Post AamZQaOBQPG83AtHPc by kirt@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by kirt@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AafG9LeZrXk0mOsSFU by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-10T10:14:39Z
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"Melanie disputes the common narrative that Israel was compensation for the Holocaust. She emphasizes the historical connection of #Jews to the land, long predating the #Holocaust. The misconception stems from various geopolitical factors, including Britain's colonial actions and biased media representation. Melanie experienced backlash in Britain for defending #Israel and realized that perceptions were deeply influenced by misinformation and a blurred line between truth and opinion. "https://yewtu.be/watch?v=OjOgKHw6HY4
(DIR) Post #AafG9MXAaZPTViQ3LE by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-10T10:16:06Z
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🌍 The common narrative suggests that as compensation for the Holocaust, Jews were given a piece of land in the Middle East which led to conflict.📚 This narrative, according to Melanie, is inaccurate. The #Jews had a connection to the land of Israel long before the #Holocaust.🕍 The land of #Israel was the Jews' National Kingdom centuries before Islam was invented.
(DIR) Post #AafG9NZgih1CjobZuC by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-10T10:17:14Z
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This I can vouch for, I know plenty of Jews that were living here before or during WWII, and before the modern state or the modern Zionist movement.
(DIR) Post #AafGDXhkzwlvJYMfIm by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2023-10-11T15:23:18Z
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@yisraeldov This is a vital point that most people forget: Israel is the homeland of the Jews, and Palestinians came in later.Perhaps Israel would have been better under Roman rule, or maybe not, but the diaspora began in that time and modern Israel ends it.Support for it after WW2 was an attempt to avoid future Holocausts.
(DIR) Post #AafIbIQpdNXUnvu0Ho by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T15:43:11Z
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@luwa @amerika @useless_idiot @bp You know what, I don't think they care either. They just want every Jew dead. But regardless, the claim they make in the public eye is that they jews only came to live here after WWII and have no right to live here.
(DIR) Post #AafIbJIMQMMDTwwkim by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2023-10-11T15:49:59Z
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@yisraeldov @luwa @useless_idiot @bp Yes, they do claim that, don't they?I have faced this for years in my arguments as an ethno-nationalist for a Jewish historical homeland.I also like to point out that in an area that is mostly starving, Israel is thriving.We all have an interest in human prosperity.
(DIR) Post #AafIgcFvM8tVjfKx6G by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2023-10-11T15:50:58Z
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@yisraeldov @luwa @useless_idiot @bp In my experience, writing on the Right, anti-Semites take two forms:1. Christians who deny the Jewish roots of their faith.2. People confusing symbolism of antimaterialism with the materialistic notion that it is embodied by a particular group.In any case, as Herzl pointed out, Jews are doomed outside Israel: as a highly nepotistic group that is good at business, they will always be blamed.
(DIR) Post #AafIkfDSIB3k4h71bE by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2023-10-11T15:51:41Z
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@yisraeldov @luwa @useless_idiot @bp I view ethnic nepotism as a sane and realistic practice, but people from the majority group will always demand greater loyalty to the majority.This is unrealistic but popular, and will lead to Dreyfuss Affair style events whenever something goes wrong.Herds always blame the outsider.
(DIR) Post #AafNZeMFdrSLzynIOG by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T16:45:20Z
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@amerika @useless_idiot Eh don't care much for Hertzl. Muslims don't deny the Jewish roots of their religion, but the religion is very anti-Jewish. X-tianity is also, at its core, an anti-jewish religion. They rejected Judaisms teachings, and to be fair, we determined their prophet to be a false prophet. Even before he claimed to be a prophet, he wasn't liked very much. The treatment of Jews goes against all worldly rational thinking.
(DIR) Post #AafOF76BglFZ0g3GnQ by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T16:53:01Z
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@amerika @luwa @useless_idiot @bp IDK what "ethno-nationalist for a Jewish historical homeland" means. I try to be a simple Jew, Chazal said: "A person should always reside in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city that is mostly populated by gentiles, and he should not reside outside of Eretz Yisrael, even in a city that is mostly populated by Jews." I was zoche to do this.
(DIR) Post #AafQZvr4t5KQ7z2ULI by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T14:27:21Z
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@yisraeldov your toot is not publicly visible …Why Eastern Jews in quotes btw?
