Post AarGmRHECWK6vcEdw8 by spacehobo@teh.entar.net
(DIR) More posts by spacehobo@teh.entar.net
(DIR) Post #AarESFdnYONz8k2Qvw by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T09:58:42Z
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Pretty much exactly 19 years ago I got on a train to Oxford and made Mark Shuttleworth's laptop successfully suspend and resume using ACPI and that was the turning point in my entire career
(DIR) Post #AarEbr8tUdnY3UAAVc by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:00:12Z
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It was August or September 2004 and Ubuntu had been announced earlier that year at Debconf in Brazil but nothing had publicly shipped yet. I got invited to the internal dev summit that was happening in Oxford a couple of months after the announcement. At this point, nobody outside Canonical had really seen what was being developed.
(DIR) Post #AarEmBTwj4um26w1B2 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:01:49Z
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Earlier that year I'd bought a Thinkpad X40 and through sheer bloody mindedness had figured out how to get it to successfully suspend and resume using the new hotness (ACPI) rather than the old and busted APM. APM was, with hindsight, an awful idea, and the Linux community stuck to it for far too long. That's a separate conversation.
(DIR) Post #AarEv32fTVtYSmP01A by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:04:00Z
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I hung out in Oxford for a week and we spent the evenings watching awful things like Antitrust (thanks @Migueldeicaza). But I also managed to bodge many people's laptops into successfully suspending and resuming via ACPI, even if I'm not proud of the solutions invoked at the time
(DIR) Post #AarF3GNrkoI49vEcE4 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:05:32Z
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(Worst case example: the VESA BIOS extensions gave you a mechanism to save graphics hardware state, and by marshalling that through userland we could save it before suspend and restore it after resume and *then* switch to the X server and all of this is awful but it made a bunch of machines work before we had graphics drivers that could do this for us)
(DIR) Post #AarFCnkf3ygcFlRfJA by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:07:04Z
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There was then the digression of the naked people wallpapers, which everyone seemed to agree was a bad idea but nobody was really willing to actually fight Mark about, although I think @jeffwaugh made a far stronger representation than anyone else and deserves recognition for that
(DIR) Post #AarFKevpjrzRDRPxpo by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:08:11Z
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Anyway the Ubuntu 4.10 beta shipped and more laptops suspended and resumed than any other Linux distribution up until that point and Mark tried to hire me and I said that I was going to go and finish my PhD in fruitfly genetics and that was probably actually the right call?
(DIR) Post #AarFY05KP3yQaNDiwy by ghostdancer@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-10-17T10:07:52Z
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@mjg59 It was 2004? Don't know why I thought it was earlier, as a Debian user still remember the "Ubuntu it's an ancient African word that means Can't install Debian" It's almost 20 years but I thought it was before the 2000's
(DIR) Post #AarFkAbJ8DZGftyuTg by ThisCJ@mastodon.nz
2023-10-17T10:09:13Z
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@mjg59 I went to Cape Town in 2003 and was given an Ubuntu CD. Installed it on my work laptop when I got back to NZ
(DIR) Post #AarFsjgeZ8M3oFZB20 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:09:38Z
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But we ended up spending a lot of time just getting laptops into the hands of community members and fixing the bugs that they were hitting and I genuinely believe that this ended up changing the way people thought of Linux on laptops - it *should* work, and if it doesn't then that's up to the distro not the laptop vendor
(DIR) Post #AarG2l38M2KAvnrOmu by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:10:55Z
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I gave a talk on this sort of thing at OSCON in 2007 and a bunch of people in the audience were wearing t-shirts saying "I won't fix your laptop, but Matthew Garrett will" and I have no idea whether any of these still exist
(DIR) Post #AarG2pT9vDWEdg4EuO by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:12:19Z
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Anyway I just wanted to fix my laptop and that's one of the reasons Ubuntu ended up dominating desktop Linux and a lot of history is entirely accidental The End
(DIR) Post #AarG2rGpE2qEE0JPxg by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:15:09Z
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(Epilogue: I ended up resigning from Ubuntu for reasons that were a mixture of just being in a bad place at that time and a specific set of circumstances, and accidentally ended up Cc:ing a public mailing list, and also did so from my jailbroken iPhone while drinking beer at FOSDEM, so welp probably the first person to publicly ragequit Ubuntu with a proprietary user agent string)
(DIR) Post #AarGBUxtWeBFeVZrs0 by benni@social.tr0llhoehle.de
2023-10-17T10:11:34Z
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@mjg59 thank you for sharing this insider story
(DIR) Post #AarGKTrmylFwqs0MBU by jamesh@aus.social
2023-10-17T10:12:07Z
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@mjg59 It was definitely August 2004, based on the dates of my photos.Looking at those photos, it's weird how young everyone is and how bad cheap digital cameras were back then.
