Post AaRGB2Cy3HFgTUCkcq by tiago@social.skewed.de
(DIR) More posts by tiago@social.skewed.de
(DIR) Post #AaQLQHcFLzptDX9vua by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T10:40:54Z
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It seems like Mastodon is losing its mindshare to #Bluesky among many academics.I can't help but think this has to do with the self-imposed limitations of Mastdon — lack of quotes, ordered timeline, etc. Makes it less interesting to use, for no real advantage.Sad, because the underlying decentralization is much more robust.@academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaQLuffEVXfGUN2v8C by LukasBrausch@mastodontech.de
2023-10-04T10:46:24Z
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@tiago @academicchatter What's the argument against quotes on Mastodon again?
(DIR) Post #AaQLysqxPf7mYJXT8q by onisillos@mstdn.science
2023-10-04T10:47:06Z
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@tiago @academicchatter I've gotten that impression too. But I'm pretty sure that bluesky will eventually go down the same path as twitter, so I'm happy to stay out of it.
(DIR) Post #AaQM1WDy0FNjEsYe8W by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T10:47:40Z
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@LukasBrausch @academicchatter For every post you quote, a minority gets oppressed, or something like that.
(DIR) Post #AaQMPR0R3WjM0MdHRA by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T10:51:58Z
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@onisillos @academicchatter It's not so clear cut. It has an open protocol, and the moment people can run their own server, it principle we could avoid a lock-in. There might even be bridges to the fediverse.But it's surely an inferior alternative.
(DIR) Post #AaQMrLfiTvgfZNFfxw by faltenbalg@nrw.social
2023-10-04T10:50:29Z
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@LukasBrausch @tiago @academicchatter The argument is that you can easily gang up on people whose opinion you don't share.
(DIR) Post #AaQMrMSdY2oq168kDY by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T10:56:58Z
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@faltenbalg @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Pretty incongruous reason to disable one of the most elementary features on the web: linking to something.We a functional social network architecture, not a babysitter.
(DIR) Post #AaQMspu5Z9qfcagS8m by onisillos@mstdn.science
2023-10-04T10:57:16Z
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@tiago @academicchatter I'm happy to be wrong on this. But I have little faith in those running the show.
(DIR) Post #AaQMx2DDkFdixDdP3g by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T10:58:03Z
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@onisillos @academicchatter That's fair enough. I also have my doubts.
(DIR) Post #AaQN6PySlfeJFzCprE by jrfern@social.politicaconciencia.org
2023-10-04T10:59:39Z
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@tiago @academicchatter I think that's a fact, but the reasons might be non-technical (apart from the choose of server confusion and the difficulty of finding your former followers and followees): perception that this sometimes can be felt as a minority and not a very welcoming community maybe? That moving to the Fediverse is an ideological move? Imitations of TW, the "good old TW" are easier if that's all you're looking for.
(DIR) Post #AaQOx55hF4Tjn4GUbo by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-10-04T11:20:24Z
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@tiago @onisillos This is a #TyrannyOfConvenience issue.Codes of conduct have started to become close to ubiquitous in academic conferences (my impression in astro).If we could get software ethics into codes of conduct - making it clear that the choice of software and servers is ethically significant for the role of academic enquiry as part of the wider community, then #TyrannyOfConvenience arguments could start to become as unacceptable as bigotry.@academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaQPl1ppcayIAhf3Ls by vbuendiar@fediscience.org
2023-10-04T11:29:25Z
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@tiago @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Twitter introduced quoting not because it was an useful feature, it was because it increased engagement. And it does mainly because of negative interactions and dunking on other people. Just today I saw several examples (with actual academics). Mastodon has been trying to find a formula to implement quotes while respecting users, there's long debates on Github. Apparently the feature is to be implemented, it appears on the roadmap: https://joinmastodon.org/roadmap
(DIR) Post #AaQQQsvZ86SghxIm48 by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-10-04T11:36:59Z
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@tiago @LukasBrauschSocial media often includes opinions and sometimes rants, not just arguments and external evidence. Wikipedia !voting in 'WP:' space favours arguments+evidence.Seems to me it's an issue of dominant influence on a conversation, by switching between groups of followers: ' When people use quotes to reply to other people, conversations become performative power plays. “Heed, my followers, how I dunk on this fool!” ' [1][1] https://fedi.tips/why-cant-i-quote-other-posts-in-mastodon@academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaQRq1lRVnjTJB7Tua by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T11:52:49Z
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@vbuendiar @LukasBrausch @academicchatter It increases engagement because it's more useful. Not all people are idiots, you know? They engage more because they find more ways to use it.Including links to posts is such an obviously useful and neutral feature, it's hard to believe we can't do it.The idea that it drives negativity isn't based on real evidence. We can find acnedotes pointing in every direction we want.I'm happy this is in the roadmap, but I'm not holding my breath.
(DIR) Post #AaQS5HWbCFxIX5Rz72 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T11:55:33Z
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@boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter This is not based on any actual evidence. It's possible to find both positive and negative examples of quotes (and a bunch of other things), but no overwhelming evidence either way.
(DIR) Post #AaQT576c2DGSAkmMts by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-10-04T12:06:41Z
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@tiago I'm only presenting the argument, not the evidence. Many people are convinced of the evidence from personal experience on the birdsite (not me - no birdsite experience). I seem to remember that proper research has been done, but I didn't store the URLs - someone else can point to them. I vaguely seem to remember that the evidence was mixed and nuanced.@LukasBrausch @academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaQWiTpjlbHHolLh2G by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T12:47:27Z
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@davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter What if people have good takes?What if you are in a conversation, and you want to point out what somebody said 5 months ago on the topic.A quote would be ideal.But right now you have to post a link that takes people out of their instance once they click on it, there's no preview, etc.It's really weird that that *on mastodon* people only think of quotes when they want to insult someone.
(DIR) Post #AaQWrrHTxVgv93nYRc by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T12:49:11Z
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@boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Making strong design choices like this without equally strong evidence seems like a bad idea to me.
(DIR) Post #AaQX2XteMzZSD8kNqS by asayakkara@mas.to
2023-10-04T11:59:52Z
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@boud @tiago @LukasBrausch @academicchatter As the article says, if they are going to implement it as an opt-in feature to prevent quoting without consent, I'm happy with that.
(DIR) Post #AaQX2YoMy6wP33HgFk by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T12:51:05Z
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@asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter It should be at least opt out, not opt in.The fact that they are taking so long to implement something so trivial seems to indicate that the solution is likely to be quite contrived and limited.
(DIR) Post #AaQXu3OVzaABFPhMy8 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T13:00:37Z
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@davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter If you reply to someone, you're addressing them. If you quote them, you're addressing someone else. You're saying “look what this person is saying. It's interesting, bad, whatever. Here's what I have to add to it.”This is perfectly legitimate, and is not addressed by boosting/replying.You don't want people doing this to you? Well, then don't post, block them, whatever. They will always be able to quote you by copying your text, taking a screenshot, whatever. It's just going to be a more shitty experience for everyone.Just because you agree with this "coziness” (it's not cozy to me) that does not mean I should be prevented of making informative links to posts. It's condescending.
(DIR) Post #AaQZKTdd8nYw7mvqca by jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net
2023-10-04T13:16:40Z
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@tiago @academicchatter It's the same story being hyped again and again, IMHO. A few weeks ago it was Threads that would suck all energy out of the Fediverse. Today it is BlueSky. Tomorrow it will be something else. The weird thing is — ultimately the fediverse keeps on growing at a rather stable rate. Which makes sense, as it is here since many years and will stay around for many more years to come. The hype machine will find new targets, ActivityPub will stay ;)
(DIR) Post #AaQa8SlaeiIjttUSmG by asayakkara@mas.to
2023-10-04T13:25:46Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter My opinion is driven by the personal experience on Twitter.I've seen plenty of times, two people (say A and B) arguing by A quoting B's tweet, then B quoting that last quote by A, and that goes on back and forth — the power show in front of each other's followers. It made my Twitter experience terrible. The day Mastodon becomes a place like that, I'll say my good bye.
(DIR) Post #AaQaAjfQn49ctch2Fk by klauspforr@sciences.social
2023-10-04T13:26:11Z
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@tiagoMy impression is that at least in my relevant bubble the number of people just didn't reach a tipping point, i.e. the network effect just did not appear. It didn't help that coordination failed and people ended up on too many different servers.@academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaQetIMpXO9T4gUo5I by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T14:19:03Z
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@asayakkara @davidjamesweir @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter This has everything to do with the people that you were following and nothing to do with the technical aspects of the platform, ability quotes or whatever.The idea that people will turn into assholes as soon as a quote button appears is silly and patronizing.
(DIR) Post #AaQf2QtLDISs7Q3lL6 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T14:20:43Z
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@jwildeboer @academicchatter Maybe true, but the academic community will remain fragmented and possibly underrepresented in the fediverse, which is a shame.
(DIR) Post #AaQf36qzCRXKGHHTV2 by johnglass@ohai.social
2023-10-04T14:20:46Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Do users really spend their time on their local instance feed? That to me would be very presumptuous because wouldn't the following timeline be much more popular? On Xitter I would many times go to the quoted tweet to find context and that is no different here when quote linking. Not only are there dunking ad nauseum examples on Xitter but so many times arguments would take place via quote xeeting and it was a mess.
(DIR) Post #AaQfm1Fis3WlvCGXZY by fabiocosta0305@ursal.zone
2023-10-04T14:28:55Z
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@tiago @jwildeboer @academicchatter while our metrics are visibility, this is what will happen
(DIR) Post #AaQkqWBgIVG8nFL8ue by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-04T15:25:47Z
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@tiago @academicchatter @elduvelle academics rushing to a proprietary, data grabbing, invite only platform doesn’t reflect well on academia.it makes the idea of substantive academic/science reform feel rather hopeless, to be honest
(DIR) Post #AaQl8V7ezlYYhf2Awi by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-04T15:29:02Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter that argument applies to both design choices (QT yes, QT no)……so doesnt go anywhere, really, no?
