Post AakueQmrdAwb2txSrY by niclas@angrytoday.com
(DIR) More posts by niclas@angrytoday.com
(DIR) Post #Aaja93ZThkTRpBV0cq by Miriamm@mastodon.social
2023-10-13T16:40:12Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
This is a war of propaganda. Brush up on your media literacy skills. Trace sources. Make sure what you’re spreading isn’t false. If you can’t verify it don’t post it. Please.
(DIR) Post #AajvrTEvjFCjDHuKFU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-13T21:28:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Miriamm I assure you as someone who can personally confirm it, most of what we heard is more or less true. Yes there is bias, media spin, and as always not the whole truth... but more or less the jist of hamas murdering civilians is entierly valid.
(DIR) Post #AakcBEFDO3skZY91rk by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T05:22:56Z
0 likes, 3 repeats
@freemo @Miriamm I think we can safely say that the following is true: Both sides commit atrocities.Hamas killed soldiers, but they also deliberately targeted and murdered civilians.Israel say they target terrorists and say the dead civilians are unfortunate collateral damage. To a dead civilian I don't think that distinction matters much.However, if the attack came as a surprise, can we really trust the Israeli armed forces when they say they know where the military targets are?
(DIR) Post #AakiRejhG7Mr5pcPnU by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T06:33:07.453919Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn @freemo @Miriamm I generally agree, but is attacking terrorists while they are hiding behind human shields an atrocity?
(DIR) Post #AakjkndGVUYU8mIoka by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T06:47:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @freemo I suppose it depends who you ask. I suggest you ask the so-called human shields. Then there are the more obvious things like destroying the power and water supply, bombing hospitals, denying delivery of medicines etc.
(DIR) Post #AakkH7dvdvpNTA1e0e by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T06:53:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn Both sides are projecting, sure. But only one side has a charter that says "extinction of the other side"... Their sole purpose and reason to exist are to kill everyone in Israel.And somehow the Gaza people voted for that, sure a long time ago, but if you don't object to your leaders, then you are also partially responsible for what they do.This Israeli is challenging everyone prove him wrong. Please, go at it; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNf40sBcvKk@freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #Aakkkvy1cNx5wddmts by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T06:59:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas > But only one side has a charter that says "extinction of the other side"I assume you mean Israel?> Their sole purpose and reason to exist are to kill everyone in Israel.Oops nevermind.. Neither side wants the other to be killed off (except for a few really angry people). They do however want their land, The Israelis want the land they have had for.. about one generation. The Palestinians want the lang they have had for hundreds of generations.It is no suprise (though no mirally justified) that the side that was there the longest, and have no had their home occupied for nearly a century, is becoming increasingly radicalized. Thats the consequence when you treat people as subhuman for long enough.@kjetil_kilhavn @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AakkutjAndHDtXReYC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T07:00:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins How could they not hide behind human shields.. They live in very tightly packed ghettos... there are no isolated military bunkers... Literally there is no place for them to be except in civlian locations.@Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #AaklICLjjI7iJIaq8W by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T07:05:01.550783Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn I don’t know enough details to agree, but that’s not a point that I’m arguing.
(DIR) Post #AaklLu2XkJQsgNNl9U by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T07:05:42Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo From Wikipedia;<quote>The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.</quote>The Arabs have consistently rejected the two State solution that has been proposed since 1897 or so.The Israeli haven't.End of moral high grounds.@kjetil_kilhavn @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AaklW1p7f5qNibvuQC by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T07:07:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo And I kindly ask you to challenge the Isaeli guy in the video... He has a couple of very easy ones to prove wrong, if one listens to pro-Palestinian sources.FTR; I am on neither side.@kjetil_kilhavn @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AaklbZHggPUuwWw448 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T07:08:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas > The Arabs have consistently rejected the two State solution that has been proposed since 1897 or so.> The Israeli haven't.> > End of moral high grounds.It is their country, they were there and were invaded.. they are under no moral obligation to accept a 2 state solution. Jews were allowed freely in the palestinian state, there was a working one-state solution. Then the Jews wanted to steal the state fromt eh palestinians and think they have the moral high ground? They lost the moral high ground the second they invaded and started taking land.@kjetil_kilhavn @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AaklhrDauxxGIm1Ipc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T07:09:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas if the guy is in this thread ill be happy to talk to him... Otherwise i have little interest in a video. If you want to make a point from that video however I'm all ears.@kjetil_kilhavn @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AaklmJDok87yJOFNUu by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T07:10:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid I see what you say. Yes, the people in Gaza voted for Hamas. Last time I read up on democracy that means you are free to vote, and no matter what you vote it can't be used as justification to kill you. I see you have a different view of what democracy means.I saw the first couple of minutes of the video and could already have pointed out that there were no Israelis either at the time he claims there were no Palestinians.
(DIR) Post #AaklvE6V8nrH2q4qMy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T07:12:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn Before Israel was formed and the invasion started there were 10 times more arabs than jews in the region. @niclas @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AakmiheE5OC0raRaF6 by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T07:21:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid You are on neither side? 🤣🤣You could have fooled me....Why don't you challenge the video guy yourself if you're so obsessed with him?
(DIR) Post #AaknRtcgPRrF2DGuqu by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T07:29:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid You're wrong here. Even Hamas have been willing to accept a two state solution. Israel say in public they are for a two state solution, but their actions speak loudly. They build new settlements in occupied territory and dispel the people who lived there. United Nations has condemned this, just like they condemn terrorist attacks.
(DIR) Post #AakpB8q2mkGTD5eyI4 by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T07:48:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn "fooled you"; Sorry, that you are easily fooled, apparently not only by me."10 times more arabs"; Now you are entering the question of "where in history do you make the cut-off line?" Whatever date you pick, you will have massive problems around the world; Turks going back to Central Asia? Europeans and Africans in North and South America shipped back to their continents and demolish all their legacy?@freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AakpN5DM5KbfRgG2Ma by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T07:50:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn "Hamas have been willing to accept a two state solution"; Please enlighten me with a link to where that is stated officially. Thanks."Settlement on West Bank"; I agree, that is nasty play.@freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AakqVoIyQHahYvbwPY by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T08:03:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid Hamas accepts Palestinian state with 1967 borders - Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
(DIR) Post #AakspY6iYT8r1gPzbU by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T08:29:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn Thanks.@freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AakueQmrdAwb2txSrY by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-14T08:49:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kjetil_kilhavn And the other side view of this (the Hamas changes of their stated intentions) is; https://forward.com/opinion/564190/hamas-charter-truth/Basically (paraphrased); "Hamas only changed the intention of destroying the jews to destroying the state of Israel (the Zionist project)."The point in the article of Hamas funding from Qatar getting Netanyahu's support is a very interesting one. Is it simply that all state actors want the keep the FEAR in the people to stay in power?@freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #Aal2jXCG1jJo0QmQlM by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T10:20:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid As the first intifada wound down in 1993, the Oslo peace process started with secret talks between Israel and the PLO. Israel’s then prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, signed an agreement with Arafat aimed at fulfilling the “right of the Palestinian people to self-determination” although Rabin did not accept the principle of a Palestinian state.
(DIR) Post #Aal2nw6LNFneP973wm by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T10:21:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid Among Israelis, the political charge against Oslo was led by future prime ministers Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu, who fronted rallies at which Rabin was portrayed as a Nazi. Rabin’s widow blamed the two men for her husband’s assassination by an ultranationalist Israeli in 1995.Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/why-israel-palestine-conflict-history?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
(DIR) Post #Aal2xV2yoeSXOR6FX6 by kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no
2023-10-14T10:22:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas @freemo @Miriamm @samuraikid Among Israelis, the political charge against Oslo was led by future prime ministers Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu, who fronted rallies at which Rabin was portrayed as a Nazi. Rabin’s widow blamed the two men for her husband’s assassination by an ultranationalist Israeli in 1995.Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/why-israel-palestine-conflict-history?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
(DIR) Post #AaleGkom6JwI6zV3M8 by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T17:20:57Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo @kjetil_kilhavn @niclas @Miriamm @samuraikid Freemo my guy you gotta stop calling it an "invasion".Calling refugee immigration an "invasion" is an dickish thing to do. Please stop. It makes you look like those xenophobes in the US who talk about central american immigrant "invasions".There were waves of immigration from 1900 on, predictably leading to tension and violence against the immigrants. (Britain I think did not do a great job dealing with this in a number of ways!) None of this in the slightest has anything to do with whether Israel is justified in the way they are prosecuting this war against Hamas baby killing terrorists, of course, which is another reason to stop saying it.
