Post AbZgekGe9dpZXxJSDo by zardoz03@mastodon.online
(DIR) More posts by zardoz03@mastodon.online
(DIR) Post #AbZfSr5Et3kvFzk9wG by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-11-07T20:29:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I just learned today that the builtin sqlite #Emacs module cannot load arbitrary SQLite extensions: there is a short list of allowed extensions, and you cannot work around it without patching Emacs.I really hope Emacs is one day freed from the FSF, this is getting embarassing.
(DIR) Post #AbZgekGe9dpZXxJSDo by zardoz03@mastodon.online
2023-11-07T20:43:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@galdor As of writing I have started a patch regarding it but I have not gotten to compiling it and testing it, and if you wish i will send you the current state of it
(DIR) Post #AbZgu635SEe7RaI4G0 by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-11-07T20:46:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@zardoz03 I had a quick look, it is trivial to disable. I would not be surprised if someone managed to convince major Linux distributions to patch default Emacs packages.I don't have a need for any SQLite extension, but these kinds of shenanigans frustrate me to no end.
(DIR) Post #AbbGioDPD4eOSMzftI by cmeier@hostux.social
2023-11-08T15:02:10Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@galdor > Trying to stop users from doing something through usage restrictions in free software is as ineffective as pushing on an object through a long, straight, soft piece of cooked spaghetti.-- Richard StallmanAlthough he was speaking about license restrictions, the statement could as easily be applied to software that will only import an allowed list of extensions. Seems oddly inconsistent if #emacs does this with sqlite extensions.
(DIR) Post #AbbX8Mf3sMYfnN8Zo8 by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-11-08T17:24:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cmeier There is really nothing inconsistent about it, GNU develops Emacs, and we do not want our software to be used to subjugate users, e.g., by loading non-free extensions which this is about, and would working against our own goals. Nobody is stopping @galdor from making a patch, the GNU Emacs maintainers don't want it though... Simple as that.
(DIR) Post #AbbX8Ngs37bEzGzXGa by cmeier@hostux.social
2023-11-08T18:01:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amszmidt @galdor > we do not want our software to be used to subjugate users, e.g., by loading non-free extensions...Should it really be up to #emacs to decide what a user can or cannot easily load? IIRC, Stallman use to rail about "fascist limits" (by which he meant things like arbitrary line lengths) and this strikes me as a kind of fascist limit imposed by free software which says "we won't make it easy to work with $X just because we don't like $X's license."
(DIR) Post #AbbX8OwVOThSs3JXH6 by louis@emacs.ch
2023-11-08T18:06:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cmeier @amszmidt @galdor With this line of argument Emacs shouldn't even run on macOS or Windows. Nor should it be allowed to write proprietary software (or books) with it.I always thought that Free Software is all about freedom. According to GNU, it's rule 0: "The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose". What happens here is pure paternalism. Clearly an overstepping of boundaries by the responsible people in the Emacs Dev Team.#Emacs #GNU
(DIR) Post #AbbX8P7qiIm3REcaxM by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-11-08T17:32:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cmeier There is this strange entitlement from some people, where they demand that projects must fold to their heed .. and this is a great example of it. "My feature is not added! Abolish it all!" Minor side note, GNU Emacs, is developed by the GNU project and not by the FSF. The two are different entities, with shared goals.
(DIR) Post #AbbYaEPSFUrKGWgn4K by galdor@emacs.ch
2023-11-08T18:22:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@louis @cmeier @amszmidt@mastodon.social RMS and the FSF have always been about preaching some kind of moral high ground which never really made sense.It starts with the whole copyright assignment process, and extends to dubious technical decisions. See for example past GCC limitations because they were terrified of a company writing tools based on the output of the compiler (they changed their tune with the arrival of Clang when they realized they were going the way of the dodo).This is slowly getting better (GCC dropped copyright assignment), but Emacs has a special place in RMS heart, so we're still stuck with him and the maintainers he chose (and these maintainers do a good job in general, even though I really dislike this trend of bundling up everything in the base distribution).
(DIR) Post #Abbr3JJqs9Md475HPc by dragestil@hostux.social
2023-11-08T21:49:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@louis @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor i think it is a matter of strategy. Having emacs available on windows/Mac helps increase the free software adoption. Allowing non free extensions in a otherwise free environment harms user freedom.
(DIR) Post #AbbrNVdemL7f45ym6S by louis@emacs.ch
2023-11-08T21:52:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dragestil @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor Same line of argument, still against freedom rule 0. What you say is that when it is in the interest of GNU/Emacs (publicity) it is ok to let it run in a user-harming environment, but when it is about user interests, it is not ok.That logic really escapes my understanding of free software. There is literally no other GNU component that blocks the user from installing non-free extensions by design.
(DIR) Post #Abbs7tMktQTJyWBt32 by louis@emacs.ch
2023-11-08T22:01:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dragestil @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor Also, I'd like to add, devs are doing Emacs a disservice by that approach. Any free software should demonstrate that it is all about "do what you want with it", not "we decide what you can do with it"... because that is exactly what big tech is doing.This specific case might not be a big deal for most users but it shows the direction of where the development of Emacs is heading.
