Post AaDwtFsO4V2HT7uLku by andiias@mstdn.social
(DIR) More posts by andiias@mstdn.social
(DIR) Post #AaDWbe3yoCUASkGxVo by rcz@101010.pl
2023-09-28T06:15:00Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Akcja „#laptop dla czwartoklasisty” przybiera dość zabawny obrót. Miała to być dość oczywista kiełbasa wyborcza, że „#PiS daje dzieciom”, wychodzi trochę inaczej.Sprzętu nie można po prostu przywieźć do szkoły i rozdawać jak leci — potrzebny jest formalny ślad, kto za co odpowiada — więc parę tygodni temu dostaliśmy do wypełnienia ankietę z danymi do umowy, wypełniliśmy i… czekamy.Laptopy opóźniają się. Miały być rozdawane na najbliższym zebraniu, już wiemy że nie będą. Wieść rodzicielska niesie, że to przez naklejki.W doniesieniach medialnych były obrazki laptopów z grawerunkiem Orła Białego, w rzeczywistości każdy laptop ma naklejkę #KPO i informację o finansowaniu ze środków Unii Europejskiej.Dlaczego, skoro te środki pozostają zablokowane? Bo są tam wpisane, a rząd nadal planuje uzyskać zwrot po ich odblokowaniu. Nie mógłby tego zrobić, gdyby laptopy nie miały oznaczeń #EU.Ale „#Unia daje dzieciom laptopy, które my przekazujemy” to nie jest do końca ten przekaz, na który liczył pompujący antyunijną retorykę o rząd. Więc laptopy są opóźnione, rodzice się niecierpliwią, bo przecież poskładali już kwity mówiące że lada chwila laptopy będą, a PiS może się pochwalić przed wyborami, że złośliwie nie wydaje dzieciom ich laptopów podarowanych im przez #UE. #polityka
(DIR) Post #AaDZ4NkwiUAWC4CTbs by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T06:42:29.610022Z
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@rcz Dilemmas of populism in #Poland - PiS government wanted to distributed free laptops for school kids as part of their election campaign before 15 October voting and they were supposed to be engraved with patriotic symbols advertising PiS. Except they also planned to get a refund from EU grants, but everything purchased this way needs to have an EU sticker - or they won’t get the refund. So they’re now in conundrum because they will either advertise themselves and get no refund, or they will get refund but the message “EU paid for the laptops we’re giving away” isn’t exactly what testifies to their great generosity…
(DIR) Post #AaDgSN5zWVoam3Qj7w by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T07:41:17Z
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@kravietz @rcz 🤣No sympathy for the PiS, but I chuckle at these “EU paid for this” signs etc. No, why not be accurate? EU taxpayers paid for all the good works. Just as anything the PiS government purchases will have been paid for by Polish taxpayers.
(DIR) Post #AaDgSO146JT7d48J5U by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T08:05:15.656959Z
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@chowderman Well, that’s a fundamental discussion about taxes (and EU membership fee is a kind of a tax on member states).EU in this case is just another redistribution authority.I believe redistribution is fundamentally good thing, as can be seen empirically in both UK and Eastern Europe, both of which historically had dramatically suffered from underfunding of specific infrastructure or social sectors.To put that bluntly, UK and Polish governments were historically more likely to spend billions on funding luxury golf fields and churches respectively than say roads, sewage systems, footpaths or environmental projects.EU changed that by creating a system of redistribution based on specific strategic sectors and transparent criteria agreed by all member states. These funds are available to anyone, not just those with political leverage which is the case with funding on national level.You can still see that in the remote areas of England or Wales, where an attentive walker will notice small, faded EU patches on footpaths, cycling paths etc that received EU funding while UK was part of EU.With #Brexit that money was happily redirected back to golf fields and the City.@rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDkzxZNKoYdGjRhho by halszkaraptor@pol.social
2023-09-28T08:56:16Z
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@rcz kurczę, ta Unia to same problemy, nie tak było policzone! 🤔 Jak wyglądały kwity, które podpisywali rodzice? To po prostu zgody na przekazanie sprzętu?