(DIR) Post #AalegVkOkuLctsjbkm by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T17:25:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech Its not "refugee immigration" if that was the case they would have immigrated to Palestine and integrated, they did not.By collectively, as immigrants, stealing land from someone else, then invading it with missiles and guns and military, is absolutely an invasion.> There were waves of immigration from 1900 on, predictably leading to tension and violence against the immigrants. (Britain I think did not do a great job dealing with this in a number of ways!) Unfortunately illegal immigrants tend to cause a lot of anger and violence.. it isnt right. But that doesnt excuse the genocide that followed.@kjetil_kilhavn @niclas @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AaleoWuAKsTAo67vTk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T17:27:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech And while I agree the hamas commiting attrocities would be a reason to consider stop saying it, the fact the israel has commited similar or even worse attrocities over its reign negates that fact.Neither side is right, both sides are littered with war crimes, both sides have used children intentionally as human shields... no one gets a moral pass.@kjetil_kilhavn @niclas @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #AalgMiRK3X6ONiV6X2 by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T17:44:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @kjetil_kilhavn @niclas @Miriamm @samuraikid "if that was the case they would have immigrated to Palestine and integrated" Why in the world would you think that? I mean, that would have been great, I guess, and it happened to some extent, *of course*. But the groups maintain their identities/religions/etc as they always have; I think to a large extent groups lived in separate towns, etc."illegal immigrants" I don't think it was illegal, generally, was it? Why do you say that?I suggest you don't know what you're talking about here? This seems like the other day when you claimed there was never a nation called "Israel" before 1940s?There have been Jews in the area, continuously, for 1000s of years. There has been tension at least since the refugee immigration waves started 100+ years ago. Nebi Musa riots, and so on. People from both groups have committed completely unjustified violence, of course. The situation we are in today is a direct result of those issues building and building, never being resolved.Again: none of this has anything, at all, whatsoever, to do with whether Israel is justified in the manner in which it is prosecuting this war against Hamas, or other punitive things it does like bulldozing suicide bombers' houses, or whether or not it is being negligent in policing settler violence, or, even whether the Arab invasions and continued rocket attacks justify the sea blockades of Gaza, etc, etc, etc."I agree the Hamas commiting attrocities would be a reason to consider stop saying it" That would of course have nothing to do with whether Israel "invaded".
(DIR) Post #AalgcOiHAOCzpluMu8 by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T17:47:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn Wha? It is absolutely not the case that they have no choice but to have military installations in the same buildings as hospitals/schools/residences. There are "literally" other places they could have them.You seem to be under the impression that Gaza is completely covered, every square inch, in civilian buildings? This is, *of course*, not the case.
(DIR) Post #Aalh8yOc2AjDlkFBhY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T17:53:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech “if that was the case they would have immigrated to Palestine and integrated” Why in the world would you think that? I mean, that would have been great, I guess, and it happened to some extent, of course. But the groups maintain their identities/religions/etc as they always have; I think to a large extent groups lived in separate towns, etc.Because your trying to make the absurd claim they arent invaders, just immigrants… immigrants dont come with bombs and guns to take away your land, thats not immigrants, thats invaders, also called an occupying force.As with any diverse country prior to the invasion there were a great many mixed settlements, and there were some that were primarily jewish or arab.. However the arabs in the area out numbered Jews 10:1, palestine had this makeup for many generations. Despite the overwhelming arab concentration jews were generally welcomed and even allowed to buy land… until they started invading anyway. “illegal immigrants” I don’t think it was illegal, generally, was it? Why do you say that?Depends how you view illegal. Early on they werent illegal, but at this point the overwhelming majority of ISraelis are illegal immigrants according to the people/governance who have the right to control that land (palestinians). I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about here? This seems like the other day when you claimed there was never a nation called “Israel” before 1940s?I misinterprited what experts had said on a reading.. when challenged I reread and changed my opinion… Perhaps you should use that to recognize that I am willing to consider counter evidence and easily change my views when proven wrong.. Would go a much longer way than using it as a weapon against someone simply for making a mistake, and learning from it once. Should be proof that I wont continue to assert a thing if there is evidence to the contrary. Again: none of this has anything, at all, whatsoever, to do with whether Israel is justified in the manner in which it is prosecuting this war against Hamas, or other punitive things it does like bulldozing suicide bombers’ houses, or whether or not it is being negligent in policing settler violence, or, even whether the Arab invasions and continued rocket attacks justify the sea blockades of Gaza, etc, etc, etc.Ummm, who is the invading and occupying force has everything to do with if ISrael or anyone else has a right to continue a war… like a lot to do with it.The fact that botht he Hamas and Isrtael are committing atrocities and war crimes left and right, and have been doing so for 80 years certainly doesnt give anyone a pass for their continuation of such war crimes.@kjetil_kilhavn @niclas @Miriamm @samuraikid
(DIR) Post #Aalhle1ph3M9tW1r7Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:00:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech @realcaseyrollins Wha? It is absolutely not the case that they have no choice but to have military installations in the same buildings as hospitals/schools/residences. There is a huge difference between a military installation and hamas simply being present. As we covered with both sides using human shields I am not claiming there arent instances of them doing just that, using human shields, as Israel has on multiple occasions. What I am saying is in the overwhelming majority of cases they bomb civilian locations simply because hamas are present at all, even when they are not using it for military purposes. > You seem to be under the impression that Gaza is completely covered, every square inch, in civilian buildings? This is, *of course*, not the case.So they all have to stand in an open field where the inevitable result is a few bombs to whipe them out in a matter of a seconds? When people fight for their freedom (and im not saying these guys arent terrorists), it is not unheard of for them to integrate with civilians in an attempt to be covert, when your on the loosing side this particular aspect is to be expected.. its only when they use people as human shields by actively attacking from a location without letting the civilians leave that it becomes an issue (something both sides are guilty of).@Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #Aali660xLu4wTzN3nU by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T18:03:56.113407Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @ech @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn What I am saying is in the overwhelming majority of cases they bomb civilian locations simply because hamas are present at all, even when they are not using it for military purposesNo, you said that #Hamas operates among civilians because there isn’t enough room for them to build military installations, which to my knowledge is just not true.
(DIR) Post #AaliXLk2zEin4wSQ4W by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:08:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins No not what I said, or at least not what I intended to say.They generally integrate with the population for gurilla reasons.. when they "operate" out of a location with civilians its just wrong if they dont let the civilians evacuate (which has happened, israel has done the same).The reason is, yes, because they cant build military installations. That isnt a reason to use civilians as shields, but it is a reaason to hold their operations in civilian meeting spaces.As a reminder this aspect is quite common among gurilla warfare, for the "freedom fighters" to have meetings and gather in secret among civilians. Where it becomes wrong is if they launch attacks and use civilians as shields.Now to the point of why they do this, yes, it goes back to what I said if they walk out to a field and try to build a military building then israel will just bomb it and kill them all off before they even have a chance. They certainly are under no obligation to commit suicide either.@Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #AalidvaEdnIbyf0LQG by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:10:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo They didn’t “come with” weapons – what on earth are you talking about?They organized armed security and military capabilities in response to the violence they experienced and so on. In situ, yes? The immigrants that came were, you know, immigrants. You know this, right? Can you see that the way you’re talking about it makes it sound like all the refugees that came were armed to the teeth and hit the ground shooting or something? Is this some weird definition of “invade” you’re using for rhetorical reasons?Of course, this doesn’t justify anything they did with those security forces once they built them! That’s an entirely separate issue, and more germane to who is justified doing what this week.“at this point the overwhelming majority of ISraelis are illegal immigrants”what are you even talking about“willing to consider counter evidence and easily change my views” – I did think that, yes. That’s why I’m engaging with you here. So they all have to stand in an open field where the inevitable result is a few bombs to whipe them out in a matter of a seconds?No, they should not build their military headquarters and storage in civilian buildings. You know, like any civilized nation would do.
(DIR) Post #Aalj8ii2YYpx1gL27k by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T18:15:37.191640Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn Agreed to a degree (not sure if they cannot literally build military installations or not, but yep #Israel would take it out if they tried).It’s understandable, but not justifiable to sacrifice Palestinian lives for their political cause.
(DIR) Post #AaljHbMpDwGGrReN3Q by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:17:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech They didn’t “come with” weapons – what on earth are you talking about?Of course they came with weapons.. what are YOU on about? On may 1947 they and a group of other nations decided to invade palestine and take the land from palestinians and give it to the Israelis. They came with weapons to take this land for themselves and the first Arab-israeli war began for the palestinians to defend their land and prevent the invasion and annexing of their land. This lasted from 1947 to 1849 They organized armed security and military capabilities in response to the violence they experienced and so on.The violence they expiernce from invading the country and taking it… please stop pretending they are the victims here… they literally were invading Palestine and taking it.. they just decalred one day half the country was theirs and then went in and took it…. funny how you just ignore that part and make it sound like they were just palestinian immigrants… they werent. what are you even talking aboutI am talking about the fact that since Israel is an occupyign and invading force, and it is not and never was their land (it is palestine)… they are illegal immigrants by any measure of that at best, and an occupying force at worst. No, they should not build their military headquarters and storage in civilian buildings. You know, like any civilized nation would do.They are using the exact same tactics in that regard as freedom fighters dduring WWII, and really any nation being occupied and unable to have a proper army.. That is, their military and its equipment are hidden in the underground… Again nothing wrong with that, what is wrong is when they use human shields during an active attack, somethign Israel also does.
