
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@TammyGentzel In short: because bodily autonomy is sacred. Your bodily autonomy ends where the bodily autonomy of another being capable of thought (has neurons) begins.. particularly if that other being is in that position (of being dependent on you) due to your own actions (sex).inb4: in cases of rape in my scenario the mother still has the option to abort in the 10 week window. So she is not denied the option.
(DIR) Post #AbaTtKBCKIS6jaLUbQ by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T05:53:09Z
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@jbschirtzinger – instead, focus on whether active agreement/disagreement is interesting and relevant (it isn't) – e.g. suppose you're in a coma and can't agree or disagree to anything. Is killing you at that point murder? What if you're likely to wake up soon? @freemo
(DIR) Post #AbaTtW38C787Y2fDhA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T05:55:00Z
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@ech Since we are talking about if killing is ethical if something doesnt have a brain im not sure your analogy is useful here.@jbschirtzinger
(DIR) Post #AbaU1dknQxvpl7xh5c by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T05:56:33Z
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@freemo @realcaseyrollins "thought" and "consciousness" are things on a list of differences between a 5 week fetus and an adult. This list also includes things like "size" and "experiences" and "independence" – (some people use those instead).All the things on this list generally end up being problematic to use in this way.For example: "consciousness" – someone who is asleep or in a coma doesn't have that, but we would consider killing someone in those states to be murder. And so on.
(DIR) Post #AbaUGLrkDtNscmE7XM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T05:59:10Z
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@ech Which is the point. My core argument is not dependent on defining the moment consciousness exists. It is only dependent on defining when consciousness absolutely doesnt exist (on the obvious fact that when you dont have a brain yet you cant be conscious). The idea being you cant have any of those properties prior to you developing neurons, ergo abortion prior to 10 weeks is garunteed to be morally safe regardless of the ambiguity as to when any of those properties kick in.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #AbaUPFyvTB7KytpeMq by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:00:47Z
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@freemo @realcaseyrollins "consciousness absolutely doesnt exist" so sort of a "better safe than sorry" approach?But that's still my point: even if we know consciousness doesn't exist at N weeks, that doesn't matter – using consciousness for this question is ghastly.
(DIR) Post #AbaUfH751wfB7kHgRM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:03:40Z
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@ech I listed three properties, not sure why your focusing on that one (other than its the easier one to attack).. .the point is, if youa rent capable of thought, awareness, suffering, emotions, if you dont have a brain your safe to kill... If you do there is some point its not ok and that point is unknown and cant be easier defined. So the approach is simple, pick a timeline that garuntees everyone gets a fair shake@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #AbaUfJDBEEjNdF9aE4 by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:03:41Z
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@freemo @jbschirtzinger Hmm, I thought it was useful, since it's an example of someone without a currently-functioning brain that we don't kill.But maybe I'm not understanding exactly why not having neurons is significant for you.
(DIR) Post #AbaUrQ1ni8rMFQbbFo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:05:52Z
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@ech The reason its not useful is that their brain may only be temporarily not functioning. It both stands a chance of recovering, and retaining previous expiernce.. A person without a brain is never waking up in their current state, and if they manage to grow a brain only once the brain is grown can it have any sort of thought or sensse of self or anything that makes a person a person in any meaningful sense (even if its a glimmer of it)@jbschirtzinger
(DIR) Post #AbaUyuKzQ3uSHJ9TaC by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:07:15Z
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@freemo @jbschirtzinger "their brain may only be temporarily not functioning" And fetuses just temporarily don't have brains?"A person without a brain is never waking up in their current state" Unless their brain starts growing. Like what happens usually with a fetus.etc...
(DIR) Post #AbaV6v8mJkRz5MGF3A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:08:40Z
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@ech Right, not having a brain at all, and being able to grow one, is vastly different than having a brain, personality, memories, expiernces, and it is temporarily turned off.. not remotely comparable.. one exists and is in a domant state, one doesnt exist at all but may be able to be grown.@jbschirtzinger
(DIR) Post #AbaV73oY4KcFzDriGe by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:08:43Z
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@freemo @realcaseyrollins I picked it pretty much randomly; they're all pretty easy to attack, I think.We don't murder people who can't think, temporarily, for some reason. (Coma again, I guess?) etc.