(DIR) Post #AaDm5EMUQfaMkcUoCW by rcz@101010.pl
2023-09-28T09:08:26Z
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@halszkaraptor są dwa modele przekazania: na własność albo na zasadzie użyczenia, wzory umów można znaleźć w sekcji „Regulaminy i dokumenty” tutaj: https://laptopdlaucznia.gov.pl/centrum-informacji(W stopce tej strony zresztą widnieją logo KPO i unijnego programu #NextGenerationEU.)Dotychczas mieliśmy tylko prosty formularz, którą formę preferujemy + dane do umowy. Przed przekazaniem będą podpisywane umowy zgodne z urzędowym wzorem, przy przekazaniu protokół.Natomiast teraz dostaliśmy informację, że laptopy na razie nie dotarły, nowy termin przekazania nieznany.
(DIR) Post #AaDnrb9J6q21HLxPCS by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T08:38:28Z
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@kravietz @rcz Yes, the EU is another redistribution authority, forcing us to fund priorities set by them. Acknowledging the fact needn’t mean opposing it.I don’t recognise your references to UK golf courses or the City.Church taxes aren’t restricted to Poland.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_taxIt is unclear what you mean by “political leverage”, but please don’t try and tell me that it is safe from corruption.
(DIR) Post #AaDnrbvAEuJRfmLcnI by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T09:28:14.015561Z
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@chowderman There’s no “church tax” in Poland! Roman Catholic church in Poland is largely funded from the public budget, enjoys tax reliefs and various other privileges (e.g. priests teaching at schools are paid from the state education budget). And, in addition to that, it also engages in various business opportunities and also applies and receives EU funding, just like any other NGO.But that’s a digression.My point is that EU is not any “them” with “their priorities”, because European Commission is largely composed of prime ministers of member states, and EU policy is based on consensus of all member states.If there’s no consensus, the policies are simply not introduced as member states have plenty of mechanisms to block them. To reiterate, no EU policy is introduced without this consensus. So however controversially EU policies are presented in national press, all these policies have been previously agreed upon by the very national governments in the first place. This also - or especially - applies to various structural funds (=the grants).The golf fields are just a metaphor: in the UK, the public funding on national level has been always allocated in the first place to already wealthy regions of England at the cost of Wales and other rural areas. EU, with its structural funds, allowed to invest in these regions, which resulted e.g. in turning derelict mining site in Cornwall into a very popular tourist and biological site Biosphere Project, repair hundreds of public footpaths in my neighbourhood or expanding Internet coverage in rural areas, which was truly embarrassingly backward in the UK. This funding has been largely obscured by the UK government, especially before and during Brexit:https://fullfact.org/europe/how-much-do-regions-uk-receive-eu-funding/By the political leverage I mean interest groups which force politicians on the areas where public funds are being allocated. In the UK these groups are mostly land owners and large building developers, which is the main reason why UK building market looks like it looks (damp, mouldy, archaic and very expensive). In Poland that’s the conservative, pseudo-Christian bigots. Both groups use their influence to redirect funds that could benefit everyone to their own benefit.@rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDoCryxieU1ZEGGhM by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T09:32:05.649635Z
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@chowdermanThe Guardian has also just recently published a lengthy rant about HS2 and while I don’t quite agree with their conclusions regarding HS2 specifically, they also document the bias of UK government spending on the infrastructure projects which before Brexit was largely compensated by the EU funding:You see it in the disastrous allocation of funds for infrastructure spending. While white elephants such as HS2 are signed off without due diligence, essential but less glamorous or lucrative projects – such as upgrading the sewerage network, or improving the rail links between northern cities, or insulating homes, or ensuring that schools don’t collapse on their pupils – are neglected. The primary purpose of most major development projects is to provide contracts for developers. If they also, once constructed, supply public services, that is a welcome but secondary benefit. The greater the ratio of private gain to public gain, the more likely a project is to proceed: poor value for public money is baked into policy.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/28/hs2-fiasco-clientelism-profit-big-projects@rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDqy0Ybr5H3gGXYIa by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T09:45:14Z
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@kravietz @rcz Whether the Church gets paid from general tax funds or from a ear-marked tax, public funding of churches is not restricted to Poland.Quite why you believe being a priest disqualies one from earning a living I can’t imagine.The “Political Consensus” that you write about can also be referred to as “horse trading”. The EU is no different from nations, other than scale.