(DIR) Post #AaljOkqEOg0SGvobtQ by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:12:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @freemo @kjetil_kilhavn I don't think they have much choice but to go after the terrorists at this point. I think it is incumbent on them to do this with minimal collateral damage, though – I'm ignorant about the best way to do that?
(DIR) Post #AaljOlaJdKryZrNPiy by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T18:18:29.912584Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech @Miriamm @freemo @kjetil_kilhavn I think precise ground offensives without a siege would probably be the best way to do that. Who knows if any Palestinians have been starved to death due to the siege (which, if they have, would be against the #GenevaConventions as I understand it). With ground offensives, they can pinpoint #Hamas members more directly. Problem is they have extensive tunnel systems, so #IDF soldiers could easily get ambushed and captured. I think that’s why they did the siege, to weaken them as much as possible and decrease that advantage.
(DIR) Post #AaljcNHMnXCbFV0CMi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:20:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins Its not about sacraficing lives... its a bit more nuanced than that.When they simply keep their installations underground and in civilian populations this, in and of itself, is perfectly normal and accepted gorilla warfare. Its also in many cases (not all) with the blessing of the civilians I suspect. Jews did this during WWII (hiding stashes of weapons in civilian locations) and generally operated covertly and hiding among civlians... all of this is fine.Where it becomes an issue is when they are actively firing from a location and use children or ciuvilians as shields by not allowing them to leave the zone of fire. This is where it becomes very very wrong... and sadly this is also on par with what israel does where they have been caught using children from palestine as human shields also.@Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #AaljpKay5V0ggpLgu0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:23:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins What do you mean "who knows"... Israel has been quite public about the fact that it walls in palestinians with no resources or room to grow then shuts off their water and electricity for months on end... We know for a **fact** tons of palestinians were killed through these actions and its something they have done continually even during times of peace.During the full 2 years I was there the electricity and warer were intentionally turned off to huge portions. They admit to this publicly, they threaten with this constantly, and do it constantly.@Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #AalmSAYZXpxal1sKqO by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:52:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn "for the "freedom fighters" to have meetings and gather in secret among civilians"If they were freedom fighters who cared about the people they claim to be fighting for I think they'd do things a bit differently.
(DIR) Post #AalmZ66mTvECzMBDE0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:53:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech I am not claiming they are freedom fighters in the sense that they are acting morally.My point is only the part where they integrate with civilians is perfectly normal and not anything that speaks against them... What is is when they actively fire and use people as shields against their will, which is a seperate issue (and again something israel is guilty of too).@realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #AalogShD6FOGyhrIg4 by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T19:17:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo “Of course they came with weapons.. what are YOU on about? On may 1947 they and a group “ – came from where? They were already there. But you know this? I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here.“they are illegal immigrants” Again, what? When Jewish refugees were coming in like 1925 under the British you’re saying that was illegal? Can you give me a source on that? Was it illegal before the British took over?“defend their land and prevent the invasion and annexing of their land.” and “they just decalred one day half the country was theirs and then went in and took it….” No? The British, eager to get out, had to leave something behind when they left, so they partitioned according to where people lived at the time, yes? (or had the UN do it) There’s plenty to say regarding how the partition plan should have been done differently, of course, but I can’t fathom how it is a “literal invasion”.Then, there was a war, of course, immediately after the partition. (The UN is so useless.) I guess there were foreign fighters in this war – ex-Axis fighters, arabs from outside Palestine, etc. I wouldn’t really call that an “invasion”, though – the main combatants/sides were local to the area.“please stop pretending they are the victims here” At various times certain Jews were certainly victims! And at other times and places they were the victimizers. Of course; and we both know this, so, again, I don’t understand why you’re saying this.
(DIR) Post #AalphQlnqUkjFU25qa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T19:29:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech “Of course they came with weapons.. what are YOU on about? On may 1947 they and a group “ – came from where? They were already there. But you know this? I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here.No, there were very few isralis already there. Prior to the invasion there were about 160K Palestinian Jews, some of whom chose to stay palestinian at the start of the invasion. Contrast this with the 800K arabs in the area.Once the invasion was announced (that is, the international community of jews, along with the UN, declared they would invade an annex half of palestine for themselves), The resulting population, as part of right-of-return, skyrocketed.As a result of this invasion by the end of the year in 1947 (the invasion was made official earlier that year) the invading jewish population had more trippled in that short time to over 630.So no they werent “already there” 2/3 of the invasion were jews from around the world who migrated there to participate in the invasion either as a settler to the newly stolen land, or as military themselves. Often a bit of both. “they are illegal immigrants” Again, what? When Jewish refugees were coming in like 1925 under the British you’re saying that was illegal? Can you give me a source on that? Was it illegal before the British took over?Yes, the british had no rights to allow anyone to come, they were occupying Palestinian territory and they had no right to allow anyone in or out, or to occupy the space at all.So while people may have come thinking it was legal, since the British occupation is illegitmate (as all occupations are) and only the native people had any right to allow immigration, yes they were wholly illegal as an occupying force. “defend their land and prevent the invasion and annexing of their land.” and “they just decalred one day half the country was theirs and then went in and took it….” No? The British, eager to get out, had to leave something behind when they left, so they partitioned according to where people lived at the time, yes? (or had the UN do it) There’s plenty to say regarding how the partition plan should have been done differently, of course, but I can’t fathom how it is a “literal invasion”.No, it was not where they were living at the time. Arabs and jews were intermixed throughout the country. Yes there were some towns for one group or the other in some cases, but those towns were often intermixed among the landscape.Also, britain doesnt get to split up a country that already existed… their claim to palestine was as invalid as the Jews. The british didnt live there, only a population of citizens has any moral right to decide to split their country, and this is NOT what happened
(DIR) Post #AalqYDHUjAGglI1bVo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T19:38:38Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@echTo drive my point home attached is a map of the Jewish settlements pretty much the day before the invasion was declared (left).. AS you can see they re intermixed with palestinian/arab land, and this was all one country.On the right, however, is the borders they declared in their own and intended to Annex in the invasion of 1947 and the war that followed. As you can see not only did they steal significant land that had no jews on it.. but the borders change the dynamic significantly since at the time Jews made up something like 10% of the population yet were given more than 50% of the land.So yea its very clear they invaded and stole land and your narrative of them already being on the land is over the inaccurate.#Israel #Palestine
(DIR) Post #AalrXwfaaWThCFjNtA by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T19:49:47.839797Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn What do you mean “who knows”I mean, at the very least, that I do not know. I have yet to see any evidence that anyone has died through starvation or dehydration in #Gaza due to the siege.
(DIR) Post #AalrZHBJoMa76PCsjI by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T18:46:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @freemo @kjetil_kilhavn It's only understandable because we understand that they don't care about civilians.This is somewhat common in war – the leadership has twisted motivations misaligned with the population, causing a war to happen or affecting how it is carried out. Consider how Putin is happy to have thousands of his own troops slaughtered and wreck his economy if it means he can cement his position and personal security. Similarly the Kim dynasty in NK: it doesn't bother them in the slightest that their people are starving, as long as they remain firmly in power. It's not like they ever went hungry themselves.
(DIR) Post #AalrlY9WXUJpDDDh5M by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T19:52:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins So you dont understand how highly dense urban ghettos without water or electricity for many months on end leads to tons of deaths... I mean you wont hear about it because its indirect, they dont have running water so they shit in the stream, the same stream that is now their only source of unclean water so they drink from it or wash with it.You dont understand how it would be damn near impossible for people not to die from that? It just is indirect enough youll have a hard time quantifying it.@Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #Aals77SCU8gEmJEzJo by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2023-10-14T19:56:10.258782Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn Yes I do, I’m not that dense. I already said what I meant. I presume that it’s only a matter of time before civilians die due to the siege if they haven’t already. It takes more than “there’s a siege!” for me to believe that there have already been casualties though.
(DIR) Post #AalsCFosoBm4AkIap6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T19:57:03Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ech And to further drive the point home… attached is the border of palestine in 1919 as recognized internationally before the invalid british take over. AS you can clearly see before the British not only was it 100% Palestine with no large swaths of Jewish land at all (the jews were there but largely intermixed)https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_claimed_by_WZO_1919.pngSo basically the brits invaded, took over, told jews they could come there, displaced the muslims by about 10%, and then the brits left and said the Jews now owned more than 50% of the land.Sorry but thats an invasion by any measure.
