Post AaF1IuYIZPmvpyxcm0 by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AaEuXLvEuGfZ6Cd8WO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:17:49Z
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Can anyone suggest a candidate other than Biden or Trump that look fairly moderate and a good choice? I have ruled out all third-party, all alternative democrats, and of course Trump... This leaves me thinking maybe one of the republican candidates are worth voting for but so far every one of those I checked out are pretty horrific too...Is there even one candidate that is remotely a reasonable and moderate choice? #USPol
(DIR) Post #AaEvO26VJyHQyv1FVw by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:27:22Z
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@freemo Look, Trump is going to the be RNC candidate and Biden is going to be the DNC candidate.You can vote for anyone you want in the Republican primaries, assuming you're a registered Republican (which, being a Trumper, I figure you must be).
(DIR) Post #AaEve3vCKZqzFhNFtQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:30:14Z
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@TruthSandwich Actually that is a bit of a story... I registered as a republican specifically with the intent of sabotaging the republican party.. my intent was to vote in primaries for a weak but popular candidate that is a runner up. The idea being it would weaken their candidate and cause them to loose elections.I voted for trump int he republican primary thinking "this guy is a moron, if he wins there is no WAY the republicans could win, no one in their right mind would support him"... keep in mind this was **before** I knew biden would win.Well, long story short, I was wrong.Either way this time around ill be making a legitimate GOP vote for who is best, and not make that mistake again... if Trump wins again not sure what ill do at this point... I guess whoever is third party i dunno...
(DIR) Post #AaEvqS3aQEtba7Cnaq by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:32:30Z
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@freemo Which means helping Trump.Remember, only a vote for Biden stops Trump. A protest vote is a type of protest, not a type of vote.#uspol
(DIR) Post #AaEwGd6BzUL3MBuIU4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:37:12Z
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@TruthSandwich Obviously I dont buy the two party nonsense... but even if i assumed it were true for a second...If my choices are:1) Vote Biden - Help Biden a lot, hurt Trump a lot2) Vote Trump - Hurt Biden a lot, Help Trump a lot3) Vote Third party - Hurt Biden a little, Help Trump a little, Help third parties show better numbers and support for future elections.I will go with 3 every single time... It reduces how much I help either candidate (more so than a direct vote for Trump as I'm sure you will agree)... and has some positive effect on the adoption of third parties by people int he future.... #3 is the clear win for me, even in a two party system.
(DIR) Post #AaEwLeDNGlsGGWevM8 by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:38:04Z
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@freemo That's among the dumbest things I've heard today, and I just blocked an anarcho-communist.
(DIR) Post #AaEwTuuf4OimN2qiuW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:39:38Z
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@TruthSandwich Nice, I always liked getting the high score :) Dont forget to put me ont he scoreboard :)
(DIR) Post #AaEwc8lPSOLze2RXIO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:41:06Z
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@TruthSandwich By the way if you had a third option where I could hurt biden and hurt trump, or help biden a little and hurt trump a little, then I might very take that... but per your axioms that for some odd reason doesnt exist
(DIR) Post #AaEx7vALY4qAjrGGfY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:46:49Z
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@TruthSandwich I've gotten to the point where anytime you call out something I post as "dumb" or "A bad take"... I take that as a sign that the post deserves boosting :)::ducks::
(DIR) Post #AaExO6nM4z0bRIE5Ds by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:49:47Z
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@freemo Dear Dr. Freemo: There are no moderate candidates to the best of my knowledge that I can think of that could materialize as a dark horse viable politicians who would be able to rapidly gain widespread national political support. In order to win the 2024 U.S. Presidential Election a political candidate must be able to demographically secure cross over voters. Also that candidate must be likeable, have charisma. Prospective moderate political candidates must already be nationally known, I think that its just too late to find viable moderate political candidates who stand a chance at winning the 2024 U.S. Presidential Election.Every hopeful 2024 U.S. Presidential Candidate has to compete against two U.S. Presidential Incumbents. Donald J. Trump who allegedly seems to have a political cult following of disenfranchised voters and U.S. President Joseph Biden who allegedly seems to represent the old style political machine political apparatus. Sincerely, Monica Andrews, Editor-in-chief, #FreePeoplesFreePress News
(DIR) Post #AaExYxXgoxMXvb4Zk0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:51:43Z
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@freepeoplesfreepress Sadly so far that seems to be my assesment as well.That said im still hoping someone might popup as a third party that has some level of sanity
(DIR) Post #AaExwbkTV8f3HmKUCW by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:56:02Z
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@freemo Biden is the only option that hurts Trump.
(DIR) Post #AaEyEjTfVJ4wT96w3U by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T22:59:17Z
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@TruthSandwich Hurting Trump isnt my priority... My priority is Causing the most hurt to Biden and Trump collectively. Should that be possible I'd want to do the least help to either of them.So telling me A vote for Biden helps him and hurts Trump is not particularly compelling to me.. if it was neutral to Biden and hurt trump I'd be all about it.
(DIR) Post #AaEyN883jaMXF00XCq by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:00:50Z
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@freemo Let me put it this way: you can hurt one or the other. Pick.
(DIR) Post #AaEycOjgGyYL5cswBU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:03:33Z
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@TruthSandwich If every choice will help one and hurt the other by an equal measure then the decision is clear.Since all choices are equal reward in that regard then I would pick whatever choice is most helpful to third parties, either during this election or in the future?So of the three choices, in your universe, if we ignore any benefits/harm to Biden or Trump, which choice would be to the greatest advantage of third parties?
(DIR) Post #AaEyvDgVaKQUJjNNlA by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:06:59Z
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@freemo None of that makes sense. The bottom line is that, if you like voting and want your vote to count, you have to vote to preserve democracy.
(DIR) Post #AaEzDAc3kDC00Er2qe by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:10:12Z
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@TruthSandwich What exactly doesnt make sense? I am happy to clarify.No my vote "counting" doesnt matter, and its a duty not what I like to do... and I dont feel Biden or Trump is a preservation of democracy...I care about one thing if it comes down to Biden and Trump, what will help third parties have the highest chance of winning in this or a future election..
(DIR) Post #AaEzFqgkHNZj4qK8CO by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:10:42Z
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@freemo Trump has made it painfully clear that his goal is to dismantle democracy. There's no both-siding this.
(DIR) Post #AaEzYe2fWSKnMCXac4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:14:03Z
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@TruthSandwich Yes he has. Never said he didnt. Either way if either of those two win a second term we wont have democracy left much longer. The fact that one is open and direct aboutit and the other is able to fool people is not much of an argument for me to support him.
(DIR) Post #AaEzpn5b8dIGL75RGC by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:17:12Z
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@freemo @TruthSandwich Ducks might reasonably survive us. Duck, but don't even dream of being like the mighty cockroach.
(DIR) Post #AaF0E39r2yLh7qe4hc by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:21:36Z
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@freemo @TruthSandwich Astonishing, after what i have heard. @freemo you might not hut others yet. I support your way to minimize harm. Go on, you have my support.
