Post AbVMAUtNym4bSTtNeS by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AbUp9ZbzeM3PJoi0em by dashrandom@kopiti.am
2023-11-04T03:05:26Z
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@freemo haaaaaaavvvvveeeee you been to Asia? š Or mexico is probably closer to you where beating your child is totally normal thing.
(DIR) Post #AbV0NMp169uVCXa2eO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-05T14:30:44Z
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@dashrandom I have. And being normal doesnt change how wrong it is.
(DIR) Post #AbVEsvUBfPab2rmQuu by dashrandom@kopiti.am
2023-11-05T17:12:59Z
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@freemo or perhaps not all right and wrongs are objective but subjective?Culture plays a big role in determining if some behaviours are socially acceptable or not.
(DIR) Post #AbVFG6SR2Z1njZ0pBw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-05T17:17:30Z
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@dashrandom Nah, thats just an excuse we tell ourselves.While one action may be right or wrong given the nuance of the situation for sure, it is not a cultural thing.. What is wrong is that which causes harm and suffering, that is an objective measure even if that suffering may have to some degree cultural components.For example torturing someone for pleasure is **always** objectively wrong, culture accepting that wont change it, it just make you more naive to doing wrong. No cultural perspectives can change the fact that act is one that causes net suffering.Same goes back to beating little kids. No amount of cultural acceptance removes the suffering and harm inflicted and thus is objectively and universally wrong regardless of culture.
(DIR) Post #AbVGLQMOZQJYrYHwH2 by dashrandom@kopiti.am
2023-11-05T17:29:06Z
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@freemo what if beating kids prevents them from doing things that will cause them even greater harm in future? As far as I know, most parents don't beat their kids out of anger but rather to discipline them.If that discipline prevents even greater self destructive behaviour in future (e.g. playing with fire, running with scissors, etc), is it not justified? Keep in mind that it takes time for children to understand concepts of right and wrong or "this could kill/hurt me or others".
(DIR) Post #AbVGqCpmuRWftEiLz6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-05T17:35:13Z
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@dashrandom what if beating kids prevents them from doing things that will cause them even greater harm in future?What if unicorns shat rainbows? It doesnt, so the what if regarding something that isnt true doesnt mean much. As far as I know, most parents donāt beat their kids out of anger but rather to discipline them.Thats just a lie they tell themselves so they can justify their beatings. And even if it were true it wouldnt make the beatings any less abhorrent.When parents beat their kids āout of disciplinā what they are really saying is they beating them out of frustration and anger that their kids arent listening, nothing more. They just need to pretend they are doing it for altrusitic reasons. Even most murderers need to find an excuse for what they do and usually find a way to excuse it as a greater goodā¦ it isnt. If that discipline prevents even greater self destructive behaviour in futureIt doesnt, quite the opposite, it creates adults with deep rooted psychological issues who are likely to have all sorts of functioning problems. Worse yet since they are never taught to cope with their issues they likely lack the skills to even address their now underlying issues, or even the self awareness to recognizet he problem. They likely just go on to beat their own children and continue the cycle. is it not justified?Since that doesnt happen this is a moot question. Keep in mind that it takes time for children to understand concepts of right and wrong or āthis could kill/hurt me or othersā.No it doesntā¦ by the time a kid is able to learn from a beating they are able to reason. Regardless even if this isnt true there are plenty of punishments that dont require you to beat your child.
(DIR) Post #AbVLsd42rEFHagMFRA by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-05T18:31:43Z
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@freemo @dashrandom Iād add that this ācycleā can also be viewed this way: Using violence to discipline someone sets a standard. Namely that using violence to resolve conflicts is acceptable.It might look like it works short term, since those using violence are usually stronger: Adults vs. Children, Prison guards vs. Prisoners.So to refine the description before: The standard set is that violence to resolve conflict is fine if one is stronger as the other person.Longer term, many of those people will go on to apply said standard. You might just not get to see much of the results individually.
(DIR) Post #AbVLvErvGwo3Pzvr28 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-05T18:32:11Z
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@freemo @dashrandom Iād add that this ācycleā can also be viewed this way: Using violence to discipline someone sets a standard. Namely that using violence to resolve conflicts is acceptable.It might look like it works short term, since those using violence are usually stronger: Adults vs. Children, Prison guards vs. Prisoners.So to refine the description before: The standard set is that violence to resolve conflict is fine if one is stronger than the other person.Longer term, many of those people will go on to apply said standard. You might just not get to see much of the results individually.