(DIR) Post #AalsPrWzuQxQtgQE7c by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T19:59:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@realcaseyrollins The water and electricity has been off for much of gaza for more than 2 years (it was off the whole time i was there) due to Israel military intervention... The only thing that changed is they decided to cut it off for MORE of the country than before... people have already been starving and dieing of disease en masse (why do you think so many international agencies are condemning them for apartheid?)Whenyou understand the level of poverty and disease inflicted on them for many many years it might make sense why they are radicalizing. As I've said it is never moral, but when your people have been treated as they have for as long as they have it is completely expected. They are desperate, desperate people whoa re being exterminated will do crazy radical shit.@Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn
(DIR) Post #AalscGLDUZSbJppB1U by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T20:01:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo160k vs. 700k and “Jews made up something like 10%”: Wasn’t the Jewish population like 500k by 1940? Your 160k to 700k sounds more like 1930 numbers? I’m not sure where you got those from, are you talking about a specific region that is much smaller than ex-Mandatory Palestine? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_Statistics,_1945 – is this a total fabrication by the British??)When the partition was made, Jews were about 600k, 1/3 of the population. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that number went from 160k to 600k in 1947. From everything I can find, this is not true? Instead, 160k->600k was gradual over a generation. (Do you have better sources than I do?(One of the possible complaints about the partition plan that I alluded to, and possibly one of the main causes of the war, was that the Jewish state has 2/3 the land despite having 1/3 the people.)It’s true that Jewish immigration skyrocketed after 1948, but that seems neither here nor there wrt. this discussion.“Yes, the british had no rights to allow anyone to come, they were occupying Palestinian territory” …uh, ok… I’m not trying to justify British colonialism here, not sure what your point is. (FWIW the ottomans before the British didn’t seem to be stopping this immigration either. Are you arguing someone had a moral right to stop it but was prevented from doing so? If so, who?)“Arabs and jews were intermixed throughout the country. “ Yes, again, as I said, there’s probably much about the partition plan that could have been done better. UN == (steaming bowl of elephant piss). fully agree. Something had to happen, though: there were 1/2 million Jews there and tons of violence. Do you think you could have done better?“britain doesnt get to split up a country that already existed” The UN you mean? OK, but … what should they have done, then? Given Turkey control over everything again, since that is the “country” that existed before the British won WW1? there’s no useful status-quo ante here, Freemo. I’m not sure what you are thinking on this one.“only a population of citizens has any moral right to decide to split their country, “ Yeah, I agree it would have been ideal if the Jewish, Arab, (and other) leadership could have hammered this out on their own. Now, Freemo, why do you think that didn’t happen? It certainly wasn’t because the British cared, they were clearly just trying to escape without any more of their troops getting killed.
(DIR) Post #AaluHxTg7HECvoEDHU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T20:20:29Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ech 160k vs. 700k and “Jews made up something like 10%”: Wasn’t the Jewish population like 500k by 1940? Your 160k to 700k sounds more like 1930 numbers? I’m not sure where you got those from, are you talking about a specific region that is much smaller than ex-Mandatory Palestine?Ok so you have to keep in mind, 1947 is only when the invasion was announced with official borders for the annex. The start of the invasion was the british takeover in 1920, which had started in 1917 witht he Balfour decleration where Britain proclaimed its intention to take over the region and roce the invasion of jewish people upon the population currently living there. That was the start of the invasion in one sense or another as the british used its power to force the palestinians to accept jewish-only immigrants on to their land while explicitly denying arab imigrants in an attempt to intentionally tip the balance in that region.So over the course of time from 1920 when the occupation of the british began, until 1947 when the Jews carried on the invasion on their own (and officially announced borders they intended to annex) was largely when the influx began.So here are the official numbers for those dates (Source cited at the end):1922 before the start of the occupation/invasion by brits: 84K Jews, 589K Muslim thats over 7x more Muslim than jews.1947 at the end of British occupation after intentionally trying to inflate the area with more jews: 630K jews, and 1.1 million Muslims. Still approximately twice the number of Muslims to jews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_Statistics,_1945 – is this a total fabrication by the British??)Yes, and no. The numbers there line up with what I said above… But its important within context. The British took over and occupied the land giving the native people no say in their own democracy, and in fact were intentionally diminished. Over the course of their rain they declared publicly their intent was to force millions of immigrants, jews, on the Palestinians against their objections. The numbers only rose to that level due to the British invasion and intentional injection of illegal immigrants into Palestine. So yes the ratio when from 7:1 to 2:1 in favor of palestinians due to an occupying force intentionally manipulating the population. When the partition was made, Jews were about 600k, 1/3 of the population. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that number went from 160k to 600k in 1947. From everything I can find, this is not true? Instead, 160k->600k was gradual over a generation. (Do you have better sources than I do?I cited sources for this. Population of jews went from 84K to 630K over the course of 20 years. This was intentionally done by Britain to manipulate the population in favor of Jews as they announced before their takeover that they would do exactly that. …uh, ok… I’m not trying to justify British colonialism here, not sure what your point is.My point is that since the british was an invalid occupying force, and they acted contrary to the wishes of the citizens, those citizens are not valid since they were not recognized by the people who already were living on that land and were the rightful democratic body to make such a decision.The brits cant just come in, force a bunch of white people on everyone and then leave and go “nope they have a right to be there”… like hell they do, Britain never had the right in the first place. fully agree. Something had to happen, though: there were 1/2 million Jews there and tons of violence. Do you think you could have done better?I mean the brits are the ones who put those people there and started the violence… So yea something had to happen, they had to get those people out of the land they had no right to be on. If britain wanted to give refugees a home they should have given them part of britain, not someone elses home.Citation:Pergola, Sergio della (2001). “Demography in Israel/Palestine: Trends, Prospects, Policy Implications” (PDF). Semantic Scholar. S2CID 45782452. Archived from the original (PDF) on 20 August 2018.
(DIR) Post #AalvL444BOSKBQIGKu by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-14T20:32:13Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo I find this post quite well researched and accurate. Shalom.@ech
(DIR) Post #AalvMqq4KKDHk9b9Qe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T20:32:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin thank you@ech
(DIR) Post #Aalx1auEZMUI9iXQIa by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T20:51:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo oh I see! In your earlier post you said “Once the invasion was announced (that is, the international community of jews, along with the UN,”, so pretty clearly 1947. (there was no UN at the time of Balfour Declaration) So I thought that’s what you meant by the numbers you gave.Aside: You know, I’m having a hard time following you. You obfuscate a lot – e.g. calling something “illegal immigration” when you really mean “The British shouldn’t have encouraged Jewish immigration or even been there at all”. I mean, I see your point, and I even agree with you (of course I agree with you) that the British shouldn’t have colonized 99% of the world generally and made this problem a lot worse – in more ways than just that! – specifically. But like it took an awful long time for me to nail down what it was you were talking about! I took you at your word and was thinking you’re saying the Ottomans weren’t enforcing their immigration laws or something.😂 It’s exhausting! in a conversation like this it sure would be easier to follow if we were speaking a bit more precisely.OK so you really are all in on this “refugee immigration” == “invasion” rhetoric. Like, deliberately. Well, that is disappointing.“they had to get those people out” – so you understand how awful that would have been at that point, in 1947, right? I mean, even if you think the initial immigration was a terrible thing, a huge chunk of those people were born in Palestine, even. It’s like the Soviet relocations – I guess you’re thinking of Jewish immigration to Palestine as if it was like that – this was absolutely horrible that they did that, but what are you going to do about the situation in Crimea and other places like that 100 years later?You object to this multi-generational refugee immigration under various empires, and as a result you want the solution in 1947 to be to solve it basically with ethnic cleansing. I mean, there’s a lot going on there, but that is disgusting.