(DIR) Post #AafQZwao93uMPoR0ca by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T14:35:42Z
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@oatmeal I will fix it. "Eastern Jews" is in quotes because most of the world takes "Eastern Jews" to mean, Jews that lived in the east, Like in Arab countries. Most European countries are to the West of the Land of Israel.
(DIR) Post #AafQZxMJIRuCn8ewfA by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T14:45:12Z
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@yisraeldov most of the world? Oestjuden is how German Jews, and Europeans, called Eastern European, Yiddish speaking, Jews for centuries. The terminology was flipped in modern Israel when Eastern Jews needed to finish de-orientalizing themselves. As you know, Ashkenazi Jews refused to marry Eastern Jews for many years to come, and if you read Arthur Ruppin’s intro to Jewish eugenics, you’ll get the gist of inter-Jewish orientalism. Arab Jews maybe a better name for for the Jews who lived in North Africa which is in the west, If you must keep your Eurocentric references.
(DIR) Post #AafQZy8sNsknDlNjMW by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T15:39:24Z
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@oatmeal I don't need to keep any Eurocentric references. I'm happy to use the ancient hebrew terminology if you want. Yiddish speaking Jews for centuries, called themselves Ashkanazim. You seem to have your facts mixed up. Also I don't need to read anything from anyone named "Arthur" to understand my own community.
(DIR) Post #AafQZyzLEoilqTvd8i by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T16:47:00Z
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@yisraeldov You don't know who's Arthur #Ruppin I understand. I wonder why the Israeli education system hides the most famous Zionist Ashkenazi eugenicist... #Jews who speak #Yiddish are Eastern Jews. It has nothing to do with what you believe. The two cultures were completely separated for centuries, and the only "Ashkenazi" part is the style of reading the Torah. In Israel, Polish, Russian and other Eastern Jews started referring to themselves as Ashkenazim. You know very well that in Israel even today, Russian immigrants are not considered Ashkenazi.Anyway, I guess de-Orientalization is still an ongoing process.. Highly recommended read if you want to know why you're so offended being called an Eastern Jew.How the Polish Peddler Became a German Intellectualhttps://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9780804779579-007/html
(DIR) Post #AafQZzmGIvqwICohOK by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:06:35Z
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@oatmeal Dude, you are assuming that I'm offended when I'm not. You are also stating things that are just completely not true. I have never once met someone that would not consider a Jewish Russian Immigrant Askanazi.
(DIR) Post #AafQa0eV3HEp0QC0vo by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:07:05Z
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@oatmeal The term "Ashkenaz" has its roots in the Bible, specifically in the book of Genesis (10:3), where Ashkenaz is mentioned as a descendant of Japheth, one of Noah's sons. However, in the context of Jewish law (Halakha) and responsa (Poskim), the term "Ashkenaz" is generally used to refer to the customs, practices, and traditions of Jews who originated from Central and Eastern Europe.The first significant references to Ashkenazi customs in Jewish legal literature can be traced back to the medieval period. Rabbis like Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, 1040–1105) in France and the Tosafists, his descendants and students, began to codify customs and laws that were specific to the Ashkenazi community. These were later incorporated into major works of Jewish law, such as the Tur (Arba'ah Turim) and the Shulchan Aruch, where distinctions are often made between Ashkenazi and Sephardi practices.
(DIR) Post #AafQa1WNowL7hXP2v2 by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T17:08:42Z
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@yisraeldov we’re talking about the modern technology. Poland is not in Ashkenaz.
(DIR) Post #AafQa2JIt3TI9GI7Ae by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:12:13Z
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@oatmeal The Chayei Adam (Rabbi Avraham Danzig, 1748–1820, Lithuania) occasionally uses the term to specify customs unique to the Eastern European Jewish community.The Mishnah Berurah (Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan, also known as the Chofetz Chaim, 1839–1933, Poland) sometimes refers to "Minhag Ashkenaz" (the Eastern European custom) when explaining the law.Rabbi Moshe Feinstein (1895–1986, Russia/USA), one of the leading legal authorities of the 20th century, also uses the term "Ashkenaz" in his responsa Igrot Moshe to clarify certain points of law as they pertain to the Eastern European Jewish community.The Aruch HaShulchan (Rabbi Yechiel Michel Epstein, 1829–1908, Belarus) is another Eastern European legal authority who occasionally uses the term "Ashkenaz" to specify customs or laws that are particularly relevant to the Eastern European Jewish community.@bp can you think of any other?