(DIR) Post #AbaVCJZEvW4eI9D5fM by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:09:41Z
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@freemo @jbschirtzinger "memories" – Whoa if we knew the coma guy was going to have total amnesia then would it be ok to murder him?
(DIR) Post #AbaVLK42RuGQRFuZ8q by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:11:17Z
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@ech Why do you take long lists of things that collectively prove a point, single out a single thing and think that if that one thing in the list is an exception it invalidates the whole list?No, memories is one of many things I listed that having any combination of those has value, having absolutely none of those (or even a brain) does not... I do think you are trying to argue in good faith, but sometimes it doesnt feel like it.
(DIR) Post #AbaWl6naUYEwmR4mg4 by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:27:10Z
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@freemo I'd encourage you to be a little more flexible about what form an argument takes. Yes: I'm not doing a comprehensive take-down of your post with every post I write. That's ok, right? (There's a few reasons why I might not be doing that, not least of which is that we are basically just repeating ourselves over and over here in this thread. Memories was like the main *new* thing I noticed in your reply.) Or... do you want me to address something specifically?I'm just trying to make a point about how the way you are arguing about fetuses isn't really consistent with how most people think about the idea of "killing is wrong". In this case, for example, nobody really thinks "killing is wrong" (or "murder should be illegal" or whatever) *because* the victim has *memories*. Not even "memories in combination with a list of other qualities".
(DIR) Post #AbaXU1tDagXgaO86bo by trinsec@trinsec.org
2023-11-08T06:32:47.459Z
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@freemo@qoto.org Why 10 weeks? I've read that consciousness likely begins at 22 weeks, and that's when they would be able to feel pain. So 20 weeks would probably be more apt for the limit?
(DIR) Post #AbaXU2v1lRaFmHz44G by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:35:13Z
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@trinsec 10 weeks is when neurons form and fire.
(DIR) Post #AbaXwYZXfeuc3dWs2S by trinsec@trinsec.org
2023-11-08T06:37:58.280Z
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@freemo@qoto.org That's not telling me much. Even snails have neurons and people flatten them every day without thought. 😋
(DIR) Post #AbaXwZW2ABhSz2taD2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T06:40:24Z
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@trinsec its all we have. consciousness and other higher forms of thought are unknown to us and purely speculative. All we know is prior to 10 weeks there is no brain so no moral issue.. .after 10 weeks there is and the morality is no longer clear.. how underdeveloped does a brain have to be before murder becomes ok? Id rather stick with the science and go with the one line we can objectively measure without moral ambiguity
(DIR) Post #AbadoccVKxAY1IVxR2 by rlamacraft@qoto.org
2023-11-08T07:46:14Z
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@freemo that’s a pretty standard view on the matter in Europe. Most countries put the cut-off at 12, 13, or 14 weeks but, yes, socialised healthcare is not controversial
(DIR) Post #AbaiIJBsXUuYGTTIki by trinsec@trinsec.org
2023-11-08T06:44:58.024Z
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@freemo@qoto.org Reading elsewhere: "When one's 24 weeks pregnant, the baby has a chance of survival if they are born. Most babies born before this time cannot live because their lungs and other vital organs are not developed enough."For me that's a good enough cutoff. Before 24 weeks, they're simply.. blobs of meat which wouldn't survive, and thus cannot really be called individuals. Basically tumors before they become potentially useful. 😋So I think around 20 weeks is a generous cutoff.
(DIR) Post #AbaiILs8ZLu0a7G4tk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T08:36:21Z
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@trinsec That seems like a horrible cut off... killing a baby who would survive given time simply because it cant survive at this moment.. that seems like a horrible measure designed more to justify the murder than to actually look after the self determination and bodily autonomy of the baby
(DIR) Post #Abb1dey8f3Kb1GwJ5k by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T12:13:11Z
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@freemo Well, good thought in general, but i'd disagree on the timeframe. You see, you messed up one thing: you're a man, and this is a decision that the woman in question needs to make. Not loosing my shit, but omniously whispering "seeeeexismmmm" ;-) In a less quirky way: late term abortions would weigh heavy on the woman in question. Their consequences, their choice. Flips when the child is viable on its own, then there's a person beyond the mother.
