Post AaN1ynPD5NE76FMSQ4 by mike805@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by mike805@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AaMvsNpudhsOKrPUhM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:10:28Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
Interesting fact of the day: Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation **only** freed the southern slaves and kept the north slaves legal and enslaved. It was a sort "screw you to the south" more so than to abolish slavery.Lincoln only supported and pushed through the 13th amendment once slavery was voluntarily abolished at the state level first.#Slavery #History #USPol
(DIR) Post #AaMw5kKMKUDJr41V6u by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T19:12:56Z
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@freemo Looking at where the South stood when Lincoln won the election, they did the worst possible thing at the worst possible time.They were in the relatively powerful situation of: there is ONE THING the other guy desperately does not want you to do.They could have demanded anything else they wanted in exchange for merely not seceding. Constitutional right to slavery. Relief of the tariffs they were complaining about.They would have got 90% and could have come back for the other 10.
(DIR) Post #AaMw7WBHtcJkYmcoF6 by threalist@social.fbxl.net
2023-10-02T19:13:18.362749Z
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More fun facts:Four Union States allowed slavery when the war started.
(DIR) Post #AaMwMTEB9uRBkC6hwu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:15:56Z
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@threalist Yup, it was all the states that bordered the south but were in the north.Though technically you could argue after the emancipation proclimation (since the north is the legal recognized government) the north was the only region left with slaves after that moment..Of course the reality is more complex since southern states didnt recognize the authority. But at least from the perspective of the north, as the one true government, after that point slavery existed **only** in the north (legally).
(DIR) Post #AaMwaTTR2aOKYrv9Em by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T19:18:31Z
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@freemo @threalist Speaking of border states, one problem the South had was all the high tech industry was either in the North or in those border states that sided with the North.The Confederates built a big powder mill - one of their few industrial successes - and they had to confiscate a Northern made steam engine to make it go!They also wound up pulling railcars with horses because their steam locomotives were broken and they could not fix them.
(DIR) Post #AaMx6QdX7mXp1qsgVc by Phil@freeatlantis.com
2023-10-02T19:24:18Z
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@freemo 1. He didn't have the legal authority to unilaterally free slaves. He wasn't a dictator. He did it only in the south (where the vast majority of slaves were located) because they were in rebellion and had no means to challenge it. It was basically a psyop. 2. Presidents play NO role in constitutional amendments. The constitution assigns the power to congress and the states. The Senate passed it right away, when the House dithered, Lincoln stepped in and pushed and got it passed.
(DIR) Post #AaMxHbJzjrgTLw4Mlc by threalist@social.fbxl.net
2023-10-02T19:26:16.763074Z
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Speaking of things stacking the fight in one direction, the Union relied heavily on filling it's front lines with immigrants or their children:> 25% of the white men who served were immigrants, and further 25% were first-generation Americans
(DIR) Post #AaMxJm0qxZaT5f9UAq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:26:43Z
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@Phil While you are right, they arent a dictator, they do still play a leadership role and can use their veto power for laws (didnt need to be an amendment) for example...But yes he couldnt make the decision alone, he would have to simply promote a law or amendment, which he didnt even do that much at the time.
(DIR) Post #AaMxVdRWeEe9zEHfI8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:28:48Z
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@threalist Yea and similar the native americans (a group i am part of) were vastly abused by the north and sided mostly with the south.Usually the picture painted as the north as some hero for minorities and the south as a bunch of racists is a gross oversimplification... The truth is both sides were just racists fighting racists, as would be the case at that time in history when everything and everyone was racist.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AaMxbqIzjraDcGFmwi by threalist@social.fbxl.net
2023-10-02T19:29:58.440075Z
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Time for the evergreen Norm meme..
(DIR) Post #AaMxiqb53JvQY23MOG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:31:11Z
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@threalist Hahaha, spot on :)@mike805
(DIR) Post #AaMxolboVlZooaDczA by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T19:32:18Z
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@freemo @threalist Yes the Civil War was, like most wars, a battle between two forms of exploitation. The North practiced the modern interest and debt serfdom method, while the South took the old fashioned approach.The Northern approach made better use of technology.As far as I can tell there have been very few wars with an actual good guy involved, and those few had the good guy on defense.At best you have a bad guy versus a really horrible guy.
