Post AbXkNI1NvmDIWKBcUy by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
(DIR) More posts by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
(DIR) Post #AbVfi08Ojzub2VbTqi by KevinCarson1@kolektiva.social
2023-11-05T22:02:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Someone on Bluesky named Helen Rosner added some nuance to the Palestine conflict.She pointed out that, while the foundation of Israel was indisputably by settlers, aimed at expelling and supplanting the indigenous population, and included large-scale atrocities, it's still overlooked that many of those settlers were refugees and displaced persons who were simply put on ships from Europe, or Mizrahim who were expelled from Baghdad and other places.In my opinion, there's simply no viable solution -- whether Two-State, One-State, or some kind of Buberist confederal No-State solution -- that ignores the basic fact that Jews born since 1948 can't be sent back to their ancestors' countries of origin.I don't mean to pontificate or to imply that there are any easy solutions. Obviously any settlement will have to include acknowledgement of the crimes against humanity involved in creating Israel, a cessation of ongoing harm, and reparations (including a full right of return and political self-determination). But it's an incredibly messy problem that can't be solved on the basis of simple slogans.
(DIR) Post #AbVfi1D2kDDoNCmhjE by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-11-05T22:13:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@KevinCarson1 I feel like we are overlooking a thing in this situation: EuropeWhat you state is correct but it is Europe who (mainly) put all this into motion when they didn't want to deal with their issues involving Jews (and others) and basically putting them in this situation to begin with.The first checks should be made from them, the original firestarters of today's events (at least for this region, et al) and they know it.But they don't want any part of that... 🤔
(DIR) Post #AbWLasUgwggzOIJipk by billiglarper@rollenspiel.social
2023-11-06T06:03:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Aviva_Gary @KevinCarson1 And I feel like you are taking the easy way out with what's at best half-truths. A lot of Jews were already living in Palestine, peacefully and without chasing anyone out, when the UN divided the area into Israeli and Arab sections.Please look it up for exact numbers, but very roughly:- Around WWI, 600k Arabs and 94k Jews were living in Palestine.- Between WWI and WWII, populations increased by 700k Arabs and 588k Jews.
(DIR) Post #AbXR1vA7pKCSPjN6jA by bifouba@kolektiva.social
2023-11-06T09:33:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@billiglarper @Aviva_Gary @KevinCarson1 About the "living peacefully without chasing anyone out", I suggest you read a few first-hand accounts from that time (1930s and 1940s well before 1948) of Europeans and newly-arrived Jews who reported on their uncomfortable encounters with armed Jewish settlers who were openly telling them that they were preparing to kill or force out the Arabs and claim the land. Of course those were largely non-native Zionists, not members of the long-term resident Jewish population.
(DIR) Post #AbXR2AKxPKmFTfYTC4 by KevinCarson1@kolektiva.social
2023-11-06T17:30:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bifouba @billiglarper @Aviva_Gary A lot of the "settlers peacefully acquired the land by purchase" narratives also ignore the fact that the land was purchased not from the inhabitants but from landlords, who evicted their tenant farmers. In that, it's a lot like right-"libertarian" charter city projects organized on former peasant land enclosed by coup regimes.
(DIR) Post #AbXR2F0E3qAHwotU4e by bifouba@kolektiva.social
2023-11-06T17:46:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@KevinCarson1 @billiglarper @Aviva_Gary Kevin, while I truly value the solidarity, this thread had taken on the character of a bilateral conversation where we, I dare say, we established some trust that we are both decent and reasonable people open to being convinced by facts and good arguments, in addition to both understanding the specifics of the Germsn context. What I’m saying is I don’t want @billiglarper feel like the terms of the debate have now changed and he‘s being ganged up on. But you are right, of course, subtantively, and thank you, truly.
(DIR) Post #AbXR2PxnJDkvwSqCJM by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-11-06T18:38:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bifouba @KevinCarson1 @billiglarper Ah... thank you kindly but I was not trying to gang up on anyone... this helps little in the larger context of things and usually gets people no where. What is eating my goat is everyone is yelling about (generally) the Middle East this and the Middle East that when I'm sitting here like... yeah... and who made matters worse? Who helped start this fire? Should people be better and not their worse selves yes, but that is not our current situation... 🤔
(DIR) Post #AbXRSCZHjdFTvUfhbc by KevinCarson1@kolektiva.social
2023-11-06T17:17:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@billiglarper @Aviva_Gary "Europe" includes the backdrop of massive European antisemitism against which the Zionist movement was formed.
(DIR) Post #AbXRSDQ6ZFV2ZJNsw4 by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-11-06T18:43:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@KevinCarson1 @billiglarper Yes
(DIR) Post #AbXaAssUaYnZWTTNZ2 by KevinCarson1@kolektiva.social
2023-11-06T20:21:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Aviva_Gary @billiglarper And the very idea of an ethnonational state -- a "State of the X People," in which the Nation is defined in terms of an idealized, fictionalized version of the culture and dialect of one tiny region and then imposed on all the others -- which arose in revolutionary France and spread like wildfire, didn't help. For that matter, the whole manufactured idea of the Israeli "New Jew," and the resulting violent suppression of actual Jewish cultures like Yiddish, was also pretty perverse.
(DIR) Post #AbXbG1dtWthg6jf0HQ by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-11-06T20:33:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@KevinCarson1 @billiglarper I would argue this is a form of Democide (sp?) and everyone in state (and to an extent) Jewish cultures not part of the in group everywhere (simply via fallout) were the victims.
(DIR) Post #AbXk4hjU73OelCx3ey by billiglarper@rollenspiel.social
2023-11-06T22:12:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Aviva_Gary @bifouba @KevinCarson1 Shouldn't the question be "How do we make it better?" Though to be honest, our online posting prob won't change much.And unfortunately, many online discussions seem to be aimed at reinforcing an identity and polarisation more than anything else.With repercusions for Muslims and Jews outside of Palestine.
(DIR) Post #AbXkNI1NvmDIWKBcUy by Aviva_Gary@noc.social
2023-11-06T22:15:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@billiglarper @bifouba @KevinCarson1 Oh... I most assuredly agree. However I think the solution (such as one finds one) is very simple in thought but very hard in reality. However... if we don't want a repeat of this, we need to know EXACTLY how we got here in the first place and then stop that shit from happening to someone else. ✊
(DIR) Post #AbYpLrpIX0ltuwdM48 by billiglarper@rollenspiel.social
2023-11-07T10:46:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Aviva_Gary @bifouba @KevinCarson1 I don't think there's a problem of understanding.Forced displacement and genozide aren't that complicated concepts. And "Creating a stateless people with 'right of return' as a major part of their identity" being problematic is no rocket since either. (Btw, that applies to Palestinians and Jews.)Still, even if there's a genozidal war like in Ukraine, there's no intervention. "Responsibility to protect" is dead. Big refugee camps without hope are normal.