(DIR) Post #AbVMAUtNym4bSTtNeS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-05T18:34:55Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenAgreed. But as someone else pointed out there is far more to it than just āteaching a kid violence instead of words is okāā¦ we are talking about children who are emotionally very sensative and often quite scared and need the security and protection of a parent to a reasonable degree.To have the one person you are programmed to trust and look to for safety being the one beating you is a god awful psychological expiernce for a child. It can, and usually will, break a child and give them life long distrust of their parents. This not only has massive psychological issues but it also makes the parent less effective as teaching the child.. this loss of control over the childs trust, and the subsequent lack of any positive results when trying to parent, will lead to just more hitting and abuse out of frustration.@dashrandom
(DIR) Post #AbVMNqo1oflrBdknFw by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-05T18:37:21Z
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@freemo @dashrandom I agree that children are more vulnerable, but i think the concept holds true for adults, too. Itās not like criminals come out of prison as people changed for the betterā¦
(DIR) Post #AbZHB485FKkNbc3gOW by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-07T15:57:51Z
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@freemo @dashrandom I think coming up with silly caricatures of people you disagree with rarely ends up being useful.
(DIR) Post #AbZHM4NaemNpZCYhFY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T15:59:50Z
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@echgood thing no one did that here then. Feel free to explain your criticisms however if you want to have a productive conversation.@dashrandom
(DIR) Post #AbZI6q5Rc8zuqiN9aS by ech@qoto.org
2023-11-07T16:08:19Z
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@freemo @dashrandom I think you know what I mean. š Youāre assuming people you disagree with are doing what they do with the worst possible motives, rather than for the reason they say theyāre doing it. Youāre doing this for no discernible reason. Itās weird.Hereās one of several problems with it: I donāt know, maybe Dash thinks corporal punishment is a responsible way to raise kids, and here maybe you have a chance to convince someone! But instead, you blow the opportunity: you come off like an unhinged person, certainly unlikely to convince anyone who knows very well that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissors.
(DIR) Post #AbZIhWomDaQjnp4SxM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T16:14:55Z
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@ech @dashrandom Youāre assuming people you disagree with are doing what they do with the worst possible motives, rather than for the reason they say theyāre doing it. Youāre doing this for no discernible reason. Itās weird.Nah you have it backwards. I have witnessed people beating their kids universally having the worst possible motives, without a single exception. As such I came to the conclusion to disagree with their actions. Hereās one of several problems with it: I donāt know, maybe Dash thinks corporal punishment is a responsible way to raise kids, and here maybe you have a chance to convince someone! But instead, you blow the opportunity: you come off like an unhinged person, certainly unlikely to convince anyone who knows very well that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissors.If seeing people who beat kids as bad people with bad motives comes across as āunhingedā Iād suggest you or anyone who might think that is more likely to be the unhinged person and just projecting.You also assume my goal is to convince someone of something and to use less honest language to manipulate them, hiding my actual opinions and giving a fake persona in the hopes of convincing someoneā¦ My goal is not to convince anyone, and I damn well have no intention of manipulating people by hading my unadulterated opinion in order to get a more favorable reaction. My only goal is to share my opinions, and their reasoning. I dont expect a child beater to ever be convinced, if they are great, if they arent its par for the course.
(DIR) Post #AbZJYd3Tl8EuUjGguu by lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com
2023-11-07T16:24:34.196734Z
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@freemo @ech @dashrandom Even if someone punch their kids with the GOOD MOTIVES, the kids are still likely will grow psychologically injured, so if they think beating kids is good anyway, i recommend these people to stop complaining about crazy nazi mass shootings š
(DIR) Post #AbZJl7QydWvuBkDO08 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T16:26:48Z
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@lonelyowl Agreed, their motives for beating their kids doesnt really change the equation anyway.. either they are aware that they are abusive horrible people who should have their kids taken away from them, or they arent aware of it... What excuses a child beater tells themselves, and believes really matters very little. So even if it were a factual excuse it would not change anything about my judgements or them being deserving of punishment (the adults who do the beating).@dashrandom @ech
(DIR) Post #AbZKNeapnhJu28CUXg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T16:33:46Z
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@lonelyowl Another important point.. you said:> anyone who knows very well that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissorsAs I stated, I do think parents genuinely lie to themselves and believe the lie that they do it for the "greater good"... I said that ready. So yes the assumption is they "know" they are doing it with good intent, its still a lie and there is some part of them that is fully aware thats not why they are doing it. But people are just too good at lying to themselves.So yea i fully believe they are convinced they do it for "disciplin" even though it is lie both to themselves and others.@dashrandom @ech
(DIR) Post #AbZKRIkuvvfdSqejdQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T16:34:26Z