(DIR) Post #AaQmM3ELau3YCoBefg by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T15:42:40Z
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@UlrikeHahn @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter In case of lack of definitive evidence for a supposed detrimental aspect of a functionality, it should not be disabled, since it has obviously good use cases.I don't have to prove to you that having a “like” button does not induces manic depression on users. It's on you to prove that it does.
(DIR) Post #AaQmqWNtlT6hJSBSJk by SRLevine@urbanists.social
2023-10-04T15:48:09Z
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@tiago @onisillos From what I've gathered (though I'm very much not a tech person) because of its basis in block chain the server resources to run a future blue sky instance aren't readily available to random people. Like large corporations could afford to, but institutions such as universities would be highly unlikely to run their own.
(DIR) Post #AaQocomokY3mEuQuVk by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T16:05:03Z
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@asayakkara @boud @tiago @LukasBrausch @academicchatter ❤️ Quoting as long as it is consensual. For those who don't fully understand consent: ⭐ The default setting is NO.
(DIR) Post #AaQod1qUCDick3FWXA by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T16:08:08Z
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@crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter The idea of needing consent to *cite* to publicly shared information seems completely incongruous to me.
(DIR) Post #AaQpVLylYXY4p31h2G by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T16:17:59Z
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@tiago @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter That might be because "citing" implies content that was designed to be shared in a fashion that social media posts are not. (e.g. a journal article vs an offhand comment)Pragmatically: we will never have this functionality unless those resistant to it are given the choice to not have it imposed on them.
(DIR) Post #AaQqfYsAZZQXf3N8oi by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T16:31:03Z
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@crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Since Mastodon posts are shared without any explicit licenses, we cannot talk about how they were designed to be shared.Right now google is indexing everything that we are writing. Good luck asking forcing them to stop.Also, should authors have the *power* to demand how they public posts are *linked* by others? If so, the internet would be unsustainable.It is strange to say that linking to something you have publicly posted is an “imposition”!You say that we will never have this functionality.This is easily disproved, since other fediverse members such as hubzilla have supported quotes for ages (and have not been overrun by toxicity, BTW). So right now you can already be quoted there, and can not opt out of it. Since all your posts have URLS, you can also be quoted from blogs, facebook, newspapers, Xitter, etc.In fact, I think it's precisely the opposite. It's a matter of time before we have unconstrained quoting and other features. The question is if it will be in the upstream version, or some fork. That's the beauty of free software in the end. The *user* has the freedom to determine what the software does, not the developers.
(DIR) Post #AaQrqzoMr6hOLjbtVQ by _bydbach_@hcommons.social
2023-10-04T16:44:14Z
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@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter But you already can quote through the backdoor by taking a screenshot and sharing a link to the original toot? If this function is so important to you, why don't you just do that?
(DIR) Post #AaQt9pXJNl69wEB2lE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T16:58:56Z
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@_bydbach_ @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Because it is inconvenient and substandard.It is a basic missing feature that makes Mastodon worse than it could have been.And if you follow the thread to the beginning, you will see that I think this is part of the reason why academics and others are going to other platforms.
(DIR) Post #AaQtULidRBxLXhG30a by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T17:02:39Z
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@UlrikeHahn @academicchatter @elduvelle I completely agree. But some are misinformed, and think bluesky is decentralized, etc.Independently of this, it does not help that Mastodon is semi-broken by design.We should not have to choose between a well functioning platform and a free/decentralized one.
(DIR) Post #AaQuBlY5HL3W6X1dJ2 by vbuendiar@fediscience.org
2023-10-04T17:10:25Z
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@tiago @LukasBrausch Based on the same argument that "not people are idiots": there's no need to have the possibility to block if most people is behaving fine, which is the case. The problem is that even a small amount of idiots can ruin the experience of certain users or communities.The idea that quotes drive positivity and nice things also is not based on evidence. Studies say quotes are not AS terrible as they seem, but to my eye do not seem very very positive either https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2023/01/12/quote-tweeting-over-30-studies-dispel-some-myths/
(DIR) Post #AaQupX0Km1JSZyCV4C by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T17:17:39Z
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@vbuendiar @LukasBrausch I never suggested that quotes drive positivity. My point is that they are neutral, and hence should not be disabled.The argument for blocking the small number users that are abusing is the same for quoting. If they quote you in a disrespectful way, just block them!
(DIR) Post #AaQuwlLlpoeb6Bfwg4 by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T17:18:56Z
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@tiago @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Clarifying:► "Imposition" is how it is seen by those who do want quote tweets: "... unless those resistant ... not have it imposed..."► Google engages in many harms; we are heading in a new direction which requires that we be better than them.► Cultural norms matter even in the absence of explicit licenses (not to say I agree there are no explicit licenses here).► We're not merely talking functionality but also form ... yes, we can take a polaroid of the message on the screen and scan it for a website, etc. The hope is ease-of-use while being respectful of those creating the content.Long term, it makes sense to consider many use cases, including those who have had bad experiences. It does not matter if I have not had their bad experiences. Their experiences and resulting impacts are valid. That should matter to me.
(DIR) Post #AaQw2BzKK3yh7KKYfA by TEG@mastodon.online
2023-10-04T17:31:07Z
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@tiago @academicchatter I'd love to see opt-in choices for algorithmic timelines.
(DIR) Post #AaQxW4mBnhWjOL00cy by _bydbach_@hcommons.social
2023-10-04T17:47:45Z
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@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I did read the whole thread.
(DIR) Post #AaQxYlsKWwfRdk9lsu by ChrisWilms23@qoto.org
2023-10-04T17:48:13Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Where does this unkillable notion that you can’t link to posts come from?https://social.skewed.de/@tiago/111176605344945194
(DIR) Post #AaQxyoxpfXfokU9TBA by ChrisWilms23@qoto.org
2023-10-04T17:52:57Z
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@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatterYou can link to posts. Nobody is preventing you from doing that.The fact that that link doesn’t display inline could be solved by any app.You made the same claim here:https://social.skewed.de/@tiago/111176605344945194
(DIR) Post #AaQyIYbqBXMTojHBpo by baum@social.digital-artifacts.net
2023-10-04T17:56:29Z
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@tiago @academicchatter well #Mastodon is not the #Fediverse and on #Firefish for example quotes look like this ^^
(DIR) Post #AaQyk6Kstmf6EkTlXE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:01:31Z
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@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter But it *isn't* displayed inline by most apps, including the default web interface. This is by choice, and is what I'm talking about. As soon as this is displayed inline, the quote problem is solved. It's trivial.
(DIR) Post #AaQyoBfX0qVPw35KLI by ChrisWilms23@qoto.org
2023-10-04T17:58:52Z
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@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatterNow, pointing out that none of these platforms let you easily properly quote and comment on posts, with multiple interleaved bits, that is a different thing. I the end, Usenet was far superior for actual discussions. If I may so how my age…
(DIR) Post #AaQyoCYTiYSSgSnCzI by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:02:14Z
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@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter Baby steps...
(DIR) Post #AaQyvEA68s1Hh6jtWC by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:03:31Z
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@baum @academicchatter Oh no, firefish must be overrun by toxicity and a terrible place for minorities! The horror!
(DIR) Post #AaQz4nYju9545FpRku by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T18:05:12Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch 😐 Yes, you can block them.😧 And then block the hordes of their followers responding to their whistle.😶 ... and then quit [platform] rather than deal with this.These technologies are easily / often used to exploit power imbalances. This is why it is a use case that must be considered -- even if we have not experienced it ourselves.There are many people who HAVE experienced the above. Requiring quotes to be opt-in addresses this problem.
(DIR) Post #AaQzT7MTvpIqRvgx0q by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:09:37Z
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@crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Requiring opt-in for being linked on the internet is a physical impossibility, and hence wishful thinking.I also think it's irresponsible to present users an option that they don't really have.
(DIR) Post #AaQzX75MtqyGkfamlk by FinchHaven@sfba.social
2023-10-04T18:10:20Z
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@tiagoBye!cc @academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaQztNPyrBQlmDqjUO by nominis@mastodon.social
2023-10-04T18:14:19Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch My unsolicited two cents: claiming quote posts are "inherently abusive" (as some claim in the fediverse) is like saying all essays are inherently polemical, all poems are inherently romantic, or all paintings are inherently realistic, etc.
(DIR) Post #AaQzuwH8k8zkAtSXg0 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:14:39Z
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@crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Also, it's so bizarre that you think the super toxic people and their hoards of followers are stopped by not being able to quote post.
(DIR) Post #AaQzzsbxnHTIG5YUcK by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:15:32Z
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@nominis @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Precisely. Form is not content. Correlation is not causation, etc.
(DIR) Post #AaR041kLlrsvkWSJs0 by asayakkara@mas.to
2023-10-04T18:16:17Z
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@tiago @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter If this is what you have been talking about all this time, I have no problem with it; it's a client-side feature that you need.But, Twitter's quoting functionality notifies the original tweet owner, that can be exploited (and people did) as a tool of aggression.I just now noticed that your original toot mentions "ordered timeline" as a bad thing as well. You are missing the whole point of Mastodon's existance.
(DIR) Post #AaR0EMz3fNWMVlGcHw by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T18:18:08Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch "[P]hysical impossibility" is a very high bar. You can take a photograph of a private DM and post it on here. That is not the same as using privacy settings that preclude others from doing so programmatically.So, it is not "physically impossible" to share somebody's private message but it CAN be prevented from WITHIN the ecosystem being used. (As it should be.)
(DIR) Post #AaR0WEi1AeFE3loeYa by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:21:25Z
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@asayakkara @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I don't care at all about notification, just the utterly basic functionality of being able to display the link to a post inline. But this is precisely what the anti-quote brigade objects to.Same thing with timeline ordering. It should be a client side preference.If I want to find out what were the most boosted posts in the last 24 hours (say, because I've been away), this should be possible.