(DIR) Post #AaDqy1TKSCe0WB4qhs by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T09:58:36Z
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@chowderman Sorry, don't want to sidetrack, but did kravietz say being a priest disqualifies you from earning a living?And the EU is a strange beast, I don't think you can class it as just another "nation". It has some authority which is usually reserved for nation states while lacking some of the democratic control mechanisms - the European Parliament doesn't really count. It is rather "sui generis" and that's one reason why there's so much disagreement about its benefits.@kravietz @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDqy2WYXgotmTawNM by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T10:03:01.238915Z
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@andiias No, what I’m saying that you’re either a public non-profit organisation or a for-profit business enterprise. You’re either a civil servant paid for by the whole society - and benefiting the whole society - or you’re a private contractor hired by believers of one specific confession. You can’t be both, because this leads to corruption and quite obvious bias towards your profit-making business. By the way, Poland is - declaratively - a secular state.@chowderman @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDwtFsO4V2HT7uLku by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T10:28:02Z
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@kravietz That's what I understood you were saying. Btw, the way the church is treated in Poland sounds very similar to the German arrangement. Which currently leads to problems with Islamic religious instruction, as Muslim institutions weren't originally included in this arrangement (and I think now there's disagreement over which Muslim bodies the state should deal with).@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaDwtGjurTr098x6Bs by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T11:09:23.543475Z
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@andiias I think there’s a fundamental difference between Poland and Germany - as far as I’m aware, there’s a church tax in Germany, which you pay for maintenance of the religious institution of your choice or not, if you declare yourself as an atheist?@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaDxsm7UnxKj8SJGoy by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T10:09:34Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias If the priest is a teacher, let him get paid for his teaching work.Lots of people have more than one job without being corrupt. Indeed it is quite normal. That includes civil servants.If however you have an issue with civil servants working a second job, oppose that rather than focusing solely on priesthood.
(DIR) Post #AaDxsmrw1ITpSU2MCm by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T11:20:30.067060Z
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@chowderman If the priest is a teacher, let him get paid for his teaching work.I 100% agree with that postulate as worded, but the question is who exactly pays. In a secular state, it should be the followers of a specific religion paying for the work of their priests, which is reflected in the church tax policies of some countries.In Poland we have a rather absurd situation where the share of people actually attending Sunday mass is <30%, taking communion <15% (2021 data) and continuously decreasing, yet the state funding of Roman Catholic church is continuously increasing just as its influence on public life, including legislation.Most importantly, it’s that growing political (rather than spiritual) engagement, in addition to widespread and tolerated abuse (financial, moral and sexual) by Roman Catholic priests, is one of the primary reasons for decreasing attendance in churches.@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaDxzOtXYNNZ8BwQd6 by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T11:18:36Z
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@kravietz Yes, that's correct, but the monies are not used for religious instruction in schools, as far as I'm aware. Everyone in state schools has instruction in "ethics", secular or religious - the insistence on that might also be due to Germany's past - so if you don't belong to a religious community you will be given introduction to "secular" philosophy. This is also paid by the state. So there is no preferential treatment for any party in this.@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaDy4iAxILnONTcTx2 by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T10:41:52Z
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@andiias @kravietz @rcz @kravietz states “teaching”, which would be any subject.If he means religious instruction... In a multi-cultural environment the religion of the teacher could introduce bias/problems, although they wouldn’t need to be employed as a spiritual leader for that to be the case.What are you going to do, mandate atheism as a requirement to teach religious studies? (That itself is in a way a belief).