(DIR) Post #AaMxscG7DTEIyUuAqW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:32:57Z
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@mike805 That tracks for me.@threalist
(DIR) Post #AaMy1yrkX7xXhAyQ1w by Phil@freeatlantis.com
2023-10-02T19:34:42Z
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@freemo He did as soon as it became necessary. Initially it appeared that the northern states (the southern states had not yet been restored to the union) would pass it easily. As soon as it stalled, he pushed. He was very obviously in favor of the abolishment of slavery and it was his insistence that got the amendment added to the republican platform prior to his re-election. so making it seem like he was disinterested is deceptive.
(DIR) Post #AaMyNGZzry50iMosca by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:38:33Z
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@Phil > He did as soon as it became necessary. Thats a funny way of saying "once it is pointless"... He only abolished slavery at a federal level once every single state abolished it... That reeks of insincerity and necessity.> so making it seem like he was disinterested is deceptive.Like I said, actions speak louder than words... If he really cared to push anti-slavery views his emancipation proclemation would look very different. Even post slavery Lincoln was quoted saying he didnt beleive in giving blacks voting rights except for the few exceptional "intelligent ones" which is wording highly suggested was a rarity.. Politicians say what gets them elected.. gotta judge them on their actions, not their words.
(DIR) Post #AaMyWaIxtttSUvIRJw by Phil@freeatlantis.com
2023-10-02T19:40:14Z
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@freemo I think your judgement of him is absurd and twists the history and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the times.
(DIR) Post #AaMybMjRn8xFqlxlh2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:41:06Z
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@Phil dittoThe question is if either of us wants to invest the time and energy citing sources, and if we do will it even matter if we agree on the actions taken.Seems we agree ont he actions themselves. So good enough by me.
(DIR) Post #AaMykBkQ05kWOBcleK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:42:38Z
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@Phil For what its worth it may help you recognize my position if you understand as someone who is native american myself I think about a lot of aspects people dont talk about... There is a reason you know that the NAtive Americans, almost all sided with the south. Its because of the two the north was far more abusive in murdering us to extinction... So excuse me if i find the "they are the good guys" narrative a bit one-dimensional
(DIR) Post #AaMzSzgZh3JW0jBvLE by Phil@freeatlantis.com
2023-10-02T19:50:48Z
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@freemo never is anybody all good and all bad, its always muddled.
(DIR) Post #AaMzgHSYvBiAtsyMts by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:53:11Z
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@Phil Thats certainly true.. but in this case its not just muddled... its evil in specifically the treatment of minorities in fairly balanced ways... I mean sure the south is worse on blacks.. but much much better on native americans than the north, for example Asians were also more often abused/enslaved by the north (re: railroads) than the southPoint is when it comes to the treatment of minorities and their rights to autonomy both sides were bad and good in ways that kinda balance out.. plenty of evil on both sides, no one side the clear good guy
(DIR) Post #AaMzlaCef3TOTp3oHY by Phil@freeatlantis.com
2023-10-02T19:54:09Z
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@freemo Indeed and the native Americans were't angels either.
(DIR) Post #AaN005Wb0Matg0Ivg0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T19:56:46Z
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@Phil Well since most of them are dead, they are now... But yea native americans werent perfect people who lacked injustice, even before first contact.
(DIR) Post #AaN0pnLnowuSMvuZxQ by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T19:41:33Z
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@threalist @freemo Wow that's a lot. I know the South actually had a lot of slaves forced to fight for it. And there were a surprising number of Southern men - like 200K - that left to join the Union army.The non land-owning white Southerner had to know that slavery did not serve his interests. It depressed wages and allowed the Boss to treat him with contempt. So he had to wonder "what's in it for me." I think that is what the "Golden Circle" invade Mexico idea was for. Were they serious?
(DIR) Post #AaN0pnzVRKfWM4UHqK by threalist@social.fbxl.net
2023-10-02T20:06:05.957690Z
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The big issue of the time was the "Tarrif of Abominations" which was perceived as harmful to Southern agricultural industry.It is interesting to read the dairies of Confederates. The ones I've seen in terms of "why they fought" most often reference a pride in their homeland and the view that Washington didnt represent their interests or values..https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2001.05.0123%3Achapter%3D7.66> Dark and lowering clouds hover over the political horizon. The recent elections in the northern States indicate the triumph of the Republican party, in which event a disruption of the Union, and a civil war will probably follow, as the South will not submit to a sectional President, and the North will not submit to a peaceable separation.
