Post AbXVpFSFZJrHM7csG8 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
(DIR) More posts by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
(DIR) Post #AbWzybIEXvGr9xMANc by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T13:33:50Z
0 likes, 5 repeats
Element informed the Foundation that it will be forking Synapse and Dendrite: https://matrix.org/blog/2023/11/06/future-of-synapse-dendrite/We'll do our best to answer your questions, address concerns, and find a path forward together.
(DIR) Post #AbX0rI79YOHRbZFhOi by skyfaller@jawns.club
2023-11-06T13:44:06Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@matrix Haven't we learned anything from repeated CLA debacles? I welcome the license change to AGPLv3, but making future contributors sign a CLA means Element could change the license again to be no longer open source. Then the community would have to fork it again, like with Terraform and OpenTofu.I'm with Drew on this: https://drewdevault.com/2023/07/04/Dont-sign-a-CLA-2.html
(DIR) Post #AbX1RQCEyxJp60rOJk by networkexception@chaos.social
2023-11-06T13:50:44Z
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@matrix a very bad sign for the whole ecosystem I fear :/I hope this benefits independent implementations more in the end, mature homeservers made by the community
(DIR) Post #AbX50w5Mi8JzzpGpMG by lambda@chaosfurs.social
2023-11-06T14:30:31Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@matrix yikes. Ever more reasons to move to conduit on the server side and anything other than Element on the client.
(DIR) Post #AbX6xZI3CtMMKxj3ya by a1ba@suya.place
2023-11-06T14:53:57.590125Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@matrix guys you can't implement a reliable server for your unreliable protocol.How about not forking anything and finish what you already got
(DIR) Post #AbX84WOaT1ibLCf9BQ by captainepoch@stereophonic.space
2023-11-06T15:05:59.276355Z
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@matrix Really? A CLA? Goddamnit...
(DIR) Post #AbXA2jKJcPQEm7wDya by baltakatei@twit.social
2023-11-06T15:28:31Z
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@matrix “Future contributions to Element’s forks will use the reciprocal AGPLv3 license, —”😀“—with a Contributor License Agreement (CLA).”☹️#fsf #foss
(DIR) Post #AbXA9EXMUYJVJI8plI by amszmidt@mastodon.social
2023-11-06T15:29:37Z
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@baltakatei @matrix Depends what the CLA states ... they aren't inherently bad.
(DIR) Post #AbXBDQUm4aljViUiVU by Greg@social.coop
2023-11-06T15:40:13Z
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@matrix Quick question: Is the CLA a "I promise I have the right to contribute this code, but I retain copyright myself" or "I give the foundation all copyrights over my contribution, thus allowing it to re-license it without my future permission"?
(DIR) Post #AbXCFR1x9d1bhgXF7Q by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T15:51:45Z
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Thank you all for your questions!It's still early on the West Coast of the US where our Managing Director is located, so we're just getting started here.We'll begin responding to folks shortly.
(DIR) Post #AbXCp65GViPbAE5bkG by herzenschein@furry.engineer
2023-11-06T15:58:16Z
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@matrix I have two questions. Given the following:"Synapse and Dendrite have been under the auspices of the Foundation since 2019. Our role has been to hold the assets and provide some infrastructure.""The vast majority of maintenance and development on these projects comes from folks working at Element."I see that both Synapse and Dendrite are under the matrix-org namespace on Github.Could you elaborate a bit further on how much of current Synapse/Dendrite development is done by the Element/Foundation folks? What is "assets", "maintenance" and "infrastructure" in this case?Where would the forks be hosted, given the original projects are already on Github under matrix-org?
(DIR) Post #AbXEJmiGgHmc18WtHc by larsmb@mastodon.online
2023-11-06T16:15:03Z
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@matrix Hrm. Why is a DCO no longer deemed sufficient?
(DIR) Post #AbXGRtfIutMRnv8gMK by mirdaki@fosstodon.org
2023-11-06T16:38:43Z
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@matrix I think the Matrix team has done a lot of things right over the years, and think this change should be met with that in mind. I do have a few questions:1. My reading of the CLA is it's necessary for Element to offer proprietary versions of the software or integration with proprietary changes that would normally violate AGPLv3. Is that correct?
(DIR) Post #AbXGijkj1a1Xz3hkki by mirdaki@fosstodon.org
2023-11-06T16:39:32Z
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@matrix 2. I understand Element is the primary driver of Matrix work and they should be have a sustainable path forward. And that the Foundation isn't funded enough to do development on it's own. I do worry moving the projects back under Element is a bad look for the ecosystem, since it heavily favors Element. Could you describe any circumstances (such as more foundation funding or active contributions for other entities) that would prompt moving the projects back under the foundation?