(DIR) Post #AaR0aeSZN6h35ChBWC by perspektivbrocken@social.tchncs.de
2023-10-04T18:22:06Z
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@tiagoWell, at the same time you think a lot of people get stopped to use Mastodon at all because of missing quotes...But on a more productive note I want to mention that some fediverse services allow for quotes. Firefish does, I think. But as I myself do not miss them a lot I am ok with Mastodon.In the end, I would hope for some more recognition for the fact that there may be good and legitimate arguments for *and* against a quote function.@crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch
(DIR) Post #AaR0leODyMRy3DuLQm by ChrisWilms23@qoto.org
2023-10-04T18:24:12Z
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@tiago @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrauschI am likely oversimplifying and missing a key point here, but wouldn’t that simply be a matter of convincing one of the independent app developers to include this form of display?
(DIR) Post #AaR0r3Va0eNvP2vRuC by joshuagrochow@mathstodon.xyz
2023-10-04T18:25:07Z
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@tiago @academicchatter Can you elaborate on "the underlying decentralization is much more robust"?
(DIR) Post #AaR1E71v5ALAzA2xCy by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:29:21Z
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@crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch It can't really. These are paper shackles. You can already be quoted from other parts of the fediverse, there are already some mastodon apps that implement it. It's a client side thing and it's a matter of time before it becomes more widely available.In the meantime a lot of people conclude that mastodon is lame, and move away. Once millions of people are on another centralized platform with a better UI, we're back in the same situation we had with twitter
(DIR) Post #AaR1YUiohq6gFwpXv6 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:32:59Z
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@joshuagrochow @academicchatter Mastodon is based on an open standard, with many available implementations. The network and protocol are not owned by anyone.With bluesky we have only a promise that it will be like this in the future.
(DIR) Post #AaR1dfHGt5o0RTPa3E by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:33:57Z
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@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch Yes, basically. This is why I think it's just a matter of time.
(DIR) Post #AaR2WpDdcx0HCa0yCe by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T18:43:50Z
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@tiago @ChrisWilms23 @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch You are allowed to do these things if you wish.With your own instance you can work to offer in-line quotes. And you can also work to implement "engagement-centric" timelines.As for seeing this implemented by Mastodon proper, here are Eugen Rochko's thoughts. https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/99662106175542726
(DIR) Post #AaR2oxKwBUhfai4fdA by joshuagrochow@mathstodon.xyz
2023-10-04T18:47:11Z
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@tiago @academicchatter Ah, I see, so it's that the decentralization in Mastodon is *currently* more robust, not that there are fundamental obstacles to achieving similar decentralization for bluesky.
(DIR) Post #AaR3J7hcD1xsQZ4BbE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:52:39Z
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@joshuagrochow @academicchatter bluesky isn't even federated at the moment, much less robust. Theoretically they could be anything in the future, but it's unlikely, based on how they behave.
(DIR) Post #AaR3WkSbQ52YOhXd0y by joshuagrochow@mathstodon.xyz
2023-10-04T18:48:57Z
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@maikel @tiago @academicchatter Weren't there a bunch of bad-actor instances that mastodon.social and a bunch of other instances defederated from?Also, the instance I'm on occasionally blocks mastodon.social when a lot of spam is coming our way and it seems to work out okay. Full defederation isn't the only option, there are several shades in between.
(DIR) Post #AaR3WlGERYjssclGN6 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T18:55:07Z
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@joshuagrochow @maikel @academicchatter Centralization is often an emergent property. You can't really guarantee it with a protocol. Ideally such huge instances would not be allowed to exist.
(DIR) Post #AaR41fahZdZCGx4fHk by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:00:42Z
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@joshuafoust @joshuagrochow @academicchatter The software is released under the AGPL, which is a free software license. This means that if the copyright owners decide to take it in one direction, everyone can decide for themselves not to follow.It's always like this with free software. The copyright owners cannot control the use and modification of the software.
(DIR) Post #AaR5NUaNGuGsSttHnd by dameoutlaw@mstdn.social
2023-10-04T19:15:49Z
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@tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch This is the problem I have with the argument against qts and that existed for full-text search. There are Fediverse platforms/instances that have had both of these features for quite some time. I have not heard of an uptick in abuse due to those features.I also, have yet to come across anyone against the actual tool that has caused the most harm on Mastodon and that is PM
(DIR) Post #AaR65W70xQu7wP9O3U by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:23:48Z
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@dameoutlaw @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch It's the typical conflation of correlation and causation. People get the impression that there's less toxic behavior on mastodon than twitter, and since there are no quotes and search here they attribute this as the cause.This is wrong by itself, but as you point out, not even the correlation exists when you look at the broader fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AaR7OQoMzQ0IxQ0q1o by dameoutlaw@mstdn.social
2023-10-04T19:38:24Z
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@tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Another thing is bluesky has over a million accounts and it has QTs. I’ve been there just a few weeks after launch and the issues that have arrived were not due to QTs
(DIR) Post #AaR88ugCGxtsueM0PY by RandomDamage@infosec.exchange
2023-10-04T19:46:50Z
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@tiago @academicchatter by "the ordered timeline" are you suggesting that people actually like getting posts suggested to them in an order determined by an algorithm that they can't access instead of simple chronological order?
(DIR) Post #AaR89RKMt930AVOXT6 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:46:56Z
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@joshuafoust @joshuagrochow @academicchatter I repeat, I was talking about the standardized protocol, and the network itself.
(DIR) Post #AaR8Div3QOqpt1b4wS by thomasfuchs@hachyderm.io
2023-10-04T19:47:38Z
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@tiago @academicchatter @vicgrinberg I’ve been trying to tell the project maintainers for years (it also affects other groups), but there seems to be too much inertia.
(DIR) Post #AaR8JqhNPjhRke7WNc by SamCrawley@sciences.social
2023-10-04T18:50:25Z
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@TEG @tiago @academicchatter This is a much bigger limitation than lack of quotes to me. I feel like I have to work really hard to understand what's going on in my feed because everything's always happening backwards. I think instead of "algorithmic feeds" we should just call it "more sorting options".My feeling is there is enough content for many communities here, it's just often really hard to find it.
(DIR) Post #AaR8JrJf7OKBfO263U by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T18:53:38Z
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@SamCrawley @TEG @tiago @academicchatter Although I prefer a chronological timeline myself here is what "Mammoth" is testing w/r/t personalized timelines: https://mammoth.writeas.com/introducing-personalized-for-you
(DIR) Post #AaR8Js5AGmK22iG264 by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T19:43:53Z
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@SamCrawley @TEG @tiago @academicchatter A list of 41 studies with data about quote-tweets: 🌐https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2023/01/12/quote-tweeting-over-30-studies-dispel-some-myths/#list⭐ If quote-tweets become available on Mastodon I will add them to our instance but only if they are offered on an opt-in basis.[Edit: crediting the author of the linked-to blog post:@hildabast ]
(DIR) Post #AaR8Jsnpai3EHF9hia by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:48:45Z
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@crecente @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter Show me *one* study from that list that convincingly shows that quote tweets cause toxicity or some other adverse effect.
(DIR) Post #AaR8P82yLCGv0JjswK by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T19:49:45Z
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@tiago @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter Feel free to read those articles and let us know!
(DIR) Post #AaR8aWdDHCkoRA7nRg by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2023-10-04T19:51:46Z
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@LukasBrausch @UlrikeHahn @boud @tiago @academicchatter There are more design choices than a simple yes/no. If Yes, then how? E.g. text above or below quote.
(DIR) Post #AaR8fUffzZjTnze72u by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:52:44Z
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@RandomDamage @academicchatter Not in the slightest.But on mastodon we could have a timeline ordered by an algorithm that we understand and control, and have the option to turn on and off.If I step away for a day or two, I should be able to check which were the most popular posts of the last 24h, for example, instead of missing them forever. What's wrong with that?
(DIR) Post #AaR8ly4haD1AjjRGE4 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:53:53Z
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@crecente @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter Since you are the one claiming that quotes are bad, the burden is on you to prove it.
(DIR) Post #AaR8tkZXfY5DAxZhDM by RandomDamage@infosec.exchange
2023-10-04T19:55:17Z
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@tiago @academicchatter that seems like something that could be handled client-side with the existing server platformOf course that wouldn't make it available to people using the web interface (like me), but it should be a feature that could be provided without much political wrangling otherwise
(DIR) Post #AaR8ueVvgAT2fyJbMG by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:55:28Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @LukasBrausch @UlrikeHahn @boud @academicchatter I don't care. If people do, make it a configurable option.
(DIR) Post #AaR9EQAMjXgby7egxU by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T19:59:02Z
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@RandomDamage @academicchatter I agree. These are very simple functionalities.The only reason they don't exist is that upstream objects to it.
(DIR) Post #AaR9GlOYmACGO8PZiK by jjsylvia@mastodon.social
2023-10-04T19:59:23Z
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@tiago @crecente @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter I just skimmed the blog post itself, which in summarizing the articles seems to suggest there is limited, if any evidence that QTs cause harm.
(DIR) Post #AaR9MHHzcc9ckny9xY by RandomDamage@infosec.exchange
2023-10-04T20:00:28Z
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@tiago @academicchatter that definitely applies to the web client, but there are other groups working on dedicated clients (mostly for mobile AFAIK) that can implement client side features independently
(DIR) Post #AaR9XFC9kRWtRcT6Gm by gpollara@med-mastodon.com
2023-10-04T20:02:24Z
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@tiago @academicchatter could i ask for the evidence for academic mindshare going to Bluesky please?
(DIR) Post #AaR9Z7uTnxuRQg68Se by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T20:02:48Z
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@jjsylvia @crecente @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter Precisely. This was of my point. I wanted to see if Drew would actually read his own sources. There are simply no data suggesting that quotes cause any problem.
