Post AZviz0pmDIlLQuC4ga by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AZvcUIWJo7eJaF3yvg by georgetakei@universeodon.com
2023-09-19T14:52:57Z
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Whatever it takes.https://www.comicsands.com/drew-barrymore-pauses-show-strikes-2665186560.html?utm_source=mastodon&utm_medium=infeed&utm_campaign=linkprogram
(DIR) Post #AZvcUJFh5PwfqyIDei by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T14:56:04Z
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@georgetakei So do we forgive her now or no?
(DIR) Post #AZvdWeYkw8O4TEtGgC by Bradcopter@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T15:07:43Z
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@freemo @georgetakei no. Until she does more than just words and "I'm sorry"s, and especially until the writers say so, we don't forgive.
(DIR) Post #AZvdgvbyOQSGFgIKdE by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T15:09:33Z
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@Bradcopter When you say "more than just words" doesnt canceling the show count as more than just words? so just to be clear, she was about to start her show up again which would have violated the strike, but ultimately decided not to. But even though she never actually followed through, never started the show up, and didnt actually violate the strike, we are just going to treat her like she did anyway? @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvgIqeDUqFPllYNOK by AGTMADCAT@infosec.exchange
2023-09-19T15:38:16Z
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@freemo @georgetakei We keep an eye on her and consider her as getting off with a warning this time. People need a little space to grow and learn from mistakes, but once they've used that space on a topic they need to be held to a higher standard going forward.
(DIR) Post #AZvh9GqfKNIa5WND0a by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T15:48:17Z
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@AGTMADCAT I thinkt hat is a fair perspective.While I myself dont think she did anything wrong even if she did host the show. I do understand you dont agree on that and I think your reasoned approach, given you perspective, is a fair one.@georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZviXc8pubUb212o0u by AGTMADCAT@infosec.exchange
2023-09-19T16:03:00Z
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@freemo @georgetakei I think if she'd crossed not one but two picket lines to put on her show that definitely would have been doing something wrong. Strikes only work when everyone stands unified. And strikes working is inherently good for society in a multitude of ways.
(DIR) Post #AZviz03Z6YCL1NdZXU by Bradcopter@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T15:12:17Z
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@freemo @georgetakei yes? She attempted to cross the picket line and only stopped when she was brow beaten. She needs to earn that forgiveness, not just say "awww ok sowwy" when she gets yelled at.
(DIR) Post #AZviz0pmDIlLQuC4ga by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T15:29:39Z
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@Bradcopter @freemo @georgetakei If you try to steal something and get caught, it's an attempt and under the law, an attempt is considered "the intent to commit an offense/crime".She was willing to break the strike and she backed off because she's been caught and forced to back off.The writers she's working with are on strike, she's a SAG-ATRA member and she wanted to break both pickets lines, so yeah, it's an offense she needs to atone for and no, "sorry" is not enough.
(DIR) Post #AZviz1e7C91px1kH9E by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T16:08:50Z
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@Foxmonsieur > If you try to steal something and get caught, it's an attempt and under the law, an attempt is considered "the intent to commit an offense/crime".Sure but thats not the anaology that is accurate to the situation.If i take something off a shelf and put it in my pocket, no that wont get you arrested. It is only once you actually walk out with the item you get arrested. The reason for that is there is reasonable doubt. You may or may not have been considering stealing it, but since we dont know there needs to be solid proof you had every intention of following through.I mean just think about it, you put something in your pocket, start to walk to the door. You see a sign that says "you will go to jail if you steal" when you see it your change your mind and pay for the item... Even if you tell the judge "yea i was going to steal it but i changed my mind last minute and didnt" you wont go to jailThats closer to what we have here... she never followed through, she never even attempted to other than stating her intent (in the sense that no one was brought back, no show filmed no work done... nothign she did was a violation).