(DIR) Post #AaF0HY2EheBzl3kYSG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:22:12Z
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@TruthSandwich You have to remember, Biden is a long-term friend of the family from before I was even born... When I judge him its not just based on his actions, but based on the aspects of him you would only see in private, which for me confirms his behaviors in public that might otherwise be more speculative.
(DIR) Post #AaF0MGHE9fgY870eMS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:23:03Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven not sure i follow... what part astonishes you, can you elaborate?
(DIR) Post #AaF0Rzd8xX9QEszfJA by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:24:07Z
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@freemo There was this "sanders" that sounded halfway reasonable. What happened to him?
(DIR) Post #AaF0TYRozijKVrRUcy by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:24:24Z
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@freemo That's absurd. Biden is a liberal and has restored our nation after Trump's shitted all over it. Trump is a fascist who will destroy democracy.You don't have to like Biden, but don't lie about him. We're done here: you've lost all touch with reality.
(DIR) Post #AaF0hCEGOqYzenbbwu by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:26:52Z
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@freemo Earlier, you did mock support some people. That is what i am talking about. You are no longer purporting this, so i am astonished at your change. I am very happy to see this.
(DIR) Post #AaF0nBPmL9DSrwqXuC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:27:55Z
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@TruthSandwich I never said he planned to destroy democracy in the same way trump did... but in the end the result will be the same.
(DIR) Post #AaF0wlTBeqt3IX0ega by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:29:38Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven still not sure im following... who did I mock support and what was the change?As far as I can tell my support for candidates is largely unchanged.
(DIR) Post #AaF176GbBqgkh739Ye by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:31:32Z
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@freemo You did tell some hurtful people that supporting trump was better, considering what hate they spewed. Understandable, but at their level.
(DIR) Post #AaF19REqBmRGJeLIRs by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:31:57Z
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@freemo Certainly not a realistic one. It seems more or less inevitable that we're getting a rematch.Once again, politics isn't about the best choice, but rather about the least-worst choice.
(DIR) Post #AaF1It4q3Sd3GKAaDQ by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:29:59Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo He said "moderate"
(DIR) Post #AaF1ItnrM4dpVxEXOC by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:32:13Z
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@LouisIngenthron @freemo Oh, survival of the human race is not an option. Noted.
(DIR) Post #AaF1IuYIZPmvpyxcm0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:33:37Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @LouisIngenthron our odds are going down
(DIR) Post #AaF1ND8fPKvqdo1QOG by lucifargundam@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:34:26Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @LouisIngenthron Are squared now? Even?
(DIR) Post #AaF1NHVr93rGCsu05g by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:34:27Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Our odds are always going down, on a long enough timescale. That's the nature of entropy. š
(DIR) Post #AaF1U8sDfFH3RJdMS8 by tatzelbrumm@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:35:42Z
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@freemo The Duke of York?Better than the others, anyhow.
(DIR) Post #AaF1rizBZ7Xc6I8ZHs by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:36:14Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo Have you *seen* how humans behave?No, I think a prerequisite to survival is, y'know, "wanting to survive" and it seems like a majority of our species is ambivalent to that at best.
(DIR) Post #AaF1rjpeQ3Vaj0gT44 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:38:09Z
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@LouisIngenthron @freemo Well, this "sanders" person seems to try. I cannot claim such, i am complacant in our demise. Supportive, even. It is ok if there are no more humans.
(DIR) Post #AaF1rkZNg25X0q4zLM by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:39:56Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven You mean bernie?.. Bernie absolutely tries, and I think he sincerely cares... the only thing he has going against him is he is completely clueless about how to fix it and if he ever had the power to execute it would be horrific for everyone despite the good intentions... sadly good intentions isnt enough, you need competence too.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF29EfuzzPZJ1TW1w by Baley@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:43:08Z
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@freemo IMO the correct answer is to vote for Biden. Wish for a different system all you want, or even different circumstances, but realize that chaos in a world grappling with climate change, will not be pretty or fun.
(DIR) Post #AaF2AuDU2CSeQwyH9E by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:43:26Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron And thus, we exist as we do. I guess it would take a lot to improce our lor, and against our wishes, generally. We could believe that, or not. Let the people in power for once defend their cash cow.
(DIR) Post #AaF2M5cbyDKUzZ3d1k by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:45:26Z
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@Baley I certainly appreciate that opinion. Climate change is an important issue and I'd want a candidate who addresses that. Biden could do more, but if its him and Trump we compare in that regard Biden is the clear better choice.That said support for a third party is likely to have an even greater impact on addressing climate change, so if this is a priority then I'd vote for West, not Biden.
(DIR) Post #AaF2U3ZVTaN8wzP7lw by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:46:54Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven This is kind of unrelated, but I'm shocked nobody has been able to form a solid labor party in this country. Especially with all the strikes lately, it seems like there's good potential there.
(DIR) Post #AaF2Vgl1GoaslwZFEu by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:40:53Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo That's not an unreasonable position to be in.As for trying, the Crusaders were trying to make the world a better place by spreading the word of Christ; how well did that work out?Trying is only half the battle. *How* you try is equally as important, and that's where the issues with Sanders arise.
(DIR) Post #AaF2VhnXOwCc02klns by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:41:11Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo Ah, I see @freemo beat me to it.
(DIR) Post #AaF2ViQB5H6vvspd20 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:44:11Z
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@LouisIngenthron @freemo Afaik the dems pushed him out illegally?
(DIR) Post #AaF2Vj7mT9zO77ERzk by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:45:22Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo Not to my knowledge. He just lost the primary, like he always does.
(DIR) Post #AaF2Vjkm8BBI43Tam8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:47:08Z
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@LouisIngenthron More complicated than that... He won the primaries one year in terms of direct votes.. but despite him winning the "normal" vote the superdelegates override this and he was denied the primary anyway.Its kind of ironic cause people yell and scream about Trump being elected despite not winning the popular vote when they do this regularly within their own party.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF2gewCNNa2JX1m4W by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:49:11Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Well, yeah, because a party's inner workings don't have to be democratic. Most regular folks don't participate in them anyway, so it's already skewed towards political insiders. That seems more reasonable to me than nonsense like the electoral college for the actual vote.
(DIR) Post #AaF2he476Z9ltkCSNU by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:47:37Z
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@LouisIngenthron @freemo It seems media purveys different storied. I guess we will never know, we were not there.
(DIR) Post #AaF2heqKDJimJGkxWa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:49:19Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven No no the media isnt far off... they changed the superdelegate rules on him and then stole the primary from him even though he technically won by the way it was traditionally counted it:https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/25/politics/democrats-superdelegates-voting-changes/index.html@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF2kIrOOy1N04W7xQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:49:49Z
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@LouisIngenthron There is no legal requirement a party need be democratic, no.. but if they elect not to be they deserve ridicule and a lack of support.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF3E4NmnFCQmorY6C by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:54:42Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron At least that much is clear. And we can all rest easy: the others don't get the easy life either. We all suffer. Ain't that nice.
(DIR) Post #AaF3O8vMlKpXlfNB4a by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:57:00Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I want everyone to have the easiest life possible... the problem is a lot of people dont know how to achieve that and the way they think they can accomplish that often does the opposite.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF3WCBEXb1IBNdOaG by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:58:29Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron Yeah, eating the rich might pose some ethical problems to normal folks.