(DIR) Post #AbXGxlWmhsePpiLmPw by mirdaki@fosstodon.org
2023-11-06T16:39:39Z
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@matrix 3. Is some of the motivation related to my first question (again, assuming I understand that correctly) the reason for moving the projects back under Element? If the projects were back under the Foundation's umbrella, could those needs also be satisfied somehow?
(DIR) Post #AbXJM3p6XIDdQxdEQ4 by chromakode@mastodon.social
2023-11-06T17:11:16Z
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@matrix This seems like a reasonable way for Element to continue to sustainably fund development. The CLA gives Element unique power to sell exemptions from the AGPL copyleft requirements for these projects. If Element uses this privilege to grow Matrix as a whole, it seems like a win overall.
(DIR) Post #AbXSDnhTUqEShSCPZY by yuvipanda@hachyderm.io
2023-11-06T18:50:34Z
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@matrix not sure how to see this as anything other than a major breach of trust :(
(DIR) Post #AbXVKdIirITkKwZSts by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:25:50Z
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@skyfaller Indeed, we'd prefer that these projects remain under our auspices, open source, and unencumbered by a CLA.For the avoidance of doubt, the Foundation's mission and rules forbid us from acting for the private benefit of any party, and as such we cannot contribute anything that requires us to sign a CLA wherein the assignment is made to a privately-held entity.We are committed to building up the open source commons around Matrix.
(DIR) Post #AbXVZfSB8boxMAAB28 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:27:45Z
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@networkexception While we hope that Element's decision has the intended impacts for them and the broader ecosystem, we do also hope this shines a spotlight on the rest of the ecosystem.We want to see a world in which the Matrix ecosystem includes multiple stable, popular open source implementations of servers and clients.
(DIR) Post #AbXVpFSFZJrHM7csG8 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:30:42Z
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@lambda This is definitely a good time for the rest of the ecosystem to shine!
(DIR) Post #AbXW5j8kxxWI3cMjlQ by networkexception@chaos.social
2023-11-06T14:00:59Z
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@matrix to be fair, the fork in itself reflects reality and is very fair - element has (always) been the main force behind development.Still taking ownership of the project entirely is pretty bad. It changes synapse (lefts face it, dendrite has been degraded to a playground) from being the forefront of a free, open source messaging ecosystem to an asset of the company, in the hope to get people to pay for developing it further I assume.
(DIR) Post #AbXW5jy9sqdWd2Pmsq by networkexception@chaos.social
2023-11-06T14:38:46Z
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@matrix this ecosystem as a whole is way too dependent on element. This might be the wake up call? I really dont want it to die, at least some version meant for interoperability of huge companies will probably survive given the IETFs MIMI efforts but we would loose the tiny bit of free, partly (mostly?) self hosting community driven instant messaging infrastructure
(DIR) Post #AbXW5kkiyHU73f8ZaC by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:32:44Z
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@networkexception Yes, there's broad agreement internally and externally that we want to see an ecosystem that has a more diverse contributor base and fundamentally doesn't hinge so much on a single vendor.
(DIR) Post #AbXWTLPipcyRQBYxSi by allpurposemat@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-11-06T19:38:25Z
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@matrix This makes me more interested than ever in other server implementations. How does one migrate from one to another? Are there resources on doing this? I'd like to move my small instance from Synapse to something else.
(DIR) Post #AbXWnSYLzvp9M4BxXk by eljas@eliitin-some.fi
2023-11-06T19:38:46Z
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@matrix was dendrite a hermit that lived in the tree? (Humble question)
(DIR) Post #AbXX5FlyFn6Evi2uP2 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:39:26Z
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@bbhtt That's a question best directed at Element. The Foundation's position is that we'd prefer for the projects to remain under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA.
(DIR) Post #AbXXO6AUBgiMdyUym0 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:40:08Z
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@a1ba There are several entities in the mix here, and the Foundation isn't the one doing the forking.
(DIR) Post #AbXXhHVWFj1RJWU48G by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:40:36Z
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@captainepoch Yes, we're hearing a lot about that detail, and understandably so. The Foundation's position is that we'd prefer for the projects to remain under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA.
(DIR) Post #AbXXoK1VITfd8ynlWC by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:41:01Z
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@baltakatei Indeed, the Foundation's position is that we'd prefer for the projects to remain under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA.