> She was willing to break the strike and she backed off because she's been caught and forced to back off.Caught? Forced? What are you on about... She **anounced** her intention, she wasnt "caught"... then when she hears the opinions of the people she announced it to she changed her mind.. She wasnt forced, she could have still filmed, she could have done whatever she wanted, no one forced her hand. Hearing peoples opinions and changing your mind as a result is **not** being forced. It is realizing a bad decision and choosing of your own free will not to follow through.> The writers she's working with are on strike, she's a SAG-ATRA member and she wanted to break both pickets lines, so yeah, it's an offense she needs to atone for and no, "sorry" is not enough.If she would have done it then i would have agreed. But **wanting** to do a thing that is wrong, and then not doing it, is hardly a reason to still find her guilty.One final comment though, I hope you realize that this mentality is counter productive. If you really get to the point where you treat someone as guilty simply for wanting to do a think and not doing it, all you are going to do is cause people to refuse to change their mind. I mean if someone wants to be a scab, even for an instant, why would they not be a scab if they cant take it back even if they want to.. it encoruages people to commit to hurtful choices since learning your choices are wrong wont matter since onlyt he act of considering it is enough to make you guilty.@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvjYxPGR0zJE9vsK8 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T16:15:20Z
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@AGTMADCAT I think if she’d crossed not one but two picket lines to put on her show that definitely would have been doing something wrong.I personally disagree it would be wrong, but only because I have not been convinced that the things the strike is fighting for is justified. But that is a tangent I didnt intend to get into with this question. Strikes only work when everyone stands unified.I think that is a valid and correct statement. And strikes working is inherently good for society in a multitude of ways.Depends on the strike. I would hope we agree that we only want strikes to work for good causes… strikes for causes that harm society we want to be unsuccessful no?While we disagree on if this particular strike is a good one or not I would hope we at least agree we would only want strikes to “work” when they are a morally good demand. Like if a bunch of people went on strike to protest hiring a black person at their work place… I think we can all agree we dont want that strike to work right?So yea id say no, strikes should not always work, and if they did that wouldnt be good for society. We want them to work when we all agree their for a good cause and we explicitly want them to fail when they dont.@georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvnN7neMmVxnrx69Y by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T16:58:03Z
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@freemo @Bradcopter @georgetakei Your heart is in the right place but I disagree with your logic.Nothing there happened by accident, she didn't do it unknowingly. Reasonable doubt is also not applicable here, wanting and planning to do wrong/illegal things is legally called an intent for this very reason.She didn't forget some chewing gums in her pockets, she took action to come back with her show. She openly spoke about coming back and announced it, knowing she'd break the pickets lines.
(DIR) Post #AZvnyiq3cUTnOM0R1s by AGTMADCAT@infosec.exchange
2023-09-19T17:04:51Z
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@freemo @georgetakei Do you have any concrete examples of strikes being used for bad causes and having any success? Ideally from the last 50-100 years. I'm not aware of any significant or successful labor actions which have been used to increase oppression. I think a significant part of the reason is that labor actions are fundamentally a tool of the oppressed or weaker classes against the rich and powerful. Racism is the opposite - it's a tool of the rich and powerful against an oppressed class. It's very difficult to set up a scenario where those two opposing interests align.I would argue, though, that in the current world people are generally feeling disenfranchised and powerless, and that any kind of successful organized action shows people that they can stand up for themselves against the rich and powerful. That can only increase democracy and social engagement. Even if you or I might find an individual demand in some industry we're not in strange or unreasonable, that's not for us to judge, that's between those workers and those companies. They have a right to some degree of democratic control of their workplace.