(DIR) Post #AaR9b4mWPIRKJ2IzM8 by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T20:03:06Z
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@tiago @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter 😞 You have misunderstood.I have not said that quotes are, per se, bad. ⭐ What I have said is that some people absolutely do not want them. And I said I think we should request for their consent before forcing them to use them.🎓 Don't believe everything you read.🎮 On a related topic: later this month the NGO I work with is publishing the first of a series of free video games that teach and encourage the use of critical thinking.❤️ Follow @CriticalThinkingGames for updates!#CriticalThinking #VideoGames #ProSocial #PublicHealth #Consent
(DIR) Post #AaR9eP4NQv7k64F9mq by joshuagrochow@mathstodon.xyz
2023-10-04T20:03:43Z
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@tiago @academicchatter As far as I can tell, their plan, as they outline on their blog, has always been an open protocol and federation. My understanding is that the AT protocol on which bluesky is based is *designed* for federation, they're just choosing not to federate yet during this part of their beta period.
(DIR) Post #AaR9tqJMQok4vfc8VU by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T20:06:31Z
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@joshuagrochow @academicchatter I've read the plans, the blog, the protocol specifications, etc. Tried in vain if I could run my own instance, even if in a makeshift way.Honestly, I'll believe it when I see it.Until there's actual code, it's just vaporware as far as I'm concerned.
(DIR) Post #AaRAOfPozYOQ76KmOG by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T20:12:05Z
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@crecente @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter @CriticalThinkingGames You have it completely backwards.If I'm prevented to link to a public post on the internet, it's their preference that is being imposed on me, not the other way around.By linking to a public post, I'm not imposing anything on anyone. It was their choice to publish something on the open internet. They didn't have to do it.If you post something on the web, it's not a reasonable expectation that people will not link to it.For the same reason you cannot expect privacy if you are discussing outloud about private matters in a public space.
(DIR) Post #AaRBjFp1RWlWlvVCVM by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T20:26:59Z
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@tiago @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter @CriticalThinkingGames You seem to agree that I have not said quotes are, per se, bad.But it seems you disagree with my support for those who don't want their content to be used without their explicit consent.Although what you say about reasonableness and speech in a public forum is true, that does not mean we should simply ignore others' wishes.Because:1️⃣ By making such a feature opt-in we are more likely to see this feature offered because fewer users will object.2️⃣ If the feature is mandatory on everybody's account some people will stop posting publicly or just abandon the platform.3️⃣ Acting with consent is good policy.#Consent
(DIR) Post #AaRDa6cUUEunXBPF7A by alx@mastodon.design
2023-10-04T20:47:44Z
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@tiago @jwildeboer @academicchatter I found a vibrant academic community. From hard sciences to social sciences, from arts and humanities to engineering, there's plenty of academics happily sharing their research and engaging in conversations. Maybe the superstars aren't here because they prefer a broadcast medium that promote them, but it isn't true that the academic community isn't represented here. Moreover, there's exclusive rule, you can be on both the Fedi & Bluesky and enjoy both.
(DIR) Post #AaREkjpHfnkhyr1XjE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:00:54Z
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@crecente @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter @CriticalThinkingGames Look, you can't have it both ways.If you want to argue for a social norm — like being polite — then argue for that.But people should have the individual freedom not to follow it.This is the difference between a social norm and a law.But you cannot at the same time argue for a social norm and an *imposition* via a constraint in the software interface. That is not a social norm, is it?It is not a *social* norm on mastodon not to quote posts, it's a normative *imposition*, enforced from the top down on everyone.If you believe it's good manners to ask for consent before linking, then ask for consent.But if you think it should not be a law, then you have to be open to the possibility of people linking without consent.And since it cannot be a law because of it's utter impracticality, as well as complete incongruity with making information public in the first place, it becomes a moot point.Wishes should only be respected if they are reasonable.(BTW you assume people will go away if quotes are allowed, but somehow insist that you don't think quotes are bad. But anyway, I think it's precisely the opposite: linking is useful, and will attract more people to the platform.)
(DIR) Post #AaRFIzmYr5cNJU5MMy by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:07:06Z
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@alx @jwildeboer @academicchatter I don't dispute any of this, but I do think it's true that many academics (not superstars) are preferring bluesky over mastodon.Also, there's something attractive about a huge social network like twitter with hundreds of millions of users. It's there where the global conversation take place — with the garbage and all. It's important for scientists to participate in it.Some new platform may take twitter's place.I would like for this platform to be decentralized, federated, owned by no one.It bugs me that mastodon may not be up for the task.
(DIR) Post #AaRFraVMpNNz3JXPs0 by argentum@hachyderm.io
2023-10-04T21:13:20Z
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@tiago could you please stop including the academicchatter account in the replies?Thanks
(DIR) Post #AaRGB2Cy3HFgTUCkcq by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:16:50Z
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@argentum “Mute conversation” is your friend.
(DIR) Post #AaRGJy1Qz7Cg694MYy by alx@mastodon.design
2023-10-04T21:18:27Z
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@tiago @jwildeboer @academicchatter interesting that you are ascribing agency to the platform, instead to academics. Building communities, online or offline, is people’s responsibility, online platforms are just enablers. Your entire discussion is a patronising rant that reduce behavioural choices to design features, as if the sole responsible of academics choosing Bluesky over the Fediverse is Mastodon design team. That’s not only wrong, but also ignores a very vibrant academic community here.
(DIR) Post #AaRGifCM6mdIxMxCds by argentum@hachyderm.io
2023-10-04T21:22:55Z
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@tiago your personal opinion about the ideal Mastodon seems pretty off topic for the group, it would be nice if you stopped using reply all not just for my benefit
(DIR) Post #AaRGttu1mJ7LkMjuLI by argentum@hachyderm.io
2023-10-04T21:24:58Z
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@tiago also no mute conversation in my app, can’t say I didn’t try
(DIR) Post #AaRHXVgpDjrwEdS2k4 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:32:06Z
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@alx @jwildeboer @academicchatter I write “I can't help but think this has to do with”, and you read “the sole responsibility of academics choosing Bluesky over the Fediverse is Mastodon design team.”Not really a good faith effort on your part.It's not a “behavioral choice” on this platform not to quote posts or sort the timeline. We don't have this option at all.Design choices have impact on adoption. It makes sense to question if these design choices are good and worth the costs.In fact, I don't think these particular choices are good to begin with, even if there were no costs.
(DIR) Post #AaRHqD8uOzzUDMVKvQ by jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net
2023-10-04T21:35:19Z
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@tiago @alx @academicchatter You are still reducing the discussion to the way Mastodon has implemented ActivityPub. Quote posts exist in the Fediverse outside of Mastodon. And I simply don’t buy the implied argument that quote posts are annimportant reason for academics to shy away from the fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AaRHr6st9kRz5tRKjI by lance@mastodon.social
2023-10-04T21:22:13Z
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@vbuendiar @tiago @LukasBrausch @academicchatter If you quote tweet someone, they'll assume bad intent quite literally no matter the content or what you say. The quote tweet is a clear failure. The only reason it's used is because there's no alternative. There has to be a non-rage-inducing way to quote.I think you're too dismissive of the costs of copying the quote tweet.
(DIR) Post #AaRHr7v3JBm8ItSZk0 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:35:40Z
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@lance @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch What an absurd thing to say.If I cite someone praising them, they have to be an idiot to get mad.You must come from an alternate universe where linking to a post induces rage on someone.
(DIR) Post #AaRHxWkTuED534ZEsi by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:36:49Z
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@jwildeboer @alx @academicchatter I completely agree with you, I'm talking about Mastodon, not the fediverse as a whole.
(DIR) Post #AaRHyXMD83EHE2hFIW by alx@mastodon.design
2023-10-04T21:37:01Z
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@tiago @jwildeboer @academicchatter I think the only one here not making any effort is you, keeping patronising designers and again confusing agency as a matter of design, not as a matter of social dynamics. You keep asking for evidence why you're the first confusing your perception as stats, as, while it might be true that the academic community is scattering, there's been an academic community here far before the Twitter collapse. Stop giving design lessons to designers.
(DIR) Post #AaRIPLS1VJPU7MCM6K by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-04T21:41:49Z
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@tiago @SamCrawley @TEG @academicchatter @CriticalThinkingGames Life is nuance & compromise. We do not have to adhere to an "everything or nothing" worldview.The pragmatic solution for quote tweets is to offer it as opt-in.Looking at this pragmatically allows us to avoid the thorny social / cultural issues. There is no downside to offering the feature as an option rather than making it mandatory. - - -We are unlikely to make any headway if we shift to laws and social norms.The work I do involves the impact of social norms on public health and designing solutions to overcome / change those that are unhealthy. It also involves issues around law, technology, privacy rights, public policy, and consent.Philosophical conversations about these will be frustrating.Similarly, I should not be presenting you with data structure arguments based on my business school courses. We aren't starting from the same baseline. I will get so much wrong you won't know how best to respond.
(DIR) Post #AaRJcFKped2crsYBdo by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T21:55:21Z
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@argentum Sure, I'll remove from now on. But it's unlikely that everyone else responding will.
(DIR) Post #AaRKQJucuU13XlAbNQ by lance@mastodon.social
2023-10-04T22:04:26Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch We clearly operated in different parts of Twitter if you didn't see the negative side of quote tweets.
(DIR) Post #AaRL3stiljozLIc11k by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-04T22:11:35Z
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@lance @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Not quite. But do you honestly believe it's the quote functionality that causes people to behave negatively? What could possibly be the mechanism for that?
(DIR) Post #AaRM6b8JNFLv4MIJm4 by lance@mastodon.social
2023-10-04T22:23:16Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Of course it's the quote functionality. You're cutting the person that tweeted out of the conversation, and instead you're putting the tweet on display for you and your followers to mock.Consider an alternative where your reply shows to your followers in the format-- original post ---- your response --That's just you replying to someone else but with greater visibility and some context.