(DIR) Post #AbXYH5Yo9Gjogb62TI by jfred@jawns.club
2023-11-06T15:38:32Z
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@skyfaller @matrix I agree in general, but they could have relicensed right now to a proprietary license too, so the CLA doesn't really give them any new rights that they didn't have before.That said, the Element team being the primary contributors to the project is itself concerning. I do think that the structure of the Matrix protocol itself limits their ability to do harm thankfully.
(DIR) Post #AbXYH6do8AKc2ORXu4 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:46:40Z
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@jfred @skyfaller We think this is a great opportunity for the ecosystem to shine, and highlight that the spec remains open source *and* under open governance – though we will also be the first to note that our governance needs improvement.Broadly speaking, we find it concerning when any major open source project is dominated by a single contributor. We look forward to channeling our resources to help improve the size and diversity of the contributor ecosystem in the months and years ahead!
(DIR) Post #AbXYWWZbzt0uoDph5c by yuvipanda@hachyderm.io
2023-11-06T19:46:59Z
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@matrix any idea what the role of the VC funding Element took in this decision? I think the first round was about 5 years ago…
(DIR) Post #AbXYbRrCxXJZd7PYMS by captainepoch@stereophonic.space
2023-11-06T20:03:09.527483Z
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@matrix I would expect a decrease of contributions on Matrix's projects, be aware of that.
(DIR) Post #AbXYgQrE6TvpyenQn2 by nyarlathotep@tirnanog.space
2023-11-06T20:04:36.454948Z
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Well, that’s an interesting development 🥴
(DIR) Post #AbXYl5byWUS1X2spdo by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:51:20Z
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@herzenschein To your questions:1) The Foundation itself never did maintenance or development of either project.2) Assets refers to the copyrights, or at least those which Element was entitled to assign to the Foundation in the first place.3) Infrastructure here refers to the GitHub org, repo, and communications infrastructure including Matrix rooms and their moderation.4) Our understanding is that the forks will live under a GH org belonging to Element.
(DIR) Post #AbXYzf73KKrBgvMtwu by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:52:06Z
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@larsmb The Foundation's position is that we'd prefer the projects remain under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA.As Element is the one implementing a CLA on their forks of the projects, this is a question that only they can answer.
(DIR) Post #AbXZ4JqjoIWdC0xS8u by meso@the.asbestos.cafe
2023-11-06T20:08:55.660152Z
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@matrix hahahahahahahahaha
(DIR) Post #AbXZJ0Y7qlwBg6Fx6u by eibhear@social.gibiris.org
2023-11-06T16:18:54Z
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This post starts off with "Last week, Element informed the Foundation that it will be forking Synapse and Dendrite."It reads like this was news to The Matrix Foundation, and that the foundation was not prepared for it.Is that true? If so, it's very distressing -- If Element and The Matrix Foundation are in dispute, it leaves us who are committed to using and promoting #Matrix confused as to what and who to support. I remember the first days of the XFree86/X.org, the OpenOffice/LibreOffice and the Owncloud/Nextcloud forks, and things we're not pleasant.
(DIR) Post #AbXZJ1LOtZLw8vJIum by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:57:44Z
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@eibhear There had been rumblings that it was a possibility, but it remained in the abstract and so we at the Foundation kept our limited bandwidth focused elsewhere.Last week was just when the decision was made, and when it became necessary for us to deploy resources to respond to the change. 1/2
(DIR) Post #AbXZeND0nXLA2JZIem by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T19:58:15Z
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@haise @eibhear YES! Thank you for plugging that room. We've been having great conversations there today.
(DIR) Post #AbXa1yjBTBMd3ks9Q0 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:01:43Z
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@eibhear Element remains the Foundation's largest supporter. Though there is tension, especially when it comes to matters like this where our positions diverge, we do not expect to be in conflict on more fundamental levels.A meaningful difference between this situation and the others you mention is that the spec remains open source and under open governance.While we hope this change has Element's intended results for the ecosystem, this _is_ a time for the rest of the ecosystem to shine. 2/2
(DIR) Post #AbXaNPCsDWBfGOyc4G by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:05:08Z
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@err931 Absolutely, unequivocally yes.The spec remains open source and under open governance – noting that Synapse and Dendrite only ever checked one of those boxes. And indeed, the soon-to-be-formed Governing Board will be a significant improvement to current open governance of the spec and the Foundation.That said, the Governing Board is just the next big step. We intend to continue taking steps to actualize community governance and further enhance the open source commons around Matrix.