(DIR) Post #AaF3hiTKovkHWHavvU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:00:31Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Yup, they would be quite surprised after they destroy the biggest wealth producers in society and trigger massive starvation and death for everyone... good intentions dont get you very far, least of all when you do the exact opposite of whats best for society.That isnt to say that there arent issues to address with the rich, there are, but if your going to eliminate rich people all together, you might as well just cover yourself in honey and go hug a bear, your chance of coming out of it with something positive to show would be much higher.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF3pO3Ed3hOVB2oKW by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:01:57Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron That is about what society is trying, and every bit of not caring i can muster helps my sanity.
(DIR) Post #AaF3tUm1ZqRsVdxAPI by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:02:41Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I think a lot of people disconnect and stop caring to remain sane... nothing wrong with that.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF3vjWDj5Okosd0ZU by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:03:07Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Some of us prefer businesses that produce actual value, like cheeseburgers or houses, instead of just "wealth".The people who actually create those things should be the wealthy in a just society, not the people who were born to it.
(DIR) Post #AaF4EYlpuaIgzFuSQq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:06:28Z
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@LouisIngenthron Cheese burgers and houses **are** wealth... Based on your wording you are confusing "wealth" (things that have utility and value) and money..If you have profit alone, then you just are moving money around.. you arent generating wealth (or money)... in order to generate wealth you must increase the overall number of things in society with utility... So yes what i said already was in line with what your saying, you just are using wealth in the way of "collecting wealth" which is not the same as "generating wealth".> The people who actually create those things should be the wealthy in a just society, not the people who were born to it.Agreed, like the people who sacraficed decades to create the idea, get funding, investing in the building, getting the money to pay people to do the labour, etc... yes the owners who risk everything and actually create the wealth are the people who should be wealthy.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF4H9TePMPvPTdhwG by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:06:58Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron Nothing wrong with humanity ending, i would say. I generally love people talking to each other, to create something, to improve themselfs and their surroundings. Creating wealth is an antithesis, an entirely different goal.
(DIR) Post #AaF4LVU0X78Eolsnyq by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:05:04Z
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@LouisIngenthron @freemo Exactly.
(DIR) Post #AaF4LWIhUdgJLzbHzk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:07:43Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Glad all three of us agree then.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF4SaQeXiIKBUgpCS by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:09:02Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron generate wealth... maybe, there is a price. let's see what reality says to that - let's check back in 100 years. Funny, how that is not possible :-)
(DIR) Post #AaF4TalilTzDWn1We8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:09:12Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven you literally just described generating wealth when you said "improve themselfs and their surroundings" and then went on to say its an antithesis... this makes no sense.Most people confuse "generate wealth" with "aquire money"... these are totally different things with very little related to eachother... You can move wealth around, you can aquire wealth... but unless you provide a utility to the world you arent generating wealth.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF4YD7w5jgzeVcIym by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:10:04Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron Yeah, the "generating wealth" you talk about is a unicorn.
(DIR) Post #AaF4fA8taPYKQINeoS by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:11:19Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron What do you *think* people in the position to make rules are doing? Helping others, because ethics?
(DIR) Post #AaF4fR86Qc1H6l8lRA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:11:20Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Weve been generating wealth since the first human existed... its something that started with the cavemen,.. If it didnt we would still be in caves, by definition. The first time someone built a tent they generated wealth, the first time they built a fire pit, the first time they painted on a wall, these were all examples of early wealth generation.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF4fYYwnCeUA2knke by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:11:23Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven > If you have profit alone, then you just are moving money aroundSo then you would agree that most of the stock trading industry is not, by your definition, "generating wealth" despite the fact that they become fabulously wealthy by performing their jobs?> yes the owners who risk everything and actually create the wealth are the people who should be wealthy.The problem is that the guys who come in after the original owner sells are paid even more, usually just to ruin what the original owner built. Most businesses aren't owned by their founders, or even people who care about the long-term health of the business, but rather short-term investors who are only looking to cash out as soon as possible. That mindset of wealth extraction is what's wrong with so much of business today.
(DIR) Post #AaF4iizeT4TNNcktaS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:11:56Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven That statement shows you have no idea what these terms mean in any technical sense.. if wealth cant be generated we would still be in caves by definition.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF4lLXy68BFWy3aZE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:12:25Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I said nothing of the sort.@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF4r4Jj4Qirpb7j9c by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:13:28Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron Exactly.
(DIR) Post #AaF5UIlpGeFfx0yVbE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:20:31Z
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@LouisIngenthron > So then you would agree that most of the stock trading industry is not, by your definition, "generating wealth" despite the fact that they become fabulously wealthy by performing their jobs?Its a bit more complex than that... Stocks directly allow a company to aquire funding from the public.. If the company is a company that generates wealth (not all companies necceseraly do), and you buying their stock enabled them to have the liquid capital needed to invest in a project that accelerated their growth, and thus their ability to generate wealth... then no, you as an investor in their stock on the market directly helped wealth get generated as a result of your investment.If you invest in companies that are all vapour ware and dont actually generate wealth themselves, then no you arent generating wealth, even if you get rich doing it...As with most things, it depends ont he nuance and any pure ideological standpoint is just nonsense.> The problem is that the guys who come in after the original owner sells are paid even more, usually just to ruin what the original owner builtAs with everything it is situational.. if a new owner comes in and tanks the company (or changes it froma wealth generator to non-wealth generator regardless of value)... then yea your right, they are destroying wealth not creating it... However if they enable the company to create more things which add utility to the world, tehn they may be continuing to generate new wealth... again it depends. It is situational> Most businesses aren't owned by their founders, or even people who care about the long-term health of the business,Being owned by the founders is completely irrelevant to if they are a wealth-generator.. even caring about the long-term heath is irrelevant to if they are wealth generators now or int he near future.. you can make choices which ensure your company is a wealth generator for 5 years to come but your plan is flawed and then by 10 years it may fail. This failure does not necceseeraly destroy its wealth previously generated thoughm but it may, it depends.> but rather short-term investors who are only looking to cash out as soon as possible. Generating a lot of wealth in the short term, knowing the company will be destroyed int he long, still generates wealth, so long as its destruction doesnt destroy the previous utility it created.A car company that sells cars and makes a profit for a year, then tanks, still generated wealth for a year, then stopped, even if the companies value goes to 0 the amount of utility added to the world is the same (those cars still exist) and thus overall still generated wealth.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF5XKJdyhPnc3Eem0 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:12:45Z
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@LouisIngenthron @freemo He does agree, and he's not a bad guy. He's just flailing around and trying very hard to improve. It will take a moment, give him time.