(DIR) Post #Abb3uoEhevGwamzbM0 by TammyGentzel@awscommunity.social
2023-11-08T12:38:37Z
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@freemo Jellyfish have neurons. Thus, it seems to me you are still stating something that might become an independent living being (and per your clarification might be capable of thought) has more value than someone who is a living independent human being and is capable of thought. That is what I am curious about. Why does a living independent human being capable of thought have less value to you than something that is not?
(DIR) Post #AbbMqBoYSz8JOsGxpQ by kj6dbe@mastodon.hams.social
2023-11-08T16:10:42Z
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@freemo By “loose[sic] their shit” I take you mean “disagree with me”. Not too surprising, for a Mad Libs style position such as yours.What are the chances that you will be in the position of having to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?If zero, what gives you the moral authority to impose limits on others, that would not affect yourself?Finally, how did you arrive at a figure of 10 weeks, given that many fetal abnormalities can’t be detected until well after that point?
(DIR) Post #AbbO4NQoAh3XRDUhfc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T16:24:28Z
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@kj6dbe By “loose[sic] their shit” I take you mean “disagree with me”. Not too surprising, for a Mad Libs style position such as yours.Nope I meant exactly what I said. Not surprising your struggling to understand what was said when your starting with an insult in your very first sentence I guess. What are the chances that you will be in the position of having to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?Are you seriously asking a perfect stranger what genitals they have? Disgusting, and none of your business If zero, what gives you the moral authority to impose limits on others, that would not affect yourself?Even if it were 0 uit has effected me greatly. I was once a fetus and thus once at the whim of abortion laws. As someone (like everyone) who was once at risk of being effected by these laws I, and everyone, has a right to an opinion.
(DIR) Post #AbbOjBhcgRmuw0or8C by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T16:31:51Z
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@TammyGentzel Again, since the person has the right to still have an abortion it isnt a measure of who is more valuable. It is a measure that both have value (without measruing who has more) and ensuring both have their value honored by looking after the bodily autonomy of each of them.I picked a scenario where both can survive, have their will respected, and the woman still has the right to not follow through with an unwanted pregnancy...I am far more concerned that you are trying to find the value of two humans so you can determine which has the right to murder the other. I prefer a stance where no murder occurs and both have value.
(DIR) Post #AbbP3WXytUL7NH0Sfo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T16:35:30Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Well, good thought in general, but i’d disagree on the timeframe.Most people do so thats understandable. Obviously I disagree. You see, you messed up one thing: you’re a man, and this is a decision that the woman in question needs to make.Dont assume what genitals I have.More important it very much has effected me. I like all humans have been fetuses and at the mercy of the law regarding abortion. Therefore since everyone has been ont he receiving end we all have a right to say.Thats a bit like saying “you cant judge what laws we should have for murder, your not a murderer so it wont effect you!”… No but i am a potential murder victim…. Not loosing my shit, but omniously whispering “seeeeexismmmm” ;-)Lawl
(DIR) Post #AbbPHIBV5fmysr3ZCK by trinsec@trinsec.org
2023-11-08T08:48:48.603Z
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@freemo@qoto.org I'm being practical. When 24 weeks is the minimum for being viable for life, and close to 22 weeks is generally seen as the start of being able to feel pain.. then 20 weeks is for me the generous cutoff to give that fetus a chance.At that stage it isn't an individual imo (before 24 weeks), so it wouldn't be murder in my eyes. It is not even a baby yet, it is a fetus. A baby is when it is born.
(DIR) Post #AbbPHJ5ri6sLhfQa3M by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T16:37:58Z
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@trinsec Life viability doesnt seem relevant here for me.. two reasons 1) the mother by not getting an abortion in the first 10 weeks (remember pregnancy tests are free so no excuse in this scenario) they are choosing to make a life dependeant on them for 9 months. That choice makes them responsible to see it through in my eyes since you put the child in that risk to begin with.