(DIR) Post #AaN1439Hse9jQ6r4BE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T20:08:39Z
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@threalist There is no doubt a large portion of the south were fighting for their right to decide for themselves how to handle slavery (and wanting to keep it, at least in the short term)...But you are right, there are many nuanced factors overall.@mike805
(DIR) Post #AaN1juUGTTq6idcxea by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T20:14:15Z
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@threalist @freemo What I don't get is why the South did not play the good cop/bad cop game threatening to secede unless the North relaxed the tariffs and generally backed off. They had a lot of bargaining power which they threw away once they seceded.Everything I've read says secession was an emotional mob action not a thought through decision. They needed the strategist (Lee) THEN not once they were no the short end of a war of attrition.
(DIR) Post #AaN1jzKAURjZilwT6u by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T20:16:12Z
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@mike805 Because they fought a different angle.. they wanted state rights to sort it out for themselves. Because no group could get a majority acceptance on any issue.. so everything else was a standstill.@threalist
(DIR) Post #AaN1tQaMVFHgsP1A4O by croyle@wandering.shop
2023-10-02T20:02:33Z
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@threalist @mike805 @freemo@qoto.org Why am I reminded od Otto's emotional cry in A Fish Called Wanda... "Vietnam was a tie!!!"
(DIR) Post #AaN1tRK5lDrdAEPgLg by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T20:11:45Z
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@croyle @threalist Funny, the Americans claim the B-52s brought the North Vietnamese to the negotiating table.In Vietnam there is a museum to the SAM crews that makes the exact opposite argument. The success in shooting down B-52s brought the Americans to the table.
(DIR) Post #AaN1tRvfVVvD2lzgv2 by croyle@wandering.shop
2023-10-02T20:13:54Z
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@mike805 @threalist Yes, a lot of strong emotions involved there and a lot of resulting spin on why things happened as they did.
(DIR) Post #AaN1ynPD5NE76FMSQ4 by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T20:18:55Z
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@freemo @threalist We seem to be right back there too. Someday Congress is just going to lock up and fail to reboot and the debt ceiling deadline is going to expire. That will kick off the "interesting times."
(DIR) Post #AaN23LYA4zwk9fiaWW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T20:19:43Z
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@mike805 Yea it remains an unsolved problem it seems.@threalist
(DIR) Post #AaN29OIAnUyYOg7cAK by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-02T20:20:51Z
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@freemo @threalist @mike805 I might be wrong on this, reading history, I have the impression that white European elite(intellectuals, politicians, high class families, etc.) looked at many human civilizations and considered many as subhuman and treated their people as commodity i.e India, Africa, South America, Polynesia, etc).I don't believe that this the defacto human civilization dynamic, were the dominant civilization enslave the other ones.I think this white European Elite Ideology that still persist to this day in other forms of control at the global level, i.e modern debt slavery, IMF, WHO, etc.
(DIR) Post #AaN2rW15RIzX5zAbNw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T20:28:48Z
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@voidabyss Half true... it isnt "white European elite"... its literally every society, including minorities themselves.The northern africans enslaved white people... we had to go to war to stop them from enslaving whites....Central africans enslaved their own people for sale to salve traders, so they had a hand in their own slavery, and sometimes even owned their own slaves within tribes.Native americans would enslave other native americans.There is no shortage of examples of every race, any race, enslaving almost any other... this includes white people on both sides of slavery throughout history.@threalist @mike805
(DIR) Post #AaN33WzlctbNbdHZGC by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T20:30:59Z
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@freemo @voidabyss @threalist Absolutely. You also had Black people in the South who owned other Black people. Slavery was normal in Africa, so if an African made it big in America, well of course he'd buy himself some slaves.Democracy and human rights are rare, fragile, and under threat. Slavery, domination, and killing people just to display your power (Roman gladiators and Aztec sacrifices being prime examples) are the norm. Making this a race thing is a big mistake.
(DIR) Post #AaN3HW9JZJOZ2JPw0m by mike805@fosstodon.org
2023-10-02T20:33:31Z
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@freemo @voidabyss @threalist The reason the South was all upset about tariffs was they were not industrialized and had to import everything. (The tariffs applied to everyone.)They were not industrialized because slavery retards technological progress.The cotton picking machine was invented in the 1920s but did not come into widespread use until World War 2 drew the Southern field workers off the plantation and into factories that paid cash wages.Ancient Greece discovered steam power too.