(DIR) Post #AbbsACVufnlVwKZifw by dragestil@hostux.social
2023-11-08T22:01:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@louis @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor > Same line of argument, still against freedom rule 0.Sorry but this is simply not true. Emacs is free software, abiding by all 4 freedoms. You can patch it to use any nonfree extensions you like.
(DIR) Post #AbbsIhoaBEpjKqMZRQ by mia@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-08T22:03:17.433019Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dragestil @louis @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor This is why I just use a Mac. They just work.
(DIR) Post #AbbsSPmy3VEuKAEmVE by Maholmire@crlf.ninja
2023-11-08T22:05:01.316665Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Would've been an Apple Fanboy myself had it not been for me growing up poor.
(DIR) Post #AbbsyAG5KfsjQMzp7A by phnt@fluffytail.org
2023-11-08T22:10:44.291301Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amszmidt @cmeier And with this post you proved you probably never tried to submit patches to any GNU or FSF software. Bugfixes are usually fine, but anything implementing a feature or any kind of architectural change is a nightmare, because many maintainers are extremely stubborn to any external opinion and the only right way is their way.
(DIR) Post #AbbuV2utkXVgAHKTM8 by dragestil@hostux.social
2023-11-08T22:27:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@louis @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor > There is literally no other GNU component that blocks the user from installing non-free extensions by design.Librejs, unlock origin, any antivirus program. They all block malicious programs from being installed / executed. And nonfree software is malicious by design
(DIR) Post #Abc02eVJWNVc4DCrDM by dekkzz76@emacs.ch
2023-11-08T22:28:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@louis @cmeier @amszmidt @galdor doesn't bother me in the slightest, GNU has their beliefs & they stick to them.as far as emacs on macos goes, apple make no bones it's not supported & more than 2/3rds of issues i see are mac users whining it doesn't work.
(DIR) Post #Abc02fTvszzx6DZGhU by louis@emacs.ch
2023-11-08T23:29:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dekkzz76 @galdor > GNU has their beliefs & they stick to themGNU can't even agree on who are the actual maintainers of Emacs:https://lists.gnu.org/r/emacs-devel/2021-12/msg01401.htmlSo, having read the whole thread about the sqlite implementation it is clear that there were two different directions on how to handle the loading of extensions [which they wanted excluded in the distribution]. Those who were in favor of keeping it open for users to easily load them, and those who religiously wanted to make it hard to impossible to "protect users" (a.k.a. the "Vulgate-only rule").Personally, I'm not in favor on the latter approach for reasons already pointed out. If the answer is "you can always patch Emacs", that is just a blatant disregard of a huge group of Emacs users who are not C developers and can neither patch nor compile it easily if at all. In my mind Emacs is a universal platform and should be accessible to everyone, that includes macOS and Windows users who still make up 97+% market share in desktop computing. However, the _actual_ maintainers (not those who self-proclaim that they are still in power) do a really good job to make Emacs attractive and modernize it whenever possible. 🚀​
(DIR) Post #AbckWQL5LXukiKYXsu by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-11-09T08:10:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@louis @dekkzz76 @galdor euphemism for 'fuck you lad'. Outside suckless.org corners that is.I'd go out on a limb and consider the 'just' adverb relating to tech to be a slight slur as well.
(DIR) Post #AbclJrqbrLIgDfsV3A by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-11-09T07:24:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt Funny. I’ve been contributing to the GNU project for some odd 30 years, and maintained and maintain several GNU projects. So I think I can call this bullshit.
(DIR) Post #AbclJsdAwm9GeIbHkW by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-11-09T07:45:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt this reads more like “my patches with lots of issues that I don’t want to address got rejected” (which is a very frequent occurrence, and can be anything from refusing to reindent the code or rename some variables to make it more consistent, or rework the design so it fits better overall with the project goals!) and not stubbornness.
(DIR) Post #AbclJtKQLyk8oQppA0 by phnt@fluffytail.org
2023-11-09T08:19:44.139024Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amszmidt Some of my patches for binutils and GCC are probably still there, if that code wasn't removed. They were minor patches regarding building a cross compiler for at that time obscure architecture and OS (Solaris 9 and SPARC) on Windows, which needed a small refactoring of some parts of that code, because nobody used those code paths for years probably and it was essentially borked. While the communication wasn't ideal, it wasn't that bad. All of that was probably almost a decade ago. What formed my opinion around GNU maintainers was my short involvement with GNU Hurd. Basically any discussion where RMS and some other people turned up was like this: It will be done this way, because... and at that point any progress basically stopped. While I haven't been involved in GNU software for a long time now, I still talk to some people that need to, and the situation hasn't improved that much if at all.
(DIR) Post #AbcnRZkbE8aSJls0PI by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-11-09T08:21:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt Maybe you should talk to more... But this is no different than any other project where your goals are not aligned with the project you are contributing to. If I went up to the vim people and told them that now vim will use Emacs keybindings ... I'm sure I'd be in for a roller coaster of a ride.
(DIR) Post #AbcnRbiXuk8IPyvOU4 by phnt@fluffytail.org
2023-11-09T08:43:33.537002Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amszmidt I wouldn't consider figuring out how to improve the performance of some notoriously slow parts of Hurd as not aligned with the project. If I tried to for example implement NTFS support, then the argument could be made.At this point I think we can agree to disagree and move on.