(DIR) Post #AbXalyKJIG4l8VAYbY by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:09:10Z
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@mirdaki Yes, thank you. We also believe the historical perspective is important in understanding what is happening and what may follow.With regards to the reasoning for the CLA, our position is that we'd prefer the projects to remain under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA – and that Element is the only one who can answer the question as to why they're implementing one.
(DIR) Post #AbXb8dAI8bt8AIHtYG by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:22:27Z
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@mirdaki There are several dimensions to this that are difficult to boil down into a thread. Expect more comms from us soon.Our view is that the Foundation's role in developing open source software is to fill gaps that others are not addressing.We would both need to (1) see a gap and (2) have the resources to fund development.Today, we don't have the funds to even meet current obligations. Fixing that and actualizing open governance are the first big projects of our Managing Director.
(DIR) Post #AbXbNN4YFgNabAdDV2 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:24:31Z
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@mirdaki That is a good question that we don't have the answer to!
(DIR) Post #AbXbtwwaPyFz7QRNWy by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:30:29Z
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@yuvipanda We're not happy with the changes and our stance is that we'd prefer the projects to remain under our auspices, unencumbered by a CLA.Given the nature of open source, there's nothing we can do to stop any individual or entity from forking our projects, and that's true of projects at other open source foundations too.We will be doubling down on our efforts to implement open governance and cultivate a contributor base with a diversity of employers and lived experiences.
(DIR) Post #AbXcHWMetKDFdMsKVU by abbe98@mastodon.social
2023-11-06T20:36:29Z
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@matrix does the ASF CLA transfer copyright or is it similar to that of Qt?
(DIR) Post #AbXcYLihiiZzXmDAAq by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:36:37Z
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@csolisr We have every reason to believe the forks will remain interoperable, in part because that is a core selling point for Element.But should that change, the Foundation's role remains: to act as a neutral custodian and to nurture Matrix as efficiently as possible as a single unfragmented standard, for the greater benefit of the whole ecosystem.With that in mind, it would absolutely be within our scope to invest in compatibility should we need to.
(DIR) Post #AbXcocSHGdyC51Hn9c by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:37:23Z
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@allpurposemat We don't have existing resources we can offer on migration, but we do think this is a moment for the rest of the ecosystem to shine!
(DIR) Post #AbXdGQWTE1h7BGVU2a by arjen@idf.social
2023-11-06T20:23:20Z
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@Greg @matrix but the target would not be the foundation, but the company.(I don't understand why the foundation would not remain the owner but switch to the license Element would like the code to have, instead of requiring a fork by Element? What's the role of the foundation in the years to come, if they don't own the codebase?)
(DIR) Post #AbXdGRb7EF0KVxghv6 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:47:57Z
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@arjen @Greg We can't see the reply this was made to so can't respond to original question, but we do want to weigh in on the role of the Foundation:The Foundation's role is first and foremost to steward the spec under an open source license and open governance.When it comes to the role of the Foundation in software development, our stance is that our role is to fill gaps that others are not addressing – which is one reason our R&D is currently focused on Trust and Safety.
(DIR) Post #AbXdWl34g75TTRXoMS by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T20:51:54Z
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@abbe98 This question is best directed at Element or a legal expert, but we believe the relevant clause will answer your question. Sourced from the ICLA linked from https://www.apache.org/licenses/contributor-agreements.html
(DIR) Post #AbXeZG0AfLtu0TwSXI by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T21:09:23Z
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Today is a tough day, and we'd like to thank everyone for the outpouring of support and insightful questions.We're keeping a log of questions and concerns, will be sharing more answers as we have them.Keep in mind:The Matrix spec is the beating heart of the ecosystem. It is under an open source license, and subject to open governance that's slated to become more open when we elect our first Governing Board next year.#Matrix is bigger than any one or two projects.
(DIR) Post #AbXfK50DNXqbVHHz8q by hamburghammer@norden.social
2023-11-06T21:17:33Z
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@matrix Is there a reason for choosing CLA instead of a DCO, if you don't have the intention to relicense?Isn't AGPL restictiv enough?The next step after AGPL is a license like BSO...Seems to me like the Element investors want there money back - faire enough - but why try to stab future contributors in the back 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #AbXfan778qwIwgU7jE by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T21:19:22Z
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@hamburghammer The Foundation's stance is that we'd prefer these projects to remain under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA.Only Element can answer why they've decided to implement a CLA with their forks.