(DIR) Post #AaN6Ku0nbVTTmBjvw8 by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-02T21:07:46Z
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@freemo @threalist @mike805 Civilizations fighting each other has always occurred, I agree, human using others for slaves or free labor, has occurred in many civilizations, I agree. But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology. > The northern africans enslaved white people... we had to go to war to stop them from enslaving whites....Bullshit, how much many of "white slave" descendant live in North Africa right now? Compare that of black slaves descendant that live in US or European colonies.They were act of ship piracy, yes! The European were the ones taking north African for slaves thought out history from the Roman Empire to recent European colonization of North Africa. >Central africans enslaved their own people for sale to salve traders, so they had a hand in their own slavery, and sometimes even owned their own slaves within tribes.The slave trade has been forced to many African nations back then as they are now force to sell their natural resources for cheap. >There is no shortage of examples of every race, any race, enslaving almost any other... this includes white people on both sides of slavery throughout history.Classic history whitewash to justify the massive industrial scale of the European international slave trade. I just want to add that the majority of white European are the victim of the white European Elite ideology, through out history i.e (WWI, WWII) and up to this day.
(DIR) Post #AaN7Iz3PzBton0c7g8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T21:18:34Z
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@voidabyss But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology.Not really, racial superiority is a concept that is as old as time. Bullshit, how much many of “white slave” descendant live in North Africa right now? Compare that of black slaves descendant that live in US or European colonies.What? You say its bullshit and then argue against something no one said… We said northern africa enslaved whites and we had to go to war to get them to stop… this is true… what does that have to do with the number that survived or live there today? I mean I made no assertions about that so no matter what the answer, how does that relate to if what I said was bullshit or not? They were act of ship piracy, yes! The European were the ones taking north African for slaves thought out history from the Roman Empire to recent European colonization of North Africa.I mean the ship piracy certainly was a source of the slavery industry in norther africa… but white slaves were very much documented and a historical fact fromt he period. The slave trade has been forced to many African nations back then as they are now force to sell their natural resources for cheap.Forced is a matter of opinion… These were wholly native blacks operating it locally, capturing, enslaving and selling other blacks. Obviously whites did come and buy those blacks, and that money is what encouraged the trade. But when those whites set off and sailed again those black people that remained, free black people, kept the business going until the next ship arrived. Classic history whitewash to justify the massive industrial scale of the European international slave trade.I mean if you want to call actual historic facts white washing… go ahead… everything I said was true.I notice again you talk about scale, and thats valid, at no point did I suggest the less populace nations with fewer resources were able to scale at anywhere near white nations… probably not… but also largely irrelevant. Per capita it was more or less the same, whites arent guilty just for being more industrial or there being more of them.@threalist @mike805
(DIR) Post #AaN9O6oKm2rICd87g8 by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-02T21:41:57Z
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@freemo @threalist @mike805We can argue back and forth all day about history. notice again you talk about scale, and thats valid, at no point did I suggest the less populace nations with fewer resources were able to scale at anywhere near white nations… probably not… but also largely irrelevant. Per capita it was more or less the same, whites arent guilty just for being more industrial or there being more of them.We can agree that scale matter a lot, whether in terms of slave trade impact on the European global dominance with a large network of slave colonies, or recent massive scale of use fossil fuels, the wars to control that trade and it’s impact on the planet in terms of climate change.It seems like that the white European Elite greed has no limit until the destruction of the planet. Ether by nukes or climate change.
(DIR) Post #AaN9lW2L9PDl6FqISW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T21:46:08Z
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@voidabyss We can argue back and forth all day about history.We can. And considering the gross misrepresentation of history you seem to be selling, I suspect we probably should. We can agree that scale matter a lot, whether in terms of slave trade impact on the European global dominance with a large network of slave colonies, or recent massive scale of use fossil fuels, the wars to control that trade and it’s impact on the planet in terms of climate change.Scale matters in terms of effect, sure, but lets go back to your original claim being debunked: But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology.The truth of this statement has nothing to do with scale. So while scale may “matter a lot” due to societal impact (and it does) that still has no relevance to the argument in debate at the moment.@threalist @mike805
(DIR) Post #AaNDAFYfr14z5wS6Ea by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-02T22:24:15Z
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@freemo But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology. The truth of this statement has nothing to do with scale. So while scale may “matter a lot” due to societal impact (and it does) that still has no relevance to the argument in debate at the moment.I still stand with that statement, because I can bring you many quotes from so many prominent white European Elite(Philosophers, politicians, rules, writer, etc) that make claim.I challenge you bring quotes from prominent Elite from North Africa, middle eat, south America, that make that claim.I truly believe that the master race Ideology is purely European origin.Note:(Ideologies tend to spread, so other nations i.e Japan embracing that ideology does’t make it less European).@threalist @mike805
(DIR) Post #AaNE9idkLKZAxH8Sjw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T22:35:21Z
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I still stand with that statement, because I can bring you many quotes from so many prominent white European Elite(Philosophers, politicians, rules, writer, etc) that make claim.You dont see the fallacy of logic there?You are claiming “Only X does Y”.. and then go on to effectively say “I can prove it by giving examples of X doing Y”… That would only prove that X does Y, it is the “only” part you need to prove.So if for every single one of your examples of a white man treating a non-white as lesser, if I could match each one with a historic example of a non-white person doing that to another, then do we agree you’d be wrong? If you dont agree then do you see why your approach here doesnt prove your point? I challenge you bring quotes from prominent Elite from North Africa, middle eat, south America, that make that claim.I’d be happy to, but before I waste my energy what is the exact number of prominent non-white people doing this do I need to actually quote for you before you agree I have proven you wrong? I mean, I need to know what the rules are if you wanna go this route. Note:(Ideologies tend to spread, so other nations i.e Japan embracing that ideology does’t make it less European).Well at least you moved the goal post before I bothered… So now your saying no matter how many quotes I give you of elite non-whites looking down on other races you can always play the “well the idea originated from a white guy at some point” game and invalidate those quotes arbitrarily? I hope your seeing your biases now and how you even set the rules up knowing you will be proven wrong and giving yourself a backdoor… Because even actual evidence now you can just hand wave away with no proof.