(DIR) Post #AaDy4j61s9RvEUK3ua by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T10:48:46Z
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@chowderman I assumed he meant religious instruction. And yes, there is a conflict here between secular ideals and the reality of mixed beliefs in society. The reason why in Germany religious instruction is paid for by the state is so that the state can keep an eye on what is taught in its schools. You don't want full scale creationism taught in your institutions or any old Salafi becoming the source for religious instruction for your children.@kravietz @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDyQp4ILi5m7q31Pc by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T11:26:39.598454Z
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@andiias That is very much different from Poland then - in theory, school students have a choice between Roman-Catholic religion lessons and ethics lessons, but in practice a lot depends on peer pressure and the attitude of the school leadership. Law is a secondary factor here, the schools have a great lot of instruments to make it very inconvenient for people to choose “ethics”. And the religion lessons are not lessons about religion, they are literally religious education, sometimes in the most die-hard interpretation about the moral decay of the Europe, homosexuality being a grave sin etc, think of your “old Salafi” in the Catholic version. @rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaDzxRmQ3UrVPNo5aq by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T11:43:45.587736Z
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@chowderman The relation between the state and the religion is always delicate and complex. To put that bluntly, in the context of Poland I don’t want mine - or anyone else’s - children to be taught that homosexuals or adulteresses should be stoned to death. Firstly, because it’s incompatible with the legal order written in the Polish Constitution, and secondly because it’s incompatible with the New Testament that is the foundation of Christianity.Probably the biggest problem these people introduced is the creation of a rather extreme mix of pre-Christian moral postulates (“eye for an eye”) with Christian ritualised symbolics stripped of all spiritual meaning, then presenting it as “true conservative” or “true Christianity” and turning it into state policy. Notably, on that level there’s very little difference between the Russian state Orthodox church and the Polish or US “Christian radicals” - as a matter of fact, in the past they’ve enjoyed quite tight cooperation within Russian-sponsored initiatives such as World Congress of Families, TFP etc.@andiias @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaDzzH1uzjP0eAvYwK by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T11:33:08Z
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@kravietz Interesting, yes, that sounds somewhat problematic.It won't surprise you when I say that of course peer pressure and local attitudes exist in Germany, as well and the rules are implemented in a variety of ways across the country, of course. ;-) But particularly in recent years, with the addition of a largely secular population in the former GDR and the growth of Islam on the other hand, this has come under ever greater scrutiny. @rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE0O8R25U7vEJWsWu by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T11:34:08Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias It comes back to, do you mean religious instruction or teaching (in general, e.g. maths).Religious instruction then can either be general, multi-faith, including no faith - or it could be religion specific.I am not sure that religion specific teaching belongs in a secular state school at all, before considering who pays.The bit about Church attendance I am not convinced by, let the voters decide.