(DIR) Post #AbXgIV7rNjlptlfz8K by n0toose@chaos.social
2023-11-06T21:28:38Z
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@matrix If this is a breakup with Element, PLEASE go around and ask non-Element-affiliated contributors of the ecosystem as to what's going wrong if you want to foster some sort of diversity.
(DIR) Post #AbXgbSGKFhhsWHfpxY by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T21:33:13Z
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@hamburghammer @matrix we’re not trying to stab any contributors; the reason for the CLA is that need to be able to provide alternative licenses to commercial forks (as per https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/selling-exceptions); this is the whole reason for the license shift.
(DIR) Post #AbXh2LhwjJIq0gPvwu by Greg@social.coop
2023-11-06T21:36:56Z
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@matrix @arjen hey, sorry, I deleted my question because it was before my brain started really working and thus I hadn't fully read/comprehended the full post, which answered my question :)Thanks for engaging positively with all the questions here, though!
(DIR) Post #AbXhHdST16CpPCSxRA by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T21:37:04Z
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@n0toose This isn't a breakup with Element, but nonetheless you can expect the Foundation to put in a serious effort to gather feedback so that our efforts are appropriately targeted.On top of being the right thing to do, our resources are too scarce to spend time on solutions that aren't responsive to known issues.
(DIR) Post #AbXiEgaB2mfwBHEJEG by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T21:51:33Z
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@mirdaki @matrix from the Element side: if the Foundation had sufficient funding to pay Element to maintain the projects, then there would be no reason to move them. But instead, this is an attempt to generate enough funding in general (i.e. from dual-licensing to commercial forks) to pay for their development.
(DIR) Post #AbXiTgkchRcZ2zGmcy by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2023-11-06T21:52:51Z
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@matrix Dear, @element, please be honest:You write that you want a CLA> giving Element the right to distribute the contribution commercially.When you write "commercially” you mean “proprietary”. Because FLOSS can always be utilised for _all_ cause, including commercial ones and selling it. This is what e.g sets it apart from pretending licenses like the BSL which want to claim all commercial activities just for a single stakeholder.
(DIR) Post #AbXimpxQh69x6ROGsy by chocolatefossty@im-in.space
2023-11-06T21:53:13Z
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@matrix Why is it tough? The license changed for the better. I haven't heard anything else besides that, did something else happen?
(DIR) Post #AbXiuEUvqt5tEyaUgy by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T21:53:47Z
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@yuvipanda @matrix frankly, it's an effort to keep the show on the road. it's not remotely intended to be a breach of trust, any more than (say) Apache forking the CERN httpd was.
(DIR) Post #AbXjKL6RuuUXFsaInw by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:02:45Z
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@chocolatefossty We definitely like that the new license they chose is still open source! AGPLv3 seems very appropriate, though we'd prefer for the projects to remain with the Foundation and without a CLA.The net of all this may end up being a boon for Element and/or the ecosystem, that remains to be seen. In the meantime, it definitely adds to the workload for the Foundation – in navigating the changes, and in building trust in our work.
(DIR) Post #AbXkuk76VP7fCeoTM8 by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:21:30Z
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@schmittlauch @matrix Have edited the blog post to try to clarify: "giving Element the right to license the contribution commercially to third party proprietary forks so we can use it to help fund Matrix core development in future".
(DIR) Post #AbXlp4vAKa3Jx95lCK by scy@chaos.social
2023-11-06T22:31:27Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix In other words, allow Element to make money by selling code that I have contributed (without receiving any reimbursement for it) to third parties, who may then use it in a closed-source product.Did I get that right?
(DIR) Post #AbXm9l3JOgJKPelMsi by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:35:29Z
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@scy @schmittlauch @matrix yup, precisely. so if that isn't an option for you, don't sign the CLA and maintain your code in a separate tree. The impact to contributors sucks, but the alternative sucks even more.
(DIR) Post #AbXmnr1UcLzeVv21Bo by scy@chaos.social
2023-11-06T22:42:41Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix You do realize that most open source contributors only contribute because they have a strong belief in open source & want their code to _stay_ FLOSS?I mean, I get it, Element is struggling to make ends meet, so you're taking a gamble that being the biggest player in the Matrix ecosystem will make people contribute anyway, and that the community doesn't have the resources to maintain Synapse & Dendrite on their own.You could just ask for donations, you know?