(DIR) Post #AaRgl6smkOGoCncwwi by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-05T02:14:41Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter interesting allocation of burden of proof….I don’t really see a cogent reason for why the burden should be on those not wanting QT, particularly as they are actually the people who put in the effort and built the platform( I don’t have any role in this, let alone a burden of proof…I’m not designing anything)
(DIR) Post #AaRwOVkli90Zwl7iL2 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T05:09:54Z
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@UlrikeHahn @boud @LukasBrauschThe cogent reason is as follows.The developers are free to do as they want with the software they code, and they don't owe any explanations to anyone.But to the extent they care about what the community thinks, and to the extent they feel any responsibility for the functioning of a platform with millions of people and and its relation to a larger ecosystem (the fediverse and the internet at large) their design choices should be justified, not only to themselves but to the users.
(DIR) Post #AaS8wBY95w1SdktstE by mtcerio@mastodon.social
2023-10-05T07:30:24Z
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@tiago @academicchatter Haven't used Blue sky but I tend to agree the ordered timeline does not quite work for me. Either I keep checking every minute, or some posts are lost down in the timeline for good. I am not interested in posts from now, I am interested in recent posts about topics I like.
(DIR) Post #AaS9eejpvwXFuOZeNc by wrigleyfield@fediscience.org
2023-10-05T07:37:34Z
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@perspektivbrocken @tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch I really want mastodon to succeed but my own engagement here would be much, much higher with a version of quote-posting and with the ability to find posts on topics of interest
(DIR) Post #AaS9zq5Ax2lZAnejQm by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-05T07:42:19Z
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@tiago icecubesapp already does this, but I don’t think a pure client-side solution is going to cut it. A quote-boost shouldn’t change, for instance, when the original quoted post changes, right? @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
(DIR) Post #AaSAOopoj9ryXjNq2y by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T07:46:51Z
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@philippsteinkrueger @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch That's a good question, and introduces a distinction between an actual quote and a link that's displayed inline.I'd be happy with inline links as a starting point.
(DIR) Post #AaSHLkjwC8XCea7PGq by luca@sironi.tk
2023-10-05T08:48:19.699856Z
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@wrigleyfield @perspektivbrocken @tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch at first, the missing of QT seemed strange to me but, after reading the reasons behind, i easily took the habit of just commenting on the thread and boosting it.Bring attention to the topic, not to my performance.Now i do that way also on X.By the way, if needed, you can put whatever internet link on your post, so also a link on a mastodon post.https://fediscience.org/@wrigleyfield/111181263940509826
(DIR) Post #AaSHLm8R0XiwyqaU5o by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T09:04:42Z
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@luca @vbuendiar @wrigleyfield @crecente @LukasBrausch @perspektivbrocken Of course I know you can post URLs. You're missing the point completely.The problem is that URLs to posts are not displayed inline, and when you click on them, it takes you out of your app (on most apps).So if you want to reference what someone else said in some conversation — it has nothing to do with “performance” — this becomes an obstacle.
(DIR) Post #AaSHPmV1ax9RGj41jc by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-05T09:05:25Z
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@tiago That would solve the problem for you if you read other people's quote-boosts, for sure. But if you quote boost yourself, you'll never know how people will see it. Better imo to establish them properly server-side...And the Mastodon developers have already in principle agreed to do it. What bugs me is how long things take. I bet we won't see quote-boost before 2025, and then probably opt-in... 🙄 @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
(DIR) Post #AaSHUWzKh05IbrVNnE by felwert@mstdn.social
2023-10-05T08:15:19Z
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@mtcerio @tiago @academicchatter I know external tools are not the same as something baked into the app, but in the meantime, there's https://fediview.com/
(DIR) Post #AaSHUY9INReED3Aqxc by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T09:06:18Z
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@felwert @mtcerio @academicchatter I use https://github.com/hodgesmr/mastodon_digest, but it's a bit cumbersome and limited.
(DIR) Post #AaSHph6SHTLi3svb2u by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T09:10:05Z
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@philippsteinkrueger @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch I understand, but you know, baby steps. A client side solution would remove part of the annoyance.Development is taking long probably because they are trying to figure out a way to make it as least effective as possible. It's like developing decaffeinated coffee is more complicated than just making coffee. And the result is not compelling for most people.
(DIR) Post #AaSHuBKZpvpOyBfnea by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-05T09:10:54Z
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@tiago No doubt...@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
(DIR) Post #AaSHwfQwt0QeuXq3xw by luca@sironi.tk
2023-10-05T09:09:26.597893Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @wrigleyfield @crecente @LukasBrausch @perspektivbrocken sorry about that, my mistake, i thought also mastodon did an inline render, like some other fediverse server software do.
(DIR) Post #AaSHwg9GEFsH7yZS2C by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T09:11:20Z
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@luca @vbuendiar @wrigleyfield @crecente @LukasBrausch @perspektivbrocken Indeed, it's such an obvious feature, it's surprising it's not there.
(DIR) Post #AaSLWh4EabmAGV5IlE by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-05T09:51:28Z
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@tiago Another option then is maybe firefish. That has quote posts and you can still follow everyone on mastodon. I'm seriously considering it, also to send a message to mastodon devs.@ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
(DIR) Post #AaSMaSdeHFaOcy0eUS by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T10:03:23Z
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@philippsteinkrueger @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch I have to get familiar with firefish.But the problem with social networks is that they need to have a critical mass. This was the problem with mastodon for a long time.You can follow people from mastodon, but will they see your quotes, for example?
(DIR) Post #AaSMlJFTWr8OgssLkO by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-05T10:05:10Z
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@tiago No, they won't. That's why it's similar to the client-side solution. @ChrisWilms23 @crecente @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch
(DIR) Post #AaShK34VfEyzjnaZKC by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-05T13:55:41Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch but they have justified them, over and over. You just don’t agree….
(DIR) Post #AaSiOBvmldkMKK30aW by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T14:07:42Z
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@UlrikeHahn @boud @LukasBrausch Exactly. I think the justification is invalid, since there's no evidence of what they claim. What's so difficult about this?
(DIR) Post #AaSwkV7NVgIdYz0BhQ by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-05T16:48:34Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch A provides reason …B thinks reason isn’t cogentwhat now? depends on whether there is a burden of proof carried by A….what we are discussing is whether A *should* carry the burden of proof.That must be determined on grounds *other* than considerations of the reasons they gave for the claim itself (which are relevant for whether the burden has been met, if in fact it exists, not whether it exists in the first place).
(DIR) Post #AaSzOfhRmojzsE9hyq by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-05T16:54:52Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch I asked why the burden of proof should lie with those against QT- in response, you said developers should justify their choices, I replied they have, you replied that their justification is insufficient. Even if we were to hypothetical take that assessment as read, that doesn’t address the underlying (consequence governing) issue of ‘who holds the burden of proof’.
(DIR) Post #AaSzOgTetZJ0HkiD7w by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T17:18:14Z
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@UlrikeHahn @boud @LukasBrausch This is so incredibly silly.They say it causes harm without offering any evidence.Why should the burden of proof be on me to offer evidence that it *doesn't* cause harm?Positive and negative evidence are not symmetric.Those proposing an hypothesis carry the burden of proof. It's not the rest of the world that are required to disprove it.
(DIR) Post #AaTBAYl0097fjkr1hw by zabow@mastodon.bida.im
2023-10-05T19:30:03Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch I disagree. Every technology, be it nuclear energy or quotes on a network, have a final net impact, they're never "neutral". Just beacuse we don't know how to compute the integral it doesn't mean the net result is zero.I think that Mastodon and the fedi in general are MUCH more livable than the well known equivalent for several reasons and there's at least correlation with the absence of certain features.Quoting, IMHO, goes in the direction of broadcasting rather than that of dialogue among equal peers. And often academics want exactly that: a pulpit from which to talk to the masses.Blocking is like opting out of something, I prefer a technology with more friction, but with safety built-in.
(DIR) Post #AaTEKM2QRcqN33Mqga by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T20:05:32Z
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@zabow @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch First of all, of course features can have a neutral or negligible effect. It's ridiculous to claim that every aspect of a platform must have a measurable effect on discourse quality.Secondly, the correlation of supposed discourse quality with things like lack of quotes means absolutely nothing. One could make the same argument about the choice of logo or some other obviously neutral aspect.A much more likely explanation for the difference of discourse is that one platform has 300 million users, while the other has 10.
(DIR) Post #AaTFYMyTrN4PxclkMi by zabow@mastodon.bida.im
2023-10-05T20:19:13Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch CO2 is 0.04% of air, you could hardly suspect it's our main problem today if you were an alien scientist. I have no idea which features have a bad impact on discourse quality here, but I would be very careful to touch seemingly innocent aspects of something that's been working so spectacularly better than what we had before.
(DIR) Post #AaTGNFyvcP4f2eF9aS by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-05T20:28:28Z
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@zabow @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Do you honestly believe that the reason why people behave supposedly better here is because of the inability to link to other posts? It's such a bizarre opinion.If the supposed quality of the platform is so sensitive to seemingly superficial aspects such as an inability to view inline links to other post, then it's a matter of time before the whole thing collapses. The rest of the fediverse already implements these features, and soon enough more apps will do it to — because a lot of people want them, and user wishes cannot be ignored for long in a free software context.Also, not all aspects of Mastodon are better than twitter. Finding relevant content is more difficult. Reaching certain people is also not possible. There are whole communities that are not here.Many academics are preferring Bluesky.So, I don't share your overt enthusiasm.
(DIR) Post #AaTHM7B6xpfbP1xets by zabow@mastodon.bida.im
2023-10-05T20:39:26Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Don't get me wrong, it could be that no single feature is responsible. I agree with you that size is more likely. Personally I think that the clustered structure of small interconnected bubbles is its main difference and its main limit (for certain uses).Self-selection of like-minded people is another element: if almost everybody here didn't like x, they surely share some common world view.My start here was "academic use" then I realized that academics generally produce a toxic and too competitive environment just like journalists and celebrities. So I discovered that the true strength of this place is to make new friends and get the best part of what people have to offer. Not racing to win online arguments to show the world you're the best.