(DIR) Post #AafQlyd4OoygCrELia by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:21:14Z
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@oatmeal Ok, somehow you have got things twisted. I have never once met any Jew in my entire life that would not call a Jew from Poland Ashkenazi. And I've met a lot of Jews in my life :)
(DIR) Post #AafQv5OOcfx9mxi6mu by OeconomicusRatio@mastodon.social
2023-10-11T17:07:48Z
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@oatmeal @yisraeldov I respectfully disagree with your claim “all Yiddish speaking people are eastern Jews”. My Yiddish is a bit rusty, most of the Yiddish-speakers in my family are deceased already … non of us were / are “eastern Jews”.
(DIR) Post #AafQv6JTCTbgdyPgkS by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:22:56Z
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@OeconomicusRatioYou are a bit confused.He, @oatmeal, is (strangely) referring to Jews with European backgrounds as "Eastern Jews" . Honestly, he is saying such strange other things that I thought he was a troll.
(DIR) Post #AafQv7InWSfBiB6fL6 by OeconomicusRatio@mastodon.social
2023-10-11T17:13:07Z
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@oatmeal @yisraeldov According to the Halacha most of “us” aren’t considered being Jewish after all.
(DIR) Post #AafRCLqOi27vjf2ZzE by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:25:58Z
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@OeconomicusRatio Why not?
(DIR) Post #AafReqDrMADk3pbFjs by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T17:17:38Z
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@yisraeldov hmm… funny because I remember it being extensively discussed … here is a completely random google; to show it was of interest. It also indicates Ashkenazi in respect the style of reciting the Torah, not origins. Yiddish speakers are not Ashkenazi, they’re eastern Jews hence “Ostjuden”, East + Jews as was coined by German and Central European Jews (Ashkenazi). If you study the early days of Zionist movement you will see that this distinction was very central to Hertzl’s (Sephardi/Ashkenazi himself) project of rescuing eastern Jews, which by the way, he initially suggested should convert to Christianity, since he didn’t consider them Jewish.https://he.quora.com/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9D-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%91%D7%99-%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99
(DIR) Post #AafS3IXni0x6qgaaIK by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:35:38Z
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@oatmeal Who cares about Hertzel, he doesn't represent Jews or Judaism. You think that Jews and Judaisim started with the Modern Zionist movement. Also in Yiddish you wouldn't say "Juden", you would say "Yiddin". I think your google might be broken.
(DIR) Post #AafSCpyqlMkd9in20W by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T17:23:25Z
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@yisraeldov well maybe you didn’t pay attention… again, referring you to the article mentioned. https://academic.oup.com/stanford-scholarship-online/book/29577/chapter-abstract/248945412?redirectedFrom=fulltext
(DIR) Post #AafSNAI86ORx2qjSue by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:39:18Z
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@oatmeal This is complete foolishness and not based at all on reality. Read more .
(DIR) Post #AafSgOJmAy2438fbyC by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T17:26:52Z
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@OeconomicusRatio @yisraeldov that’s a different story … if you care about this definitions in the first place 🙄
(DIR) Post #AafSgP9t3DiSel3EC8 by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:42:49Z
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@oatmeal @OeconomicusRatio It is foolish, and misguided. Your whole view is based on one paper. You are putting that against a combined #Jewish experience of #Jews for hundreds of years.
(DIR) Post #AafSkY3jtqVHQ79RnE by OeconomicusRatio@mastodon.social
2023-10-11T17:30:13Z
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@yisraeldov Because some of us have a Jewish father but their mother is a “Goie”.
(DIR) Post #AafSmu0FHiSY3YdicK by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T17:30:23Z
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@yisraeldov I didn’t come up with the terminology Ostjuden. I swear to god. I’m just not so deeply offended by it, or confused; like you seem to be.