(DIR) Post #AaF5XLDIdlw0OfH6WW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:21:04Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven Funny, I thought the exact same thing about you :)@LouisIngenthron
(DIR) Post #AaF5geldJFF1eEmAe8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:22:46Z
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@undefined @admitsWrongIfProven @LouisIngenthron > So then you would agree that most of the stock trading industry is not, by your definition, āgenerating wealthā despite the fact that they become fabulously wealthy by performing their jobs?Its a bit more complex than thatā¦ Stocks directly allow a company to aquire funding from the public.. If the company is a company that generates wealth (not all companies necceseraly do), and you buying their stock enabled them to have the liquid capital needed to invest in a project that accelerated their growth, and thus their ability to generate wealthā¦ then no, you as an investor in their stock on the market directly helped wealth get generated as a result of your investment.If you invest in companies that are all vapour ware and dont actually generate wealth themselves, then no you arent generating wealth, even if you get rich doing itā¦As with most things, it depends ont he nuance and any pure ideological standpoint is just nonsense. The problem is that the guys who come in after the original owner sells are paid even more, usually just to ruin what the original owner builtAs with everything it is situational.. if a new owner comes in and tanks the company (or changes it froma wealth generator to non-wealth generator regardless of value)ā¦ then yea your right, they are destroying wealth not creating itā¦ However if they enable the company to create more things which add utility to the world, tehn they may be continuing to generate new wealthā¦ again it depends. It is situational Most businesses arenāt owned by their founders, or even people who care about the long-term health of the business,Being owned by the founders is completely irrelevant to if they are a wealth-generator.. even caring about the long-term heath is irrelevant to if they are wealth generators now or int he near future.. you can make choices which ensure your company is a wealth generator for 5 years to come but your plan is flawed and then by 10 years it may fail. This failure does not necceseeraly destroy its wealth previously generated thoughm but it may, it depends. but rather short-term investors who are only looking to cash out as soon as possible.Generating a lot of wealth in the short term, knowing the company will be destroyed int he long, still generates wealth, so long as its destruction doesnt destroy the previous utility it created.A car company that sells cars and makes a profit for a year, then tanks, still generated wealth for a year, then stopped, even if the companies value goes to 0 the amount of utility added to the world is the same (those cars still exist) and thus overall still generated wealth.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF5kZzB1rSfybyuzg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:23:29Z
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@undefined @admitsWrongIfProven @LouisIngenthron So then you would agree that most of the stock trading industry is not, by your definition, āgenerating wealthā despite the fact that they become fabulously wealthy by performing their jobs?Its a bit more complex than thatā¦ Stocks directly allow a company to aquire funding from the public.. If the company is a company that generates wealth (not all companies necceseraly do), and you buying their stock enabled them to have the liquid capital needed to invest in a project that accelerated their growth, and thus their ability to generate wealthā¦ then no, you as an investor in their stock on the market directly helped wealth get generated as a result of your investment.If you invest in companies that are all vapour ware and dont actually generate wealth themselves, then no you arent generating wealth, even if you get rich doing itā¦As with most things, it depends ont he nuance and any pure ideological standpoint is just nonsense. The problem is that the guys who come in after the original owner sells are paid even more, usually just to ruin what the original owner builtAs with everything it is situational.. if a new owner comes in and tanks the company (or changes it froma wealth generator to non-wealth generator regardless of value)ā¦ then yea your right, they are destroying wealth not creating itā¦ However if they enable the company to create more things which add utility to the world, tehn they may be continuing to generate new wealthā¦ again it depends. It is situational Most businesses arenāt owned by their founders, or even people who care about the long-term health of the business,Being owned by the founders is completely irrelevant to if they are a wealth-generator.. even caring about the long-term heath is irrelevant to if they are wealth generators now or int he near future.. you can make choices which ensure your company is a wealth generator for 5 years to come but your plan is flawed and then by 10 years it may fail. This failure does not necceseeraly destroy its wealth previously generated thoughm but it may, it depends. but rather short-term investors who are only looking to cash out as soon as possible.Generating a lot of wealth in the short term, knowing the company will be destroyed int he long, still generates wealth, so long as its destruction doesnt destroy the previous utility it created.A car company that sells cars and makes a profit for a year, then tanks, still generated wealth for a year, then stopped, even if the companies value goes to 0 the amount of utility added to the world is the same (those cars still exist) and thus overall still generated wealth.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF6VDIzAk5XFEU3k0 by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:31:56Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven > Generating a lot of wealth in the short term, knowing the company will be destroyed int he long, still generates wealthSure, it āstill generates wealthā. Burning cash for heat generates wealth if youāre cold, but that doesnāt mean itās a good thing. Why would you look only at wealth in a single point of time? A company that lasts 100 years generates far more wealth than a company that closes after one. By seeking short-term profits over long, the investors are robbing the company of future wealth to pay themselves dividends now. And they enshittify the products and services as a result of their wealth extraction techniques. We see it happening over and over.Investment is a good thing for business. But publicly-traded companies arenāt invested into; Theyāre bet on like ponies in a race, and the incentives that come from that rob all of us in the long run.
(DIR) Post #AaF6X5F67Vu4olYamm by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:32:14Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven āGenerating a lot of wealth in the short term, knowing the company will be destroyed int he long, still generates wealthāSure, it āstill generates wealthā. Burning cash for heat generates wealth if youāre cold, but that doesnāt mean itās a good thing. Why would you look only at wealth in a single point of time? A company that lasts 100 years generates far more wealth than a company that closes after one. By seeking short-term profits over long, the investors are robbing the company of future wealth to pay themselves dividends now. And they enshittify the products and services as a result of their wealth extraction techniques. We see it happening over and over.Investment is a good thing for business. But publicly-traded companies arenāt invested into; Theyāre bet on like ponies in a race, and the incentives that come from that rob all of us in the long run.