(DIR) Post #AbbPgEXxkiMYqDSKqe by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T16:42:34Z
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@freemo > Their consequences, their choice. The murderer comparison does not fit. Victim would be the person that has the consequences. Dont assume what genitals I have. Really? Is this a defense mechanism or are you alledging that male presentation in past posts might have been a lie?And did you put “effect” instead of “affect” to torture me? shivers
(DIR) Post #AbbPl4l7ZR8vvtv50a by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T16:43:26Z
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@freemo > Their consequences, their choice.The murderer comparison does not fit. Victim would be the person that has the consequences. Dont assume what genitals I have.Really? Is this a defense mechanism or are you alledging that male presentation in past posts might have been a lie?And did you put “effect” instead of “affect” to torture me? shivers
(DIR) Post #AbbRHghk7puoq7SD9E by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:00:30Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven The murderer comparison does not fit. Victim would be the person that has the consequences.Great, then that would be the fetus, and when someone is unable to express their will to live we assume they have one.The risk to the murderer is not nonexistant.. they risk emotional damage fromt heir acts, harm from the victim fighting back, etc. So both have consequences. The reason we facor the victim isnt because they are the only one with consequences, it is because the murderer put them in the situation against their will, much like a moth puts their unborn child int hat situation against the childs will.
(DIR) Post #AbbRU8MV7bdI5nS9Dc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:02:46Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Really? Is this a defense mechanism or are you alledging that male presentation in past posts might have been a lie?I have never once publicly talked about my genitals, I dont plan to start. Thats like asking someone who looks like a woman in a womans bathroom if she is a “Real woman” aka, what genitals she has. Its not appropriate to do so I do not appreciate when people assume ones outward appearance must match ones genitals, its counter productive to society.
(DIR) Post #AbbRdLVRcZ45St1qvw by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:04:27Z
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@freemo Ok, that i can agree on. Sorry.
(DIR) Post #AbbRf6mvJUoQOf2qoK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:04:44Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven No worries.
(DIR) Post #AbbRqNdB25LjoqrRAG by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:06:49Z
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@freemo I still think men should not decide such things. If you are not one, fine. But i have no indication of that, and let’s leave it at “Women internal affairs”.
(DIR) Post #AbbRw9HFJQWZ2VLygS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:07:49Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven and I disagree.. anyone who is or has been a fetus should have a say on who is or was allowed to kill them.
(DIR) Post #AbbSBOxnH13q27WnhY by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:10:37Z
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@freemo Well, i would argue that the host system takes priority until a system under construction is viable on its own.Ramifications of a different approach are that a non-viable system may be abandoned and suffer for this.I think i have a negative utilitarian approach here, while you favor the positive utilitarianism. Stopping pain is just more important to me than creating joy.
(DIR) Post #AbbSRi9ngCNqC7vAHI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:13:30Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Well, i would argue that the host system takes priority until a system under construction is viable on its own.Generally thats true, afterall its why its ok to remove a tumor (even if that tumor may have a brain which can happen).the difference here is we have a host system who forced the subsystem into existance and waited long enough for the subsystem to develop that it potentially could suffer or expiernce its death. So the analogy breaks down quickly.If I abduct a human, force them to be biologically dependant upon me against their will, then murder them I dont kind it an acceptable excuse that just because they were dependent on me (as a consequence of my actions) that I had a right to kill them.
(DIR) Post #AbbSYlSLoNscSCxeMa by kj6dbe@mastodon.hams.social
2023-11-08T17:14:48Z
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@freemo When you decided to make woman's "genitals" your business, you've made 𝙮𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙨 a valid topic of discussion. Or, are you claiming some special right to privacy that you would deny others?Since your chances of becoming pregnant would appear to be zero, absent the availability of a time machine, abortion laws have no direct impact on you. Only woman are, which is why I think 𝘺𝘰𝘶 shouldn't have a say in them.
(DIR) Post #AbbSplJxZHR6xP8pcG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:17:52Z
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@kj6dbe > When you decided to make woman's "genitals" your business, you've made 𝙮𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙨 a valid topic of discussion. Or, are you claiming some special right to privacy that you would deny others?So if someone fights for the right for transgendered people to use the woman's bathrooms by your logic I have the right to demand what such a persons genitals is? It is therefore appropriate for me to demand transgendered in woman's bathrooms to tell me what their genitals look like"Get out of here with that sexist bullshit.> Since your chances of becoming pregnant would appear to be zero, absent the availability of a time machine, abortion laws have no direct impact on you. Only woman are, which is why I think 𝘺𝘰𝘶 shouldn't have a say in them.Irrelevant, my chance of committing murder is 0 yet i still have a right to talk about what the laws should be around a murderer.You are going to sprain something with those mental gymnastics...