(DIR) Post #AbXmqjzZDPoNZmVVXU by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:43:00Z
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@bbhtt @matrix The reason for the shift is so that Element can dual-license the project to commercial forks who currently don't contribute back. This is also the reason for the CLA, to give Element the right to dual-license. The Foundation could have done the same thing, but is not remotely set up for selling licenses, and it'd put the Foundation in competition with Element, which would be nightmarish. Hopefully this is the least worst outcome.
(DIR) Post #AbXn1d2PPY9rC41oBM by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T22:43:53Z
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@matrix I don't like the precedent that this sets...
(DIR) Post #AbXnC5SMbdwwED9gbQ by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T22:46:09Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix What the fuck? Really? So the codebase being AGPL is just a marketing stunt to hide the CLA that lets you give others' contributions away as proprietary software?
(DIR) Post #AbXnOg7S7YHNPWNVwG by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:48:11Z
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@serebit Indeed, the Foundation's stance is that we'd prefer the projects remain actively maintained under our auspices and unencumbered by a CLA.We're glad they chose an open source license, and we also think this is a moment for the rest of the ecosystem to shine.Ultimately, this is a point in favor of protocols, as the spec is the beating heart of Matrix and remains open source *and* under open governance that will only get more open as we seat the first elected Governing Board next year.
(DIR) Post #AbXnYmVXDvV87USaO0 by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:48:13Z
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@serebit @schmittlauch @matrix the whole blog post is explaining that if we don't find a way to get proprietary forks to contribute back to the core project, either by releasing their code as AGPL, or buying a dual license, then core dev from Element is existentially at risk. It's far from ideal, but it's the least worst solution we can find.
(DIR) Post #AbXnbPkOIpEiOlfFfk by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2023-11-06T22:48:29Z
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@element Thank you. While I am still wary about the incentives this brings for encouraging FLOSS back-contributions vs. selling proprietary licenses (see the OwnCloud-NextCloud story), I guess the biggest concern of most CLA critics is the ability of element pulling a HashiCorp and going proprietary again.You now mention this concern as well in the blog post; have any countermeasures for the CLA been discussed? Like e.g. https://github.com/slint-ui/slint/discussions/244
(DIR) Post #AbXnfHw3HzATKQxxAW by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:51:21Z
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@schmittlauch honestly, we only found about the slint/signal trick via the discussion here today. it looks really interesting, as there is zero desire to pull a hashicorp - we're literally trying to do the opposite.
(DIR) Post #AbXnsRDc5MTRsuRzBw by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T22:48:42Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix In plain terms, you're forking Synapse to profit off of it with the vague assertion that you'll give money back to the Foundation.Eat shit.
(DIR) Post #AbXnsVfPXx5PgHUF4i by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:54:44Z
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@serebit @schmittlauch @matrix in plain terms: we wrote 90%+ of Synapse and we're trying to find ways to get to break-even so we can keep working on it, otherwise it's game over.
(DIR) Post #AbXo3bH52QQCG3OWfY by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T22:56:44Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix You may have wrote 90% of Synapse, but it really must hurt to have made open contributions that you couldn't directly profit off of... The language from the Foundation isn't ambiguous, you used your position as leverage to take these projects out from under their steward, ENTIRELY to make money off of them. I don't care how you justify it, it's unacceptable.
(DIR) Post #AbXo7Xx1Kwwz6mtSuu by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2023-11-06T22:52:37Z
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@serebit @element @matrix To be fair, the maintenance burden of having to refactor downstream changes – even when based on a proprietary relicensed codebase – can be a good motivation to upstream your changes as FLOSS already.Companies use AGPL differently in that regard. Oracle is more on the "better by a proprietary license, or else…" side, others do encourage the FLOSS route more.->
(DIR) Post #AbXo7Z2jHD6wUmZXSC by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2023-11-06T22:54:05Z
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@serebit @element @matrix We should observe how Element behaves – but also realise what they _can_ do now.
(DIR) Post #AbXo7Zs8C6EB4CcaZc by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T22:57:28Z
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@schmittlauch @serebit @matrix we could have sprouted a proprietary fork of Synapse at any point and stopped developing it as FOSS (due to the Apache license). But we have zero desire to do so. If there's a hack we can use to force us to keep the project FOSS as AGPLv3 then we'll use it. However, we're still going to dual-license in order to try to keep the lights on.
(DIR) Post #AbXoGltwq4Mgytr5Xc by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T22:59:07Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix Sure, until you start making a profit. Then "so we can keep the lights on" turns into "so we can shore up our reserves", then "so we can fund an IPO", then "so we can keep our promises to our shareholders". Have you really not noticed the patterns in the industry? Are you that certain that you're immune to them?