(DIR) Post #AaF8BVWLwAlTr8T2HY by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:50:45Z
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@LouisIngenthron Sure, it āstill generates wealthā. Burning cash for heat generates wealth if youāre cold, but that doesnāt mean itās a good thing.This analogy suggests you still dont understand the distinction between money, value, and wealth.Short of literally burning money, companies dont burn money when they tank, even if they spend irresponsibly they arent burning moneyā¦ All they are doing is moving the money out of their company and into other companies or peoples pockets.. the total wealth when a company tanks is the same, its just distributed different. Why would you look only at wealth in a single point of time?We arent, we are explicitly talking about how wealth that was generated (thing with utility, the cars) then a company going bankrupt later does not destroy that wealth at a later point in timeā¦ the company crashing doesnt destroy wealth because the amount of things it put into the world that had utility (which was earlier in the timeline, so we are looking at time here) still exists, so wealth was generated and not destroyed. A company that lasts 100 years generates far more wealth than a company that closes after oneThis is certainly true.. and if your argument was āthe company that made short term wealth and then crash did not reach its full potential at making wealth, and if it had been managed with concern for its long term success then it could have generated more wealthāā¦ this would be a correct statement yes, there was a lost potential for generating wealth that wasnt realizedā¦ that is not the same as saying that the company didnt over the court of its life have a net positive wealth generation, it did. By seeking short-term profits over long, the investors are robbing the company of future wealth to pay themselves dividends now.Its not always for dividends, and investors do not get to dictate day to day operations.. The only thing an investor can do is vote for board members and with some serious restrictions sometimes impeach them.. even the board cant control day to day operatiosn, they in turn need to hire a CEO.So to think an investor in a company even can exhivit such fine level of control is a bit sketchyā¦But all that aside, sure, they are generating wealth, which is good for the world, but they are generating perhaps less than they potentially couldā¦ ok.. so its less good than it could be, but still goodā¦ im ok with that analysis i suppose. And they enshittify the products and services as a result of their wealth extraction techniques. We see it happening over and over.Sure, i am willing to say they may build a shittier product to maxamize profits.. thats partly the consumers fault for buying a product that is a shitty deal though.. but yea, I mean i dont care enough to disagree with this per seā¦ does change the fact that they generated wealth which was good for society and if you eliminated them all you wont achieve some paradise, youll just destroy what little imperfect wealth generation we have and create massive povertyā¦ so while maybe they could build better products in theory, in practice they are still adding wealth to the world. Investment is a good thing for business. But publicly-traded companies arenāt invested into; Theyāre bet on like ponies in a race, and the incentives that come from that rob all of us in the long run.Yea this shows you have absolutely no clue how stocks work thenā¦ I just spent 2 years running a company merging with a public company (so I had to run it like a public company ont he stock market)ā¦ Yes when you buy stock we as a public company get operating money as a result of that. You probably dont realize it but the company itself is able to 1) take out loans on the value of its stock 2) holds some of its own stock so as the value of stock rises so does the asset holdings of hte company 3) can, and does, and is normal issue new stocks and sells it on the stock market regularlyLiterally public companies get cash as a result of their stock price going up, and your gonna sit here pretending like its just a trading card gameā¦I know you mean well but man you assert things like you know when clearly you dont know the basicsā¦ when talking to experts on subjects (in this case me as someone who literally just spent 2 years being the EVP of a public company)ā¦ Please please pleaseā¦ try to listen to people and recognize the areas you dont have knowledge in (like i did with you when talking about aviation)ā¦ it will go a long way for you, I say this as a friend not to be mean.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF8vu354joTFTtmaG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T00:59:08Z
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@LouisIngenthronJust to be clear despite my strong opposition to ideas on economy. I like and respect you as a person. So please dont take my harsh criticism personally in any way.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF98wxjYNEI3AcR4C by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:01:31Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven All those things you claim I donāt know about the stock marketā¦ I did. I even own stock and profited off of Elonās jackass purchase.I would never claim that the stock market generates no value. My argument is simply that it generates more harm, and is therefore a net negative on society.
(DIR) Post #AaF9GVfstQchjcsIrI by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:02:53Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Iām a little bit annoyed about your assumptions about what I know, but not at all about your argument. I enjoy the give and take as well.
(DIR) Post #AaF9LWDyHC5Ot7Cu1o by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:03:45Z
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@LouisIngenthronOk so we are in agreement that this statement you made is wrong? But publicly-traded companies arenāt invested intoAnd that in fact public traded companies, when you buy their stock, causes them to be āinvested intoāā¦ in other words we agree that buying stock raises stock prices and ultimately results in money int he pockets of the company you invest in?As long as we agree there then yea, seems we got the basics in line, and I apologize if i misunderstood@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF9QwC996GuskwBpg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:04:38Z
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@LouisIngenthronIt seemed you were saying by ānot invested intoā that companies didnt get the money from buying stocks or their stock price risingā¦Seems that may not have been what you meant, so again, sorry if I assumed or misunderstoof what you meant to say.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF9UOhPckR89hDBHE by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:05:23Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Fair enough, yeah, that was meant as hyperbole, not a statement of fact.
(DIR) Post #AaF9ZDXUXnA4zVrypE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:06:14Z
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@LouisIngenthronFair enough then.. doesnt always translate well ont he internetā¦As a general rule i try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt around miscommunications. No worries then.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaF9pGsTtoA9ykLIBM by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:09:10Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven You must admit, though, that the motivations behind investing privately in businesses tend to be vastly different than the motivations behind buying stock, even though they are both technically investment. That was the point I (apparently, inelegantly, lol) was trying to make.I buy stock to support companies I like, but Iām pretty sure Iām in the minority there.
(DIR) Post #AaFA5Eh1n1F3pub7mC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:12:01Z
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@LouisIngenthron A company that lasts 100 years generates far more wealth than a company that closes after oneOne small point about thisā¦ One company lasting 100 years will generate more wealthā¦ But a company succeding and then failing over a 10 year period, but generates wealth over the ahort term puts more wealth into the world. So when it crashes that wealth has to move into some other place, a new company. So rolling that money into a new company that then generates wealth for 10 years, and repeatā¦ may very well generate the same or even more wealth.Generating wealth 10x with 10 seperate companies over 100 years, rather than one company generates the same wealth regardless.. The key is in understanding that a company crashing doesnt destroy wealth, so the fact that there is a ārebirthā cycle that bank rolls the society wealth every time means the overall picture is still wealth generation over the long term.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFAJpWhdlia7xj9pQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:14:40Z
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@LouisIngenthron You must admit, though, that the motivations behind investing privately in businesses tend to be vastly different than the motivations behind buying stock, even though they are both technically investment. That was the point I (apparently, inelegantly, lol) was trying to make.Oh yes, the two types of investors thing very differently. But I think this has less to do with public vs private and more to do with who is allowed.You cant legally invest in a private company unless you are an accredited investorsā¦ A person cant buy 1 share at 100$ off the street.. they need to prove they qualify as an investor (there are a bunch of rules but more or less they have to be rich and have experience in investing).So yea obviously when the private investors are limited to professional investors who are mostly all rich and invest exclusively for a living you will have a much different dynamic then in the public where every 80 year old babushka (grandmother) is out there spending 20 cents on a share of google.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFAK0gg91EYk5TmPA by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:14:44Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven If the companies were dying naturally, then I would agree with you. At some point, the stodgy Goliath must be beaten by the nimble and innovative David.But theyāre not dying naturally, or being beaten in open competition. Theyāre being sucked dry by vampires who claim an ownership percentage.At this point, I legitimately treat an IPO as a death knell.
(DIR) Post #AaFAOb3AtFyag6Bktk by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-09-28T23:12:43Z
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@freepeoplesfreepress @freemo It seems the things are as they are - did you have any hope? If so, sorry to hear that.
(DIR) Post #AaFAObog2dyR3QPgwK by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:12:16Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo Dear admits Wrong If Proven: I believe that politically we are in a state of chaos, political polarization is paralyzing our Republic, 2024 U.S. Presidential Election will test our mettle, there is no simple fix to this problem, yes I hold out hope that eventually we will end up with a coalition government comprised of political moderates, some people might consider me to be delusional needing extensive psychiatric mental health care for believing that we can return to more of a stable political atmosphere. If we keep going down this dangerous road we will be destroyed from within, not by China, Russia, or North Korea, instead by domestic political extremists who do not believe in the liberties enshrined in law within the Constitution of the United States. Sincerely, Monica Andrews, #FreePeoplesFreePress News
(DIR) Post #AaFAOcbb6l6bV9IlBw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:15:30Z
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@freepeoplesfreepress Honestly, I think he just ran out of fucks to give today :)@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFAQl6gTGP6RmrRyK by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:15:56Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Wait, what? I donāt think thatās right. If I want to sell 10% of my company to my friend because he wants to support me with a cash infusion, neither of us need a license for that, do we?