(DIR) Post #AaNFFjy6PvW6la5lR2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T22:47:37Z
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But ya know what, sure, lets do this…. Examples of non-whites considering other races as lesser than them, genetically racially inferior, subhuan etc. cast system - Specifically and explicitly designed so as to legally and personally judge people as lesser based on who they are born to (genetics). Fundementally and culturally an example. There are over 20 non-white nations, probably many more, that have employed caste systems in relatively recent history. This includes India, the elite most certainly have supported this system. Ghandi, this elite non-white has quite the history of making statements about blacks where he treats them as inferior. In particular he would call them “Kaffir” (functionally similar to the english word “nigger”) and would often refer to them as savages.: “…in the same category as the half-heathen Native and confine him to Locations, and subject him to the harsher laws by which the Transvaal Kaffir is governed.” –Ghandi The elites in Korean state media said the following about obama: ““still has the figure of a monkey while the human race has evolved through millions of years,” Another clear example of non-white elite seeing another race as genetically lesser.We havent even gotten out of asia yet…. Shall I keep going?
(DIR) Post #AaNJqNd2q0o00py8lk by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-02T23:39:07Z
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@freemo caste system it’s horrible system, but It’s more of a Hindu social class system then master race based ideology, it’s Hindu India’s version of European feudalism system. Look up how the British exploited that system to divide and conquer India. GhandiHis is British educated,that’s more of the British education racist undertone.Note, Kaffir has noting similar with “nigger”. In Islam, Kaffir mean someone who rejected the believe in God. It’s more like Atheist. It is big deal when someone is labeled as kaffir, because the punishment is death. Korean state mediaI believe that american media said more racist claims about Obama then Korean state media. This has nothing to do with Korean culture, beliefs or treatment of other civilizations.
(DIR) Post #AaNJzrWJ4WnLKDL3tw by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-02T23:40:49Z
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@freemo caste systemit’s horrible system, but It’s more of a Hindu social class system then master race based ideology, it’s Hindu India’s version of European feudalism system. Look up how the British exploited that system to divide and conquer India. GhandiHis is British educated, that’s more of the British education racist undertone.Note, Kaffir has noting similar with “nigger”. In Islam, Kaffir mean someone who rejected the believe in God. It’s more like Atheist. It is big deal when someone is labeled as kaffir, because the punishment is death. Korean state mediaI believe that american media said more racist claims about Obama then Korean state media. This has nothing to do with Korean culture, beliefs or treatment of other civilizations.
(DIR) Post #AaNK5qHEbgBFCu8lPs by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T23:41:53Z
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@voidabyssQED, totally called you finding excuses, and invalid ones at that
(DIR) Post #AaNKJQdgiyRVkN7aJU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-02T23:44:20Z
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@voidabyss nothing personal though btw
(DIR) Post #AaNLvSRkYK0sJLEcl6 by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:02:26Z
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@freemo This is the internet and I am arguing behind an anon account, so nothing here is personal. I poked through all of your examples, although you haven’t point out to any invalid argument, I like the Latin abbreviation “QED” to end the debate. 😅
(DIR) Post #AaNMCiXlxObd9sHXhQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:05:32Z
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@voidabyss You havent poked through any of them.. you made some astoundingly bad hand waving.. but thats about it..You tried to call the 20+ caste systems, notorious for extradinary racism and oppression “just a social system”… even when today with the caste system abolished in india the racism continues and is well known…You’ve blamed elite non-whites for being “british educated” using the goal-post moving approach I called you out on before you even did it.And then, you didnt even really attempt to make a sincere effort to address the “black people are monkeys” comment just saying some nonsense about how white people were racist too so that is some sort of counter argument…Like literally you just abandoned even basic common sense to make a no-facts based nonsensical hand wavy excuse that literally poked 0 holes in anything.