(DIR) Post #AalxtFXaDmDLWuWoOe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:00:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech h I see! In your earlier post you said “Once the invasion was announced (that is, the international community of jews, along with the UN,”, so pretty clearly 1947Well im glad we clarified now that this is in refernce to 1917, the first announcement of invasion. Yes I could have been more clear, so not your fault. But now we are on the same page, so great. So I thought that’s what you meant by the numbers you gave.Understandable miscommunication. Glad we resolved that. Aside: You know, I’m having a hard time following you. You obfuscate a lot – e.g. calling something “illegal immigration” when you really mean “The British shouldn’t have encouraged Jewish immigration or even been there at all”. I mean, I see your point, and I even agree with you (of course I agree with you) that the British shouldn’t have colonized 99% of the world generally and made this problem a lot worse – in more ways than just that! – specifically. But like it took an awful long time for me to nail down what it was you were talking about! I took you at your word and was thinking you’re saying the Ottomans weren’t enforcing their immigration laws or something.😂 It’s exhausting! in a conversation like this it sure would be easier to follow if we were speaking a bit more precisely.Words are important, you tried to claim they were just immigrants at the get go… thats very confusing considering they were an invading force and not “just immigrants”.. they came there to kill the other side and take their land.Luckily I am happy to explain if any words confuse you, while I will continue to use, perhaps unusual, but more factually accurate terms you can always just ask if they confuse you. There is a lot of context so I do understand the need to elaborate on any of it, so no worries. OK so you really are all in on this “refugee immigration” == “invasion” rhetoric. Like, deliberately. Well, that is disappointing.I mean they literally showed up with weapons and killed and shot the other side to take the land… it is a Very accurate description. In fact to become an Israel citizen you are required to pick up a weapon and shoot the other side by israel law. Not just immigrants but those born there.. this has been established since the early days… Like it is literally an invasion, those people had weapons and killed others as part of the condition of their immigration.Calling them simple refugee immigrants is highly unfair considering. so you understand how awful that would have been at that point, in 1947, right? I mean, even if you think the initial immigration was a terrible thing, a huge chunk of those people were born in Palestine, even. It’s like the Soviet relocations – I guess you’re thinking of Jewish immigration to Palestine as if it was like that – this was absolutely horrible that they did that, but what are you going to do about the situation in Crimea and other places like that 100 years later?Well maybe thats why you shouldnt invade another country and take their land by force that you havent had any right to in over 2000+ years… You sure as fuck dont tell them that they now annexed the land for themselves and you kick off the far more densly populated natives as if you somehow have a right.Like even if they decided to stay, the only ethical way to stay is as a palestinian under their laws and following their rules.. Dont like it, well maybe you shouldnt have picked taht country to invade knowing you or your kids might have to be held accountable for your immoral acts.
(DIR) Post #Aaly4m11ow0vQznPQ8 by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-14T21:02:56Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemoThe thing is, it's been 75 years. Israel is now a State. They are there. This is a fact which will not change, if the Israeli government has anything to say about it. The fact is, Israel exists.Israel's conflict with their neighbors in Palestine goes back much further than the British Occupancy and the League of Nations' decision to create a Jewish State.. and the creation of a Jewish State had less to do with "shoving white people" into the region and more to do with setting up a place for Jews to live which was historically correct, and where Jews could be in control of their own destiny.Now, the newly minted Israeli government decided that it needed to be strong and militant in order to defend its borders. This militantism rekindled older negative feelings between the Palestinians and other Arabs and the Israelis. As their population grew (due to Right to Return), they ended up needing more land for their people, so the invasions started, etc...We're victims of history. We aren't being punished by (or because of) that history, but we are being punished because of our REACTIONS to that history. Cooler heads 75 years ago, and cooler heads today, on both sides of the conflict, would've been better advised... b ut here we are.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aalyt7RARwMmLr1qy0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:12:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin @ech The thing is, it’s been 75 years. Israel is now a State. They are there. This is a fact which will not change, if the Israeli government has anything to say about it. The fact is, Israel exists.This is true, it exists, however illegitimate that existence may be. It should not, however, have the right to continue to exist. Simply because its existance is at the expense and theft from those that have been on that land for a very long time.The proper result is for israel to apologize, dissolve itself, and put themselves at the mercy of Palestine, or they give 100% of the land back to.. invest whatever resources the country has to enable israelis to leave the country if they wish… liquidate the whole thing, people can take a chunk of the nations wealth and use it to relocate if they can (thankfully they are at most 80 years removed from a proper home).. those that cant or wont relocate will be handled as immigrants by palestine.YEs I know it will be horrible and displace a lot of people.. but no more so than the Palestinians have already been displaced, and at least that will give them back their home and start righting wrongs. Israel’s conflict with their neighbors in Palestine goes back much further than the British Occupancy and the League of Nations’ decision to create a Jewish State.. and the creation of a Jewish State had less to do with “shoving white people” into the region and more to do with setting up a place for Jews to live which was historically correct, and where Jews could be in control of their own destiny.Thats the narrative sure, and there is some truth to it.. They wanted to steal land from a group of people because they felt their ancestry from 3000 years ago which they might have 1/400th the genes for still somehow gave them some “right to it”… sorry but thats all nonsense to me. Many many people have left their ancestral homeland, it doesnt give you a right to make a 3000 year old claim against people who have been living there for a long long time. Now, the newly minted Israeli government decided that it needed to be strong and militant in order to defend its borders. This militantism rekindled older negative feelings between the Palestinians and other Arabs and the Israelis. As their population grew (due to Right to Return), they ended up needing more land for their people, so the invasions started, etc…Thats where we are at now, and I do agree… but the invasion started in 1919… the moment a forteign power decided toi abuse the land and resources of people living there it was an invasion. a 3000 year old excuse doesnt change that for me. Now, the newly minted Israeli government decided that it needed to be strong and militant in order to defend its borders. This militantism rekindled older negative feelings between the Palestinians and other Arabs and the Israelis. As their population grew (due to Right to Return), they ended up needing more land for their people, so the invasions started, etc…On this, and to some extent in general I agree… THe Isralis are wrong historically.. but as you say its a bit too late… but when the wrong that is israel is only 100 years old.. I’d argue that we cant just ignore the fact that Israel is the invading and occupying force. Which means everything they do is far worse ethically than if they had just always been there and rose up in a civil war or something.
(DIR) Post #AalywT8EFKo6VLlfKC by Yetimon@noagendasocial.com
2023-10-14T21:08:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @ech So let them move to Utah.
(DIR) Post #AalywUR3OpSYY1aDJ2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:12:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Yetimon I mean if your going to give them land anywhere, and take it from someone else, then it should be the germans.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam00sGOqganYuFp8y by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:23:51Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Yetimon @freemo there are many in the US – almost as many as Israel. Certainly not to toot our horn, though, we turned away thousands of refugees from the Nazis etc, to our great shame.
(DIR) Post #Aam00spqiswtKqq8Om by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:24:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech Yea sadly america is a disgrace when it comes to immigration... but thats another matter.@Yetimon
(DIR) Post #Aam0qsYd06olX3Zu9w by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:34:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@adminOh and thank you for your well thought out, reasoned, and practical take..Obviously i agree with much of it as well.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam1K3h0gBOmSuPdsO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T21:39:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@adminActually that last part I said, I want to modify it a bit…The resolution should be that the entire Israeli fovernment liquidates as I saidm and that money distributed to all current citizens who want to leave before being absorbed by palestine.In addition Germany should be required to pay some lump sum of money to help fund any israelis who want to immigrate away as well before beind absorbed.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam2YI95q9y9IZtnma by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-14T21:53:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo I believe you and I are at odds on one thing - I believe that Israel DOES have the right to exist. Jews were living in Palestine for centuries prior to the "British Occupancy"... They may or may not have had control of their government, and they may or may not have had a voice in their government (vis a vis the British), etc, but Jews have lived in that region for more than three millennia.The creation of a Jewish State in that region was a direct result of the atrocities perpetrated on Jews by the Nazis in Germany and the Fascista is Italy. The world decided Jews needed their own country. Don't blame Israel because the rest of the world was racist and didn't want Jews in their country - yes, even the United States, at the time, wouldn't take them in. The World decided that, since the region was already in turmoil, just NIMBY the Jews over there, give them Jerusalem and some land around it, and call it Israel.Would you be willing to give up Philly and all the land around it for 100 miles so that Israel can move in there? No? How about NYC? Rome? The point is that Jews have been there for most of written history. There was no recognized government in the region in the 1940s. Palestine existed only as a British Protectorate - its borders were defined by the ocean and the countries around it. The WORLD created this situation, by not wanting to take the Jews in themselves. The WORLD created this situation, by dropping Israel into Palestine with little more than bus fare and telling Israel, "This is yours, now. You're on your own."Your point that "Jews weren't there" is proved false by the census data you yourself provided. Jews WERE there, and have been for over 3,000 years.Your point that a foreign power's (Britain's) abuse was an invasion is correct, however, at the time the Israeli government was formed, there was no Palestinian government. Israel's legitimacy was created by the League of Nations at the time, and they were dumped into a region which had no government.I've got blood on both sides of this war. Israel isn't blameless, and neither are those acting in the name of Palestine. Just as the U.S. is guilty of atrocities, and every other government in existence, I condemn the atrocities, but the atrocities do not change whether that government has a right to govern until the world decides to take those countries to war.I tooted my rage and disgust when this current explosion created. I don't want this war...... but anyone who tries to convince me that the country the governments of the world had set up because they didn't want Jews in their countries is illegitimate will be presented with arguments similar to the above by me.Israel's government is legitimate - because the rest of the world didn't want Jews in their countries, because there was no existing government in the region at the time, and because of longevity.And you now want to boot modern Jews out of their own homes - the only homes they've known for 4 generations? and make Germany pay for it?Ok.. maybe that last sentence was a bit harsh, and maybe uncalled for, but it illustrates part of the point I'm making.