(DIR) Post #AZvpMxJJZ6NlBCoHqK by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T17:20:24Z
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@Foxmonsieur Nothing there happened by accident, she didn’t do it unknowingly.In my analogy I am not claiming she did it by accident or unknowingly.. Even if intentional, someone puts something in their pocket with every intention of stealing it. As long as if in the end they dont actually steal it. That they realize on their way to walk out that the consequences are too high and the last minute changes their mind and pays for it… guess what, they wont be arrested. Even though it wasnt by accident, it was intentional and theft was the intention, it still wouldnt get them in jail if in the end they didnt follow through and paid. Reasonable doubt is also not applicable here, wanting and planning to do wrong/illegal things is legally called an intent for this very reason.Well its a bit more complicated than all that. First off “intent” is not the legal term. I think you re confusing it with “attempt”. There are two criminal terms relevant to what we are discutting “Attempt Charges” and “Conspiracy Charges”. Attempt charges is what we are talking about not “intent”, easy mistake to make.Anyway the thing about Attempt Charges is simply planning the crime in and of itself is not, usually, considered enough to get Attempt Charges. As a general rule you have to do more than just make plans, usually you have to at least show you made some attempt to carry out those plans. Like if you planned a robbery on paper, that isnt enough, but if you actually went out and got the floor plans and bought a crow bar AND had the plans, then you would probably get stuck with Attempt Charges.All thats a bit moot, but worth touching on. With that said im not really sure if she would get Attempt charges or not in this analogy. But it plays to my point, if she had actually started paying for and preparing the neccesary elements to start the show, then yes, that would be enough. But if all she did was talk about her intent to start the show and then literally 2 days later changes her mind, no I doubt that would work. She didn’t forget some chewing gums in her pockets, she took action to come back with her show. She openly spoke about coming back and announced it, knowing she’d break the pickets lines.I mean i never claimed she forgot something or made a mistake. She intended to reopen the show, 2 days later she decided not to. It was literally a decision she made, did nothing to carry it out, and decided it was a bad idea 2 days later.Honestly nothing against you, but this is the very reason the left has been struggling lately. Because even when people ultimately do whats right (even if they had a momentary lapse of judgement) that is never enough. We attack even the people who ultimately choose to be our allys till there are no allys left. This has to stop.@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvpquwWvq9EWaRKHg by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T17:02:22Z
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@freemo @Bradcopter @georgetakei That being said, it's up to the writers working on the show she only host (she don't write most of her show), how to proceed with this lack of solidarity and respect for the workers creating value for her show.The line stands at respect, she didn't show any when she tried to come back and say it was a "news show" to bypass the strikes.She hasn't been decent to her peers, they have the right to say her to get f'ed if they feel so.
(DIR) Post #AZvpqvciOztMdQB12O by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T17:25:49Z
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@Foxmonsieur I think we agree that the writers, her staff, and anyone involved with her have the right to have any opinion they want of her actions, and act on it.But your statement doesnt seem to account for how the public can determine if the writers are the ones int he wrong (not saying they are)... but seems your suggesting the public should defer to the writers to decide how to respond to her actions... But if the general public always followed that game plan it seems like there would be no protection against protecting against strikes where the strikers demands are unreasonable.@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvqjHwPdq2jUPJKc4 by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T17:35:38Z
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@AGTMADCAT > Do you have any concrete examples of strikes being used for bad causes and having any success?None that were large enough to make the news or have citeable sources, and that i can actually remember the name of, just the ones ive seen personally, and certainly not all of them. That said i dont exactly stay up to date on all the strikes around the world either.That said I am sure there are plenty examples of strikers asking for unreasonable demands.> I'm not aware of any significant or successful labor actions which have been used to increase oppression.While I cant tell you any specific strikes, I certainly know of the general case where this happens all the time. It is a very common practice among unions, particularly labour unions, to force negotiatiosn in their favor that oppresses the non-union workers in the work place. For example when unions strike it is not uncommon to use as their demand a contractual requirement that they are only allowed to hire union members. This oppresses the right for employees to choose for themselves which union they wish to support, or form opposing unions that might fix issues the employee has with current unions. Taking away all current and future employees rights to choosing a union (or to choose not to be in one) is absolutely a very common example of strikes resulting in oppression.> I would argue, though, that in the current world people are generally feeling disenfranchised and powerless, and that any kind of successful organized action shows people that they can stand up for themselves against the rich and powerful.I'd say quite the opposite. People are feeling arogant and self-entitled. Anything right now that adds fuel to the fire and reinforces the bad behavior (like rioting, violence, etc) is the last thing we need. But I also think this is a really bad reason to support a strike, any strike.@georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvr2KSoUF60obXrwO by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T17:39:07Z
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@freemo @Bradcopter @georgetakei I'm sorry Sir, attempt and intent are two different things. Mens rea is the definition of criminal intent, it does not always lead to an attempt but you need it to be convicted of a crime : https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/criminal_intentNow, it's not up to the public to decide anything about this matter. It's a negociation and a battle between unions, their members and the companies. She's in an actors guild acting openly in solidarity with the writers guild, it's up to them.