(DIR) Post #AbXoVvWjKkKBB6DorA by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T23:01:08Z
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@serebit @schmittlauch @matrix but we're not profiting at all. we are literally not profitable, and given that the Foundation doesn't get enough donations to fund the work, we have to try other means to keep the lights on.
(DIR) Post #AbXoaTLpWBAHExI61A by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T23:02:23Z
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@element @schmittlauch @matrix See my other reply.
(DIR) Post #AbXr6TRauKi0hgNGoS by maxgot@floss.social
2023-11-06T23:22:42Z
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@serebit @element @schmittlauch @matrix Well, they could already do that under the Apache-2.0 license, but now they will be the _only_ ones who can do that.
(DIR) Post #AbXr6bgmFlbiH5XVaa by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-06T23:24:59Z
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@maxgot @element @schmittlauch @matrix Yes, and that should be concerning. What was once an equal agreement to avoid making the software proprietary is now Element holding the keys to the castle and pinkie swearing that they'll be responsible.
(DIR) Post #AbXr6g04DzPje4ayDA by element@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-06T23:30:49Z
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@serebit @maxgot @schmittlauch @matrix if there's a way to lock the code AGPLv3 (while letting us dual-license it to AGPL-allergic people) then hopefully that solves the concern; we're investigating.
(DIR) Post #AbXumDOdGMCExPaHXk by serebit@floss.social
2023-11-07T00:12:01Z
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@element @maxgot @schmittlauch @matrix Poison-pill the CLAs, which has worked for keeping Qt open-source. For a given project, if you attempt to take the upstream repository closed source, it immediately transfers ownership back to the Matrix Foundation and you void all prior license agreements. Get a lawyer to make that clause ironclad, codify it in the CLA, and I'd be satisfied.
(DIR) Post #AbXxRLdri5ccJPS0g4 by reaply@poto.cafe
2023-11-07T00:40:45Z
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@matrix This is going in the wrong direction, and if it continues, I will lose all optimism.
(DIR) Post #AbXxW7ZrQgIS8hqzWy by aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-06T22:19:39.547811Z
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does this mean we go back to irc sooner or later? :p (no i dont want that to happen, unless irc gets modern enough to be easy to use by everyone, even my mom)
(DIR) Post #AbXxY20B87ShQV4fw0 by doskel@a.doskel.net
2023-11-06T22:22:01.048433Z
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@aks we can dream, but odds are someone will just make a different homeserver or fork synapse or smth so we won't achieve enlightenment
(DIR) Post #AbXxYT2wZwiVItZlUe by aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-06T22:32:04.453160Z
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@doskel I rather not go back to those dark days
(DIR) Post #AbXxZICcNjl5xfUi9Y by capital-ex@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-06T23:18:36.948740Z
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@aks Oof, using a CLA too?
(DIR) Post #AbXxZJ7gxXPcogCI76 by aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-06T23:21:52.546376Z
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@capital-ex yeeepit smells a lot like "hey look we have this nice license in front but you gotta sign CLA so we can later sell your shit anyway"
(DIR) Post #AbXxZJr4Ephz5PQWq8 by capital-ex@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-06T23:25:02.200717Z
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@aks The folks at the foundation don't sound very happy about this either. Sensing a very restrained tone of voice in those replies.
(DIR) Post #AbXxZKcDPXQFRdUBKS by aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-07T00:07:49.230346Z
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@capital-ex yeah, heres hoping more homeserver and client implementations of matrix protocol appear. Element has so much weight in the protocol so im worried it sways the whole thing.Or we just go back to irc or xmpp. Im not going back to discord thats for sure.
(DIR) Post #AbY3fsJxbgHdRXS0KO by jbowen@mast.hpc.social
2023-11-07T01:50:26Z
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@matrix I'd like to continue to remind people that IRC still exists.Come join us on @liberachat or OFTC#irc #irssi
(DIR) Post #AbYGW2lLEGDqKrtsAa by chebra@mstdn.io
2023-11-07T04:13:53Z
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@matrix Friends don't let friends use Element.
(DIR) Post #AbYMvL3QxOb81zo89I by yuvipanda@hachyderm.io
2023-11-07T05:27:26Z
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@element @matrix@mastodon.matrix i know it is probably a difficult time at element too, so i hope y’all end up ok.That said, apache was not a for-profit company with millions of dollars of VC funding. Not an apt comparison.