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam4LhaC9cfOKmhTSS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T22:13:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin I believe you and I are at odds on one thing - I believe that Israel DOES have the right to exist. Jews were living in Palestine for centuries prior to the “British Occupancy”… They may or may not have had control of their government, and they may or may not have had a voice in their government (vis a vis the British), etc, but Jews have lived in that region for more than three millennia.See what you just explained to me is a reason why “Jews have a right to continue to live in the area”… they do.. that isnt the same as saying they have a right to take away the land from others and call it their own simply because they have been living there a while.There were jews in palestine for a long while, I completely agree those jews that have been there for many generations, and even the ones born there now, have a right to be there, its just, as part of palestine… What they dont have a right to do is take palestine for themselves and kick everyone else out.Thats why in my solution israel citizens would have a right to stay, but only by being absorbed by palestine and participating in their democracy, The creation of a Jewish State in that region was a direct result of the atrocities perpetrated on Jews by the Nazis in Germany and the Fascista is Italy. The world decided Jews needed their own country.If the world decided that then the only country they may have had a right to give them was germany.I think your britsh, or maybe american? How would you feel if the UN decided that british/USA is now split, down the middle, and half of it will go to ukranians because of their abuse? Obviously britain would object, but hey the world decided right?No one can make that decision except for the people of a country… so the UN, someone who had no authrotiy to give away palestine, was illegitimate in making that decision… Nothing short of a vote from palestinians themselves would have made it a valid decision in my eyes. Would you be willing to give up Philly and all the land around it for 100 miles so that Israel can move in there? No? How about NYC? Rome?No because the same reason giving away palestine was wrong so is giving up NYC or anywhere else.. the truth is, jews have a home, its wherever those jews lived.. after the holocause they should have went bac to their homes or immigrated through normal means… I can list tons of religions who dont have a country of their own, are we supposed to kick people out of other countries and give them all a home? No… not every group has a country of their own, thats ok. Your point that “Jews weren’t there” is proved false by the census data you yourself provided. Jews WERE there, and have been for over 3,000 years.I didnt say jews werent there (if i did i mispoke).. I said israelis werent there… PAlestinian jews are perfectly valid and should have been allowed to remain palistinians. It was when the jews decided to invade, as outsiders, and take the land as Isralis that it was wrong, and no isralis were not there. Your point that a foreign power’s (Britain’s) abuse was an invasion is correct, however, at the time the Israeli government was formed, there was no Palestinian government. Israel’s legitimacy was created by the League of Nations at the time, and they were dumped into a region which had no government.The very existance of a people on a land makes a government. It may be a libertarian government (in the sense that there is no central authority) but that does not make the peoples claim to the land any less legitimate. In fact the idea that someone can come in and just take land simply because a people dont want nor need a centra government is a horrible piece of logic. I’ve got blood on both sides of this war. Israel isn’t blameless, and neither are those acting in the name of Palestine. Just as the U.S. is guilty of atrocities, and every other government in existence, I condemn the atrocities, but the atrocities do not change whether that government has a right to govern until the world decides to take those countries to war.I agree, having attrocities in your past doesnt determine if you have a right to govern… The reason the Israeli government has not right is because they are the invading and occupying force.. palestine (as a united nation with both jews and arabs present) is the legitimate and occupied government. Israel’s government is legitimate - because the rest of the world didn’t want Jews in their countries, because there was no existing government in the region at the time, and because of longevity.No you dont get to boot people from their country because their form of government isnt centralized enough for you… not at all. And you now want to boot modern Jews out of their own homes - the only homes they’ve known for 4 generations? and make Germany pay for it?No I gave two paths as options 1) if they dont want to live in palestine they can leave (funded by germans/israel) yes they can be “booted” or 2) they have a right to stay but they must stay under the government of palestine and go through the proper legal channels to become citizens of that government.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam4ay1XJEdLfWlfPc by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T22:16:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@adminI should point out one other addition here that I didnt before, but it makes a big difference.Ideally a third party should come in, invade them both to enforce the outcome I mentioned AND while the palestinian government takes over the entire country the hamas and the current government is deposed and a transitional government put in place to ensure democracy and terrorism is addressed.. largely to make sure the jews have a fair time of it and dont get slaughtered during the process.But in the end, it should be the democratic voice of the palestinian people who get to decide who and how people are allowed to remain in their country@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam4muTSKgf68PWPfU by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-14T22:18:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoSo, I want to be clear on your position, here... You're saying that Israel should be dissolved and turned over to Palestine, a group of people who have been without a government for over 100 years, and the Jews living in Israel should be "allowed to stay", to be ruled over by a people who despise and hate them, as individuals and as a people, because that would bring peace to the region?Do I have that correct?@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam4y00s4yauUzRIdE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T22:20:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin Almost but missing a few points.1) the hamas is dissolved by foreign government and transitional government formed as a democracy of palestinians and those who were on the land before it was taking from them is formed.2) Israelis have the option to leave (funded by Germany and the israel liquidation) if they do not wish to integrate with the people they stole the land from.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam5fsjaVEXWfLHPxg by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-14T22:28:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo So, to the people who were dropped into that region by the victorious governments of World War II, who did so because those governments didn't want to take the Jewish people in, who have had autonomy for the last 80 or so years, you would like to say, "You don't get to decide your own destiny any more - you have to now place yourselves under the rule of these people who don't really have a government, who hate you, and who will have the power to decide whether you get to be a citizen in your own land... Oh, and by the way, we're going to send in troops to invade and topple YOUR democratically elected government, just because we changed our minds."?@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam5v2FdOx6yWeUlmK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T22:30:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin Why do you keep ignoring half of what I said and design an argument around that.No... They can choose (ie self-determination) to move anywhere thy would like to immigrate to, funded by the germans to make sure they can afford the process.Integrating into palestine is only an option, not the only one.The only thing they cant do is keep stolen land they took through violence that was never theirs... other than that one little restriction I'd say getting a butt load of money to figure out your life isnt half bad. I mean it sucks, but dont have blood on your hands then?@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam63o0XjAH6xNcOmW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T22:32:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin You do know I have 1.2 million in assets in Israel and spent the last 2 years living there right?You realize I am one of those people who would be effected by the very thing I'm proposing. I would be kicked out and loose all of those resources. Something that is right, so I accept it.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam7XxfAUgKtXlZ0lc by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-14T22:49:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoI'd gathered, which is why I'm surprised at your stance.I've got other thoughts/ideas on how this could end much more peacefully.Israel ceases its objections to an actual, organized Palestinian State, and Israel gives up land for that Palestinian State to exist.The new Palestinian State prosecutes all acts of terrorism by its citizens against Israel.Israel prosecutes all acts of terrorism by its citizens against Palestine.Clear and "permanent" borders are drawn.Palestinians wanting to make their trek to mecca are allowed in to do so, much like the rest of the Arab world.Now, I don't have nearly the assets you have - not even close - in fact, when unemployment runs out in December (with the current job market) I'll likely have to sell my pot to piss in... but if Palestine leaves Israel alone, and Israel leaves Palestine alone, MAYBE the hatreds will die and disappear in time.. MAYBE.Israel has a right to exist, simply because when Israel was created by the rest of the world, the rest of the world didn't want them.@ech