(DIR) Post #AaTbVYdaErnCFu3icK by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-06T00:25:16Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch the issue isn’t some ill-defined epistemic burden of proof (ie what to believe in the absence of sufficient evidence)- for one, we can simply (plausibly) say “we don’t know whether QTs cause harm”, so I think it’s misguided to argue (as you seemingly want to) that *in the absence of evidence* we should BELIEVE QTs do no harm (which is what your BoP boils down to).Rather the burden of proof is about *what to do*, given a state of knowledge 1/
(DIR) Post #AaTbVaRFXh7BqEItfc by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-06T00:25:17Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch 2/ and for that there are any number of grounds to argue that the burden of proof rests with those seeking change, for example…maybe this clarifies things: https://write.as/ulrikehahn/scrutinising-popular-arguments-for-quote-tweets-on-mastodon-an-argumentation
(DIR) Post #AaTd3FMiUwaMHgnWXA by robin@mastodon.social
2023-10-06T00:42:34Z
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@tiago @academicchatter Bluesky feeds are also used a lot for academics to anchor communities.I agree that QTs are a major limit for quality discourse, you can't boost and add. Another thing that doesn't help is the mansplaining culture on Mastodon.That said, I'm not convinced that AP federation has stronger decent properties. It's basically email and email is captured. So it might not be a major issue?
(DIR) Post #AaTfjnwuVT47cB9EYa by ml@ecoevo.social
2023-10-06T01:12:39Z
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@tiago @academicchatter You absolutely can quote here. I do it all the time.I think part of what is to blame here is (a) too many academics willing to look the other way at fash & fash-adjacent tech lords like Musk and Dorsey, and (b) an unwillingness to put the time in to build community. Twitter once upon a time did not have many academics on it. It's those of us who put the time in that created a space for others to piggyback off of.People can't piggyback here - they have to help build.
(DIR) Post #AaTwaWp2Vskj6wd3XE by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T04:21:29Z
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@UlrikeHahn @boud @LukasBrausch The contortions you go through to avoid a common sense argument are astounding.In the absence of evidence that an utterly commonplace feature of the web since time immemorial — an inline hyperlink / quote feature — present also in every non-twitter social media & forum platform you can think of *except* mastodon (including the rest of the fediverse) somehow inherently causes harm, despite negative evidence in the form of numerous counterexamples, no attempt at any mechanistic explanation, much more plausible alternative explanations as to why the discourse in here is perceived as being different than in twitter, then yes, those making the claim carry the burden of proof.In fact, the claim is so weak that the devs themselves have already conceded, and announced that some form of the feature will be implemented. The remaining questions are how usable it will be, and when it will be available.
(DIR) Post #AaTxLLo1I1qgYRTjU0 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T04:29:58Z
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@robin @academicchatter AP federation is real, functional, standardized, and not controlled by any single entity. You can't say that about bluesky.
(DIR) Post #AaTxh4MGq912oRr5k0 by Grizzlysgrowls@twit.social
2023-10-06T04:33:50Z
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@tiago @robin @academicchatter We also don't know how soon Bluesky is liable to be bought by That Other Fella.
(DIR) Post #AaTxqUi6EVTn9GYlqS by ml@ecoevo.social
2023-10-06T01:13:52Z
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@tiago @academicchatter Here's me quoting my own thread (but you can quote other people's threads, too). How it displays depends on the Mastodon version your instance is running. #AcademicChatter #Planticipation https://ecoevo.social/@ml/111178748324359310
(DIR) Post #AaTxqVOdgLVVHCSk9Q by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T04:35:35Z
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@ml @academicchatter Of course I know you can do that, but it doesn't work property. On the web interface these links are treated as regular external links. There is no usable inline preview, and if I click on it it takes me out of my instance.It's a really simple feature just to embed the content inline and follow it in the same instance.Some apps already do just that.
(DIR) Post #AaTy9JR6NGIHgUaAs4 by asayakkara@mas.to
2023-10-06T01:37:07Z
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@ml @tiago @academicchatter This is how I see it on "Tusky" app on Android.
(DIR) Post #AaTy9K8hl9Ajriyzpo by ml@ecoevo.social
2023-10-06T01:51:38Z
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@asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter Yup, it's different, but it's not blocking folks from going and seeing the rest of what's being quoted.
(DIR) Post #AaTy9KxOifioOwhTqi by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T04:38:58Z
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@ml @asayakkara @academicchatter It's super inconvenient to have to click to read and be thrown out of the site you're on. It's bad UI.Would it really cause harm to display these inline and load them in the same instance if I click on it?
(DIR) Post #AaTyN8GQhzyJ5ZBFia by asayakkara@mas.to
2023-10-06T02:37:37Z
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@ml @tiago @academicchatter I think, those who are asking for a quoting feature are not happy that the original tooter is not notified about being quoted/linked in this way.
(DIR) Post #AaTyN96tYvwHiHj9Um by ml@ecoevo.social
2023-10-06T02:44:32Z
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@asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter That's different than mere ability to quote, then.The fact is that if someone screenshots someone's toot and uses it, they won't be notified of that, either. And that happens frequently on all social media platforms I know of.Are you saying what they're more concerned about is their metrics? Academia has really done a lot to encourage in researchers a Pavlovian response to numbers that supposedly measure people's importance and relevance.
(DIR) Post #AaTyN9tod34SA0cDkO by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T04:41:27Z
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@ml @asayakkara @academicchatter I personally don't care about notifications at all. I just want the ability to organically reference other posts.
(DIR) Post #AaU1VV69zjFa5U3iJE by asayakkara@mas.to
2023-10-06T05:16:35Z
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@tiago @academicchatter On "Tusky" app, when I click on that quote/link toot of @ml, it opens the original toot just like how Twitter app would open a quote tweet; I don't notice that the original toot is coming from an entirely different server. It's a client side feature, and we have plenty of client apps to choose from. The default Mastodon web interface is just one option.That's the beauty of this whole thing, in my view.Anyway, I spent too much time on this point. Have a nice day 😊
(DIR) Post #AaU1yhzN9AswSroMeu by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T05:21:54Z
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@asayakkara @academicchatter @ml Tusky is doing a better job than the standard app (and according to some, doing more harm!).Problem is, if I post a link, I don't have the guarantee it will be easily visible to everyone.
(DIR) Post #AaUFWpzNCyfEWgPrHs by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-10-06T07:53:41Z
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@tiago @UlrikeHahn @LukasBrausch "The contortions you go through to avoid a common sense argument are astounding."That sentence is a violation of WP:AGF [2]. While WP:AGF is not an official Fediverse guideline, it's an academic norm (not original to Wikipedia), and makes sense, especially in a context where parts of the thread are cc'd to @academicchatter . WP:AGF violations are distracting from the actual arguments and evidence.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:AGF
(DIR) Post #AaUKExsXdR25YQW9DM by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T08:46:28Z
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@boud @UlrikeHahn @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I'm not assuming bad faith, but this kind of petty, hall monitor style, speech policing is one of the most insufferable things ever.
(DIR) Post #AaUYeNmlqjNEV7pgYa by robotistry@sciencemastodon.com
2023-10-06T11:27:58Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I don't understand what you are prevented from doing.You've identified two problems: how linked toots are displayed and that you aren't notified of linked toots.The display problem is solved by choosing a different interface that shows linked posts the way you want.Not being notified of links does not equal being prevented from taking action.1/n
(DIR) Post #AaUcMVNbHB2Gepn3Dc by robotistry@sciencemastodon.com
2023-10-06T11:28:41Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatterThe notification problem arises because people use quotes for different purposes.For some, quoting is about starting a new conversation without derailing the initial conversation, and notifications would be helpful to point out that a new conversation has started.2/n
(DIR) Post #AaUcMWGXyszJPFUvrc by robotistry@sciencemastodon.com
2023-10-06T11:29:06Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatterFor others, quoting is talking about someone behind their back. In some of those cases, notifications would defeat the purpose. If you're going to gossip, the last person you want to know is the person you're gossiping about.In others, bullies weaponize the notifications mechanism, effectively forcing the victim to see the gossip.3/n
(DIR) Post #AaUcMX70poxI1y2pdo by robotistry@sciencemastodon.com
2023-10-06T11:30:23Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatterWhich says to me that we're conflating multiple functions: - quote-without-notification (link)- quote-with-notification (quote)- ability to block the use of quote-with-notification on one's own toots (anti-bullying)- policies to report/block users that misuse quote-with-notification (anti-bullying)4/4
(DIR) Post #AaUcMXtvtw5STgvttQ by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T12:09:30Z
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@robotistry @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I have no strong opinion about notification, this isn't to what I was referring.“The display problem is solved by choosing a different interface that shows linked posts the way you want.”This is theoretical, not an actual solution. Not only there are not many alternatives that do this well (none for the web AFAIK), but they are not useful if the majority of people are not using them, since otherwise they will not able to easily see what I link.
(DIR) Post #AaUlIG2RGvAzVSwRLk by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-06T13:46:31Z
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@ml @asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter If _ I _ quote someone it has some positive networking effects.-> I can show others the content without repeating it-> I can show others who wrote it (so they can follow; I can make him/her known better)-> others see how often it´s _originally_ quoted (same as above)-> quoting is an invitation for original poster into _my_ thread on this topic (main reason) or subsequent requoting/commenting _me_So it´s like this:
(DIR) Post #AaUoCvcY3YUyb4ywDo by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-06T13:51:23Z
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@ml @asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter So without quotings with feedback-options you lose the effect to discuss something with the original poster as well as with your followers (at one time) and you lose all the subsequent networking effects mentioned above.
(DIR) Post #AaUoCwTirr27FzrP6W by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-06T14:02:56Z
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@ml @asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter My original example (for the graph above) was this (below).On Mastodon I would have to write"Weiland commented on Bassanis take of......"Absolutely blind. Not where, not how exactly.So adding a link your follower know where Weiland wrote about Bassani. If Weiland is a good tooter he will add a link to Bassani.- Weiland still don´t know about my comment- Weilands follower can´t find my comment- Bassani and Followers are completely out
(DIR) Post #AaUoCxEA5CBDa1aUUK by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-06T14:20:01Z
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@ml @asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter With quotes you can use it like reddit for discussions. Jumping forward and backward in comments and subthreads.