(DIR) Post #AaE0O92xoST57xHAeW by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T11:48:36.075294Z
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@chowderman In Poland before 1990’s religious education was entirely done in churches - I myself attended school, and then once a week I attended religious education in a nearby church. Concordat signed in 1993 guaranteed the Roman Catholic church the right to teach 100% religion-specific education to be taught in schools, which was then perceived as a fair reaction to decades of repressions of the church under communism. Where we ended up today is that primary school children have two hours of 100% religious education per week taught in public schools, and maybe one hour of biology, science etc.@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaE0h0J0XKtvWElzSS by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T11:51:22Z
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@kravietz But is this stuff (stoning, etc.) in Poland actually taught in state schools? Despite it being, as you mention, unconstitutional? That would indeed be a scandal.And if yes, is it widespread or just single occurrences ...You see my eyebrows raised here ... (well you can't but you know what I mean).And thanks for your comments. Very interesting.@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE1SqzQTZB2WhQkMK by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T12:00:39.814876Z
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@andiias I don’t have statistical data on how widespread it is, but the amount of news about extreme content being presented on religious lessons in Polish schools makes it a significant problem. You can find any modern “radical conservative” bullshit presented by the teachers in these stories: techno being satanist music, contraceptives being carcinogenic, “post-abortion syndrome”, evils of LGBT, worldwide prosecution of Christians, “treatment of homosexuality with electricity”, spermatozoids carrying souls etc.Some samples:https://parenting.pl/skandaliczny-przebieg-lekcji-religii-katechetka-podzielila-sie-swoimi-pogladamihttps://www.o2.pl/informacje/czego-ucza-sie-dzieci-na-lekcji-religii-wstrzasajaca-prezentacja-6634578830887456ahttps://www.popularne.pl/co-uczniowie-slysza-na-lekcjach-religii-skandaliczne-sytuacje/@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE2SXp3q4dN2CzykK by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T11:50:13Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias In parts of the world there are whole schools run by the Catholic Church that avoid the extremist teachings you mention.This seems to be more of a problem with Poland than Catholicism.
(DIR) Post #AaE2SYVbHuf5A8tx3I by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T12:11:48.642772Z
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@chowderman I agree with this 50%, because while these teachings have objectively nothing to do with Christian ethics, they are still tolerated by the Vatican which is the ultimate religious authority especially in the Roman Catholic church.I’m not aware of any excommunication or even threats of excommunication by Vatican against Roman Catholic priests who make these - effectively anti-Christian - claims in Poland or elsewhere, which implies they kind of approve this behaviour for political benefits.And yes, there’s plenty of Catholic priests I know who teach and practice actual Christianity, especially among missionaries, but their presence does not absolve or cancel the presence of the extremists, does it? It’s still one hierarchical organisation, managed by Vatican.For me it’s a clear case of corporate responsibility, specifically because Catholic church is hierarchical. In case of Evangelics for example I couldn’t blame a church A for teachings of church B, because they are actually independent of each other. But with Catholic church it’s not the case.@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaE2UDNKpeFcCKpIy8 by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T11:58:59Z
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@kravietz Yes, that's an interesting point, the position the church attained by opposing communism. In the GDR, although not as prominently, the churches were also focal points of opposition but as far as I can tell their influence waned very quickly after unification. Or, let's put it like that, it doesn't seem to be at Polish levels. Plus, it sounds like the number of atheists there is far greater than in Poland.@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE2VCk8fTjkWixsTw by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T12:04:39Z
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@kravietz I haven't heard similar things from Germany. I wonder what we do to avoid that. There must be some kind of state oversight over teachings, or maybe the rule is simply to not teach anything unconstitutional. I actually don't know. But what you report sounds like a state within a state. @rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE2lB5IbQu612TkuW by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T12:15:10.815564Z
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@andiiasAnd that’s 100% accurate description of the current state of affairs, which worries me because I see a lot of common patterns between how this denial of rule of law evolved in Russia 20 years ago, and what is happening for the last 10 years in Poland. Of course, Polish governments are much more limited in these attempts due to EU membership and very vocal opposition inside Poland, yet the process does happen to the maximum extent allowed within these boundaries. @rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE41PJrXsL2kgarxY by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T12:27:15Z
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@kravietz Would like to pull both your and chowderman's last posts together, but I can't (within 500 chars). Sacred sperm really isn't a problem when looked at in isolation, but what kravietz points out is that in Poland this can be seen as part of an ideological wedge that is driven between believers and non-believers which ultimately aims to replace state power. Sounds like a long shot, but happened in Russia, and we're not immune. (500 chars is just not enough ...)@rcz @chowderman
(DIR) Post #AaE4BtFl6hH4UBflo0 by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T12:17:28Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias The Catholic Church has a reputation for accepting repentance and forgiving 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #AaE4Bu2KC87euoOYVM by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T12:31:12.907323Z
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@chowderman “Repentence - Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin. synonym: penitence.”I see zero repentence among the ultra-conservatives, quite the opposite.@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaE4H1NCLQAv7LbCYC by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T12:13:42Z
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@andiias @kravietz @rcz Brief research shows a Polish political party that majors on bashing the Church, and we all know that politicians lie.If I were Polish I would be concerned but possibly sceptical as to how widespread the teaching on stonings are. (Unless being Polish would mean I would be backward)The sacred sperm bit I wouldn’t be concerned about, I am capable of much providing balance to my children.