(DIR) Post #AaNMPW81QbmyPwLBnU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:07:50Z
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@voidabyssAs for QED, thats vbecause i called you out on your bad argument before you even made it, and then you made it.. so yes you demonstrated out the very bad-take you were going to make and did…. all that was needed was QED
(DIR) Post #AaNMk56h5XJEh2WdF2 by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:11:35Z
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@freemo i called you out on your bad argument before you even made itWhen was that?
(DIR) Post #AaNMsSHymXiWuKnTO4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:13:03Z
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@voidabyssIn the reply I left right before the one where I answered you, I spent a whole reply explaining how you already framed the question with back doors for you to make excuses against any evidence presented against you… and you did exactly that:https://qoto.org/@freemo/111167807228564752
(DIR) Post #AaNNRmnwUuXofeavFw by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:19:29Z
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@freemo I just read it, you haven’t @ me on that reply, was that on purpose to prove your point?
(DIR) Post #AaNNUQrqW173VFgM6q by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:19:57Z
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@voidabyss No that was accidental… but i should have :)
(DIR) Post #AaNO2fFzWRHXydIbLs by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T00:26:07Z
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@voidabyssAnd just to drive your point home… notice how you moved the goal post.. when providing a direct quote from an elite non white that was clearly about a race being inferior (in this case either the korean news caster of Kim Jung who controls them, either being elite non-whites)… then you said “oh well its not a culture or beleif” or some nonsense… So now even quotes from elite non-whites, exactly what you requested, is invalid cause it doesnt represent the whole culture…Man that goal post just goes wherever you feel like at the moment to prove those biases huh?
(DIR) Post #AaNRwyF2QNvIw5OT56 by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T01:09:56Z
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@freemoWow, you really think you won an argument quoting the North Korea’s communist dictatorship state media propaganda.I am not here arguing for the sake of winning a debate, but to see other perspectives on this matter. When I said the master race ideology has European origins that’s factually true, you can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race The Oxford English Dictionary records that William J. Grayson used the phrase “master race” in his poem The Hireling and the Slave (1855):For these great ends hath Heaven’s supreme commandBrought the black savage from his native land,Trains for each purpose his barbarian mind,By slavery tamed, enlightened, and refined;Instructs him, from a master-race, to drawWise modes of polity and forms of law,Imbues his soul with faith, his heart with love,Shapes all his life by dictates from aboveIt’s not about moving the goal post, it seems to me you want to diminish European White Supremacy impact on the world over the last two centuries.
(DIR) Post #AaNSMWsqlMxDcGCd3A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T01:14:32Z
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@voidabyss Wow, you really think you won an argument quoting the North Korea’s communist dictatorship state media propaganda.you are the ones who set the rules of engagement. I even pointed out before I played the game by your rules that the rules were absurd… but I did it anyway… I followed the rules, proved you wrong by your rules, and pointed out youd move the goal post (in part because the rules were stupid)… and well here we are. I am not here arguing for the sake of winning a debate, but to see other perspectives on this matter. When I said the master race ideology has European origins that’s factually true, you can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_rthen you are doing an absolutely horrific job by using such intellectual dishonest tactics. It’s not about moving the goal post, it seems to me you want to diminish European White Supremacy impact on the world over the last two centuries.There you go making shit up again that has no relationship to anything I said…Not once did I in any way say white supremacy or racism wasnt real, expansive, or a major issue. In fact I said nothing to diminish it. What I did point out is that horrific racism has been the norm across the globe and is not the exclusive domain of the whites… this doesnt diminish the evil the whites have done int he least, it only points out it is in no way unique to white people.As I pointed out when I saw your intellectual dishonest argument coming.. you quoting white supremacy till the cows come home do nothing to advance this discussion because white supremacy was never in question.. the fact that you need to pretend like it was and argue against fantasies of arguments I never made is quite telling to say the least.