(DIR) Post #AafSyQw3BQwbNbAxqS by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:45:57Z
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@oatmeal I'm not offended at all. It is just completely foolish, though. It's like if you told me my heart was a big strawberry, that is why my blood is red. It is just so wrong that it is funny.
(DIR) Post #AafT2kzsXJFOl51o1I by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:46:51Z
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@OeconomicusRatio I wouldn't say that is most, or even "us".
(DIR) Post #AafTUCJX52fnIcJ1JQ by OeconomicusRatio@mastodon.social
2023-10-11T17:37:09Z
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@yisraeldov His statement was “Jews speaking Yiddish are Eastern Jews”. Where do you see a “confusion” in my objection, please?
(DIR) Post #AafTUD8E2ZDrpq1VKK by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:51:37Z
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@OeconomicusRatio You are not confused, **he** is confused.
(DIR) Post #AafTu0VZb2zqDIFEDQ by OeconomicusRatio@mastodon.social
2023-10-11T17:44:13Z
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@yisraeldov @oatmeal He might, I do not.
(DIR) Post #AafTyArp1a5nV0ddiK by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T17:57:10Z
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@OeconomicusRatio Sorry was refering to him not you.
(DIR) Post #AafUKQ0LQNHsomEPx2 by OeconomicusRatio@mastodon.social
2023-10-11T17:49:38Z
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@yisraeldov So, good sir, what *would you* say then?
(DIR) Post #AafUUiMO2A0WdtS1su by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T17:51:12Z
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@yisraeldov Herzl not Hertzel … I’ll ignore the rest, since it’s not very informed. Maybe research a little bit more all the stuff that seem to shock you. 10x for a lovely discussion.
(DIR) Post #AafV9mVzUUTjOxWeKO by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T18:10:18Z
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@oatmeal In Hebrew it is pronounced Hertzel , the צ is a tz sound. Sorry, but I'm not going to research obvious foolishness. But, all the best.
(DIR) Post #AafWyv9XEdhqujyGki by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-11T18:20:19Z
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@yisraeldov I was sure you’d figure out by now I’m Israeli, but you don’t seem to be very perceptive in general. Anyways thanks for the heads up. Also, don’t want to scare you, but the tz sound of צ doesn’t exit in Hebrew. It’s the way German Jews (Ashkenazim, but not eastern Jews) pronounced. in Hebrew It’s pronounced like the Arabic ص. Better to research first and post later.
(DIR) Post #AafXA7AatcurMznukq by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-11T18:32:51Z
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@oatmeal Ok, now you are just trolling. So you are telling me that all the Temnanim also get it wrong?
(DIR) Post #AafbCCdPwrluiNXMoa by bp@social.bennypowers.dev
2023-10-11T19:12:05Z
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@yisraeldov this oatmeal guy is a nut job don't engage
(DIR) Post #AagSvHQCIEvUA8jVqK by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-12T05:20:18Z
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@bp I can't figure out if it is that, or if he is just a troll. Sadly, there probably are some "Israelis" that believe this foolishness.
(DIR) Post #AagUBijUcOs1SEA5ZY by bp@social.bennypowers.dev
2023-10-12T05:34:28Z
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@yisraeldov Dovaleh, don't give these people room in your head
(DIR) Post #Aagqlxutq8wrxmBXnM by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-12T09:47:28Z
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@yisraeldov yes well, like I said, you need to do your homework ... for the sake of competence, this is everything you need to know about the Hebrew letter צ... Hebrew is closer to Arabic than to German, you'd be surprised to know, I guess...Israelis seem to be ignorant of their own language as they are of the history of Palestine, on which lands they live. What you are referring, mistakenly, to is a lost consonant in Hebrew:בעל החיים החינני צְבִי נקרא בארמית טְבי או טַבְיָא. הדמיון בין השמות אינו מקרי. ואכן כשמשווים לערבית מגלים שהמילה המקבילה ל'צבי' היא ظَبْي, טַׄבִּי.[6] לעיצור ظ אין עיצור נפרד מקביל בעברית ובארמית: הצליל הזה, שנשמע בין ט ל־ז, אינו קיים בלשונות אלו.https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2022/12/19/גלגוליה-של-צדי/
(DIR) Post #Aah8NTlE6duwf28ODw by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-12T13:04:32Z
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@oatmeal 🙄
(DIR) Post #AamZQaOBQPG83AtHPc by kirt@mastodon.social
2023-10-15T04:01:27Z
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@yisraeldov @bp why is Israeli in quotes? I'd normally interpret that to mean citizen of Israel… but what are you implying?