(DIR) Post #AaE4HAfxl1X5y9RoY4 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T12:32:05.800805Z
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@chowderman What’s the point of sending kids to school if you then have to “balance” everything they learned there?@andiias @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaE6vSgWQ4K5Ja35ai by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T12:33:19Z
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@kravietz @chowderman I also wonder (and I might of course be wrong in chowderman's case) if coming from countries with an oppressive or totalitarian past changes your perception on this. I notice that Brits take a lot more things more lightly simply because they don't have this experience, even if only handed down through the generations, in their "genes", so to say. I do think what happened in Russia provides a lesson to all of us, and if kravietz sees similar patterns in Poland ...@rcz
(DIR) Post #AaE8RgXIYY9vUifDHs by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T13:08:45Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias Point of order: I don’t refer to “everything”. I do refer to morality.I wouldn’t delegate upbringing to any state, church, school or teacher. I don’t particularly trust any of them.To accept such a deferment is dangerous and brings us to the Russian example where the authorities determine the truth.
(DIR) Post #AaE8RhFFv7Jxh3EJns by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T13:18:53.239775Z
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@chowderman Once again I agree, but then why have the religious education lessons at public school at all? @rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaEAWAi2Vy0c8qxGzI by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T13:29:30Z
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@andiias @kravietz @rcz 👏I have some indirect knowledge of life in a totalitarian state, but far removed from my experience.A) It surprises me that populations allow it to happen (shakes head at what is happening in the USA).B) I can understand the reassurance that the EU brings to people from nations with a totalitarian past.C) I remain as sceptical of blind faith in the EU as I am of blind faith in any government.
(DIR) Post #AaEAWPJQDmEJQqYKCO by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T13:39:42Z
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@chowderman Instinctively, I would be entirely on your side. Think for yourself, don't let anyone else think for you, don't put blind faith in anything (I don't think anyone here is actually doing that).But in my case, I had to reassess quite a number of beliefs in the wake of the Russian invasion. I had to acknowledge how easily this approach can be exploited by actors one doesn't straight away recognise as being nefarious, in this case Russia.@kravietz @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaEAlPJEVyfVlZcJ1M by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T13:44:52.175737Z
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@chowderman Assurances given by EU are the opposite of faith-based, as they rely on the presence of a number of enforced and well-tested legal instruments, such your ability to directly use EU Directives even in absence of national-level laws and ultimately European Court of Human Rights that extends your law to appeal court rulings beyond the - possibly biased or not independent - national level.@andiias @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaEAyrK7fYvcPqRnCC by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T13:38:52Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias 👍I think I made a similar point several posts ago. Any specific religion or morality framework (e.g. communism) to my mind doesn’t belong in school.I don’t remember much of my “Religious Education” lessons, but I can’t recall Jesus playing staring a role, it was AFAICR more about tolerance for relious beliefs.PS “State School”, not “Public School”.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school_(United_Kingdom)
(DIR) Post #AaEAys4uraMIkyLA8G by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T13:47:17.249847Z
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@chowderman Well, Jesus taught mostly by example, if you remember from the Bible - which is 100% opposite of the majority of especially the Catholic priests who teach from the position of authority based on “do what I say, not what I do” principle :)@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaEEX1ZKNrgLtoXfzU by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T14:04:02Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias You have faith in the supranational state but not in nation states. I find that perplexing and dangerous.The ECHR does not equal the EU.