(DIR) Post #AZvrtuna7naCr0oMWO by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T17:48:43Z
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@Foxmonsieur Criminal intent is an element of law, but not itself a charge.Attempt Charge is the charge (or one example of a charge) and one of the requirements to be guilty of an Attempt Charge is that criminal intent must be shown. We are splitting hairs here now, point is we were both right but talking about different things and the important part is I now know what you meant when you said "thats why they call it intent", I thought you meant that intent is a criminal charge, which its not, you just meant intent is an aspect of the law, and yea.> Now, it's not up to the public to decide anything about this matter. It's a negociation and a battle between unions, their members and the companies. She's in an actors guild acting openly in solidarity with the writers guild, it's up to them.Yea I agree with this, its between them to negotiate so its between them to decide how or if it effects that. sure. So if you are saying we shouldnt form opinions about her in regard to this and neither attack nor absolve her.. thens ure, ill go with that.@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvsAGxvTcMIEjRwQK by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T17:47:17Z
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@freemo @Bradcopter @georgetakei The public eye can vouch or not for whoever they want, but she had the intent of violating picket lines knowingly and tried to use a loophole to be categorized as a "News show" instead of her "Talk Show" category.That being showed publicly, the intent AND the attempt are proven by her actions, even if she backed off under the pressure of her peers or the channel. It took more than a week to convince her to stop, not two days, sorry but she fucked up big time.
(DIR) Post #AZvsAHmGSScmkr08sy by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T17:51:43Z
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@Foxmonsieur Legal judgements asidem, as its only an analogy and not the useful... the way i see it she basically said "I intend to cross this picket line in about a month".. then a week later said "I will not"In the end all i care about is that she didnt cross it. It seems silly to me to hold her to something she never did... but you are welcome to your opinion of course. Like i said, I dont really think the strike is justified at all, so we are both biased fromt he get go anyway.@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvssx4mGviza7xWfw by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T17:59:48Z
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@freemo @Bradcopter @georgetakei You're right we're splitting hair there (but it's very interesting).People can form an opinion and they can see this situation from one side or another and debate about it, it's their right. But when it comes to the case, what she's done should be considered in context and on a human scale too.I may be partial as a (foreign) writer, but on the human side I think she should be at least held in contempt of unions for her disrespect for her peers.
(DIR) Post #AZvt5flZwMB3f42pn6 by Foxmonsieur@mastodon.social
2023-09-19T18:02:08Z
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@freemo @Bradcopter @georgetakei I understand where you stand, we both have our lines defined by our lives and lines of work, and even if we agree to disagre, I wanted thank you for this very interesting debate. 🙂
(DIR) Post #AZvtl9iJV9nqPkIXmi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T18:09:35Z
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@Foxmonsieur > You're right we're splitting hair there (but it's very interesting).Yea might not have been the most relevant, but it was an interesting tangent.> People can form an opinion and they can see this situation from one side or another and debate about it, it's their right. But when it comes to the case, what she's done should be considered in context and on a human scale too.Sure Id agree with that.> I may be partial as a (foreign) writer, but on the human side I think she should be at least held in contempt of unions for her disrespect for her peers.I think it is fair to say that her actions showed that supporting the strike was not something she felt particularly compelled to do. But as you say the human side should be considered here, and I think people not only need to be cut some slack for bad choices they correct away from, but its also REALLY hard for most humans to admit they were wrong and change their mind as a response to public opinion too.. Personally I applaud her for being able to say she was wrong at all (even though i may not think she was all that wrong)@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZvto8wYp07gtVO2Ay by freemo@qoto.org
2023-09-19T18:10:10Z
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@Foxmonsieur You too, i enjoyed it and appreciate the mutual respect.@Bradcopter @georgetakei
(DIR) Post #AZwJdp5eNY5pETNUC8 by AGTMADCAT@infosec.exchange
2023-09-19T22:59:38Z
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@freemo @georgetakei If you consider that oppression then I don't think we have enough common ground for any meaningful conversation so we should leave it there. Have a good rest of your week.