(DIR) Post #AaNT0QxgCUpCpfUQ3U by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T01:21:44Z
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@voidabyss Wow, you really think you won an argument quoting the North Korea’s communist dictatorship state media propaganda.You are the one who set the rules of engagement. I even pointed out before I played the game by your rules that the rules were absurd… but I did it anyway… I followed the rules, proved you wrong by your rules, and pointed out youd move the goal post (in part because the rules were stupid)… and well here we are. I am not here arguing for the sake of winning a debate, but to see other perspectives on this matter. When I said the master race ideology has European origins that’s factually true, you can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_rthen you are doing an absolutely horrific job by using such intellectual dishonest tactics. It’s not about moving the goal post, it seems to me you want to diminish European White Supremacy impact on the world over the last two centuries.There you go making shit up again that has no relationship to anything I said…Not once did I in any way say white supremacy or racism wasnt real, expansive, or a major issue. In fact I said nothing to diminish it. What I did point out is that horrific racism has been the norm across the globe and is not the exclusive domain of the whites… this doesnt diminish the evil the whites have done int he least, it only points out it is in no way unique to white people.As I pointed out when I saw your intellectual dishonest argument coming.. you quoting white supremacy till the cows come home do nothing to advance this discussion because white supremacy was never in question.. the fact that you need to pretend like it was and argue against fantasies of arguments I never made is quite telling to say the least.
(DIR) Post #AaNYdgHXfnXxPcJWhk by Runyan50@newsie.social
2023-10-03T02:24:52Z
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@freemo Abraham Lincoln: one of the greatest Americans to ever live.
(DIR) Post #AaNYhqksfyJX3K1bFo by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T02:25:36Z
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@Runyan50 Yea he was certainly one of the biggest figures in US history... no doubt.
(DIR) Post #AaNaf8BRcYDk95HU3c by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T02:47:33Z
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@freemo you are the ones who set the rules of engagement. I even pointed out before I played the game by your rules that the rules were absurd… but I did it anyway… I followed the rules, proved you wrong by your rules, and pointed out youd move the goal post (in part because the rules were stupid)… and well here we are.I didn’t set anything up, this is a classic straw-man argument you’re making up.I made the claim that the master race ideology has European origins, I was planning to bring quotes from prominent European leaders, philosophers promoting that ideology. I didn’t yet. I just linked to Wikipedia which gives a good introduction to this subject. Not once did I in any way say white supremacy or racism wasnt real, expansive, or a major issue. In fact I said nothing to diminish it. What I did point out is that horrific racism has been the norm across the globe and is not the exclusive domain of the whites… this doesnt diminish the evil the whites have done int he least, it only points out it is in no way unique to white people.I read this more like CYA, then a valid argument against white supremacy. Racism and slavery are aspects of white supremacy, some nations have practice those to some marginal extent compared to white, sure. But I sill believe that master race ideology has European roots in a sense that European Philosophers, scientists, leaders, have claimed that some European men are better genetically evolved compared to others and that basically they should rule the whole world. And please don’t get me started on Eugenics. As I pointed out when I saw your intellectual dishonest argument coming.. you quoting white supremacy till the cows come home do nothing to advance this discussion because white supremacy was never in question.. the fact that you need to pretend like it was and argue against fantasies of arguments I never made is quite telling to say the least.I don’t make or engage with dishonest arguments.White supremacy stems from the master race ideology which has European origins, that pretty much sums up the discussion.
(DIR) Post #AaNclmcSOWhrCUDQiu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T03:11:08Z
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@voidabyss I didn’t set anything up, this is a classic straw-man argument you’re making up.You defining the rules of engagement:https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167763581276244Me pointing out their stupid:https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167763581276244 I made the claim that the master race ideology has European originNo, you claimed it was purely of european origin (in other words exclusively white) I still stand with that statement, because I can bring you many quotes from so many prominent white European Elite(Philosophers, politicians, rules, writer, etc) that make claim. I challenge you bring quotes from prominent Elite from North Africa, middle eat, south America, that make that claim.I truly believe that the master race Ideology is purely European origin.As is Very clear here the point of debate was not if white europeans are racist, I concede thatpoint many times and never once disagreed… As I pointed out and the point you yourself claimed was that it was purely of european origin. Something you absolutely failed to prove and were quite clearly disoproven on. I was planning to bring quotes from prominent European leaders, philosophers promoting that ideology. I didn’t yet. I just linked to Wikipedia which gives a good introduction to this subject.Good thing you didnt waste your time doing that because it would have done nothing to advance your argument since 1) it was never in question that white europeans are racist and 2) no matter how many racist quotes you have of white people it does nothing to prove it is exclusively white, so you would have wasted your time, especially seeing as this was disproven. I read this more like CYA, then a valid argument against white supremacy.At no point have I made any attempt at an argument against white supremecy.. In fact you have said this like a dozen times and every time I have explicitly told you I didnt disagree with this…Why do you keep insisting on arguing against ghosts of arguments you fabricate and I never said? I don’t make or engage with dishonest arguments. White supremacy stems from the master race ideology which has European origins, that pretty much sums up the discussion.Keep telling yourself that. Literally everything here is not just a dishonest argument, its over the top dishonest.. you keep fabricating an argument I didnt say, and then argue against it, and then cry foul when your called out on it and just keep doing it.This is probably one of the more intellectually dishonest conversations I’ve ever had.. the only ones that might come close is your anti-vaxx posts which thankfully you’ve calmed down on.