(DIR) Post #AamupnTVgZFLQGWFcG by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-15T08:01:20Z
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@kirt @bp Everything he says is just nonsense, and no basis in reality. "Israeli" is in quotes, because the word has multiple meanings. "Israel" had meaning way before the modern state, and has meaning without it. I am specifically sensitive to this because it happens to be my name, and I don't want foolishness like this associated with me.
(DIR) Post #AamvK4VWvJ8uw4trrE by kirt@mastodon.social
2023-10-14T11:59:40Z
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@oatmeal @yisraeldov @Kirt@lingo.lol there must be some connection to Germany? Yiddish seem to be pretty much German / Dutch in Hebrew script.
(DIR) Post #AamvK5QbV6nRn5bRom by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-15T08:06:45Z
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@kirt@mastodon.social @Kirt@lingo.lol Depends on what version of Yiddish. The Yiddish that secularists teach, and almost nobody speaks is probably going to be the closest to german. Yiddish takes on words of the host nation, the Yiddish I speak has lot of the vocabulary from Russian.
(DIR) Post #AamvQastSZsh5WwEMa by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-14T12:01:08Z
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@kirt@mastodon.social @yisraeldov @Kirt@lingo.lol both are based on old German … Yiddish is mixed with Hebrew. I speak some Dutch and can understand some Yiddish.
(DIR) Post #AamvQbxBU6uKP7xAgq by kirt@mastodon.social
2023-10-14T13:14:31Z
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@oatmeal @yisraeldov @Kirt@lingo.lol so why do you seem to be claiming that Central European Jews came from elsewhere?
(DIR) Post #AamvQcqq9BQXBjzcRM by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-14T13:42:20Z
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@kirt@mastodon.social @yisraeldov @Kirt@lingo.lol I’m not “claiming” anything simply stating facts. The spread of Jews from Ashkenaz created two very distinct and completely separate communities. Without going into population growth questions and genetics (the question of Slavic Jews are ethnic Jews for example) , Hertzl suggested initially, following increasingly violent pogroms in the south of Russia (Ukraine) they should convert to Christianity and get it done with. Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews (hertzl was Sephardi on his father’s side) didn’t perceive Eastern Jews as “real” Jews. The discussion here was about the use of the term Ashkenazi. In recent history it applied to German Jews, to denote a community, and not to Eastern Jews. Today the “style of praying” of eastern Jews is used to justify the collective Ashkenazi, not the historical group.
(DIR) Post #AamvQde7ByqHeZ2yFE by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-15T08:07:58Z
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@oatmeal @kirt@mastodon.social @Kirt@lingo.lol Again, this is not and never was reality.
(DIR) Post #Aan0cP2JpsY9aWnU5Q by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-15T09:06:08Z
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@yisraeldov @kirt@mastodon.social @Kirt@lingo.lol https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/argentina-jewish-white-slaveryhttps://maviboncuk.blogspot.com/2021/07/brothels-in-istanbul-short-history.htmlhttps://www.jstor.org/stable/26857583To name a few... the Vienna sewage system for example was tortiously known as an underworld of Eastern Jews migrants, which spooked Ashkenazi Jews as they saw antisemitism rising in Vienna especially. Vienna’s Jewish Geography: The Leopoldstadt in Interwar Literature https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199794843.003.0003To name a few.And please, if you want to have a discussion, less emotion and more references. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong. That's typical Israeli attitude, unfortunately.
(DIR) Post #Aan40PwWPtlNDDEDJo by yisraeldov@linuxrocks.online
2023-10-15T09:43:56Z
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@oatmeal @kirt@mastodon.social @Kirt@lingo.lol Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time debunking clearly nonsense articles. I don't have the time for that. You will have to be satisfied with me pointing out that you are being fooled, and do your own research. Maybe actually visit a Jewish community.
(DIR) Post #Aan48paawqO34Mz4c4 by oatmeal@kolektiva.social
2023-10-15T09:45:31Z
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@yisraeldov tragic