(DIR) Post #AaUoCylWMeSULmCe7k by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T14:22:15Z
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@aloa5 @ml @asayakkara @academicchatter The mastodon designers are a strange mix of technologist and luddites. When it comes to designing modes of communication, they have only subtractions and no additions.
(DIR) Post #AaUpzqPYJXIQaEnAES by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-06T14:42:17Z
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@tiago @ml @asayakkara @academicchatter Perhaps they should start discussing topics in mastodon only. Maybe quotes and threads would be implemented within a week or two. 🤭
(DIR) Post #AaUwU5JU4Xl9DKkxfs by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-06T15:52:20Z
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@aloa5 Exactly. I often don't boost someone but instead make new post with the content of the original post (say a link to some website) because I want to give my own comment. With a quote feature, the original poster would know that someone engaged with their stuff, here it's like "nobody cares, so I might as well not waste my time anymore posting."@ml @asayakkara @tiago @academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AaUwU67761SThFyb20 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T15:55:02Z
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@philippsteinkrueger @aloa5 @ml @asayakkara @academicchatter It's amazing that in 2023 we have to argue in favor of *hyperlinks* on the web. We're going backwards.
(DIR) Post #AaV1vnssxx4R2QLsmG by robotistry@sciencemastodon.com
2023-10-06T16:56:02Z
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@tiago @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter And yet the people reading your posts have their own agency - they can choose to use an app or the web, and to choose what content they want to see, how they want that content displayed, and how they get to it. Even if you're sure the majority of your readers use the same interface you do, your readers' preferences aren't your responsibility to set.
(DIR) Post #AaV4KVsfEvFwLh9tUO by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T17:22:54Z
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@robotistry @davidjamesweir @asayakkara @boud @LukasBrausch @academicchatter I completely agree. But right now we all have very limited agency, since there are very few options available, none on the web.
(DIR) Post #AaVHfkDaQYQMIjOney by pkraus@berlin.social
2023-10-06T19:38:05Z
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@tiago @philippsteinkrueger @aloa5 @ml @asayakkara Real men don't attack straw men. You can post hyperlinks on here alright: https://social.skewed.de/@tiago/111188882391598159
(DIR) Post #AaVIEBtw0bsW0KdGa0 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-06T19:58:40Z
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@pkraus @philippsteinkrueger @aloa5 @ml @asayakkara You're missing the point, and jumping on a thread uninformed.Yes — believe or not — I know very well you can post URLs on mastodon.The issue that this link is treated just as any external link. The platform does not understand it's a link to a mastodon post. If you click on it on the web interface, it brings out of your instance. There's also no inline display.So, please don't be pedantic. What we're talking about is an integrated and organic way to link to posts.
(DIR) Post #AaW7yo2pcU63HsmMPQ by pkraus@berlin.social
2023-10-07T05:36:24Z
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@tiago @philippsteinkrueger @aloa5 @ml @asayakkara No, I don't think I'm missing the point. I'm also not uninformed, since you and everyone else in the replies, insist on @-ing the academicchatter bot, which I'd rather not mute. So, I had the pleasure of reading the whole thing, including some of your less coherent arguments. I invite you to do the same, as it's obvious some of the goalposts have moved out of the field into the parking lot by now.
(DIR) Post #AaW8cqmiqpZ9MxL3Wi by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T05:45:47Z
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@pkraus @philippsteinkrueger @aloa5 @ml @asayakkara You invite me to read my own arguments?If you really think we've been discussing the ability to post raw URLs at any point during this conversation, then either you have a serious reading comprehension problem, or you're the one building strawmen and attacking them.
(DIR) Post #AaWHSmEzn29hy4poS8 by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-07T07:24:46Z
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@tiago @pkraus @philippsteinkrueger @ml @asayakkara Meanwhile, just to show what is happening in Germany actually.
(DIR) Post #AaWNkLm5Wqusp14moK by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T08:35:14Z
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@aloa5 @pkraus @philippsteinkrueger @ml @asayakkara Historical opportunity squandered... As always progressive causes collapse due to incompetence and ideological zealotry.
(DIR) Post #AaWPvumNvEG2TsrCgC by aloa5@det.social
2023-10-07T08:59:43Z
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@tiago @pkraus @philippsteinkrueger @ml @asayakkara They´ve had enough time.
(DIR) Post #AaWUgvnCNA6J3AucsK by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2023-10-07T09:53:02Z
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@tiago @boud @LukasBrausch I do research on argumentation. Burdens of proof in argumentation are so interesting to me that I’ve written an entire paper on the topic. So your perceived “contortions” are my “interesting discussion” of the relative strength/cogency of a particular, popular argument for QTs (hence also the blog post). Apologies if my comments offended you.
(DIR) Post #AaWsHLqPHvC7DdkT1k by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T14:17:13Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch @academicchatter If you want to show support for a post, a boost does that already. If you want to engage with a post, replying does that already. If you want to talk about something you saw in a post, you can say "when people talk about such-and-such". The one use-case that makes quoting different is shitting on and piling on the post/poster. I'm not sure how it's neutral unless by "neutral" you mean that "tools have no feelings" or something inane like that.
(DIR) Post #AaWsRpomhW7D4pzLk0 by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T14:19:12Z
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@tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch It doesn't stop them, but it removes some of their power to be terrible.
(DIR) Post #AaWu8r1KCrrvDCvnk0 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T14:38:13Z
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@joshisanonymous @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch By how much? Is it measurable at all? Or just a feeling that you have?It removes some of our power to do great things as well. Is it worth it?All the people who think this is an important missing feature, are they all misguided fools?Even the mastodon devs have agreed to add it at some point. Are they wrong?
(DIR) Post #AaWujYrQgcJRbbo2Iy by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T14:44:51Z
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@tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch It would be measurable with the right data, but to my knowledge, no one has done so.Like I said, the "great things" can be accomplished without it.It is worth it.I never called anyone a fool, so no need to suggest that that's what I was implying.The Mastodon devs have been pretty clear on their distaste for it. That said, the devs are not automatically the ultimate bearers of what is true and good. Just look at "X" or Facebook, for example.
(DIR) Post #AaWuzvVuEPBuUmXgAq by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T14:47:47Z
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@joshisanonymous @vbuendiar @LukasBrauschI often want to quote my own posts, or point out what someone has said in a different context. It has nothing at all with dunking, and replying/boosting is not applicable.Quoting is something that exists in forums and social media outside of twitter for a long time, including in the rest of the fediverse. Attributing the atmosphere in twitter to quoting, or the atmosphere here to the lack thereof, is conflating correlation with causation.Quotes are obviously neutral for the same reason that replying is neutral. You can use it any way you want. It's up to the person using it, not the feature itself.
(DIR) Post #AaWvNatiX4u5VRxuSW by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T14:52:04Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Replying, boosting, and paraphrasing all work fine for what you're talking about. Again, the main use-case for quote-boosts is to shit on and pile on people.Quoting exists in forums, sure, but it's naïve to think that comparing forums to micro-blogging is a 1-to-1 comparison.I also didn't say that the atmospheres on X and Mastodon are different solely b/c of quoting, but that is a factor IMO.This is getting into "it's not the gun but the person" territory.
(DIR) Post #AaWwOoO1xykjaLHxIm by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T15:03:30Z
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How can you believe in a statement such as “quotes are inherently harmful” without any data to back it up? Why should anyone?Several studies tried to find evidence and came empty handed: https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2023/01/12/quote-tweeting-over-30-studies-dispel-some-myths/The idea that we should be content with paraphrasing people instead of linking to them is, quite honestly, pathetic.No, it does not “work fine” for a lot of people — and it's not up to you to tell them that it does.Your analogy with using guns is so crazy I won't comment on it.
(DIR) Post #AaWwXFOpPv9FgGgTei by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T15:05:04Z
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@joshisanonymous @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch How can you believe in a statement such as “quotes are inherently harmful” without any data to back it up? Why should anyone?Several studies tried to find evidence and came empty handed: https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2023/01/12/quote-tweeting-over-30-studies-dispel-some-myths/The idea that we should be content with paraphrasing people instead of linking to them is, quite honestly, pathetic.No, it does not “work fine” for a lot of people — and it's not up to you to tell them that it does.Your analogy with using guns is so crazy I won't comment on it.
(DIR) Post #AaWxWVN2eQQMsZ3gAK by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T15:16:04Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Believe it or not, personal experience & deductive reasoning are not automatically wrong or invalid when hard evidence is lacking.I've seen the linked post, & it's pretty far from conclusive. It doesn't cite any studies directly applicable to the question that don't also have obvious methodological issues.I'm not sure what you hate about paraphrasing.I didn't say I was deciding anything for others.You may not be a gun person, but the analogy is pertinent.
(DIR) Post #AaX5jRSNJVWc8cEUGu by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T14:24:40Z
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@wrigleyfield @perspektivbrocken @tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch I agree, engagement is higher with these tools. The problem is they were designed to increase engagement at any cost b/c those who devised them were driven by profits rather than providing a good experience. So they increase engagement, but it's not necessarily good engagement, and it also IMO increases very bad engagement. The reason Mastodon feels so much different is b/c you build your own island communities
(DIR) Post #AaX5jSFeMIwMbRHq4m by wrigleyfield@fediscience.org
2023-10-07T15:54:16Z
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@joshisanonymous @perspektivbrocken @tiago @crecente @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Respectfully, this response feels very condescending. I understand about monetized engagement; I also know that I had more genuinely interesting engagement & conversation on pre-Musk Twitter than I do here, & it’s not for lack of trying.And what I’ve always appreciated most abt social media is when it HASN’T just been isolated little islands. I understand your preferences may differ. (Do you understand mine might?)