(DIR) Post #AbbTlTFkty3fiUgzoW by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:28:19Z
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@freemo Well, to discuss this dimension, we need an actual definition of suffering.What is your definition of a minimal system to experience suffering?I would include some form of consciousness, as in “current LLMs might output the phrase ‘i am suffering’, but they do not, as they purely remix”. Animals do change behaviour, they can sometimes detect context (something happened accidentially). At least mammals can, probably many more species.So, if you include first nervous cells developing, i would argue that you are including a /potential/ for suffering, but not demanding actual suffering. The same would be true from conception, taken to the extreme from just the existence of a fertile male and female.Additionally, enforcing any birth has the potential for great suffering in case the care is not done well. So if you force a mother to give birth, then the child will suffer if that mother is unable to provide, if the father is abusive, if their finances break down, etc.If we cannot determine this (what can suffer) exactly, i circle back to empowering the person that has direct consequences. If a hard choice is to be made, taking it out of this persons hand is oppression in my view. The unborn is not able to weigh in, it cannot comprehend or communicate.Side node: A problem i have (ethically) with reproduction is that it is always without consent.It is impossible to ask a child-to-be if it wants to be born, and when that becomes possible, it is too late. So, we are somehow looking at one side (protect life), but completely ignore the consent side - did this life want to exist?
(DIR) Post #AbbUCmgCmYANmn5WaW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:33:13Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven What is your definition of a minimal system to experience suffering?this is already back to where I started. We cant define exactly when suffering, consciousness, or thought begins. We dont have the ability to test for it.The only thing we know is it requires a brain, and we therefore know it is garunteed not to be possible before 10weeks, and that sometime between 10 weeks and infinity those properties develop.Therefore 10 weeks is the natural line… Now if you want to move it beyond 10 weeks it is on you to prove that suffering and consciousness is not possible before the new time period you propose.And while you cant ask a child if it wants to be born,t hat doesnt matter. Our laws are such that murdering something is wrong whether it wants to be murdered or not. But obviously doubly so if you assume and the thing you kill gave no indication it wanted to die.
(DIR) Post #AbbUINgCe1LVzGkvGC by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:34:17Z
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@freemo Hmm, i don’t understand the law argument. This was a discussion about what should be, not about what is, right?
(DIR) Post #AbbUSFGUmiQEmlR29o by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:36:02Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenAre you suggesting we should be free to murder people wyho havent explicitly expressed a will to live? If someone is nonverbal for example we should be free to shoot them in the head at will?I would think that we agree that if someone doesnt express they have a will to live that it should be the default assumption unless stated otherwise. Afterall it is the case for virtually everyone with only a few exceptions. Even those exceptions we try to treat first.
(DIR) Post #AbbUgDeXZkDZq7LSro by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:38:35Z
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@freemo Not sure where you left the discussion i was having - i did not say “express a will to live”, i asked where suffering begins, then, seperately i declared the lack of consent to be born is a problem for me. Let’s leave it at that for the moment, i’m getting a bit tired.
(DIR) Post #AbbUyapw7L6ixIR9GK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:41:53Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenThe entire end of your last message left on this note:? So, we are somehow looking at one side (protect life), but completely ignore the consent side - did this life want to exist?
(DIR) Post #AbbUzfKMuEfNAnBNrM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T17:42:05Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenThe entire end of your last message left on this note: So, we are somehow looking at one side (protect life), but completely ignore the consent side - did this life want to exist?
(DIR) Post #AbbWxwxqYtk7CYxSOu by kj6dbe@mastodon.hams.social
2023-11-08T18:04:11Z
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@freemo Wow, what a leap in logic.Unless someone is flashing their genitals in public, their genitals are of nobody else's concern.The problem is that you 𝐚𝐥𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐲 𝐚𝐫𝐞 claiming the right to tell others what they can do with their own bodies, based on their genitals, which opens yours as a topic of discussion.Of course it's fascinating that in a discussion on abortion, you immediately pivot to comparing it with committing murder.