(DIR) Post #AaOgUNO3Y3XcznOXuy by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T15:27:33Z
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@freemoYou are over complicating a very simple questions and making up debate fallacies and claiming dishonest arguments to shutdown discussion the same way you did with the mRNA vaccines which has been proven that they are neither safe nor effective(so no point to further that debate).I pretty sure we can agree that Abrahamic religions originated from the middle east, Communism originated from Europe or Buddhism originated from Asia.So, the question here is simple:What’s the origin of the master race ideology?First, we have to agree what is the master race ideology?Simple, do you agree with the Wikipedia definition and its historical background?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_raceAnother question simple question is:Do you believe that white European are genetically superior to other humans?(Please answer this question)If a white European has that believe, they fell for the master race ideology which is the backbone of white supremacy. As is Very clear here the point of debate was not if white europeans are racist, I concede thatpoint many times and never once disagreed… As I pointed out and the point you yourself claimed was that it was purely of european origin. Something you absolutely failed to prove and were quite clearly disoproven on.The question here is not the what’s the origin of racism or slavery.My understanding of your claims that many nations around the world have some aspects of racism and slavery in their culture therefore the Master race Ideology is not purely European. https://qoto.org/@freemo/111167309620923619If that’s your claim, I respectfully disagree.Limiting the master race ideology to racism and slavery diminishes many horrible aspects of it that are exclusively white European.One point I want to make very clear here:I never claimed nor I believe that white europeans are racist. That’s borderline racist against whites to make that claim.My claim is that white European Elite (Philosophers, scientists, leaders) started the Master race Ideology.I believe those elite represent the 1% minority, and that majority of white European are victim of that Ideology as well as many nations around the world that was exploited by those minority white European Elite.https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167278359841915https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167462849461879 I just want to add that the majority of white European are the victim of the white European Elite ideology, through out history i.e (WWI, WWII) and up to this day.My questions are simple, fair and in good faith, I can clear up any misinterpretation you want. Claiming that I engage in dishonest conversation that’s your own projection, I don’t why you do it? In my opinion it’s your way to shutdown the conversation.
(DIR) Post #AaPCG5pXDyHF1VTsX2 by plenartowicz@qoto.org
2023-10-03T19:43:37Z
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@voidabyss @freemo It is quite obvious that if you pick an ideology that arose ‘somewhere’, you will find that it arose ‘somewhere’.It is quite obvious that if you pick an ideology that arose ‘somewhere’, you will find that it arose ‘somewhere’.However, there are similar ideologies, such as the racist Bantu ideology, which treats non-Bantu people (such as Pygmies) as subhuman, which led to slavery and several genocides.Also, the German Nazi ‘master race ideology’ has nothing to do with whiteness.Like several other ‘master race ideologies’ from Europe: Turanism or Sarmatism, the Nazi ideology was obsessed with Iranian heritage; on the opposite side of the scale were other ‘whites’ such as Jews, Slavs, Roma.
(DIR) Post #AaPCG6iTvgEHlvBlB2 by voidabyss@qoto.org
2023-10-03T20:59:10Z
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@plenartowicz Also, the German Nazi ‘master race ideology’ has nothing to do with whiteness.Do you mean that skin color has nothing to do with the Nazi’s master race ideology?@freemo
(DIR) Post #AaPCG7OfOpyPskvRvk by plenartowicz@qoto.org
2023-10-03T21:22:33Z
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@voidabyss @freemoNothing with ‘whiteness’. Skin colour was ANYTHING but accidental. White Slavs, black Sub-Saharan Africans and white or brown Roma were equally ‘sub-human’.White Nordics, yellow Japanese and black Indian Aryans were the ‘master race’.
(DIR) Post #AaPCG85uo2ZI2t9zLE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-03T21:23:28Z
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@plenartowicz @voidabyssGood point