(DIR) Post #Aam8DTp5pPhV9w0Hb6 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-14T22:56:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin > I'd gathered, which is why I'm surprised at your stance.The fact that this suprises you at all is so so telling about the world. Why should me loosing personally have any effect on my judgement of what is right or wrong. If I am on the side of wrong, and I am by owning those resources, then I should welcome what is right.This is what drives me nuts about people on both sides of this... no one is willing to do whats right, even if it means loss for them... they care more about keeping what they have then being held accountable for their theft or murders or wrong doing.> Israel ceases its objections to an actual, organized Palestinian State, and Israel gives up land for that Palestinian State to exist.....I dont think israel has a right to take land from palestine simply because the rest of the world doesnt want them.. But hey if palestinians were willing to let their land be stolen and agreed to that and generously gave them their land because they wanted to... then yea by all means I agree with you that form of peace would be great.But I cant imagine **anyone** just giving away part of their country they have lived on for thousands of years to be completely taken from them.At best just letting the isralis stay under pallestinian rule would be extremely generous since palestinians were never asked like they should have been.What israel needs to do is recognize **they** are in the wrong as invaders and take a position of humility,w here they admit the wrongs they did and ask, humbly, to be integrated (or have some modest piece of land)... but they need to come at it knowing they are wrong and knowing they are **asking** ffor the generocity of Palestine, and not just take what was never theirs.@ech
(DIR) Post #AamBqQT0XY67uFw50C by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T23:37:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo“Words are important, you tried to claim they were just immigrants at the get go…”Right. That is one of my like 2 central claims here. I’m glad that came across clearly. ;)“you can always just ask if they confuse you.”I did, many times. I do feel like you aren’t reading my clarifying questions sometimes; if you want to use hyperbolic rhetoric to describe things, I’d appreciate it if you would throw me a bone! I’ll try to be more concise and clear. Maybe that was part of the problem.“I mean they literally showed up with weapons and killed and shot the other side to take the land…”Ok again I don’t know what this means. I will ask to clarify. Are you suggesting that the Jewish refugees from Russian pogroms in the early 1900s were all professional soldiers that came off the ship with guns ablazing, killing all the Arabs they could see? (That seems obviously not remotely the case but you keep saying this so I am confused!)“In fact to become an Israel citizen you are required to pick up a weapon and shoot the other side by israel law.”Again, mystified. Are you for reasons unknown talking about the state of Israel’s conscription policy? (Which was instituted much later than the events we’re discussing? Or at least I think they are haha…)The Jews did militarize throughout the early 1900s after the violence caused by the immigration-related tension, is that instead what you mean? Just curious: was this mandatory-participation? Can you point me to a source about that? (Not that I consider it all that significant, but I would find it surprising.) (Incidentally and apropos of nothing, this militarization is probably why they won the 48/49 war.)“Well maybe thats why you shouldnt invade another country and take their land by force that you havent had any right to in over 2000+ years…”Again, unclear: are you still talking about colonial empires (Turks/Brits)? (That feels like the context here, maybe.) If so: again, I wholeheartedly agree. In talking to you here I’m wondering if, in a sense, this is all their “fault”: if the area had been locally governed by a just and popularly-supported government all those centuries, they could have maybe done a much better job managing any waves of refugees during the 1900s. (This would not be the only example of intractable violence after the dissolution of colonialism in the latter 1900s!)Ok I feel like we disagree about two main things:(1) The motives or color of the Jewish immigration ~1900–47. You seem to be imputing evil (e.g. “invasion”) to, what, like a half million people, over many decades, many of them escaping genocidal violence. To me, that always seems suspect: there are definitely times when this sort of thing has happened, but the null hypothesis to me is always going to be: mostly people just trying to live their lives, with some assholes. There is a huge tendency though generally to ascribe evil conspiratorial motives to anything the Jews do throughout history, so this coloring is not surprising. (Again though you made a good point about the British probably making things worse in a variety of ways.)(2) How much (1) matters when describing the moral implications of what Israel or Hamas or anyone else is doing in modern times. You have what I feel is kind of an idealistic desire to right all historical wrongs. To me I feel like a pretty extreme take on (1) would be necessary to justify the kinds of things you’re talking about, like “invasion-by-good-guys”, reparations, ethnic cleansing and mass forced migrations, etc. And even then I don’t think they would justify them: several generations have passed and your proposals would cause truly enormous, trail-of-tears–level, human suffering. (But see below about how we probably do agree on a lot!)I suspect we agree on a lot of things (I’m sure I’m mostly ignorant of the details around these issues, though, so I’ll try not to say too much): Israel needs to do a better job with due process kinds of things: bulldozing houses, unjustly condemning property, and so on. Israel needs to find less violent ways of enforcing its borders against protesters. (This is hard though!) Israel needs to do a better job protecting Palestinians from crimes by Jewish settlers. Any fight against Hamas right now needs to be done with an absolute minimum of civilian casualties. Israel and Egypt probably need to operate in better faith about letting non-military trade good into Gaza. (The whole open-air prison thing.) Israel should probably find ways to unoccupy the West Bank etc now-ish. US aid should probably be contingent on those things.(I think these there are the kind of thing you’re getting at with a lot of your rhetoric about Israeli abuse of Palestine in modern times, yes?)
(DIR) Post #AamCcxsZcJRXQu2U6a by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-14T23:46:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @admin it is nice to be privileged enough where you can take political positions that don't benefit you personally.
(DIR) Post #AamDz3uHzEsoS6wTfE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:01:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech@ech Right. That is one of my like 2 central claims here. I’m glad that came across clearly. ;)It did yes.. and calling immigrants who arive with guns and tanks shooting the other side simply “immigrants” rather than what they are, invaders is highly inaccurate. I did, many times. I do feel like you aren’t reading my clarifying questions sometimes; if you want to use hyperbolic rhetoric to describe things, I’d appreciate it if you would throw me a bone! I’ll try to be more concise and clear. Maybe that was part of the problem.As far as I know every time you asked for clarification I gave it to you. If that is not the case please feel free to let me know what I missed… Once I made it clear what I meant i continued to use the phrase, expecting you to now understand it. again if you remain unclear just ask. Ok again I don’t know what this means. I will ask to clarify. Are you suggesting that the Jewish refugees from Russian pogroms in the early 1900s were all professional soldiers that came off the ship with guns ablazing, killing all the Arabs they could see? (That seems obviously not remotely the case but you keep saying this so I am confused!)In israel since its formation until the present day anyone who comes and immigrates there must serve int he IDF for several years as a condition of their citizenship (including those born into citizenship). Meaning these immigrants, when they landed, knew they would have to pick up a gun and shoot a bunch of native palestinians in order to earn their citizenship and be allowed to immigrate there.So no they werent just immigrants they were comatants, invaders who were awarded immigration as well, but were combatants first.The law that requires immigrants to fight was established as one of the first things when Israel was founded… so yes they are all combatants first, immigrants second. Again, mystified. Are you for reasons unknown talking about the state of Israel’s conscription policy? (Which was instituted much later than the events we’re discussing? Or at least I think they are haha…)Yes I am talking about that, and no it wasnt established much later. The policy was enacted when israel was first formed. Prior to the formation of Israel it was the british who were the combatants, so either way it was a consistent invading force. The Jews did militarize throughout the early 1900s after the violence caused by the immigration-related tension, is that instead what you mean? Just curious: was this mandatory-participation? Can you point me to a source about that? (Not that I consider it all that significant, but I would find it surprising.) (Incidentally and apropos of nothing, this militarization is probably why they won the 48/49 war.)We are talking about IDF mandatory conscription, which again was on the books since the very begining of the founding of israel. Again, unclear: are you still talking about colonial empires (Turks/Brits)? (That feels like the context here, maybe.) If so: again, I wholeheartedly agree. In talking to you here I’m wondering if, in a sense, this is all their “fault”: if the area had been locally governed by a just and popularly-supported government all those centuries, they could have maybe done a much better job managing any waves of refugees during the 1900s. (This would not be the only example of intractable violence after the dissolution of colonialism in the latter 1900s!)I am talking about anyone who chooses to move to israel fromt he first day of its founded knowing they would be taking land away fromt he natives and would have to pick up a weapon and terrorize them.. anyone who is a part of that is int he wrong. 1) The motives or color of the Jewish immigration ~1900–47. You seem to be imputing evil (e.g. “invasion”) to, what, like a half million people, over many decades, many of them escaping genocidal violence. To me, that always seems suspect: there are definitely times when this sort of thing has happened, but the null hypothesis to me is always going to be: mostly people just trying to live their lives, with some assholes. There is a huge tendency though generally to ascribe evil conspiratorial motives to anything the Jews do throughout history, so this coloring is not surprising. (Again though you made a good point about the British probably making things worse in a variety of ways.)So to be clear, no….1920 - 1947 the invasion was carried out by the british as the occupying force, but during this time jews immigrating in were not strictly required to join the jewish terrorist groups, though many did by choice. During this time you had the Irgun and later the offshoot Lehi group which were the paramilitary arm of the jews migrating there during this time. Their goal, along side the british (and sometimes against them in the case of lehi) was to commit all sorts of horrific terrorist acts towards the palestinians. Int he case of Lehi their stated goal was to create an israli state so they can have uncontrolled immigration and take over and expel the arabs and british.From the moment israel was formed this terrorism became mandatory and it was integrated into the IDF, and now all immigrants were required to join, rather than just joining cause they wanted to. (2) How much (1) matters when describing the moral implications of what Israel or Hamas or anyone else is doing in modern times. You have what I feel is kind of an idealistic desire to right all historical wrongs. To me I feel like a pretty extreme take on (1) would be necessary to justify the kinds of things you’re talking about, like “invasion-by-good-guys”, reparations, ethnic cleansing and mass forced migrations, etc. And even then I don’t think they would justify them: several generations have passed and your proposals would cause truly enormous, trail-of-tears–level, human suffering. (But see below about how we probably do agree on a lot!)Yea well it would be alot different if you lived in israel like i did and see the horrible abuse the Israelis enforce on palestinian day after day… In the entire 2 years I was there they had parts of gaza strip intentionally without water or power as a punishment to the citizens (something amnesty international has called them out for before)… I have seen first hand what they do , this isnt a matter of history, its about the fact that they are STILL doing it.