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@echAnother important point.. you said: anyone who knows very well that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissorsAs I stated, I do think parents genuinely lie to themselves and believe the lie that they do it for the āgreater goodāā¦ I said that ready. So yes the assumption is they āknowā they are doing it with good intent, its still a lie and there is some part of them that is fully aware thats not why they are doing it. But people are just too good at lying to themselves.So yea i fully believe they are convinced they do it for ādisciplinā even though it is lie both to themselves and others.@dashrandom @lonelyowl
(DIR) Post #AbZMNjTjptgp5t2x2O by dashrandom@kopiti.am
2023-11-07T16:56:06Z
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@freemo @ech my parents beat me growing up. I don't think it was done for bad reasons for the majority of the time.I'm not a child beater (not yet anyway). I was the beaten child and I think getting beat did me good. Most of my friends I know grew up getting beaten by their parents. Most of them don't look back at the beatings with trauma. Conversely, some kids who don't get beat as children turn out to be good-for-nothings or criminals.Culture and context is important. But sure, you do you
(DIR) Post #AbZMgg2OqyzBvMID3Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T16:59:33Z
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@dashrandom As I said, I expect you to have that opinion... When you beat a kid they tend to be quite subservient tot he views of the parent, its a tremendously powerful form of brain washing.You are also talking to a person who comes from a gamily who bleives strongly in spankings for disciplin and I myself was also beat as a child. Thankfully as a result of that beating I left home and moved out on my own at 15 to get away fromt he abuse... so I am more the exception than the rule as someone who isnt broken by that beating but instead stands up for himself. I also told my mom I'd punch her int he fucking face if she ever tried laying a hand on me again once I was old enough to defend myself... and I happily did.@ech
(DIR) Post #AbZNlSRiuj9rAlytIu by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-11-07T17:11:41Z
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@freemo @ech @dashrandom Amazing. Getting opposition to ādo not beat kidsā.Could the opposing people please disclose if they are US citizens or from somewhere else?
(DIR) Post #AbZNvD3sy4ZQM2Ttdw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T17:13:23Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenYea apparently im āunhingedā for thinking child beaters are bad people who come up with motives to convince themselves they are good peopleā¦ If that is unhinged I am pretty damn happy to be unhinged.@ech @dashrandom
(DIR) Post #AbZP4szyW5zOyopWWu by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-11-07T17:26:24Z
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@dashrandom Can you back that up?Ask ChatGPT "What mental problems has psychiatric studies found in children growing up with corporal punishment?"Long answer, pointing out that a. it doesn't affect children equally, b. is on-going research c. Many experts advice against it.List of issues; Aggression and Conduct Problems, Anxiety and Depression, Lower Self-Esteem, Increased Risk of Substance Abuse, Poor Parent-Child Relationships, Long-Term Psychological Effects@freemo @ech
(DIR) Post #AbZPDEaM8pHcFMpNVw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T17:27:54Z
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@niclas While I certainly agree with ChatGPT here we should refrain from using it as a scholarly source as it has a horrific tendency to get a lot of details wrong too.@dashrandom @ech
(DIR) Post #AbZQatZc0zOJz2KHCq by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-11-07T17:43:23Z
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@freemo @dashrandom @ech Dear Dr. Freemo: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on your own childhood, I am going to say that parents have such a hard time raising children today due to society overcompensating for the committing of notorious or infamous examples of clear and outright child abuse by parents. Many parents find themselves bewildered when they attempt to humanely discipline their children. Sincerely, Monica Andrews, Editor-in-chief, #FreePeoplesfreepress News
(DIR) Post #AbZQiXoYnWzUoexuJU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T17:44:44Z
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@freepeoplesfreepress Not sure I follow... are you saying that parents who are humane to their kids (dont beat them) are bewildered because beating children is so acceptable?@dashrandom @ech
(DIR) Post #AbZSxRBJwOhcUqqAnQ by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-11-07T18:09:51Z
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@freemo @dashrandom @ech Dear Dr. Freemo: Many of the parents that I have talked to over the years want to humanely treat their children, but they still want their children to fear the consequences for acting badly. What does a responsible parent do when the child misbehaves and society says in still discipline in your child or be considered a bad parent. Or attempt to reasonably discipline the child and have the school district call in the social workers and police because the parents yelled at the child for not looking both ways before crossing the street and the child nearly got hit by a car.I know parents that had this happen, social worker, police, psychologist were brought in because the child claimed psychological mental abuse. Fortunately the neighbors told the police what had happened and asked the police why the fuss. Sincerely, Monica Andrews, Editor-in-chief, #FreePeoplesfreepress News
(DIR) Post #AbZSylCD0u8UrLt2Z6 by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-11-07T18:10:07Z
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@freemo Sure... but it was a quick way to confirm my bias ;-)@dashrandom @ech
(DIR) Post #AbZTacrqQWzG28Pvo8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-11-07T18:16:57Z
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@niclas as long asyou take it with a whole heap of salt I have no problem with that :)@dashrandom @ech