(DIR) Post #AaFAb3hcBh29152x72 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:17:49Z
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@LouisIngenthronI mean for what its worth after spending 2 years dealing with running a more or less public companyā¦ on this we agreeā¦ I took over after we as a company were already commited to go publicā¦ I said when I joined to the day I left our decision to go public was the dumbest shit ever and the type of investor we had to deal with was far less desirable than a private investorā¦So yea, in this regard we sort of agree.. i wouldnt be quite as bad as you in terms of how anti-public I am (like ill invest in public companies a bit but i would never take my own public company)ā¦ but we do agree public invesment is a lot shittier a deal than private@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFBFQP3CsQH0KbyBE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:25:04Z
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@LouisIngenthronIt is complicated, and im not a lawyerā¦ so i cant go into the level of detail youād likeā¦But the short of itā¦ it depends. If your friend is just a friend with no business expiernce or money, then no, that would be illegal.There would be three ways:1) They have to qualify as credited (basically a rich experienced investor)2) They would have to qualify as exempt from accreditation requirement by being what is legally defined as a āsophisticated investorāā¦ more or less this means they have to be an expert enough in the field to be able to show they fully understood the risks and rewards. Basically if your aunt who is super sweet but has never worked int he industry wants to invest she wont qualify.3) the investment needs to be registeredā¦ which basically means all the restrictions of a public company are enforced on it.. this is completely not a possiblity for any startup as the infrastructure to qualify the investment as registered is very very expensive (its about as expensive as just going public since you have to make all the same motions).@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFBVFwzpvT9Dh2Qmu by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:27:56Z
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@LouisIngenthronAlso accredidation, despite the confusing name, is not a license. There is no agency that gives it to you.. its simply a set of minimum criteria a person must meet and prove to you they meet before investing. There are a few criteria.. but for example anyone with a net worth of 1 million or more is automatically an accredited investor@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFBXeKWAKDtPVBIzw by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:28:24Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Thatās so fucked up.
(DIR) Post #AaFBeTKpRWoLKxa1i4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:29:36Z
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@LouisIngenthronIt was intended to protect people.. Its the same logic that you cant give investment advice to someone if you yourself arent licensed..But in reality i agree its fucked up because it severely limits the freedom of people to invest and take on the risks if they should choose to do so.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFBmNuDVqGeobuCtk by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:31:03Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven In response to: "Honestly, I think he just ran out of fucks to give today :)"Dear Dr. Freemo: I am not being antagonistic towards anyone in my toot, I am just stating my own personal opinions concerning our current political landscape. My previous toot concerned Admits Wrong If Proven and You Dr. Freemo, I was not directly any hostility towards either one of you. Sincerely, Monica Andrews, Editor-in-chief, #FreePeoplesFreePress News
(DIR) Post #AaFBxv2me6xcmEPe1A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:33:07Z
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@freepeoplesfreepress Nothing you said was remotely antagonistic... As always you are kind and considerate... no worries... I am just saying that Admits rather flippant attitude today looks like he is just having a bad day and ran out of fucks to give. I dont think **you** are the reason he has no fucks left however :)@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFCEPHK0DqPBH4gZE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:36:04Z
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@LouisIngenthronfor what its worth you CAN however give your aunt who doesnt know the business shares for freeā¦ like they can hold shares, they just cant buy shares from you.This is why you can bring on a partner and give them a cut no matter who they are, so long as they dont have to pay to come on board as a partner (unless they match the other criteria).@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFCrYTdjgmL0IVIDg by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:43:11Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven So, based on a cursory search, it seems 230.504 makes allowances for securities sold for less than 10 mil a year, and 230.506 has a carve-out for securities that are not advertised publicly and have fewer than 35 buyersā¦ that one says that all you need is basically a letter from the buyer saying theyāre informed enough to buy.
(DIR) Post #AaFD41zbp6ec1IPErw by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:45:25Z
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@LouisIngenthronAnd thus why youād need a lawyer to hash out the details :)I cant speak to how complete your understanding isā¦ I do know like anything it can get complicated and there are edge casesā¦ If this is an actual issue for you please talk to a lawyer not me. I know enough to know when I need to talk to a lawyer, but even I after years of doing this still wont try to fully understand the law myself.If you took the money and didnt consult with a lawyer you may get in a lot of trouble later.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFDCXZIJHKiGa9g9o by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:46:59Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Agreed. But, no, Iām not looking to sell my company anytime soon.Whatever happened to the term āsell-outā being an insult? When did that stop?
(DIR) Post #AaFDQieJuKdigiGbWi by freepeoplesfreepress@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:49:33Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven Dear Dr. Freemo: I hope that Admits will continue to be part of future conversations, because each of us makes a valuable contribution to our thread conversations. I learn from everyone on the Mastodon Fediverse, I try my best to add positive feedback to everyone on the Fediverse. Dr. Freemo sometimes I find it rather difficult to interpret your toots, so I do not always know what you mean. U.S. Grammar can be hard to understand for me, especially slang language.Sincerely, Monica Andrews, #FreePeoplesfreepress News
(DIR) Post #AaFDTQWJle3rKXoaNU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:50:00Z
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@LouisIngenthronI just asked my buddy who knows the law better than me (still not legal advice but closer to it than my advice)..He said rule 504 must still be registered, so it is still prohibitive for most people, thought he sophisticated investor rule would exempt from registration as i mentioned earlier.Rule 506 is the sophisticated investor rule, 20 while it does, as you say, give you access to sell to up to 35 non-accredited investors they must all qualify as sophisticated.So seems, at least according to my friends, neither of these rules actually change what I said, they pretty much reinforce what i said but just add some more detailsā¦@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFDY50lAHXK4MGxoO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:50:51Z
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@freepeoplesfreepress I'm sure he will be back :)@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFE0bMWThSYVq3JC4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:56:00Z
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@LouisIngenthronWe are talking as i write this by the way.I asked about the wholeāA sophisticated investor just needs a letterā thing you said.. and he said, its more complicated than that.It is not your job as an investor to prove they are sophisticated, but if you know they arent it would work against you.So if you know your aunt well enough and know she never worked in the industry, never invested, and didnt even graduate high schoolā¦ then even if she lies in a letter and says she is an expert, because you know she isnt you can and probably will be found guilty should that ever go to court.However if there is plasuable deniablity and the court would find that you had every reason to beleive they were a sophisticated investor and they just lied to you but you had no idea they were lyingā¦ then yea, you probably would be fine.As he put it, you basically just need to show that any āreasonable personā in your situation would conclude the person was a sophisticated investor.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFEGV7jRNUZnUiQ1w by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T01:58:54Z
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@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven So, say you know this person has worked in offices all their life, helping to facilitate day-to-day business. Theyāre college educated, but not necessarily in business or investing. Theyāve never invested before, but they hear out the business plan and have faith in the person theyāre investing in to succeed, and they want to support them.Edge case?