(DIR) Post #AamFCAgqB8EXCzSzku by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:14:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo “I am talking about anyone who chooses to move to israel fromt he first day of its founded” Oh my I am so confused :) You appear to be going back and forth between making it clear that we’re talking about pre-1947 then making it clear that we’re talking about after the state is founded.I think at this point I pretty much have no idea what you’re saying.“Yea well it would be alot different if you lived in israel…” – see here you’re talking about alleged problematic actions by Israel today, and I feel like I’ve made it pretty clear I’m not talking about that (My like whole point is what you say here: “this isnt a matter of history”). We’re just talking past each other.Well, thanks for trying 😂 All the best, and praying for peace and justice.
(DIR) Post #AamFFQzc1PH2dhnq3k by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:15:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @admin it is nice to be privileged enough where we can take political positions that don't benefit us personally!
(DIR) Post #AamFWiC3K6auuQrOds by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:18:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech “I am talking about anyone who chooses to move to israel fromt he first day of its founded” Oh my I am so confused :) You appear to be going back and forth between making it clear that we’re talking about pre-1947 then making it clear that we’re talking about after the state is founded.Because both time periods are relevant to the discussion… 1920 - 1947 was the start of the invasion in one form (british being the primary occupying force and the jews forming their own paramilitary groups as well).. and then 1947+ was when the invasion was taken over by the jews (now isralis) and britain left.We cant talk about either phase of the invasion independently. I think at this point I pretty much have no idea what you’re saying.Sorry about that. “Yea well it would be alot different if you lived in israel…” – see here you’re talking about alleged problematic actions by Israel today, and I feel like I’ve made it pretty clear I’m not talking about that (My like whole point is what you say here: “this isnt a matter of history”). We’re just talking past each other.No no every point in time matters… Today is just the history we are still making.You cant have this discussion without talking about the area pre-1920, 1920-1947 and 1947 to present… The full picture needs to be discussed if you ever want to reach an udnerstanding.
(DIR) Post #AamG6ikcjASn40CWPI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:25:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech Not privilage.. if I lost what I have in israel I would not be able to afford to feed myself... So its far from the fantasy of me being so privilages i can afford to loose it.In fact what little privilage I have i recognize, as israeli in nature, is due to the exploitation of palestinians and as such I am simply willing to loose everything because what is right is more important.shame on you to assume its because im so privileged it doesnt matter.@admin
(DIR) Post #AamGYahAGwRaBfs9vE by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:30:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo “You cant have this discussion without talking about the area pre-1920, 1920-1947 and 1947 to present…” ok, but we also can’t have the discussion if any statement or question about one era is interpreted to be about the other. 😂
(DIR) Post #AamGafJC5gv34geKy8 by admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net
2023-10-15T00:30:25Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo I've been labeled antisemitic here on Mastodon (I know.. crazy, huh?) for comparing people's stances on TBP and other toxic subjects to Nazi Germany... I can only imagine what those people who condemned me for a comparison would say about you for your stance.I don't have to like your opinion, but I won't condemn you for having it. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject, either, so I think I'd rather just agree to disagree and move on to other subjects of conversation.This is what intelligent people do... and how I wish both Palestine and Israel would behave.@ech
(DIR) Post #AamGhYIEZYrpLMU6Fs by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:31:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @admin You said it matters! I certainly wasn't assuming otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AamGnhieRJNkJcm4pM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:32:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech Hahah this is true… as I said im sorry if i wasnt more clear at various points… I do tend to assume others know the history well enough to know from context what I mean… a fault of my own not yours.
(DIR) Post #AamH8TnTOgXvDYw7A8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:36:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admin Oh no worries I have no ill will towards you evil, and I certainly dont mind you disagreeing. If anything I very much welcome disagreement and would say you should feel free to interject.Yes me being so blatantly frank about my opinions can get me in a lot of trouble... it is trouble I welcome as it usually gets the toxic people who cant be respectful to block me based on opinion alone... my feed is quite pleasant as a result usually with amazing people like you :)I will say your stance has caused me to reflect on things like native americans and other issues... and I do agree there is some room for refinement and consistency... Generally where i am slowly starting to lean towards as a general rule is "A person has a right to citizenship wherever they are born, and a right of return to wherever their parents were born, or, anyone alive when they were born"... This mostly works for me, but it creates this sort of messed up situation where as long as acountry to annex another for at least one generation they have legal claim over it that cant be reversed... and that seems like too easy to take advantage of.@ech
(DIR) Post #AamHLLQhokUZ22QCSu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:38:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech then you dont think its privilage at alll, since I cant afford to loose it? In that case we agree :)@admin
(DIR) Post #AamI2WXKOlPpvn6mwq by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:46:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Nah, I don’t think that’s the problem, no worries.
(DIR) Post #AamICYexMN6DPZSfC4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:48:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ech I am not saying you dont know the history… just that i expect you to know it in a level of detail that might be excessive (such as the terrorism carried out by immigrants int he 1920-1947 era by jewish terrorist groups that largely started much of the problems)
(DIR) Post #AamINow7BRZ14urDqS by ech@qoto.org
2023-10-15T00:50:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo I’d mentioned that violence upthread; again not really the problem.
(DIR) Post #AammIjsJZTTyYeZa7M by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-15T06:25:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo I doubt that this is animation is 100% accurate, but in broad strokes, I think it is. And it claims that the only "Palestinian State" there ever was, was drawn up by the British in the 20th century.And there are a couple of "Israel" along the way of a very very tumultuous region over the millenia.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eIADs7Ct-Q(yes, I realize the map doesn't tell the story of Peoples)So, simple question; Which year did historical claims starts, and why that year?@admin @ech
(DIR) Post #AammYqADxOnohCcyae by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T06:28:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas If thats what the animation says then I can tell you its complete BS... we know quite well that historically there were states called pallestine .. i mean we have maps with it literally printed on it. and plenty of historic references to palestine...Is your question what year was the first year we have recorded history of a land called pallestine?@admin @ech
(DIR) Post #AammrH2ykF9pHj1pU8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T06:31:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas Assuming that is your question then the earliest known map was in 150 AD, Ptolemy's map of Palestine. It labels the land as "palestini" in greek, essentially Palestine. There are of course countless maps following that, and the word is recorded to describe the area even earlier than that (though not in map form.@admin @ech
(DIR) Post #AamnRBCVxTR3ZubsOW by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-10-15T06:38:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Ptolemy is mentioned in the animation, and before that it says "Egypt". You claimed "Palestine" existed as a Country, not only as a region in a larger empire or controlling ruler. That is different.My point was mostly, that there is no reasonable cut-off year. History of Conquest sucks and there are no State level solutions. If people keep listening to (and riled up by) religious and political control freaks, the hatred will remain...@admin @ech
(DIR) Post #Aamp23hetggczeKIzo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-15T06:56:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@niclas Yes it was a district of Syria at first in 500 BCE it was..Yes there were times where the region was independent and not ruled by another. But im not sure you can call it a kingdom because im pretty sure they were nomadic and didnt have much need for a more formal government during those periods.But yea palestine was a region that for much of its history was indeed part of other larger regions/countries.@admin @ech
(DIR) Post #Aapm34hm5Hfa6o92ci by Babcia54@mstdn.ca
2023-10-16T17:06:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @Miriamm I'm convinced that hamas is a terrorist organization, well funded by Iran and who's only purpose is to destroy and eliminate Israel. The ways they go about this is shocking and shows little respect for life of anybody. As long as hamas exists, there is little chance of peace in the middle east, and very little chance of the Palestinians getting their own homeland. What hamas did over the weekend of the 7th was wrong, just wrong.
(DIR) Post #AasLseFnYlSFqGJ4Hg by fu@libranet.de
2023-10-17T22:57:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @ech @wjmaggos @realcaseyrollinsIts not about sacraficing lives... its a bit more nuanced than that.that sounds like what a fascist would say about governments killing people.
(DIR) Post #AasLzzBc8DScn2qeQq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-17T22:58:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fu And your reply sounds like something a toxic person would say who is incapable of discussing things critically, if at all.@realcaseyrollins @realcaseyrollins @ech
(DIR) Post #AauyBMYXlhmV1vLSro by fu@libranet.de
2023-10-19T05:16:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @realcaseyrollins @ech a toxic person?