(DIR) Post #AbbXBth5W9Iz74lms4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T18:06:41Z
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@kj6dbe > Unless someone is flashing their genitals in public, their genitals are of nobody else's concern.Great then we agree, I am not flashing my genitals in public therefore its none of your business, leave me alone you perv.> The problem is that you 𝐚𝐥𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐲 𝐚𝐫𝐞 claiming the right to tell others what they can do with their own bodies, based on their genitals, which opens yours as a topic of discussion.Right, just like someone who is claiming what transpeople can or cant do with their body by entering a bathroom. Therefore they have to announce their genitals like yo demand of me right? Yea you can get out of here with that sexist bs.
(DIR) Post #AbbXFC9rKDX5FNne2S by trinsec@trinsec.org
2023-11-08T18:00:32.724Z
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@freemo@qoto.org Shrugs. Difference of opinion. Plus pregnancy tests aren't free here. They're cheap, sure, but not free.
(DIR) Post #AbbXFD1O7CLnvOqOTQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T18:07:14Z
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@trinsec I am describing a scenario where abortion is limited to 10 weeks which is only viable with free pregnancy tests.. without free pregnancy tests then I couldnt support a 10 week pwerioud.
(DIR) Post #AbbZZgwql1PKRPcG5A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T18:33:25Z
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@kj6dbe Oh and dont forget next time your pulling this sexist nonsense you bother to demand anyone with an opinion on abortion describe their genitals AND tell you if they are post-menopause or otherwise sterile... Remind them they are required to tell you so you can verify if they are permitted their opinon, since once they cant bear children, according to you, they are no longer allowed an opinion on abortion.::rolls eyes::
(DIR) Post #Abbh17duJcDqjLmayu by TammyGentzel@awscommunity.social
2023-11-08T19:56:48Z
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@freemo Absolutely incorrect interpretation of my meaning. I am saying a fetus is not yet a human and will not be until it is birthed. As to the 10 week designation that now the fetus is a human, you said you set that time because that’s when neurons develop, the fetus is possibly capable of thought, and is therefore human. But the presence of neurons is not, in and of themselves, an indicator of being human…being birthed is.
(DIR) Post #AbbhbsKYCzsfxHFoiO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-08T20:03:26Z
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@TammyGentzel > Absolutely incorrect interpretation of my meaning. > I am saying a fetus is not yet a human and will not be until it is birthed. I know and I explained why your argument for that case is invalid. Who is or isnt a human has very little to do with who is or is not justified in killing. plus its a metaphysical question that is completely fabricated, unlike my position which is based on the known facts and science (development of neurons).> As to the 10 week designation that now the fetus is a humanI never said it was a "human" after 10 weeks.. but if you want to go there, it is a human before gametes even meet by definition. Sperm are human cells and thus human, as are eggs. So if "human" is the criteria you've already lost that argument. What you did try to do however was specify "independent human" in which case its independence seems of importance not if it is human, and I have debunked that perspective as well.> you set that time because that’s when neurons develop, the fetus is **possibly** capable of thought, and is therefore human.Correct, prior to 10 weeks we know for a fact it is capable of thought. After 10 weeks we dont (and cant) know the exact point where it will be capable of thought but we know for certain it happens after 10 week period.> But the presence of neurons is not, in and of themselves, an indicator of being human…being birthed is.Wrong on both accounts. An embryo by definition is human prior to being birthed.. a hell a fingernail is human by definition, thus this is a horrible definition. Being "birthed" has never been required for the definition of what is or is not human. you are just trying to seperate yourself fromt he independence argument now that you realize it is a failed argument.
(DIR) Post #AbbiQTkvKtvYVUifqa by TammyGentzel@awscommunity.social
2023-11-08T20:12:36Z
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@freemo
(DIR) Post #AbckHcC8z7Ip8lJRUu by kj6dbe@mastodon.hams.social
2023-11-09T08:08:07Z
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@freemo Wow. What a lot of verbiage to attempt to distract from the fact that 𝐲𝐨𝐮 are the one proposing imposing an arbitrary constraint on woman, and that I pointed out those constraints that would not apply to yourself.But, I'm the one who is supposed be "Sexist"? Yeah, right. You may be a software developer, but making logical arguments doesn't seem to be your strong point.