(DIR) Post #AaFEhu9EVdD1E9U6ka by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:03:50Z
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@LouisIngenthron Neither me nor my friend would be comfortable saying with any authorityā¦ thats just enough detail to need a lawyer to get any meaningful answer..From what me and my friend are kinda agreeing on (and keep in mind its speculation) is that it depends but i dont think it would count.Education itslef or any one factor doesnt matter. Courts look at āthe totality of the circumstancesā as my friend just put it. Basically what this means is you can be a high school dropout, but if you demonstrated you are an expert in other ways, thats fine. But if you have a deggree in business that too may qualify you if everything lines up.Based on everything im hearing (and my friend agrees).. if, for example, someone works as a secretary in a doctors office, that wouldnt, for example, qualify them to invest in a medical company..
(DIR) Post #AaFF4qfJchnd5RQoBE by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:08:00Z
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@freemo So, that makes sense; especially if its purpose is to prevent people from getting duped by bad actors. If thatās the case, then, wouldnāt there also typically be a degree of leniency granted if both parties were acting in good faith? I did see some stuff in that law about bad actors, but that was more āactors with a recordā.
(DIR) Post #AaFFIehitKLU2n8om8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:10:27Z
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@LouisIngenthron Comes back to āthe totality of the circumstancesāā¦ I think its reasonable to say that the sentancing would be harsher if the evidence shows you were intentionally trying to defraud themā¦ for sure. I mean again non-lawyer, but that tracks with what I know and am learning.
(DIR) Post #AaFFMmsCSepwXQ0neC by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:08:22Z
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@freemo Iām also surprised thereās not a āmomā exception, lol.
(DIR) Post #AaFFMnq6rul7XE2e1o by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:11:14Z
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@LouisIngenthron Yea to be honest I would have expected some exemptions for immediate family.. if there are any neither I nor my friend know about it.Keep in mind these are just the federal restrictionsā¦ state by state restrictions can be even worse.
(DIR) Post #AaFFPghnqhTOHIX2Qq by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:11:41Z
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@freemo Then presumably, āignorance of the lawā could likewise work in someoneās favor.
(DIR) Post #AaFFUK9N8X3XludbkW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:12:35Z
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@LouisIngenthron Well I doubt that.. ignorance of the law is never an excuseā¦ its not the ignorance of the law working in your favor, it is your good vs bad intentā¦ intent is a big part of the law, ignorance of the law doesnt factor in too much, at least not directly.
(DIR) Post #AaFFYu9XDnvyaetkQq by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:13:26Z
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@freemo Well, but theyāre connected. If youāre ignorant of the law, then youāre not inherently intending to break it.
(DIR) Post #AaFFrjvlS2vMOBRF7w by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:16:48Z
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@LouisIngenthron I have never heard of intentionally breaking a law vs accidentally breaking a law making a differenceā¦ i guess in sentancing maybe.. i dunno, youd have to ask someone who knows more than me, but I dont think soā¦. In terms of guilt/innocent im pretty certain it wouldnt matter thoughā¦ but sentancing i dunno..I guess you can think of murder rightā¦ if you intentionally kill someone its murder, if you accidentally but negligently kill someone its man slaughterā¦ your knowledge of the law wont effect your verdict at allā¦ but your intent to murder will effect it.. its just, it doesnt matter if you know murder is illegal or not.So to bring that back hereā¦ getting her to invest that exploits her may not be intentional.. but whether you know exploiting her is illegal or not really wont effect it, what matters is did you intend to exploit her or not.
(DIR) Post #AaFGQDMwVTQrXJacgC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:23:02Z
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@LouisIngenthron Yes but it doesnt matter if you intend to break the law, it matters if you intend to do thing Xā¦ thing X is a thing that breaks the lawā¦ but your knwoledge of it being illegal isnt the factor, your intent to do it is.Intending to murder someone is more illegal than accidentally murdering someone. knowing murder is illegal has no effect there that dichotomy is true regardless.
(DIR) Post #AaFGXzO0NWg6UBnHFo by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:24:29Z
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@freemo Right, I donāt think ignorance of the law would help you if you acted in good faith. But I think it might if you also acted in good faith, like a little bonus.
(DIR) Post #AaFGZjbY1bgO7SxcMC by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:24:48Z
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@freemo Right, I donāt think ignorance of the law would help you if you acted in bad faith. But I think it might if you acted in good faith, like a little bonus.
(DIR) Post #AaFGlnF4KK9MsMCEAS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T02:26:57Z
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@LouisIngenthron I think its possible a judge might decide to be less harsh in his punishment of youā¦ I think it would be a bit of a crap shoot and just depends on the judge you get maybe and what impression it makes on himā¦ and i only think it is likely to have much of an effect, if any, in sentencing.But hey, what the fuck do I know.
(DIR) Post #AaFM0OTRCEZCAmhN7A by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:25:38Z
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@freemo Florida Man DeSantis seems to be a stronger candidate for Red gang. He opposed the thing that failed to stop the other thing that was going around.Essentially anyone who hated the actions taken would be highly tempted to vote for Florida Man. Unlike the Dolphins, he could be going places. There's also concealed carry without a permit in Florida now. There's medical weed too.He seems to be pragmatic and that's what the US needs.
(DIR) Post #AaFM4q9oDCrNBpdaq0 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:26:26Z
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@AmpBenzScientist I looked into desantis, I think he might even be worse than trump if thats possible...
(DIR) Post #AaFNUzxkTh0x5I28uW by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:42:22Z
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@freemo @TruthSandwich Oh you vote Libertarian too? That's all I've voted for except in local elections.In the land of the Free we have the freedom from choice. Looking at it another way, we have quite a bit in common with The CCP. The Federalist Papers likely inspired Communism.
(DIR) Post #AaFNfD8yKH6qrP9Xmq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:44:11Z
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@AmpBenzScientist Despite being a registered republican I have once voted for a republican outside of primaries.I have voted in the past either for the Libertarian party, independent, or the Democrats.@TruthSandwich
(DIR) Post #AaFNhP42ybykPVtWzY by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:44:37Z
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@freemo @AmpBenzScientist Dude, you're a Republican. Enough said.
(DIR) Post #AaFNieBqE0xvbz8LKa by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:43:12Z
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@AmpBenzScientist @freemo Libertarianism is bad on its own merits, and a pointless protest vote, regardless.
(DIR) Post #AaFNiey3KlWw1VgqTg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:44:48Z
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@TruthSandwich Its not a protest vote.. its a vote for the ideology we think has any hope of saving the world@AmpBenzScientist
(DIR) Post #AaFNl71VzgcDcGTkye by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:45:17Z
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@freemo @AmpBenzScientist It's a protest vote. The candidate can't win, so what you're doing is electorally identical to not voting.
(DIR) Post #AaFNlw1cN407nLv3ia by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:45:25Z
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@TruthSandwich Sure.. i guess im a republican who has never voted republican and only ever voted for democrat or third party.. sure ill take that hilarious label.@AmpBenzScientist
(DIR) Post #AaFNohAO4TcYa4Kycy by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:45:56Z
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@freemo @AmpBenzScientist And you admit that you won't vote for the only candidate who can stop Trump.Like I said, a Republican.