(DIR) Post #AbYQlbGeDoQpEhbGc4 by volpeon@is-a.wyvern.rip
2023-11-07T06:10:35.474Z
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@aks@fedi.akselmo.dev (no i dont want that to happen, unless irc gets modern enough to be easy to use by everyone, even my mom)About that... :drgn_cute:RE: https://is-a.wyvern.rip/notes/9l9r7qu8w80krfmn
(DIR) Post #AbYVwHROmCZGhXXagS by aks@fedi.akselmo.dev
2023-11-07T07:08:12.415386Z
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@volpeon ooh nice!
(DIR) Post #AbYaIWt2QhCknEKkRU by a1ba@suya.place
2023-11-07T07:57:24.009231Z
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@matrix I hope we will see the actually working Matrix some day.
(DIR) Post #AbYxaakX6WkUvowALI by abbe98@mastodon.social
2023-11-07T12:18:14Z
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@element but doesn't this situation exist solely because Element took VC money not because it did not have a CLA?@serebit @schmittlauch @matrix
(DIR) Post #AbYxkCX00C3WiRBlzc by abbe98@mastodon.social
2023-11-07T12:19:56Z
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@element why don't you have a similar CLA to that of Qt then? In which contributors only grant you a license not copyright... @schmittlauch
(DIR) Post #AbYyAJQwxgCNeVoIq0 by ex_06@puntarella.party
2023-11-07T12:24:42Z
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@element @schmittlauch so damn annoying that people can't really see the difference between an open ecosystem trying to have someone that can keep pushing the work selling little modified version to private customers and a damned big tech that took vc money and then tried the stunt on their most famous product to highen up a little market number that only rich people care about
(DIR) Post #AbZ6FjzEStZD5OweMy by Mendy@mastodon.online
2023-11-07T13:53:39Z
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@matrix why did they have to fork rather than having the foundation change to AGPLv3?
(DIR) Post #AbZG9BMJIRZPUhFc92 by matrix@mastodon.matrix.org
2023-11-07T15:45:10Z
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@Mendy While the Foundation could reasonably consider using AGPLv3 as its default license going forward, generally or for a specific project, the only proper way for the Foundation to do so would be to do it holistically and in service of the entire ecosystem – conversely, it'd be improper for us to make such a change at the behest of a single service provider.
(DIR) Post #AbZZsu2RvJu6E4TZDs by suguru@mstdn.progressiv.dev
2023-11-07T19:25:42Z
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@matrix @jfred @skyfaller Have you ever contemplated why the Matrix contributor ecosystem has not grown as much as you expected so far? Don't you think not-so-good communications by those who both contribute to specs and Element might have discouraged possible contributors from even enter the ecosystem? For example, check the discussion full of mistrust and resentment: https://github.com/vector-im/element-meta/issues/339.I guess it is a matter which cannot be solved by changing licenses or replacing DCO with CLA, etc.
(DIR) Post #AbZbR4X5VqvaZafDiC by hamburghammer@norden.social
2023-11-07T19:43:18Z
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@matrix thank you for the answer and you're right, I should have directed the qestion directly to Element.Thanks for your work on shaping the communication of tomorrow.
(DIR) Post #AbZrwN9hvD8OZgfu8u by erdnaxeli@framapiaf.org
2023-11-07T22:48:25Z
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@matrix Doing specs is good, but synapse is the only viable project out there and now that they took full control over it they will have zero incentive to wait for specs to be written before implementing features.You will either be on synapse + element or you will be a second class citizen.That's a shame, I used to like this project.
(DIR) Post #AbaCoullA2FpXwl5yS by mirdaki@fosstodon.org
2023-11-08T02:43:38Z
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@element @matrix Thank you both for responding to my and others questions. I understand being transparent can be challenging when controversial decisions are public, and appreciate the continued communication
(DIR) Post #AbfES2Jq635202iX32 by menturion@mastodon.social
2023-11-10T12:53:26Z
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@matrix Regardless of how Element justifies this step, it remains a breach of trust. Contributors will have to reconsider their support.
(DIR) Post #AcMUQy0LrR8X1sqWJ6 by malte@graeber.social
2023-12-01T09:45:42Z
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@matrix I don't fully understand the different licenses in this case. I think I get the overall dilemma. It reminds me of similar license discussions about profit/non-profit and how to keep actors on a competitive commodity market from exploiting commons. I think Dmitry Kleiner did some really important work with the idea of #copyfarleft that perhaps could be built on.