(DIR) Post #AaEEX2Sz2wCYgQa7k0 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T14:27:04.499715Z
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@chowderman Firstly, my conviction is based on first-hand experience with the quality and transparency of legislation on all levels. At EU level both factors are by all means better than on national state level. In case of UK it’s mostly about the law’s representation (as with the current water quality laws that excessively prefer the interest of large water companies to dump sewage), in case of Poland it’s about the law’s quality, which is sometimes terrible.Secondly, I believe in all levels of the democratic order, which starts at the first-instance court of the national state and usually ends at the appeal court of the same national state. But I feel more confident having yet another layer of appeal beyond that, just in case national state turns into wrong direction.@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaEEY07RGAcPgyxlUO by andiias@mstdn.social
2023-09-28T14:08:48Z
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@chowderman If you live on an island, "nation" may have some different connotations for you than if you share land borders which in principle could be anywhere ...And I think you might mistake trying to avoid past mistakes with putting (blind) faith in something. For no nation that I can think of is the EU a state, not even for the Germans (maybe for the Belgians). @kravietz @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaEExJMaqY0scL7WRU by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T14:22:31Z
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@andiias @kravietz @rcz I stand corrected, make that “Supranational Union”.You seem to be obliquely referring to wars on the European continent? If you will excuse my rudeness - How is that going?I think that the EU is a great idea, but one that constantly frustrates. I don’t want to start a rant, but for one example, how can Orban be given a veto on sanctions?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supranational_union
(DIR) Post #AaEExK5y7qJEt4LlAW by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T14:31:48.641898Z
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@chowderman Well, Orban’s veto on sanction is a direct consequence of EU prerogatives being limited to whatever the Member States voluntarily agreed to give away to EU in exchange of benefits of the membership. Think of it in the following way - if EU prerogatives went any further than the currently established consensus, there would be no EU.I very much recommend this book about EU - “Enraged Citizens, European Peace and Democratic Deficits” by Robert Menasse, that was an eye-opener for me: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/E/bo24016595.html@andiias @rcz
(DIR) Post #AaEGqS2sMumxQQkpZA by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-09-28T14:38:19Z
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@kravietz @rcz @andiias You keep mentioning how crap the UK is and how the EU is better, but the UK has only recently left the EU.I am not aware that water regulation has changed for the worse since the UK left the EU, in which case, the EU can only be an irrelevance to discussion of UK water standards, as it was to the state of UK housing stock.
(DIR) Post #AaEGqSmxbZeTjMJdOi by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-09-28T14:52:59.632076Z
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@chowderman Brexit had very tangible impact on abandoning or preventing introduction of many EU environmental directives:The inquiry is exploring the best approach to maintaining and improving water quality, as the UK transitions away from the European Water Framework Directive (WFD) post Brexit. Currently only 14% of UK rivers reach EU water quality standards.https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/lec/about-us/news/improving-water-quality-after-brexitI don’t have time to research the energy efficiency standards directives right now, but from from first-hand experience I can say that UK e.g. energy efficiency or ventilation requirements are largely voluntary which combined with self-building being practically non-existent results in vast majority of even new homes being worse than the EU counterparts.@rcz @andiias
(DIR) Post #AaER31zPYPr3v8lrGa by subpanel@mastodon.social
2023-09-28T16:47:25Z
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@rcz KPO?/genq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_process_outsourcing#In_Eastern_Europe
(DIR) Post #AaEU7sy8oqnhFqBQcS by rcz@101010.pl
2023-09-28T17:21:56Z
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@subpanel Polish component in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_EU
(DIR) Post #AaEUuXyTfIiaKYXnVY by subpanel@mastodon.social
2023-09-28T17:30:43Z
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@rcz Keep a secret journal (pl: diariusze) for your lawyer's discovery. Ship cheap spiral-bound notebooks and cheap black-inked ballpoint pens with each laptop into Poland and Hungary./srs