(DIR) Post #AaFNzK2MPFla20eN6m by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:47:49Z
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@TruthSandwich Well I guess I have to vote for Trump then... Id be throwing away my vote if I voted for biden, I dont think he would stand a chance against Trump. I mean sure Trump is literally the anti-christ, but id be throwing away my vote on biden, so I guess I have to vote Trump...@AmpBenzScientist
(DIR) Post #AaFO31yPVbGjAMZSsq by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:48:32Z
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@freemo @AmpBenzScientist I actually don't care who you vote for. Yes, it makes you a terrible person, but I'm not responsible for you. The world is full of other terrible people, too.
(DIR) Post #AaFOCehMtnMbsOBmhk by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:50:16Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron @admitsWrongIfProven A fully legalized drug trade would generate wealth and improve the standard of living, even for those with problems.When compared to Smart Device manufacturers and their corruption of government. A legal drug trade is morally superior.
(DIR) Post #AaFODO6Q5V8mh7FvV2 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:50:22Z
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@TruthSandwich correct I wont vote for a cannidate who is just as bad as Trump, maybe worse (iswitch who i think is worth day to day)... just because it might cause one candidate i dont want as president to loose to be replaced by another candidate I also dont like..Im not sure how you dont understand that even if i but your two party nonsense all that will prove to me to me all votes will cause harm, which makes me put 0 value in a vote and is just more likely to push me to a third because at least then im not voting for Trump or his senile evil twin.@AmpBenzScientist
(DIR) Post #AaFOLWPJ5xiUldy7ua by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:51:50Z
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@AmpBenzScientist A drug trade doesnt create wealth usually.. I mean if i sell heroin, heroin itself doesnt really have utility (as it only harms people)... and ultimately leads people to behave in ways that are wealth destroying... so no... that wouldnt generate wealth, it would be one of the main examples of destroying wealth.@LouisIngenthron @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AaFOOwLl64qS61wHoW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:52:27Z
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@TruthSandwich Great, then you shouldnt have much need to keep blasting the two-party conspiracy theory nonsense my way.@AmpBenzScientist
(DIR) Post #AaFOZfzSGKjIXicsVs by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:54:25Z
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@freemo @AmpBenzScientist I don't care. Tens of millions of Americans voted for Trump. Twice. Every last one of these people is total garbage, without exception. A roughly equal amount didn't vote at all, and they're nearly as bad.So if you're going to be a Trumper, be a Trumper. Embrace evil. Be a Nazi. See if I care. There's tens of millions just like you. I'm not responsible for you. I'm not emotionally invested in trying get subhuman trash to go against their nature.But if you lie, I will point this out. And you've lied repeatedly. You've lied about Joe Biden and you've lied about electoral system.
(DIR) Post #AaFOf27PPwMQcWtv0K by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-29T03:55:24Z
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@freemo @AmpBenzScientist You're capable of doing the math and proving to yourself that only Biden or Trump can win. I have no idea why you're pretending otherwise, or why you're bashing Biden with both-sider nonsense.Presumably, you're trolling. If so, go find a bridge.
(DIR) Post #AaFPQXsNA4nKj0WVZg by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-29T04:03:59Z
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@freemo Even our first President immediately went back on his word and started The Whiskey Rebellion. It takes a bad person to be a good president.
(DIR) Post #AaFPd99kNdkVp3euaO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-29T04:06:13Z
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@TruthSandwich I am not trolling.. Yes I've done the math.. There have been 59 elections for president in the history of the USA... in that time 8 of those have been elections where a third party from a previous year was one of the two top parties in the current election.In all those cases the third parties the year before a switch had about the same support as they do now in terms of percentage, and the next year shot up to 50%+that works out to a 13.5% chance in any one election of a third party with ~2% support or less from a previous year will win that year.If we look at recent history points of note the last time one came close was Ross perot in 1992 at nearly 20% of the vote, and of course in the early part of 19th centraully where was also a third party coming into the top two.While all of that does suggest a third party is certainly the long-shot... to say impossible is just not factual... Depending on how you look at iut there is a 13.5% chance at best, at worst maybe a 5% chance of them winning.Voting for the non-evil choice with a 5% chance I will take any day than voting for teh super-evil choice who is just a tiny bit less evil than the other super-evil choice just because he had a 40% change of winning.Thats not a strategically wise tradeoff for me.@AmpBenzScientist
(DIR) Post #AaHNUqLOd0dtZKwMoy by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-30T02:51:46Z
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@freemo @TruthSandwich I vote for Incumbents if I know them and they are at least somewhat good at their job.
(DIR) Post #AaHNrk5u1zzKqUc2oi by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-30T02:49:46Z
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@TruthSandwich @freemo That Electoral College must be difficult, I never hear about anyone I know getting in.
(DIR) Post #AaHNrkljWTRswEBS1A by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-30T02:55:51Z
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@AmpBenzScientist KNOW YOUR ELECTORATES PEOPLE!!!@TruthSandwich
(DIR) Post #AaHOo4b7xPWrET22Vs by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-30T03:06:27Z
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@freemo @LouisIngenthron @admitsWrongIfProven You would be creating wealth, job security, infrastructure and capital to reinvest in the community. I don't see the problem with people dying as those people are removed from the community and can no longer be role models. The problem is government funding shadow wars with the proceeds and ruining lives with a system they set up.It reminds me of a song.https://youtube.com/watch?v=pDuBkUzNaUk
(DIR) Post #AaHQ4azZNrYqHxuISW by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-30T03:20:38Z
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@freemo @TruthSandwich I'm pretty sure my Electorates belong to the same club that invested in Pfizer before the vaccine came out thanks to insider information and they won't face any consequences. Not everyone in government is a bastard and some would like to see people go out like the former head of Wagner.
(DIR) Post #AaJnV3rhLMpqczjYcS by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-09-30T03:13:42Z
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@TruthSandwich @freemo I was homeless and unable to vote. Our votes are just coloring books so we can feel that we participated in Democracy. Thanks to Representative Democracy, which looks a lot like China but with worse candidates, we are free from choice.
(DIR) Post #AaJnV4jE8LeZJ0mJ3Q by TruthSandwich@qoto.org
2023-09-30T07:58:20Z
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@AmpBenzScientist @freemo This is harmful nonsense.We have a real choice between liberalism and fascism.
(DIR) Post #AaJnV5ZgzHcXvjKCpc by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-10-01T06:42:30Z
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@TruthSandwich @freemo Liberalism is the one with electric vehicles and cuckold parties?
(DIR) Post #AaJnV6K8CcleFl3IDQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-10-01T06:52:30Z
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@AmpBenzScientist You are thinking democrats.Easy way to remember...Republican: fascist, authoritarian, Mostly rich old white dudes being racist towards blacks and telling them how they know whats best for them. Their politicians wear red tiesDemocrats: fascist, authoritarian, Mostly rich old white dudes being racist towards blacks and telling them how they know whats best for them. Their politicians wear blue ties @TruthSandwich
(DIR) Post #AaJoQwwlDwPDy0hmHw by AmpBenzScientist@qoto.org
2023-10-01T07:03:01Z
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@freemo @TruthSandwich So these politicians publicly dislike black people but pay the black men to plow their wives while they watch? That sounds like the incestuous cocktail party scene that ensures that the US is partially a third world country.