(DIR) Post #AarGTpQuAINSLRt4nw by iw@troll.social
2023-10-17T10:12:19Z
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@mjg59 @Migueldeicaza Is bodge your technical term? I think your techno-elite friends are losing their minds in too many rabbit holes. Here's how I resolve suspend resume:sudo systemctl mask sleep.target suspend.target hibernate.target hybrid-sleep.targetThen I either leave on or off. All the 'bodge' solutions are insufficient or ineffective.
(DIR) Post #AarGmRHECWK6vcEdw8 by spacehobo@teh.entar.net
2023-10-17T10:12:32Z
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@mjg59 I am on my last couple weeks; but I remember when I started 17½ years ago, you came by to swap laptops with elmo while he was doing my induction. It was a time when we still tried to get disk hibernation working...
(DIR) Post #AarH3S5gQcx2NJwoue by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:16:22Z
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@ThisCJ First CD would have been 2004, work before then was infra
(DIR) Post #AarHBeZhtcoPPXtyEq by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:17:06Z
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@jamesh Also how we assumed that hotels wouldn't just let someone steal laptops
(DIR) Post #AarHKlJGE4Myu9YJXs by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T10:17:50Z
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@spacehobo Oh good lord were you even in Millbank by then?
(DIR) Post #AarHUlCdThSnT9DmIS by spacehobo@teh.entar.net
2023-10-17T10:32:01Z
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@mjg59 No, that was still Mossop St.
(DIR) Post #AarHqQN1c4lFEHPXRg by jamesh@aus.social
2023-10-17T10:36:17Z
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@mjg59 To be fair, they only let the employee steal the Apple laptops from the room.
(DIR) Post #AarI4zNcFGmRrbdGEa by floriann@infosec.exchange
2023-10-17T10:37:02Z
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@mjg59 ,,the new hotness (ACPI)" 🥹 this recalls memories ❤️
(DIR) Post #AarIIQ8s3UwKd68kOu by anymouse_404@glitch.social
2023-10-17T10:38:50Z
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@mjg59 Actually can you help me with my problem with fruit flies in my apartment?
(DIR) Post #AarIe7G8wQvsR8t2y8 by dtwx@mastodon.social
2023-10-17T10:40:33Z
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@mjg59 hahaha. The struggle was real.
(DIR) Post #AarInBV8XWrACODxMe by ThisCJ@mastodon.nz
2023-10-17T10:41:01Z
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@mjg59 you’re right of course, I just checked my email archive and it was Dec 04. Calvin from the domain name registry gave it me
(DIR) Post #AarJ26pKCXck2rmdkm by ross@hachyderm.io
2023-10-17T10:46:22Z
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@mjg59 Jesus was that 19 years ago. I crashed the summit for a day, interesting times indeed
(DIR) Post #AarJLFiHO0Hb6kcH4K by ben@bluetoot.hardill.me.uk
2023-10-17T10:52:28Z
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@mjg59 though I do like that Lenovo used to swap out things like wifi cards to more Linux friendly versions of specific models for a while.
(DIR) Post #AarJvKUp53hmMoWcAS by DanielEriksson@mstdn.science
2023-10-17T10:59:10Z
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@mjg59 what a boss move. Anyway, yay for molecular biology and Linux!
(DIR) Post #AarKs2ZHNe5tqibZTM by m@martinh.net
2023-10-17T11:09:50Z
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@mjg59 Somewhat alarming to think that 19 years on, ACPI is still a mysterious spooky haunted forest festooned with bear traps, tar pits and other traps for the unwary... <watches flood of ACPI errors scrolling by as 6.5.x kernel boots on 2023 model laptop from Well Known Tech Company>
(DIR) Post #AarL2oFsw3Uie0fVz6 by isaaccp@kolektiva.social
2023-10-17T11:10:39Z
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@mjg59 I remember going to the Ubuntu dev conf that took place in Barcelona (Mataró) in December 2004.After that I decided I'd stick with Debian (don't remember the exact reasons, I guess I just liked the vibes more).
(DIR) Post #AarLBewiupNCNYvSq0 by cr1901@mastodon.social
2023-10-17T11:10:56Z
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@mjg59 Where can I learn more about how this old VESA BIOS marshalling awfulness worked?
(DIR) Post #AarLQfB4KzRDRMn3JY by rom@social.lol
2023-10-17T11:16:46Z
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@mjg59 @cwebber thanks for that! :)
(DIR) Post #AarRt05cmOHq8E8gLY by chaslinux@techhub.social
2023-10-17T12:28:34Z
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@mjg59 @Migueldeicaza best moment of the movie was a quick shot of a GNOME desktop.
(DIR) Post #Aarh5MLjLIsPxN1X0q by SkipHuffman@astrodon.social
2023-10-17T15:18:27Z
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@mjg59 fruitflies have longer lifespans than most laptops.
(DIR) Post #AasAbkKqb4NSHhPFAH by brauner@mastodon.social
2023-10-17T20:49:53Z
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@mjg59 is that resignation still public? In light of how canonical changed over the years it'd be interesting to compare whether the problems aren't in a way still the same.