(DIR) Post #AaX5jT0nX0ecxfLUZ6 by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-07T16:39:45Z
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@wrigleyfield @joshisanonymous @perspektivbrocken @tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch While it is helpful to understand different preferences it is also helpful to recognize people have had different experiences.Many people have had significantly negative experiences as a result of the way social media's engagement-tuned systems were designed. Even if I have not had many of those negative experiences I care that others have. And so: even if I would like to QuoteToot I respect that others do not consent to their content being used that way. Because: my desire for a preferred experience is not more important than others' reasonable expectation to avoid those things that have historically harmed them.It would be nice to have QuoteToots but only if users can opt-in to have their content used in that fashion. It appears this is the direction in which Mastodon proper is headed per https://mastodon.social/@Gargron as of Jan 2023.#Consent
(DIR) Post #AaX5jTn0dlDdNBtziC by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T16:47:58Z
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@crecente @wrigleyfield @joshisanonymous @perspektivbrocken @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch I'm sorry, but I find it *hilarious* that you had to add a *screenshot* of a post by @Gargron because you do not have the ability to properly quote it! 😂 Is this toxic behavior? No.Did you get consent from @Gargron ? No.Are you dunking on him? No.This is *obviously* a legitimate use case for a quote, and you inadvertently just gave an excellent example of why we need it.
(DIR) Post #AaX8fTSyCRwd4hJK5Y by crecente@games.ngo
2023-10-07T17:20:56Z
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@tiago @wrigleyfield @joshisanonymous @perspektivbrocken @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch It was not inadvertent. I showed that while it is not as effortless as QuoteTooting, a screenshot can provide the necessary functionality without including the toxic aspect.⭐ Importantly: in the absence of the toxic aspect, no consent was needed. I did the very thing that the system was designed to allow -- and for which he'd already consented.Here is another legitimate use case for a QuoteToot. In Gargron's case the screenshot was not necessary. But in this case it is, because it reveals an underlying point-of-view that is best conveyed by its source.
(DIR) Post #AaX91QN0OMr7qJzHFI by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T17:24:57Z
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@crecente @wrigleyfield @joshisanonymous @perspektivbrocken @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch How *on earth* is posting a screenshot “toxicity-proof”, but showing an inline link not?
(DIR) Post #AaX9W9Fm55zPjYFtxI by perspektivbrocken@social.tchncs.de
2023-10-07T17:30:28Z
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@tiagoa) As he could do what he wanted to do while quote tweets don't exist, it can certainly not be an example, that they are necessary. b) Does anybody in this discussion claim that there are no legitimate use cases for quote tweets at all? If so, I must have missed it. But from the fact that there are legitimate use cases for quote tweets does not follow neither that they are necessary nor that they are desirable all in all.@crecente
(DIR) Post #AaXAHlb7Kt5YGawd3w by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T17:39:00Z
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@tiago @crecente @wrigleyfield @perspektivbrocken @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Makes it more cumbersome to track down the post or poster and engage in toxic behavior. In fact, people quote this way on other services sometimes specifically to take the OP out of the conversation even when they could have used a built in quote feature.
(DIR) Post #AaXAZObbYhv6AcZx4K by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T17:42:16Z
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@perspektivbrocken @crecente Yes, @joshisanonymous claims that there are no legitimate uses for quotes at all. According to him, they have *only* negative effects. If could, I would have quoted him, but I can't, so look it up.The contortions that you guys make are so silly.This example proved the (obvious) necessity of making references other posts.Using screenshots is an anti-feature, since it removes the post from its context, can be easily faked, etc. Unlike actual quotes, screenshots are more easily used to spread misinformation.So, if there's need to make references, then a proper quote feature is in fact needed.
(DIR) Post #AaXAzQE0A23AinwtMG by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T17:47:00Z
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@joshisanonymous @crecente @wrigleyfield @perspektivbrocken @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch This is often a strategy to spread misinformation. It removes a post from its context, often completely altering its meaning. It is also easily manipulated. The reader has no easy way of verifying or uncovering for herself the surrounding information.Quoting via screenshots is often super sleazy.
(DIR) Post #AaXBRRcAaSTf8lcDgW by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T17:52:03Z
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@joshisanonymous @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch “I'm not sure what you hate about paraphrasing.”I don't think you are really trying to have a good faith argument.Paraphrasing is imprecise and almost always puts words in people's mouths.When referring to what people say and think, we should use their own words, not ours.It's amazing I have to explain this.(The link I showed cited *30* papers that considered the effects of quotes in quality discourse in some way or another. The fact that there's lack of evidence is precisely the point.)
(DIR) Post #AaXFVl5SWxheVYczdA by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T18:37:38Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Then copy-paste with quotation marks. The point was simply that you don't need quote-boosts to be able to achieve what you want to achieve.And yes, over 30 papers were cited in that article. How many dealt with what we're talking about (toxicity)? Five or so? How about pile ons? Zero.What's more, she suggested replies and hashtags were the main source of toxicity, and the former behaves very differently on X than on Mastodon, almost like QTs.
(DIR) Post #AaXGeVZDhdaqvyHgwq by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T18:50:27Z
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@joshisanonymous @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch “I don't understand how using quotation marks can be a problem.” — Joshua McNeillIt's amazing how hard you try to avoid such an obvious conclusion regarding this topic.And how do we use quotes or paraphrases to refer to the surrounding conversation? How do readers verify for themselves?The fact that you can't concede that having links to posts has an obvious usefulness in terms of following conversations, shows to me that you are not approaching this with any degree of common sense or good faith.Regarding the papers: Please understand that he burden is on you to prove that quotes are inherently harmful, not on the the rest of the world to prove otherwise. It doesn't matter how little you think of the evidence provided in those 30 papers (I could have provided a link to 1000, you would still not have accepted it), you still have not provided a single bit of evidence for your claim.
(DIR) Post #AaXHHyftPntaVHE4Zs by joshisanonymous@h4.io
2023-10-07T18:57:34Z
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@tiago @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch I don't know why you're trying so hard to make this devolve into personal insults, but if that's what you want, I'll just end by saying I'm really not the one being obtuse here or who's arguing in bad faith, whatever you think that means. What I'm gathering from all this is that you would be quoting me by now if this were X so that you could get people to harass me as you yourself are trying to do.
(DIR) Post #AaXHmJCrdvKgrx6wym by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-07T19:03:00Z
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@joshisanonymous @vbuendiar @LukasBrausch Well, if I wanted to quote you I could have used a screenshot, surely? I'm not sure where I have used personal insults.In order to be taken seriously, accusations of bad faith and being obtuse should come with some form of argument for them. It's easy to throw these around and run away.
(DIR) Post #AabPLwcqLiRLsPJ8j2 by Ailuridae@hachyderm.io
2023-10-09T18:46:45Z
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@tiago @academicchatter Ordered timeline is the correct way to do things. Lack of quote reblogs is absurd though, however some other servers have it
(DIR) Post #AabbKA4wYgPiTJMqmm by Ailuridae@hachyderm.io
2023-10-09T18:49:42Z
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@klauspforr @tiago @academicchatter ending up on too many different servers is not an issue, indeed it is a good thing. However if people *believe* that being on different servers is a problem, *that* itself could be a problem.
(DIR) Post #AabbKAyFF4eLEpF0z2 by klauspforr@sciences.social
2023-10-09T18:59:35Z
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@Ailuridae @tiago @academicchatter As I understand, the largest radius posts is the federated timeline. Considering that many economists went to econtwitter.net, sociologist and political scientists split between sciences.social and fedi.science (many of all three started out at mastodon.social or mastodon.world and stayed there), it is easy to miss posts and therefore unknown users on other instances. If everyone had used informative hashtags, this would be less of a problem, but people dont
(DIR) Post #AabbKBgCbdoNR9o7V2 by klauspforr@sciences.social
2023-10-09T19:05:35Z
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@Ailuridae @tiago @academicchatter mastodon is built to make difficult to stalk people which makes it also difficult to find people. i am definitely a newbie, am i wrong with this?
(DIR) Post #AabbKCSPiONNqgMce8 by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-09T19:15:13Z
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@klauspforr No, I think that's a good description. But even more important is to ask what the mechanisms are to accomplish this. And the answer on Mastodon is often: friction. Don't make it easy for people to do certain things, because if it's easy then the masses can be mobilizes to abuse them. Personally, I think Mastodon should put more trust in their moderation model instead. @Ailuridae @tiago @academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AabbKDH6fuvSNu56f2 by klauspforr@sciences.social
2023-10-09T19:38:13Z
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@philippsteinkrueger @Ailuridae @tiago @academicchatter Maybe that's the typical case of trying to get an answer by posting a falsehood. My impression was that the reason for the disengagement was that people didnt find each other across servers. However, you're pointing to the friction in simple message exchange (non-viralness) caused by the absence of algorithms. this is probably boring for people, which leads to less incentive to actively post stuff. two separate mechanisms. Wrong?
(DIR) Post #AabbKE5RelBwu1dJ7g by philippsteinkrueger@zirk.us
2023-10-09T20:11:02Z
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@klauspforr Personally, I think it's primarily a collective action problem: people don't come here because there's not enough people here. Regarding friction, the lack of algorithms could be cited as an example, but maybe the lack of quote boost is a better one. As I said earlier, I often don't boost because I can't quote, but instead make my own post. The original poster doesn't know their post engaged someone and that's a disincentive for more posts.@Ailuridae @tiago @academicchatter
(DIR) Post #AabbKEuUay1bSLW4gq by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-10-09T21:00:53Z
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@philippsteinkrueger @klauspforr @Ailuridae @academicchatter I've been here since 2018 and nothing fundamental has changed in these respects — it's all obviously on purpose.In some ways mastodon behaves very differently from other FLOSS projects.If this were a regular FLOSS project, by now there would have been a plugin ecosystem allowing instances to modify their experience in an open-ended way, customized forks, etc.But instead, the whole community is committed to stagnation and monoculture. There's an unusually high amount of *groupthink*.Potential hackers and tinkerers are paralyzed with fear from either peer pressure or the specter of toxic behavior, misinformation, and the boogie man — a.k.a. “the algorithm”.A free software community should not fear algorithms!We should understand and master them, with transparency, and putting users in the forefront.But when it comes to platform building and experimentation, Mastodon is the opposite of fun and vibrant. It's conservative to the extreme.