Post AbTCfAHBIAcQdb5Suu by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
(DIR) More posts by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
(DIR) Post #AbSFK5FUtRSdfYyl9s by JonathanAldrich@social.sigsoft.org
2023-11-03T20:23:10Z
4 likes, 6 repeats
Surprising fact: no major professional scientific organization has flipped from a paywalled publishing model to 100% Open Access.The @ACM the world's foremost professional computing organization, is going to be the first on January 1, 2026, when its entire digital library will become freely available to the public.
(DIR) Post #AbSvTQcoyyj4eD1k00 by djoerd@idf.social
2023-11-04T14:26:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @ACM 🤦‍♀️ Some never had pay walls to begin with...
(DIR) Post #AbTCfAHBIAcQdb5Suu by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T12:22:52Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@andrejbauer @JonathanAldrich @pigworker @ACM I think being forced to publish in real OA journals like LMCS and the like will certainly lead to an interesting shift of scientific weight — and an increase in prestige for journals run by scientists instead of businessmen…I publish in ACM venues because of coauthors, but I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t have coauthors trying to get American-style jobs. Many of the changes are good, and we should applaud those like Jonathan who fought for them — but in the end, this is a lot of money going toward something that the (working) scientific community overwhelmingly believes we don’t need. A true open access journal can be run for a few hundred dollars per year — and there are plenty of these, even ones that are independent of fantastic programs like Episciences and LiPICS and even arxiv (which is nonetheless extremely cost effective). There are tradeoffs, but certainly not tradeoffs that are worth $700 per paper.
(DIR) Post #AbTCfK8KdvTxD31XVo by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T12:35:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@andrejbauer @JonathanAldrich @pigworker @ACM I think for most people, the priorities for publication venues would be the following if it weren’t for the career blackmail exploited by large publishers like ACM:1) Density of good papers (as far as experts are concerned) already published in the venue2) Good editors who we trust3) Won’t totally wreck our typesetting4) Will not charge us for a service that is entirely performed by volunteers (us!) alreadyACM has (1-2) mainly by virtue of the aforementioned blackmail, but (3-4) are a mess and these aspects are getting much much worse year by year rather than better (as the transition to OA brings much higher costs for scientists and funding bodies, costs that are nonexistent outside the “(non)”profit corporate funding model). At what time do we finally say, “See ya!”?
(DIR) Post #AbTHkjnFAQRk0jYphA by JonathanAldrich@social.sigsoft.org
2023-11-04T12:59:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jonmsterling @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM Costs exist even if you are going to publish with arXiv. There is a legitimate question about how much publishing services we want--ACM provides more than arXiv, and also returns some to the SIGs which contributes to publication costs born by conferences (e.g. paying for HotCRP).But I think it's important that ACM has budgeted so it will not profit from the transition to OA; if net costs to the community increase, it will not be because of ACM.
(DIR) Post #AbTHkknzP8dZ9KuwUq by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:11:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM I agree the costs of providing what ACM provides are higher than running arxiv. But i think you will find, if you survey, that most scientists would not agree that costly services beyond arxiv are worth having. (it’s reasonable to debate and disagree on this — but plenty of people publish in systems in which the ONLY cost is that of archival, and science has not come to a halt because of this) HotCRP licenses are obviously expensive but it would cost no more than 100K total to build an open source and easily deployable system that would totally liberate us from HotCRP — and i mean 100K total, not per year.
(DIR) Post #AbTHklfADRAhoFnPNY by JonathanAldrich@social.sigsoft.org
2023-11-04T13:37:14Z
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@jonmsterling @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM HotCRP costs what it does because you can't just build it once. Like any piece of software it must be constantly enhanced if it is to remain useful. You have to host it and support it. All that costs time and real money. And as a PC chair I'm happy to have the conference pay for the valuable service it provides.
(DIR) Post #AbTHkmZsoYXeeAKhmq by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:38:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM It is certainly not true that it has to be constantly enhanced to remain useful. Hosting is very inexpensive (it would probably cost no more than $100/yr to host such a system for a single major conference). Support is indeed a problem, but the scientific community maintains MANY things that are much more sophisticated by traditional volunteer labor — including LaTeX itself and all its packages.
(DIR) Post #AbTHknNVq2Ez85YL8y by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:45:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM Even accounting for bitrot — if it just means we have to rebuild from scratch every 15 years, that would still be a better deal. As always, I find these asides about various important services that we just "must" pay for to be a diversion from the main questions.
(DIR) Post #AbTHkoCCnYn3fJGp9s by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:52:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM Remember also: the main reason software keeps changing over time is not that it is changing to respond to new requirements (imagine a BRIDGE changing to meet new requirements!) but because the stupid JavaScript web framework bit-rotted, or we have to switch from grunt to yarn, or we wrote the first version using MongoDB b/c our moron boss made us and we have to switch to a real database...All these are real factors, but this does not make user-hurting and money-devouring churn somehow an immutable law of software engineering.
(DIR) Post #AbTHkoFkaNcrqIvegS by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:15:17Z
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@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM (If someone wants to pay me such a chunk of cash during a sabbatical, I’ll happily liberate you from HotCRP license costs, etc…)
(DIR) Post #AbTHkowzzaDk0RAC5w by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:58:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM So overall, I think there is room for a new discussion in our community about **GENERATIONAL SOFTWARE**, especially as pertains to civil services, professional organisations. It is long past the time that we, as software engineers, think more carefully about how we can bend our practices to Serve the People.
(DIR) Post #AbTHkpdXRQFS8N4AOu by djoerd@idf.social
2023-11-04T18:35:57Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM Even though this thread is too long already, let me support @jonmsterling by pointing to the https://ACLanthology.org which runs a diamond open access (reader does not pay, author does not pay) digital library of a major professional scientific organization for a fraction of the costs of the ACM DL. Indeed, you may notice that the software is less brittle too. (The software is open source, btw, highly recommended too for the ACM)
(DIR) Post #AbTHkt26oWgWfRaKcC by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:36:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM Btw — regarding being non-profit, etc., I think anyone who has spent any time interacting with the non-profit industrial complex (as I have) will be well aware that formal profit is not the only way for money to get sucked down a black hole... Institutions are built and run by people, and people often have individual 'profit-like' motives for creating these enormous expense-centers, and this does not preclude an institution from not making a profit. Universities are themselves usually non-profits, but nobody can argue that total costs have not gone hugely up while services provided have stayed relatively level (as well as salaries paid to faculty).
(DIR) Post #AbTHkt4EgcO0m2a1vk by jonmsterling@mathstodon.xyz
2023-11-04T13:39:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@JonathanAldrich @andrejbauer @pigworker @ACM You are certainly confusing “remaining useful/adequate” with “remaining competitive in a commercial ecosystem”. Only for the latter is constant enhancement required...