(DIR) Post #AasBTCMB90YyXVW6L2 by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T20:58:09Z
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@brauner oh I was never employed
(DIR) Post #AasCjUFcTvTicnmP1E by chaslinux@techhub.social
2023-10-17T21:13:35Z
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@mjg59 we were rolling our own Debian-based distribution for our computer refurbishing project from about 2001 to 2006. We switched to Ubuntu in 2006 because it was lightweight enough to run on the machines were building, and, most importantly, it made installing proprietary drivers easy (less work). When Canonical decided to switch to Unity, we switched to Xubuntu. (Unity wouldn't run on a lot of the laptops we were refurbishing in 2010). Still using Xubuntu today at our project.
(DIR) Post #AasG1yAKIYI2TioBuq by Ailuridae@hachyderm.io
2023-10-17T21:51:00Z
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@mjg59 Isn't ACPI also an awful idea? That's the impression I have gotten anyway...
(DIR) Post #AasGIjLEfPN7QQu4fY by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T21:54:06Z
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@Ailuridae conceptually ACPI is about giving the OS the information and mechanisms it needs to configure and power manage the hardware, which is a solid plan. Whether any given implementation is actually good is a separate question.
(DIR) Post #AasHhRVkCI6RJpANQO by Ailuridae@hachyderm.io
2023-10-17T22:09:03Z
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@mjg59 Ahh, gottcha
(DIR) Post #AasJaVRnMbWLPN8hvs by seanfurey@mas.to
2023-10-17T22:30:17Z
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@mjg59 I remember you having a large pile of laptops, but I don't think I knew how it all began.
(DIR) Post #AasPyxeQkmdLYW5sBc by pieq@floss.social
2023-10-17T23:42:18Z
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@mjg59 Do you think "it should work, and if it doesn't then that's up to the distro not the laptop vendor" still holds true?Even though Linux is now much more widely adopted on personal computers, oftentimes ODMs don't care that much and only focus on firmwares and drivers for Windows (or with undocumented tricks only made to work a bit better on Windows). When we spot problems (such as ACPI errors actually), they always shrug and claim that it works on Windows and that's the end of the story…
(DIR) Post #AasRAWDWg6B9traHya by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-17T23:55:23Z
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@pieq my position has always been that if Linux doesn't do ACPI in the same way Windows does, it's a Linux issue. There's no realistic way for vendors to support two operating systems that behave differently.
(DIR) Post #AasUu2wW9R40I51twG by pieq@floss.social
2023-10-18T00:37:23Z
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@mjg59 so, follow the "Windows de facto standard" rather than the ACPI standard? And reverse engineer whatever doesn't work?
(DIR) Post #AasY1GTgWiJ49rg2Eq by mjg59@nondeterministic.computer
2023-10-18T01:12:06Z
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@pieq many of the cases of divergence weren't explicitly addressed by the spec (eg, behaviour of concurrent access under certain circumstances caused deadlocks on some systems) so yeah figuring out what Windows did was the best plan
(DIR) Post #AasoVG9ht66d73enE8 by gabriel@mastodon.samfira.com
2023-10-18T04:18:41Z
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@chaslinux @mjg59 I switched to ubuntu for similar reasons. It was light weight enough to make it feel like I got a RAM upgrade compared to what I was using in 2005. Also, I loved the physical CDs they sent out free of charge back then.Almost 20 years later (hold me, my knees are failing) I'm still using it.
(DIR) Post #AatDdu5Po85q7ursye by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-10-18T09:00:19Z
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@chaslinux > When Canonical decided to switch to Unity, we switched to Xubuntu. (Unity wouldn't run on a lot of the laptops we were refurbishing in 2010). Still using Xubuntu today at our projectHave you had a play with @trisquel? It's a deblobbed Ubuntu with a very lightweight but still human-friendly Mate desktop. It became my go-to when the Amazon Lens debacle make it untenable for me to keep using or endorsing Ubuntu.@mjg59
(DIR) Post #Aatv9NCntBrpRbZn8q by vorlon@mastodon.social
2023-10-18T17:05:05Z
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@mjg59 hahahaha mine still does
(DIR) Post #AatxFLIQ6KHZAUB3cu by jerry1970@venera.social
2023-10-18T06:43:36Z
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@chaslinuxI started using Xubuntu on an old laptop many years ago. Really got to love it so four laptops later, all new, I still use Xubuntu.@mjg59
(DIR) Post #AavbifBlPV0gaQYm6y by joeyh@hachyderm.io
2023-10-19T12:37:30Z
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@mjg59 I'll bet a lot of people at that meeting had new laptops needing fixes because everyone's laptop (except for mine) was stolen at Ubuntu's previous Oxford meeting in August(I heard from Mark on the icebreaker in February that same year. Also never worked for ubuntu but I was on the no-name-yet list so.)